Were you a driver in the 70's - 80's and remember the big change to unleaded gas...?
All the stories about how the cars were designed to run with lead to help cool the combustion chamber or somesuch, and that the hotter burning unleaded gas would damage motors not designed for unleaded? Remember all that?... I was too young to accurately remember the details, but I think that was the general drift of the era...

My first car (1986) was a '68 Mercury with a 390-v8. Thing would pull down a house and boil the rubber off the right rear tire
http://www.mercuryarchive.c...MercuryYachtDeck.jpg
heh... the photo doesn't do it justice... I was the biggest thing on the road. I digress.

Anyway, I remember that I used to have to buy some product called 'Instead-o-Lead'... to prevent the aforementioned troubles. Then it became harder to find. Then I just stopped putting it in... and never noticed any trouble.

FAST FORWARD to the '00s

Here we tool around in or hobby on cars that have motors built from basically '84-88. Even you motor swapped guys are generally running on '90's motors that only considered E-5/10 as a novelty or afterthought.

Now it is widespread. Now it is more common to find ethanol containing fuel than not. Just like my Instead-o-Lead.
So, other than the supposed (it may be fact, but since I am not a scientist... I am not making that claim) claim that E-10 has less potential energy, are there any detriments to exposing your Fiero to exclusive use of this fuel?

If not..., then why are they making a big point to have modern vehicle E-15 compliant, and they have green gas caps to idiot proof it?
I mean, it is only 5% more... so if special steps need to be taken to make a vehicle E-15 safe, it stands in my fuzzy head that E-10 may not be the greatest thing for an old gen motor w/o all that... right?

I did some digging first before typing this thread. Searched 'Ethanol' in Tech & GFC. I found one thread that was mildly useful, but it was more for marine applications, not whether E-10 was safe for '84-88 Fiero motors:
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/076073.html

The most significant and re-assuring post I read in that thread was from JScott:
"I managed to read a 1988 Fiero Owner's manual for the first time and it turns out that E10 is certified to be good for the Fiero. No issue with it in terms of damaging your engine. "

So that may sum it up.
But some of you may have been wondering the same thing I was as your filling up

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REMEMBER: stoplights synch'd for 35mph are also synch'd for 70mph.
(and for 140mph, now that I think about it.)

I have been running Eth blended fuels in my Fiero for years. I actually make a point to fill up with 10 or 15% blended before I go to Air-Care. (our emissions testing)

I know that extreme amounts will cause seals to dry out and can damage injectors. However You would have to use a lot to really create a problem. The most important thing to do is change your fuel filter more often as it removes buildup from your fuel tank and makes it out to the fuel filter. (I have heard people say it can damage fuel pumps over time, however I have no conclusive evidence of that)

All cars can run on E10 (which is the standard mixture....10% ethanol & 90% gas). It's when the percentage of ethanol increases that you will have issues (like E85). Colorado has been using oxygenated fuels for decades (MTBE originally, now ethanol) and I have not heard of nor experienced any problems as a result of this type of fuel.

I think you are confused about the green gas caps though.....they are for cars that car run on E85, not E15.

Ethanol is very corrosive and it will swell rubber. It will not harm the engine, but if you do not have stainless steel fuel delivery parts, then they will corrode. This includes the gas tank, fuel lines and injector o-rings. Alcohol is the prime comparison here.

Ethanol also has less heat energy output compared to gas and will need thirty percent more to be equivalent to gasoline. Ethanol is very clean burning and does not emitt ozone depleting HCs when 100 perecnt. The reason it is not 100 percent is that gasoline provides the flash point. Ethanol does not have as good a flash point as gasoline so it is very hard to ignite. In Illinois we have E85, it has a 105 octane rating and is generally thirty cents cheaper than gasoline. At that amount of concentration it becomes detrimental to the rubber and steel parts of the car's fuel system. Ten to fifteen percent is nominal in all grades here and has no impact on corrosion.

I think E85 is a great solution to gasoline. It is mostly manufactured here in the midwest, has a high octane rating, clean burning for the atmosphere and is mostly renewable. Once there is a suitable substitute for gasoline then it will be renewable energy.

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[This message has been edited by JazzMan (edited 04-21-2009).]

E10 is the only blend in town here, and I haven't noticed any problems from it. I run E85 in my truck and other than the lower fuel economy it's happy.

The fringe benefit is that E85 smells exactly like Vodka. If you get pulled over after a late night binge, "honestly officer I haven't been drinking, that's E85 you smell"

quote Originally posted by jscott1: The fringe benefit is that E85 smells exactly like Vodka.

