quote Originally posted by toddshotrods: Can't wait to see what that means

Can't find an engine at the right angle and haven't found a trunk yet and a few other things like paint but here's a start...
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[This message has been edited by Gokart Mozart (edited 08-20-2007).]

quote Originally posted by toddshotrods: Help me think. Am I forgetting or missing anything?

Well, you know what you have on hand and the level of your fabrication skills, how much detail you want to get into/how retro you want to be, and the driving comfort level you'll be satisfied with in the end, so the dollar figure is pretty much up to you... with little to no farming out and a lot of materials already available, some artful scrounging and fabricating and careful purchasing of "extras", I can see you initially at +/- 15% of that mark...

But- that figure allows nothing for your time or skills.

As far as weight, well.... I think it will creep up on you. All the little stuff adds up. But even at +20% of your guesstimate you're still only talking #1200.

Keep in mind, I've never done anything like this in my life, so my estimations mean jack.

Oh, and GM- that photoshop of the concept, even minus engine and trunk, is awesome. The cowl looks a trifle long, the nose needs to be closed up, and the divider between the seats isn't in the model, but man- it looks like a serious driving machine! I like it!!

-fh

quote Originally posted by fierohobby: ...Oh, and GM- that photoshop of the concept, even minus engine and trunk, is awesome. The cowl looks a trifle long, the nose needs to be closed up, and the divider between the seats isn't in the model, but man- it looks like a serious driving machine! I like it!!-fh

Agreed. I am keeping my mouth closed and just watching beause I want to see others take on the basic concept we have going in this thread. (I've been waiting for a chance to use that )

quote Originally posted by fierohobby: ...I can see you initially at +/- 15% of that mark... As far as weight, well.... I think it will creep up on you. All the little stuff adds up. But even at +20% of your guesstimate you're still only talking #1200. Keep in mind, I've never done anything like this in my life, so my estimations mean jack...-fh

They mean a lot to me. You did a pretty good job of estimating the overages, especially your percentages - what business are you in?

I am starting to find a lot of little things I forgot, but my own "balooning budget projections" have it covered. For instance, there's a little over a hundred bucks needed to finish the narrowed steering rack, and modify the lower control arms to work properly in this chassis. Then there's the fuel pump, that I was too lazy to pull from the Cutlass. I figure I might as well pay a little extra and get an inline aftermarket pump...

So far, so good though.

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[This message has been edited by toddshotrods (edited 08-20-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Gokart Mozart:

This is a great visual but I kind of hope that you don't make it quite that narrow, maybe 8 inches wider would suffice and if you went even wider in the rear you would be true to the Fiero form. Just my thoughts.

You're right on target. The nose will be that narrow, but the body will have "big hips" , and a nice wedge shape. It will also taper down vertically from the cowl to the nose. It will be about 32-inches wide in the rear seat area. The powertrain is also about 32-inches wide.

As I said, I just wanted to let Gokart run with his idea and see what I see in it. One thing I already like about it is the strong vintage race car image. I really want to capture that.

Go Gokart..

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[This message has been edited by toddshotrods (edited 08-20-2007).]

Thanks all. I'm glad to throw these ideas out. Speaking of ideas, http://www.raceace.com/products.html
Much more later.

It's later...

-fh

I resized the wheels and tires on the model to 135R15's up front, and 215/70R16's in back; on the 100 spoke Daytons of course. The lo-profiles didn't fit the "period" look.

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[This message has been edited by toddshotrods (edited 08-22-2007).]

In an ideal world, I would flat tow the Timepiece all over the country with this:

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Even given the narrow front track, and relatively narrow tires all around, the Timepiece would have to be a decent handling car. Even taking a reasonable margin of error into account, it's going to be very light with four-wheel independent suspension, etc. I had really never thought about the handling until I started looking at that vintage road racer I posted in action Now, I really can't wait to drive it!

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[This message has been edited by toddshotrods (edited 08-28-2007).]

Dude, did you wake up out of a sound sleep to post that, or do you just not sleep?

But speaking of driving it, I have a question for you. Cars with all the weight in the rear are notoriously twitchy, and unlike the Fiero, you've got engine AND radiator in the back. With all the weight (engine, radiator, coolant, even bigger tires/wheels) in the rear, and pretty much nothing in the front, how are you planning to keep it in the road at speed? You planning to add weight to the front to achieve a good ratio?

-fh

Yea, yea the trunk is bad and I still can't find a good engine pic.

[This message has been edited by Gokart Mozart (edited 08-28-2007).]

quote Originally posted by fierohobby: ...or do you just not sleep? ...

I try not to, it's the biggest waste of time in life to me; but eventually I give in and let life pass me by again.

quote Originally posted by fierohobby: ...But speaking of driving it, I have a question for you...how are you planning to keep it in the road at speed?...

I am aware of the problem, but I haven't made it that far (solution) yet!?! As small as it is, even a full radiator wouldn't do a whole lot for the weight distribution. Maybe I need to start eating more!

