I would think the major need/want for these cradles will be to the guys with 84-87 suspension and they want to update their cars to the 88 handling.
The guys on the "Fiero Racing List" have quoted in saying that the best handling Fiero is not an 88, its an 87 with an 88 cradle. I would love to put an 88 rear suspension and brakes on my 85GT with the 4.9. The car would finally be totally predictable in a drift.
I would also add that these things will need to be "tough" as a lot of people would be looking at these to go into cars with swapped drive trains. The 88 factory cradle is weaker by design. When Ed Parks does a 4.9 on an 88 he modifies the cradle, I believe he boxes it in, to keep it from twisting. If you make it tough and a reasonable price, I am sure there will be lots of people interested.
IP: Logged
11:54 AM
FieroFanatic13 Member
Posts: 3521 From: Big Rapids, MI, USA Registered: Jul 2006
I would think the major need/want for these cradles will be to the guys with 84-87 suspension and they want to update their cars to the 88 handling.
The guys on the "Fiero Racing List" have quoted in saying that the best handling Fiero is not an 88, its an 87 with an 88 cradle. I would love to put an 88 rear suspension and brakes on my 85GT with the 4.9. The car would finally be totally predictable in a drift.
I would also add that these things will need to be "tough" as a lot of people would be looking at these to go into cars with swapped drive trains. The 88 factory cradle is weaker by design. When Ed Parks does a 4.9 on an 88 he modifies the cradle, I believe he boxes it in, to keep it from twisting. If you make it tough and a reasonable price, I am sure there will be lots of people interested.
I think that stuff about the best handling Fiero being a pre-88 with an '88 rear cradle originated with one of the known suspension people (Herb Adams or someone similar) saying this once upon a time... I can't imagine it being totally true given the reviews that the magazines gave the '88 cars over the pre '88 cars. They don't just talk about the rear being better- they talk in depth about the front being better too, and I don't know how it makes sense that the pre '88 design could make for a better car combined with the '88 rear. Front and rear suspensions are supposed to be designed to work together, and while putting an '88 cradle on a pre '88 car may make for a terrific rear suspension improvement, I'd doubt that it would work "better" with the '88 front suspension that was DESIGNED to work with the new '88 rear suspension.
I'm sure the racing guys have tried both though, and would have a better idea as to whether or not it's true than I would. I'm not an engineer, so don't quote me here. Just an observation!
[This message has been edited by FieroFanatic13 (edited 02-19-2008).]
IIRC, The pre-88 front suspensions can be modified to handle better than a modified 88 front can be... not sure on the specifics, but stock for stock im sure the 88 front is better.
------------------ By:Custom2M4 in process-12" front brakes using '88 calipers and '88 brakes in rear hybird '88 rear suspension 3400 bottom end, 2.8 Falconer Race heads, 60-1 BB turbo, A/W IC
IP: Logged
01:47 PM
FieroFanatic13 Member
Posts: 3521 From: Big Rapids, MI, USA Registered: Jul 2006
IIRC, The pre-88 front suspensions can be modified to handle better than a modified 88 front can be... not sure on the specifics, but stock for stock im sure the 88 front is better.
How modified though? Custom tubular arms or simple things like bushings, etc? I wouldn't really compare them if it requires custom tubular arms and the like I guess.
IP: Logged
04:32 PM
Silicoan86 Member
Posts: 1614 From: Savage, MN, USA Registered: May 2004
If you can make a rear 88 cradle that is of high quality with adapters for a pre-88 frame, I would more than likely buy one for my project. I've been searching for an 88 cradle for a while now and haven't found anything. Of course it would have to be as strong if not stronger than the factory one (maybe beef it up a bit to increase overall chassis stiffness?) and would have to have the exact mounting points as factory or the alignment would be tough to do. Aluminum would be nice but I don't think that the few pounds you would save would be worth the sacrafice in material strength. You say you've created a solidworks model? Could you post some screen shots of it for us? I would be really interested in seeing it...
a repo cradle would be great if it could be done in the 300 dollar range. if it can be made with extra mounts to adjust for lowering that would be worth it. keep my name down if you plan on doing anything serious, i wont check this post to much.
I'm not going to play semantics here over "custom made." Anything that is not factory is custom in my book, semi-mass produced or not. Tubular control arms that replace factory ones are not in most peoples budgets. My point was to wonder if you have to replace the existing control arms and whatnot to make a pre 88 handle as well as an 88 does basically from the get go! ( :
[This message has been edited by FieroFanatic13 (edited 02-20-2008).]
point being, a 84-87 with 88 rear cradle and some front end work, the 84-87 will handle better than an 88 can, factory or modified.
Where are you getting this info from?
Coming from someone who has spent many hours modifying a pre-88 - No it won't. Pre-88 front suspensions are quite inferior to 88's especially when lowered. Sure, a pre-88 can handle very will with an 88 cradle but it's front suspension still has nothing on an 88. Ever lowered the front of a pre-88 more than an inch? When the front suspension is compressed it's camber actually turns more positive than negative. That's not good! Sure you can adjust it with an alignment but you can't really help the fact that your suspension compresses when cornering. The best thing to do is to limit the suspension from traveling as much as possible. There really are a lot of things wrong with the pre-88 front suspension, but I think people believe they can be made to handle better simply because there is more after market for them. I'll be running a pre-88 front with an 88 rear when it's all said and done simply because I couldn't find a rust-free 88. I'll be happy with it, but I will always still wish it was a full 88....
