Has anyone ever considered (or heard of someone considering) a Quad-4 swap? The 1996 2.4 (LD9) or the 2.3 (LGO) introduced in 1993 were both very impressive 4 cylinders. They were common in the Grand Ams and the Olds Cutlass and Achieva. Since those are FWD cars, I was wondering if the swap would be possible (considering a 2M4 donor).
Those are the Twin Cams, and they are not as impressive as the real Quad 4s.
But, yes, Quad 4s are routine swap, although they dont get as much attention as the V6's.
What real quad-4 are you talking about? And, while I'd much rather drop a 3800SC into my car, I must remind myself this is a DD, and also, a 4 cyl to begin with. So, instead of finding a 2M6 donor and dropping the 3.4 in my shed in, I figure why not try to upgrade the 2M4? Ideally, I'd love to see an 1.9 or 2.2 Ecotec swap - but being that those engines are so expensive, it would be out of my price range anyway.
Besides, the Quad-4 (DOHC) engines claim 170-180HP! -That's quite a jump from the 96HP Duke!
I have a 1991 Quad 4 HO engine in my Fiero. Not a bad swap, I get the same or better fuel mileage than my 84 2.5L, and alot more power. The only clearance issue with the engine is its height, the DOHC head is taller than a 2.5L head. I lowered my engine and tranny a few inches to clear the decklid, the only part that hits is the timing chain cover on the decklid frame.
As for the swap, it is a less performed one, and no kit or anything is available for it. You have to make custom engine mounts, custom wiring, and since the Quad 4 has a different bellhousing than the Fiero, you need to use Fiero V6 getrac parts, like cables, clutch slave, etc... and Rodney Dickmans FWD tranny conversion kit. Or modify your own cables to work. The Quad 4 Getrac is almost identical to a Fiero Getrac (87-88), but with a different bellhousing, FWD shift parts, and an internal clutch arm.
The 180HP Quad 4's are the HO's made from 1989 to 1992, then they started dropping off in power. There is also a LO 160HP version available, which is more common. All HO Quad 4's came with a standard tranny, lightened flywheel 32lb injectors, under drive pulleys, higher compression pistons, different exhaust and intake manifolds (on earlier models, later LO engines got HO manifolds), higher lift cams, and different ECM tuning. A W41 Quad 4 is the same a a HO, but with longer duration cams and a higher rev limiter, which bumped power to 190HP.
Here is what a Quad 4 looks like in the back of a Fiero:
For sure! The Quad 4 is one of the least service friendly engines on the planet.
+1 If you do find one count on replacing the head gasket right off the bat. They are prone to over-heating once they get some miles. A few years ago I went for a ride in Matt's (fierobsessed) '84 Indy with a HO Quad 4, and it was a blast. Lots of power, high-revving and great gas mileage. But after riding in a 3800 s/c'd Fiero, there's no other engine I'd want.
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09:32 PM
Jun 27th, 2007
befarrer Member
Posts: 1962 From: Westlock, Alberta, CANADA Registered: Aug 2002
For sure! The Quad 4 is one of the least service friendly engines on the planet.
The only thing that is hard to replace on a Quad 4, or at least one in a Fiero is the water pump, and maybe the starter (havent removed mine)
The plugs are a 3 minute job, for all 4, the serpintine belt is a 30 second job, alternator replacement is a 45 minute job, I replaced the oil pump in 1 hour, all I had to remove was a bracket that was held on by the oil pan bolts. Exhaust manifold is about a 30 minute job. I think you can even replace the timing chain and gears without dropping the enigne 1", which means head removal can be done with the engine in the car. All sensors are pretty easy to get to. My old engine had 336,000KM on it, didnt burn oil. But I spun a rod bearing one evening on the highway, drove 60KM home at 100KM/h, I think I sucked up air in the oil pump.
It is 100X easier to work on that that northstar 5 speed I am working on.
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03:18 PM
PFF
System Bot
bkfly1 Member
Posts: 138 From: Poplar Grove, IL, USA Registered: Oct 2002
Why go through all that effort to build one, or find one to buy? Why not just drop down $20 for a 1 in 500 chance to win a very nicely done Quad 4 powered Fiero!? Not interested in another Fiero? No problem...2nd prize is $1000 cash....3rd prize is a set of Mr. Mikes leather seats.
For complete details see the Midwest Fiero Clubs web site at http://www.fieros.us.