And in the name of boring science, here I am to mention that Vodka is ethanol and water. So it smells the same because it is the same, plus a few extra combustables.

I remember reading about this way back in HotRod Magazine. They said that E85 is cleaner burning, cheaper, higher octane rating, cheaper, but with the rubber seal and corrosion problems as stated by others. But it also mentioned that gasoline has a lubricating property in it that the ethanol does not have and that the upper cylinders will pay the price for it with quicker ring wear and valve seat wear. I never seen the part 2 of that article, so maybe someone can fill us all in about this? Does that still hold true or not? They built a 351W 69 Mustang as a test horse for the E85 tests on older engines and the technologies of materials used for engines and their parts back in 99 I think it was.

Edit: Blake, usually you lost your valve seats if you didn't run an additive in your regular gasoline cars. The lead was used to "buffer" the hit between the valve and seats. If you look hard enough, you'll see people having to mill the leaded heads to install hardened valve seats in their heads to run unleaded gas. My friend had a 327 Chevelle lose 2 cylinders from that back in 98. And how long after the lead was dropped did this happen? Oh, the car was his dads before he got it.

[This message has been edited by AquaHusky (edited 01-23-2007).]

quote Originally posted by jscott1: The fringe benefit is that E85 smells exactly like Vodka.

You need to start drinking better Vodka.

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: Note, as produced using current practices it takes more fossil fuels to produce a gallon of ethanol than the energy it has in it, in other words, from end to end it's a net loss of energy. James

Correct. Ethanol has what is called a "negative EROEI" (energy return on energy invested).

Here we have "oxygenated fuel".....ie....10% ethanol in the winter months. It's mandatory for every retailer.

quote Originally posted by dobey: You need to start drinking better Vodka.

I don't actually drink it... I just do smell comparisons.

As for ethanol taking more energy to produce it that it returns...

That is true only if you factor in the energy of the Sun used to grow the corn, (free) and the energy it takes to ferment the corn into ethanol (free again) and the energy it takes to plant, fertilize and harvest the corn, (okay not free but you have to do that anyway if you are to grow corn)

The value of the energy in a gallon of ethanol is worth much more than the cost of the energy used to produce a gallon of ethanol.

Here's the white paper that explains it all:

http://www.ethanolinvestmen...take_more_energy.pdf

[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 01-24-2007).]

Conservation of energy tells us that energy is not created nor destroyed, but transfered. No energy is free as it would contradict this law. For an engine to perform work it requires energy and for the energy that makes the engine work requires energy to produce. Energy is recycled time and time again. The energy to make E85 comes from several sources. One being the sun. This energy is considered renewable for a long time since the sun will be burning for quite some time more.

Some more renewable sources are wind and water (these are true renewables because they are constant). This energy is derived from the gravitational pull from the moon. Dams and windmills are not acounted for when adding to the input of ethanol production. Nor is nuclear power for heat or electrical power. One has to remember the amount of energy it took to form crude to begin with. It just didn't appear under ground. The Earth will produce it once again, but that time is not on our side.

The summation of Jscott's references tells us that ethanol costs us more energy to produce than it's output energy is worth. This is true if you factor in all of the energy input versus the output (this is true for everything as some energy is lost to heat and other factors just like in the internal combustion engine). This would mean the sun, water, soil and the energy input from other sources. No one mentions the ENTIRE manufacturing source of gasoline. Once crude is drilled and used up, massive amounts of energy is required to make it again, more energy to produce than it makes. In comparison to ethanol fuels gasoline is a terrible waste of energy plus gasoline produces byproducts that are not desireable. I believe that Ethanol is going to be a major turning point in energy production. I just hope everyone looks at it's merit over the initial money investment it takes to equal gasoline's heat output. And don't buy hybrids!! They are doing NOTHING for the green planet. Just read David Frieburger's column two months ago in Hot Rod.

quote Originally posted by Fieroeddie: Ethanol is very corrosive and it will swell rubber. It will not harm the engine, but if you do not have stainless steel fuel delivery parts, then they will corrode. This includes the gas tank, fuel lines and injector o-rings.

I think you are confusing Ethanol with Methanol. Can you cite a reference for the claim that Ethanol is "very corrosive?"

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: Yep, 10-15% ethanol will have no more effect on our 18-24 year old cars than straight aging has and will. ... Note, as produced using current practices it takes more fossil fuels to produce a gallon of ethanol than the energy it has in it, in other words, from end to end it's a net loss of energy.