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Just cast your front wheels in lead and that should take care of the weight differece issue.

quote Originally posted by The Poopsmith: Just cast your front wheels in lead and that should take care of the weight differece issue.

Hmmm.... that's one solution. Mounting them might be tough though.

There is also the fuel tank and battery locations to consider...

-fh

Battery is going up front for sure, I have to get more done on the model or the mock-up to see if the fuel tank will fit. Still not a lot of weight, I know every bit helps though.

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http://youngstown.craigslis...g/spo/407701810.html

shape your own or add

[This message has been edited by Gokart Mozart (edited 09-04-2007).]

Good news and bad.

* Good
I have decided that I REALLY like this project. So much so that I am switching the roles of my projects a bit, and making this one a higher priority. That means I am going to put more into it, and invest some serious labor into it. Fear not because, unless I get seriously ill or die, I plan to finish it. I'll get more into it later, but I finally realized that this car is like the culmination of a dream. Those who remember me from way back will remember my Fiero Supercar aspirations...

*Bad
This also means that it's gonna take longer, because I want more out of each part and the "whole". I am going to put my other street rod on the road next summer and take my time on this one.

The rat rod theme is giving way to a more purposefully developed vintage race car patina. Some of the parts (Fiero control arms, for instance) will be replaced with custom parts; built to promote the vintage theme. Look at the control arms in the vintage racer Gokart posted. I will probably end up going to an automotive museum one day to get a better perpective, and some ideas...

Last thing: I have this Northstar...

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[This message has been edited by toddshotrods (edited 09-15-2007).]

What you mean it's not done yet? I believe you'll make it happen and it will be an excellent automobile when finished.

Daniel

keepin it fresh

quote Originally posted by Gokart Mozart: keepin it fresh

Poppin' Fresh

(in other words, bump)

-fh

I've been putting a LOT of thought into the direction I am going with the Timepiece, and wanted to see what some actual '27 Ponchos look like:







I have tons of ideas, just need some time to start sketching and modeling again... I'm also glad I waited on the chassis, because I was going to build it from 2x3-inch rectangular tubing. Now, I am thinking about a full maze of round-tubes to build a true space frame...

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[This message has been edited by toddshotrods (edited 10-02-2007).]

quote Originally posted by toddshotrods: Now, I am thinking about a full maze of round-tubes to build a true space frame...

Dude, are you familiar with the term "scope creep" ?

-fh

[This message has been edited by fierohobby (edited 10-03-2007).]

quote Originally posted by fierohobby: Dude, are you familiar with the term "scope creep" ?

Yup, but it's purposed this time:

quote Originally posted by toddshotrods: ...I have decided that I REALLY like this project. So much so that I am switching the roles of my projects a bit, and making this one a higher priority. That means I am going to put more into it, and invest some serious labor into it....This also means that it's gonna take longer, because I want more out of each part and the "whole". I am going to put my other street rod on the road next summer and take my time on this one... The rat rod theme is giving way to a more purposefully developed vintage race car patina...

I need one project that is purposely allowed to creep. That is how I explore te "outer limits" and push myself to new skill levels. Eventually, I try to back the project down and finish it; and replace it with another "creeper". That is exactly the decision I just made. My other street rod project has actually been creeping for eleven years now, and is the reason I have a lot of the skills I have. I learned new skills to be able to do what I envisioned on paper or computer screen. Now, I have decided to back that project down and finish it (hopefully for next summer); and let this one creep.

I won't let the Timepiece go that long though because I already have another one in mind to replace it - after two or three of my current projects are finished or sold.

It's all about the journey...

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another crazy pic


The Bedelia was Morgan's strongest rival during the Cyclecar Grand Prix of 1913. Built in Paris by Henri Bourbeau and Robert Deveaux it was surely one of the most popular and longest-lived French cyclecars. The body was a torpedo shaped duocar with the driver sitting in the rear behind the passenger. The car did cost 120 guineas in 1912 . The picture to the left is from an early Bedelia's advertisement.

GM, you beat me to it. I was just thinking about this needing a bump today.

-fh

Mercedes Silverflow Concept
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WOW - WEE!!! Me like that one Collecting parts and working on the plans in my noggin. Here's where I am:

* This project will be my first effort at cutting my own billet wheels from scratch. They will basically be billet aluminum centers, cut from my CAD models, designed to look like vintage wheels, and bolted to steel or aluminum hoops. I have found a place to get steel hoops, looking for aluminum.
* Excelsior has new V-rated vintage tires now that would make pushing this little monkey to it's limits more enticing.
* I am moving the custom pedal assembly I made for my other street rod project to the Timepiece - it just fits better on this one.

* Trying to psyche myself up to do a full round-tube space frame chassis. I know I CAN do it, just trying to convince myself that I WANT to do it (time). I should have a new frame table ready for the task by next summer - just need my mind ready
* The thought of a Northstar and Porsche transaxle just...