Coming from someone who has spent many hours modifying a pre-88 - No it won't. Pre-88 front suspensions are quite inferior to 88's especially when lowered. Sure, a pre-88 can handle very will with an 88 cradle but it's front suspension still has nothing on an 88. Ever lowered the front of a pre-88 more than an inch? When the front suspension is compressed it's camber actually turns more positive than negative. That's not good! Sure you can adjust it with an alignment but you can't really help the fact that your suspension compresses when cornering. The best thing to do is to limit the suspension from traveling as much as possible. There really are a lot of things wrong with the pre-88 front suspension, but I think people believe they can be made to handle better simply because there is more after market for them. I'll be running a pre-88 front with an 88 rear when it's all said and done simply because I couldn't find a rust-free 88. I'll be happy with it, but I will always still wish it was a full 88....
I'm rather curious as to how a double wishbone suspension can increase negative camber when compressed. No really, that question is really bugging me.
I'm rather curious as to how a double wishbone suspension can increase negative camber when compressed. No really, that question is really bugging me.
I'm not sure what AP2k is getting at here- negative camber IS typically the result of compression of the suspension isn't it, especially on a short upper with longer lower control arm situation like on the Fiero?
That being said, I find the assertion made by Silicoan86 that the pre '88 Front suspension INCREASES POSITIVE CAMBER during compression hard to visualize. HOW exactly is this possible with a SHORT upper arm and a LONGER lower arm? The shorter upper should pull the top of the knuckle/wheel IN during compression, causing NEGATIVE CAMBER, shouldn't it? Or is there something strange going on with the Fiero front end that pushes the top of the wheel out somehow??
[This message has been edited by FieroFanatic13 (edited 02-21-2008).]
IP: Logged
09:00 AM
FieroFanatic13 Member
Posts: 3521 From: Big Rapids, MI, USA Registered: Jul 2006
Sorry I guess I worded that incorrectly. That's not exactly what I meant… I guess the best way to say it is that when you go around a left hand turn, your right wheel has more positive camber (in relation to the ground, not the car) than if you were not cornering at all. Technically it doesn't actually increase, it just doesn't decrease enough to offset the body roll. As I understand it, the 88's have a more precise decrease in camber that matches the body roll much better so that even when cornering your camber stays very close to what it is when your not cornering (again in relation to the ground of course, not the car). Does that make sense? Probably still don't quite get what I'm saying... Sorry for the bad explanation before, must have been pretty out of it when I wrote that but trust me that's not what I meant at all. Either way, an 88 front suspension is far superior to the earlier ones.
Anyways, back on topic now...
[This message has been edited by Silicoan86 (edited 02-21-2008).]
IP: Logged
12:46 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
Wow, I forgot about this thread... What's the progress on them? I was actually lurking in it when it started, and was considering one for my concept... Since I have to build a tubular rear clip anyway, this would make a nice addition... Any kinda ballpark price guesses at all? I promise I wouldn't hold you to it...
quote
Originally posted by chrisgtp:
you cant just slap a few peices on the ground and expect them to be leval you will need a table made for building frames. also what are your welding skills? there is now way i wuld ever let some one who never went to school or at least worked as a welder for a few years weld a part like this
Talk about someone that needs to go to school... I know, I'm probably going to get a neg for this as soon as I hit submit, but any of you who've read my posts know that I can't stand people pointing fingers when they are suffering from the same things of which they are accusing.... First of all, learn to spell. Secondly, why even comment when you have no idea what skills he possesses? If you don't like the idea, then move along and don't buy one. Otherwise, be patient like everyone else, and make your decision once you see the product. Negative comments based on speculation (especially since he never mentioned slapping steel on the floor) are unnecessary. If you see the product and don't like it, then feel free to make some suggestions or constructive criticism. -Paul
Wow, I forgot about this thread... What's the progress on them? I was actually lurking in it when it started, and was considering one for my concept... Since I have to build a tubular rear clip anyway, this would make a nice addition... Any kinda ballpark price guesses at all? I promise I wouldn't hold you to it...
First of all, learn to spell. Secondly, why even comment when you have no idea what skills he possesses? If you don't like the idea, then move along and don't buy one. Otherwise, be patient like everyone else, and make your decision once you see the product. Negative comments based on speculation (especially since he never mentioned slapping steel on the floor) are unnecessary. If you see the product and don't like it, then feel free to make some suggestions or constructive criticism. -Paul
Well said Paul. I appreciate your thoughts concerning the lazy people, who do not pay attention to the details of spelling. Oh, and build this exciting product. I know there will be excitement in our community if it can be easily adaptable to N*'s or Ecotec's, etc.
Cordially, Kevin
[This message has been edited by kevin (edited 02-20-2009).]