Correct on both points. (Skeptics please note that James said, "as produced using current practices.")

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 01-24-2007).]

quote Originally posted by mrfiero: I think you are confused about the green gas caps though.....they are for cars that car run on E85, not E15.

WOW!... this is a great thread. I have learned a lot... amazing what one can find out if they shut up and listen (well..., read )

Okay Mike... you are right. I am indeed confused (not uncommon). I just subtracted 15 from 100 to get the 85... so help me out here:

Is there such a thing as E-15? (if I am interpreting it correctly, that would be a blend of 15% ethanol & 85% gas, right?)
If that is true... then E-85, would be a blend of 85% ethanol, and 15% gasoline... (am I still right, I hope...)
and therefore those cars that can handle the 85% ethanol get the green gas cap? Tah-Dah!.... (observes light bulbs in head coming on).

SOooo, that leaves me with a different question:
Can a E-85 car run on un-ethanol gas w/o any problems?

Thanks for all the replies! I honestly appreciate the time taken to read and inform or offer an opinion.
If you observe your ratings go up (in the green direction, as if you needed to wonder)... that was me.
I sometimes see my ratings climb... and wonder 'where'd that come from?' So, I tell people now. No movement means you wuz already on the list.

[This message has been edited by blakeinspace (edited 01-24-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Marvin McInnis: I think you are confusing Ethanol with Methanol. Can you cite a reference for the claim that Ethanol is "very corrosive?"

Just type it in for a search for "E85" and "corrosive", I have prior knowledge of this so I cannot quote my original source. Ethanol, methanol and alcohol absorb atmsopheric water vapor. Alcohol itself is very very corrosive to non stainless parts. Synthetic rubbers like silicone can be used in place of the fuel line. Hard to find high pressure though.

Brazil has been using Ethanol_fuel for many years. Cleaner burning. Cheaper then petroleum. And it doesn't sponsor terrorism ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel

[This message has been edited by dmancheno (edited 01-24-2007).]

Alright all you smarties.

If a Fiero tank is for arguments sake 40 liters. I put in 1 liter of Pure Methanol Alcohol and then fill the remaining tank up with 39 liters of 10% Wheat Based Grain Ethyl Alch blended pump gas.

Would that cause an harm to the engine. The Methanol is about 2% of the total fuel.

Before you ask why, its because it lowers combustion chamber temps and reduces NOX readings when going through emissions testing. This is for guys that are running an aftermarket chip that deletes the EGR function. Or people that are running higher than normal compression ratios. Or just plain have a fault in there EGR system. From what I understand, it will harm injectors over time, and dry out seals. But for short periods, once a year it should not harm anything.
This is a cut and past from the local gas station site.

Husky’s Mother Nature’s Fuel is a clean burning fuel made of 10 percent ethanol and 90 percent gasoline. An alcohol-based product, Husky’s ethanol is made from primarily feed wheat. Carbohydrate (starch) in the grain is converted to ethanol in a fermentation and distillation process similar to making beer.

When blended with gasoline, ethanol boosts engine performance and reduces tailpipe emissions. Depending on the vehicle’s age, owner’s driving habits, driving conditions and other factors, ethanol-blended gasoline can reduce carbon monoxide emissions up to 25 percent. Compared to conventional gasoline, Mother Nature’s Fuel can also reduce greenhouse gas emissions associated with production, transportation and use of fuel in vehicles. Currently, Husky markets E85 ethanol-blended gasoline to government fleets across Western Canada.

End Copy


So what do you have to say about Methyl Alcohol when used in a fuel tank.

quote Originally posted by AquaHusky: Edit: Blake, usually you lost your valve seats if you didn't run an additive in your regular gasoline cars. The lead was used to "buffer" the hit between the valve and seats. If you look hard enough, you'll see people having to mill the leaded heads to install hardened valve seats in their heads to run unleaded gas. My friend had a 327 Chevelle lose 2 cylinders from that back in 98. And how long after the lead was dropped did this happen? Oh, the car was his dads before he got it.

YES! That is what I was thinking! It had been so long, I had forgotten what the big deal was with leaded vs. unleaded!
So it took your buddy about 15-20 years of unleaded to kill the seats. Not too bad. By that time, I bet everyone involved with that motor was looking for an excuse to rebuild it!
"Honey, the motor died, I just need to get some head work done... but while I am in there... I should probably bore the block out a bit, which will require new pistons, which will..." Ah... I love being techinical with the wife.