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[This message has been edited by toddshotrods (edited 10-31-2007).]

Just a friendly bump, and a look at the 27 Indian head...

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Cleaned things up a bit. New body (more on that later), moved forward so the fuel tank can fit between it and the powertrain. No trunk so there is a clear ununstructed view of the powertrain. The goal is to have only what is ABSOLUTELY necessary for the car to do it's job. The radiator would be in the back of the body (sealed from the passenger compartment) and would be fed by built-in ducting that would run along the lower corners of the cockpit; fed by grilled openings in the body. This also works my my desire to make race car experience come through as the sound of the air moving through the ducting should increase with velocity, increasing the sensation of "speed". Also, the electric fan(s) going on and off should add a little sensation as well.

Also working on a more sophisticated color/texture scheme. Brown pearl metallic, brown frog or ostrich skin, aged aluminum, and black paint/powercoat.

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Hope you guys haven't given up on the 27 yet! I sold the Camaro, put another project on indefinite hold, and blended my two street rod projects into one. That means the building is about to begin!!! The name will be now be project "Inhaler", simply because it works better for my long-range goals than "Timepiece".

Anyway, I am working on the design for the chassis using the narrowed Fiero front suspension shown previsouly in this thread, and Fiero rear suspension. As soon as I get the specs sorted out I plan to start cutting and welding. More pics, 3D renderings, and details to come - just wanted to prime the pump!

I am thinking about the 25th show seriously now, because my goal is to have it registered and running by July for the Goodguy's show in Columbus.

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Haven't given up. I know the process from concept to reality sometimes takes longer than anticipated.

Are you going to use the Fiero rear suspension because you have it and to kill time?

Here's another crazy truck I just thought of because of the radiator placement; the Tubester. Street Rodder mag had the build up:

quote Originally posted by Gokart Mozart: ...Are you going to use the Fiero rear suspension because you have it and to kill time?...

Yes. That's also what led to the decision to combine the two street rods projects. By utilizing the parts I have on hand, and concentrating my efforts on designing around them, I can have the vehicle together and registered faster. I have clear titles for all the parts I will be using, which makes getting past Ohio State Highway Patrol's inspection MUCH easier. Later I can upgrade and replace whatever I want, but initially I save money and time...

Sweet truck Very close to what I have in mind for the radiator setup.

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The guy that originally built this thing ( and two more since this one) lives here in town. maybe he could give you an idea or two this one's in Jay Leno's garage now.




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It's just like building a canoe out of a log. first you cut down a tree........ then you cut off everything that doesn't look like a canoe.

[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 12-13-2007).]

/\ /\ /\ /\

Interesting facts from Wikipedia:

* Introduced as "The Jay Leno Tank Car" on Gran Turismo 4, it ended up in the game "by accident" when the game development team visited Jay's garage for some engine noises. They noticed the car and were so amazed they put it in the game.
* During one of the first freeway test drives an unsuitable oil line blew and dumped the entire 17 gallons of oil onto the road
* The car gets 5 miles per gallon (up from the original performance of 2-3 miles per gallon)
* The engine red-lines at 2,900 RPM
* Jay Leno brought the car on his show when interviewing Arnold Schwarzenegger and introduced it as "The Terminator car".

quote Originally posted by toddshotrods: there is a clear ununstructed view of the powertrain.

In keeping with the theme of unubstructed view of the drivetrain (which I really, really like), though about mounting the muffler in front of the engine and just have the tail pipes coming out the rear?

Gas tank will be in front of the engine so muffler will have to go elsewhere. I say zoomies, front pipes run under the engine.
Hmmm, what about 2 sets of these?

[This message has been edited by Gokart Mozart (edited 12-13-2007).]

In the latest versions, I shortened the wheelbase from 115-inches to 100-inches. The powertrain is tucked close to the back of the body, and the gas tank is completely concealed in the body, under the rear seats... Yes, I said seats; plural as in two rear seats, as in three-seater, as in McLaren F1 style

Still experimenting with the exhaust. I insist that it be an integral component of the powertrain - designed in not added on. I am experimenting with mufflers up high in the open space to left of the motor, above the bellhousing. The rear bank would go three-into-one kind of tight against the back of the motor, with the "one" going under the motor, forward and up to the right muffler. The front bank would be similar but just snake around a bit on the bottom-front side of the motor before heading up to the left muffler.

After the registration process is finished and the car is operational, I would do a custom "starship" plenum intake with the throttle body on the right side; with a carbon-fiber velocity stack stopping just at the "front" of the motor. I want to use a lot of carbon-fiber...

More renderings to come, after I sort out some of the details. The three-seat thing is sweet! I ended up with it because I just didn't like the car being so narrow. Now it's wedge-shaped laterally and longitudinally. When I widened the back for appearance, I quickly realized the fringe benefit of having enough room for another bucket seat

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