------------------ 86 GT 5-speed, 88 Coupe Auto Webmaster, NIFE www.fierofocus.com
I am swapping a '91HO quad4 into my '86 GT right now. I just got the engine torn down for the build up. I am shooting for 200 whp. As far as I have found I think mine will be the only GT with quad power on here, there is a few others that are notchbacks. A good place to go for info on the quad 4 and twin cam engines is quad4forums.com.
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12:06 AM
turbo86se Member
Posts: 2098 From: Carroll Valley, PA Registered: Oct 1999
I am swapping a '91HO quad4 into my '86 GT right now. I just got the engine torn down for the build up. I am shooting for 200 whp. As far as I have found I think mine will be the only GT with quad power on here, there is a few others that are notchbacks. A good place to go for info on the quad 4 and twin cam engines is quad4forums.com.
Cool! Most people don't go from a V6 down to 4-cyl, even tho it has more hp! Any pics? I'd love to see your project!
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12:12 AM
crytical point Member
Posts: 569 From: sanford FL USA Registered: Feb 2006
I love Quad 4s! I had one in a Beretta and it was an absolute blast to rev up. I wanted to put one in my Indy but somehow ended up just doing a hotter duke, which so far hasn't worked out so well, so I may rethink the Q4.
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12:25 PM
LAMBO Member
Posts: 1677 From: Lucas, Iowa, USA Registered: May 2000
Why wouldnt you consider an Ecotec? Just as much work as a Quad 4 but twice the motor. Off the bat its more powerful, more reliable and cheaper. I got mine with 40k on it with a transmission the sub-cradle for $300 bucks. The Ecotec can be way more powerful than a 3800sc. With the gas mpg of a 4 cylinder. I recent took a 426 mile trip to my g-parents. Going there I ran my ecotec at an average of 1800-2200rpms at an average speed of 65mph. Over 213 miles I used 4.9 gallons. Do the math on that one. With Megasquirt I ran an Air/Fuel Ratio of 17:1 the whole trip which probably helped alot. I havent got to the track or dyno yet but I would put money on it that it will run 14s, sure its not as fast as a 3800 but it doesnt have any problem getting to over 260 horses.
So yeah Ecotec is the way to go.
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12:05 AM
befarrer Member
Posts: 1962 From: Westlock, Alberta, CANADA Registered: Aug 2002
A stock, naturally aspirated Ecotech, has less power than a Quad 4, a stock 2.2L Ecotech has 140HP, and 150lb/ft of torque, a stock LO Quad 4 has 160HP, and 150lb ft torque, a stock HO Quad 4 has 170-180HP, and 160lb ft torque, and a W41 Quad 4 has 190HP and 160lb/ft torque. The relative 2.4L Twin cam, has 150HP, and 150lb/ft torque.
A big difference in the Ecotech and Quad 4 is wiring, the Quad 4 is simple compared to an ecotech, I dont know about megasquirt, but if you plan on using stock electronics, the Quad 4 and its late 80's electronics fits the fiero nicely.
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01:21 AM
Automoda Member
Posts: 318 From: Bluffdale, Utah, USA Registered: Sep 2002
But keep in mind, the Quad4 is OBD1 so the computer doesn't control everything and a lot of the stock parts of the Fiero (gauges, ignition, etc) can be kept.
As opposed to the Ecotec, which requires the donor cars gauges, ignition, ECM, and many other parts.
The Ecotec does have a larger aftermarket and can produce massive power, but it is all the swappers choice.
I chose the Twincam because they are plentiful, and a good median between the Quad4 and Ecotec. Earlier OBDII, less complicated wiring. GM makes a supercharger for it. There is the 'secret cam' swap for 10HP. And it has not been done before (as far as I know), so it is one of a kind.
Ive dynoed 4 various ecotec powered cars at my college all put about 135-143hp to the wheels bone stock. Besides the W41, I would take an Ecotec anyday over a Quad 4, they are becoming obsolete.
Gauges? Speedo works with the stock fiero tranny I am using. Tach, need an adapter but I am running my Ignition with a 93 OBD1 Cavailer DIS I still get a signal but I am using the v6 tach which reads low compared to actual RPMs. Water Temp, needs a second sensor put into the block as Megasquirt is a hog and gets mad if you try to run the gauge and computer off the same sensor. Fuel gauge nothing changed. Im using Sunpro gauges for the others since the ecotec runs close to 100psi oil at 1500rpms.