Thank you. It was driving me crazy yesterday trying to remember.

quote Originally posted by Fieroeddie: The summation of Jscott's references tells us that ethanol costs us more energy to produce than it's output energy is worth.

The paper I referenced was refuting the idea that Ethanol costs more to produce than it's energy output is worth. The Free energy from the Sun should not be counted in the equation. When you factor in the energy it takes to drill and refine oil, then transport it, you might come to a better conclustion that Ethanol is a good source of energy.

Even if it did take more energy to create, transport and dispense Ethanol than you get back in energy that doesn't automatically make it a bad thing. You still need energy that you can easily transport, store and consume in an automobile. It's the value of that fuel that's important. Simple economics tells you that companies would not go to all the trouble to sell a fuel that cost them more to make than the selling price. Only the government can afford to do that. I promise you that the cars driving on the Moon used energy that cost WAY more to transport it there than the value of that energy.

quote Originally posted by blakeinspace: and therefore those cars that can handle the 85% ethanol get the green gas cap? Tah-Dah!.... SOooo, that leaves me with a different question: Can a E-85 car run on un-ethanol gas w/o any problems?

Actually the E85 gas caps are Yellow. My truck is rated as a Flexfuel vehicle. It can run on anything from E0 (pure gasoline) up to E85 (85% ethanol) and any combination of the two.

Also factor in the amount of fertilizer (made from natural gas derivatives) that was necessary to grow the corn in sufficient quantities. Plus the fuel used in the farming process. Ethanol production is still quite reliant upon large inputs of fossil fuels.

At some point we will also have to contend with shrinking groundwater supplies if we are to consider ethanol to be a viable alternative to gasoline on a large scale. Takes a lot of water to grow these crops....particularly in sufficient quantities to keep both our tanks full and our appetite for nachos satiated. Don't forget how important nachos are.

Back to Blake's original question....some of use are indeed old enough to remember "gasahol". And whether we realize it or not, a lot of us are still using it....under it's various incarnations. And it won't hurt your Fiero in the least.

A lot of our rental fleet is now E85 compliant....but they run just fine on straight gasoline.

[This message has been edited by Frizlefrak (edited 01-24-2007).]

We've had some form of Ethanol in gas in Ontario since the '50's.

I can say I've never heard any legitimate gripe over the fuel including the folks who listen to the competitors to Sunoco who try to diss the product. Sunoco, the main Ethanol gas provider in Canada has been fueling more hotrods and muscle cars than any other fuel for the last 20 years. Their 94 Octane contains at least 10% Ethanol, and thank God for it. It helps emissions and prevents icing up in your fuel lines. It is true however, that Ethanol does not give quite as good fuel consumption figures.

Arn

quote From the 1987 Fiero Owner's Manual: You may use properly blended fuels containing 10 percent or less ethanol (ethyl or grain alcohol) and still be covered by the New Vehicle and Emission Control Systems Warranties. (section 2, page 5)

If Pontiac figured that it wouldn't mess with the fuel systems to the point where it was still in the warranty, I think it is still safe for use in our cars.

quote Originally posted by jscott1: The paper I referenced was refuting the idea that Ethanol costs more to produce than it's energy output is worth. The Free energy from the Sun should not be counted in the equation. When you factor in the energy it takes to drill and refine oil, then transport it, you might come to a better conclustion that Ethanol is a good source of energy. Even if it did take more energy to create, transport and dispense Ethanol than you get back in energy that doesn't automatically make it a bad thing. You still need energy that you can easily transport, store and consume in an automobile. It's the value of that fuel that's important. Simple economics tells you that companies would not go to all the trouble to sell a fuel that cost them more to make than the selling price. Only the government can afford to do that. I promise you that the cars driving on the Moon used energy that cost WAY more to transport it there than the value of that energy.

I know, you need to read my post better. The summation is true, you will never gain 100 percent energy put forth back. It is lost in other energy transfers. This pertains to gasoline as well, however, people are not putting that into account. That is what the author is trying to say.

They've been selling ethanol around my area for over 25 years. Millions of drivers have used it exclusively without ill effect. In all those years, there have been no cases of alcohol screwing up a fuel system or engine. Adding ethanol usually gives you an extra point in octane.... 87 octane gas with 10% ethanol becomes 88 octane.