Besides you have massive aftermarket adders to the ecotec it is just built like a tank. The design isnt perfect but it is much much closer than the LD9 and Quad4 motors. (BTW I loved em before the ecotec)
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12:52 PM
Jul 22nd, 2007
FierOmar Member
Posts: 1646 From: Glendale, California, USA Registered: Dec 2001
But keep in mind, the Quad4 is OBD1 so the computer doesn't control everything and a lot of the stock parts of the Fiero (gauges, ignition, etc) can be kept.
As opposed to the Ecotec, which requires the donor cars gauges, ignition, ECM, and many other parts.
The Ecotec does have a larger aftermarket and can produce massive power, but it is all the swappers choice.
I chose the Twincam because they are plentiful, and a good median between the Quad4 and Ecotec. Earlier OBDII, less complicated wiring. GM makes a supercharger for it. There is the 'secret cam' swap for 10HP. And it has not been done before (as far as I know), so it is one of a kind.
I believe that Roto Faze in Torrance, California offers a cam driven distributor for the Ecotec and the Quad 4. Should solve some of the OBD1 vs. OBDII issues.
does the quad 4 proform better than the 2.8. I have a chance to get one an want to know
a few years ago i was on the racetrack with standard (forum member). he has a quad 4 in an 88 coupe and i had an 87 GT. his car ran real well and was either as quick or quicker than mine. when the 2.8 runs out of breath, the quad keeps going. but performance is around the same from what i noticed. BUT, the quad gets better gas milage. i thinjk he's gotten over 40 with his.
Something to think about; there is a free 10hp to the Ecotecs by removing the balance shafts and replacing them with aluminum (I think its aluminum, do go quoting me though ) tubes. The Twin Cam balance shafts can also likely be replaced for free power.
Never knew that they had a supercharger kit for them. Its $3k though.
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10:22 PM
Oct 30th, 2008
85duke Member
Posts: 536 From: Sacramento,CA Registered: Aug 2008
ok the real quad was a 2.3 and an HO quad came with 180HP stock as for a TC (twin cam) can with 150HP
the best bet is to put a 086 (HO head) on a 96-97 2.4 block and it should make 200HP no prob you can use the HO exhaust cam but not the HO intake cam unless you do one of two things. 1:have the intake cam cut for a hex drive or, the easy way the best way its 2:just put the 086,and both of the 2.3 cam towers on it with the belt drive ps pump.
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07:19 PM
Nov 25th, 2008
Quad GT Member
Posts: 1624 From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Registered: Aug 2002
And for the record I believe I was the first on this forum to have a Quad H.O. in my Fiero.
It was installed in 1990 and I got the kit from IRM, they were the first ones to offer this kit. It came with the engine mounts,wiring harness,exhaust [yes exhaust with Ansa tips] 5 speed cables and a manual how to do it step by step.
The Quad I got had 6 000 km on it.........as of now it has 280 000 service free kilometers and no oil or head gasket problems.
I installed a 3 core rad and oil cooler.
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06:57 PM
m0sh_man Member
Posts: 8460 From: south charleston WV 25309 Registered: Feb 2002
As fieroangel mentioned like a year ago, i hvae a quad4 fiero,
mines a 1988 coupe 2.3L 5 speed quad4, donor motor is from a 1990 olds 442 (a rare car actually) my quad4 is a BLAST to drive, and ive only put about 10 miles on it since it needs an alignment, paintjob, and oh yea, it needs insurance and registration too!
the sound of the quad4 fiero is like nothing ive ever heard.
Originally posted by m0sh_man: [snip] 2.3L 5 speed quad4, donor motor is from a 1990 olds 442 (a rare car actually) matthew
quote
Originally posted by befarrer: [snip] A W41 Quad 4 is the same a a HO, but with longer duration cams and a higher rev limiter, which bumped power to 190HP.
I found one of these in a junkyard. 1991 Olds Cutlass (Calais) 442, W41, only 204 made. Verified by the option code plate. I wanted to buy the whole car, but they wouldn't sell it. I intended to go back and get the engine/trans/harness/computer, but the money ended up needing to go somewhere else. When I finally went back to get them, the car was gone...