From my 1988 Fiero Owner's manual (Section 2-4)

ETHANOL

You may use properly blended fuels containing 10 percent or
less ethanol (ethyl or grain alcohol) and still be covered by the
New Vehicle and Emission Control Systems Warranties.

quote Originally posted by jscott1: The fringe benefit is that E85 smells exactly like Vodka. If you get pulled over after a late night binge, "honestly officer I haven't been drinking, that's E85 you smell"

And we Fiero owners in Texas all know that Jon needs NO help in getting pulled over by the Po-Po!

quote Originally posted by blakeinspace: And we Fiero owners in Texas all know that Jon needs NO help in getting pulled over by the Po-Po!

No Kidding, imagine if I were driving a blacked out Formula with illegal tint and no front tag!

quote Originally posted by JScott: "No Kidding, imagine if I were driving a blacked out Formula with illegal tint and no front tag!"

You know me... I'm white and nerdy...,

oops, I mean... I'm rollin' dirty...

[This message has been edited by blakeinspace (edited 01-26-2007).]

The problem with automotive writers is that they want to create issues to sell copy.

Ethanol is just a non-story to me, other than recommending it for winter use. It has been in so many of my cars with no negative affects at all, any criticism is just bunk to me.

As for the cost to create the fuel, there is a cost to create every fuel. Now I do have one alternative, just set up a still in the garage and start producing alcohol. Add a quart or two every week, and run your own experiment. (just kidding)

Arn

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[This message has been edited by JazzMan (edited 04-21-2009).]

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: The ultimate problem with ethanol as it's currently produced is that the amount of fossil fuel energy it takes to make it exceeds the amount of energy it has once delivered to the final user. The amount of miles a person could drive on ethanol is less than the amount of miles they could drive on the fossil fuels that go into making that ethanol. James

I'm not convinced this is true. There was the one report by some Harvard study that has been quoted so many times people believe it's true. Many many others dispute this conclusion.

And whoever said energy can't be created or destroyed is partially correct. When we burn fuel in our cars we are not destroying it, but we are converting it into heat. And only a small fraction of that heat can be turned into usefull energy, the rest is just wasted. So eventually all the useful energy in the universe will be useless heat. This is known as the "heat death of the universe" phenomenon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...eath_of_the_universe

Fiero engines can handle 10% ethanol fuel without a problem. You'll get slightly less power from this mix, and you'll also get slightly less miles per gallon. Upside is that it'll increase the fuel's octane.

Using higher percentages of ethanol is not recommended. The ECM is calibrated to gasoline; it can compensate (using feedback from the O2 sensor) for small amounts of ethanol, but larger amounts will result in lean mixtures. In any event, the Fiero fuel injectors aren't capable of flowing enough ethanol to support full throttle operation no matter how you reprogram the ECM.

Methanol is a different story - it forms corrosive compounds with water and will eat up soft metal parts and seals in the fuel system. A little might be OK in a V6, but the 4-cylinder engines can't tolerate it at all.

[This message has been edited by Whuffo (edited 01-30-2007).]

So, what modifications do we need to do to our engines (and fuel systems) to run them on E85 then?

( <--- looks around devilishly)

Well, first you need a different color gas cap...

quote Originally posted by PerKr: So, what modifications do we need to do to our engines (and fuel systems) to run them on E85 then?

New fuel system. New tank, all new lines, probably new injectors, additional hardware to tell what the mix of Ethanol is in the gas and new electronics to tune the engine to run on the appropriate mix.

It's not as simple as tuning for E85, because a flex fuel vehicle can run on regular unleaded or E85, so the actual mix in the tank could be anywhere from E85 to E0, and the tuning required will be different for all mixtures.

That and having to replace virtually every single part of the fuel system seems to be a bit of a deal breaker for me. Others have said they want to try it, but since ethanol is corrosive to the rubber and some metals used in a normal gas-only fuel system, I won't try it.

I have to wonder what the Whaling Industry had to say when people were changing over to kerosene?

I just watched a news cast dealing with the upcomming Indy car race schedualed for 'The Iowa Speedway'.
Indy Cars are going to be running 100% ethanol from here on out. Several drivers said that they will be getting better milage and more power by running 100% ethanol. OK they aren't rocket surgeons, and Indy Car engines aren't exactly what you are using as a daily driver. But why would a spokesperson for a racing team say something like this? Why put their neck out? Something tells me they have some hard data to back this up.

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Ol' Paint, 88 Base coupe auto.
Turning white on top, like owner.
Leaks a little, like owner.
Doesn't smoke, unlike owner