-fh
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11:12 AM
litespd Member
Posts: 8128 From: No where you want to be Registered: Aug 99
a few years ago i was on the racetrack with standard (forum member). he has a quad 4 in an 88 coupe and i had an 87 GT. his car ran real well and was either as quick or quicker than mine. when the 2.8 runs out of breath, the quad keeps going. but performance is around the same from what i noticed. BUT, the quad gets better gas milage. i thinjk he's gotten over 40 with his.
Check with mrfiero here on PFF...I think he now owns Standard's car.
[This message has been edited by litespd (edited 11-26-2008).]
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02:42 PM
Erik Member
Posts: 5625 From: Des Moines, Iowa Registered: Jul 2002
I found one of these in a junkyard. 1991 Olds Cutlass (Calais) 442, W41, only 204 made. Verified by the option code plate. I wanted to buy the whole car, but they wouldn't sell it. I intended to go back and get the engine/trans/harness/computer, but the money ended up needing to go somewhere else. When I finally went back to get them, the car was gone...
-fh
I had one , sold the engine and trans to a forum member Quad4GT if I recall the name correctly. That car was fun ..had a 7200rpm rev 195hp ..stock HO have 6800 rev limit and 180hp
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03:40 PM
fastblack Member
Posts: 3696 From: Riceville, IA Registered: Nov 2003
Why wouldnt you consider an Ecotec? Just as much work as a Quad 4 but twice the motor. ..... So yeah Ecotec is the way to go.
depending on the ecotec you get. the ecotec in my saturn had NOTHING on the HO Quad 4 in my beretta. now the saturn isn't the HO version or anything but i find it a bit lacking in the power department. also, the beretta got better gas mileage and it was 12 years older. if you are looking into Quad 4's, 1992 is the year to look for, no later. also, i'm not 100% sure if they are still around but IIRC www.mantapart.com had a lot of parts for this motor.
------------------ 1986 Fiero GT 2000 Chevrolet Blazer ZR2 2004 Saturn Ion '2'
" I guess I've learned that there's more to life than racing, but not much more." -Paul Menard
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04:07 PM
Doug85GT Member
Posts: 9825 From: Sacramento CA USA Registered: May 2003
I was considering doing a Quad 4 swap but settled on a 3.4 DOHC swap instead. The thing that has always amazed me is how hp and torque work to get a car moving. The two engine swaps use the same body, frame and transmissions yet there is a big difference in performance.
A HO Quad 4 swap will get you 180-190 hp 160 ft-lb torque. A 3.4 DOHC swap is 210 hp 220 ft-lb torque. A quad-4 car typically runs the 1/4 mile in mid 15's to low 16's which is close to the stock 2.8. A 3.4 DOHC swap on the other hand will get most cars into the mid 14's and sometimes the high 13's.
20 hp and 60 ft-lbs of torque makes a big difference in our cars even though the 3.4 DOHC is 100# heavier than a quad-4.
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04:43 PM
Quad GT Member
Posts: 1624 From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Registered: Aug 2002
Hey erik! You are correct I baught your W41 and its a fantastic engine......its currently sitting in my garage all rebuilt and done up......cant wait till after New Year to install it in my Gt and drive it next spring.
I don't know about the convenience or cost of it all, but the quad 4 is no dog, either.......
The engine of the Aerotech I was producing about 850 horsepower when A.J. Foyt set the record pace at Fort Stockton Test Center in Texas. Two versions were built: a long tail (LT) with twin turbos, and a short tail (ST) that ran a single turbocharger. The LT reached a peak of 278 miles per hour in one direction, 257 the other way, for an official average of 267.399 mph in the "flying mile."
The Oldsmobile Aerotech concept car could run through the quarter-mile trap in around 8.1 seconds, reaching 181 miles an hour. Chief engineer Ted Louckes noted that Aerotech I was designed around the Quad 4 engine, to demonstrate its capability "in an extreme testing environment" -- and no one could deny that 267 miles an hour was extreme.
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08:40 PM
fieroboom Member
Posts: 2132 From: Hayden, AL (BFE) Registered: Oct 2008
I haven't read every single post in this thread, so forgive me if I'm re-iterating someone's info, but I just wanted to clarify the differences in the Quad-4 engines, because I was considering this at one time and did a LOT of research on it.
The most desired Quad-4 is the W41, because it has the highest power output @ 190hp ('91-92) and 185hp in '93. This engine was only used in the '91 Oldsmobile 442 and the '92-93 Oldsmobile Achieva SCX. Although this is the highest output Quad-4, there are a few caveats: - They are very hard to find, and even harder to find in decent condition. This can be good or bad, depending on your view of the nostalgia and rarity... - Even with having the highest output, it's rated hp is only about 50hp more than the Fiero's L44 V6... Even with the weight differential, it's not really worth it (IMHO), unless you're one of those guys that just happens to have a W41 sitting around unused, and in good condition. From your 85hp Iron Duke to a W41 might be worth it, but then again, see above for finding one in good condition.
The LG0 also mentioned in the first post weighs in @ 180hp ('89-92) and 175hp ('93-94) and is slightly less powerful than the W41. Again, IMHO, the gain isn't worth the research, cost, and labor.
The LD9 mentioned in the first post was rated @ 150hp... Obviously only a 10hp gain. You could do that with the addition of a supercharger, or maybe even a port, polish, cold air intake, and ram air.
Now, if you're really wanting an impressive 4 banger, I would suggest blazing the trail and doing some research on the '04-05 Dodge Neon SRT-4 engines. They are turbocharged (from the factory), and rated @ 230hp / 250 ft/lbs of torque. Now you're looking at a 4cyl that might hop down in the 13's-14's on the 1/4 mile. The Neon SRT-4 has a curb weight of 2,970 lbs, which is slightly heavier than the heaviest Fiero produced, AFAIK. Your '85 Fiero 2m4 has a reported curb weight of 2,505 lbs... Does anyone see where I'm going with this...? I realize it's not a GM engine, but it is american made, and damn, 230hp 4cyl and 400 lbs lighter than it's donor car? I speculate that you would run solid 13's at the track, since various magazines reported the Neon SRT-4 running 13.8-14.2 @ 98-103mph. If you decide to go this route, please PM me ASAP when you start on it, because I'll be right on your heels... I've got to build my concept first tho...
I haven't read every single post in this thread, so forgive me if I'm re-iterating someone's info, but I just wanted to clarify the differences in the Quad-4 engines, because I was considering this at one time and did a LOT of research on it.
The most desired Quad-4 is the W41, because it has the highest power output @ 190hp ('91-92) and 185hp in '93. This engine was only used in the '91 Oldsmobile 442 and the '92-93 Oldsmobile Achieva SCX. Although this is the highest output Quad-4, there are a few caveats: - They are very hard to find, and even harder to find in decent condition. This can be good or bad, depending on your view of the nostalgia and rarity... - Even with having the highest output, it's rated hp is only about 50hp more than the Fiero's L44 V6... Even with the weight differential, it's not really worth it (IMHO), unless you're one of those guys that just happens to have a W41 sitting around unused, and in good condition. From your 85hp Iron Duke to a W41 might be worth it, but then again, see above for finding one in good condition.
The LG0 also mentioned in the first post weighs in @ 180hp ('89-92) and 175hp ('93-94) and is slightly less powerful than the W41. Again, IMHO, the gain isn't worth the research, cost, and labor.
The LD9 mentioned in the first post was rated @ 150hp... Obviously only a 10hp gain. You could do that with the addition of a supercharger, or maybe even a port, polish, cold air intake, and ram air.
Now, if you're really wanting an impressive 4 banger, I would suggest blazing the trail and doing some research on the '04-05 Dodge Neon SRT-4 engines. They are turbocharged (from the factory), and rated @ 230hp / 250 ft/lbs of torque. Now you're looking at a 4cyl that might hop down in the 13's-14's on the 1/4 mile. The Neon SRT-4 has a curb weight of 2,970 lbs, which is slightly heavier than the heaviest Fiero produced, AFAIK. Your '85 Fiero 2m4 has a reported curb weight of 2,505 lbs... Does anyone see where I'm going with this...? I realize it's not a GM engine, but it is american made, and damn, 230hp 4cyl and 400 lbs lighter than it's donor car? I speculate that you would run solid 13's at the track, since various magazines reported the Neon SRT-4 running 13.8-14.2 @ 98-103mph. If you decide to go this route, please PM me ASAP when you start on it, because I'll be right on your heels... I've got to build my concept first tho...
ehh.. if i where to do a 4cyl swap from another manufacture i'de most likely do a toyota 3s-gte or even a nice 5s-ge hybrid OR a nice h22a or even a hopped up b18... ide put honda parts on my car before i would a dodge :P
) tubes. The Twin Cam balance shafts can also likely be replaced for free power.
I've got to build my concept first tho...
