Here's and update for everyone on the 427 LSX project with a buildt 4T65E transaxle with 3:69 gears.And no Shawn my cars don't blow up like yours,thats why it takes a little longer to build it right the first time.The 621 HP was on an engine dyno,not a chassis dyno.But it was just straight HP with no tuning just a base line.We feel with tuning in the car after breakin we will get over 600HP at the wheels.As you can see this isn't just an engine transplant,its a complete rebuild of the entire car.Everything has been taken off the car and rebuildt or replaced,as you can see it now has an IMSA body kit on it.The car is being buildt like my Aldino was to be streetdriven, dragrace and run roadcourses.Thats tough to do and it takes a lot of thought and investigation and time to do it right.You can see in the picture if you look close that it has Wilwood Dynolite four piston brakes on it with 11 inch rotors.It also has coil overs in the rear with adjustable struts and a adjustable shocks in front.That way I can change real easy for the kind of driving I want to do,street, drag or roadrace.The car will also be air conditoned and be completly streetable for the Hot Rod power tour next year.I'm hoping to make it to the 25th but it will be close and it won't be ready for racing there as it will need breakin and tuning and I will need to drive it a bit to find out its personality.Wait until you see the paintjob this is going to get,it will be wild. Hey,Fiero-X ,I gave you a window to beat my times,whats happening?
Don
------------------ Too Far 60' - 1.491 sec 1/4 mi - 11.323 sec mph - 116.40
Like I said in the other Thread going on---Cant wait to see the finished product and sure it will not fall short of its expectations. Whos widebody kit are you using?
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12:23 PM
Don Kraus Member
Posts: 662 From: Jefferson, WI USA Registered: Oct 2002
I got it from Fiero warehouse,takes a lot of glass work to get it on.But it should be worth it when its done.It took a lot longer than I thought it would. Don
------------------ Too Far 60' - 1.491 sec 1/4 mi - 11.323 sec mph - 116.40
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12:58 PM
jscott1 Member
Posts: 21676 From: Houston, TX , USA Registered: Dec 2001
im still here. ive just been really busy with the shop, my job, and my girlfriend. Car is done though. Im driving it to topeka tomorrow to meet up with the power tour. Might give it a pass at heartland park, but dont expect much other than mph cause im doing so on my normal ol street tires. I need to get some slicks here in the next week or so, and itll be go time.
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01:55 PM
TiredGXP Member
Posts: 712 From: A cold, miserable place Registered: Jan 2008
Love the body kit. This is going to be an awesome vehicle when you're finished.
Any details on what was done to the tranny to handle that much torque?
Cheers
**EDIT** I was wondering how you were going to get behind the wheel with that roll cage. On second look, it appears that the door bars are removable, true?
[This message has been edited by TiredGXP (edited 06-08-2008).]
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03:08 PM
madcurl Member
Posts: 21401 From: In a Van down by the Kern River Registered: Jul 2003
good work don you do an amasing job and it dose take time to build them right for every body that says our cars cant be fast i show them the vids of you aldino
sounds like you are trying to step the game up quite a bit! looks great though. how long until you think it's ready to run down the strip? i'd be willing to trailer my car somewhere to do some shake down passes. be neat to have two ten second fieros chasing each other down the track.... let me know.
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04:00 PM
Raydar Member
Posts: 40962 From: Carrollton GA. Out in the... country. Registered: Oct 1999
I had ZZP do the transaxle this time,should be able to handle in excess of 800 HP.I'm looking at Sept or Oct to go to the dragstrip.Its a 2007 Impala SS transaxle. The shop is pretty nice,its 32 X 36 ft,heated,cable TV,restroom,water and most of all a lot of room.My last car I buildt in an unheated two car carage. Fiero-X,good to see you giving your car a little breakin time,good luck on your runs. The roll bar does swing out and then has a pin in it once you close it. Don
------------------ Too Far 60' - 1.491 sec 1/4 mi - 11.323 sec mph - 116.40
[This message has been edited by Don Kraus (edited 06-08-2008).]
Wow What are you doing for axles? Any more pics of the underbody and suspension setups? Is the suspension setup in the front the stock 84-87 setup with the adjustable shocks and bigger brakes (or is that an 88, I can't tell from the pics)? Hope to see it at the 25th!
RWDPLZ,its an 88 chasis and I'll be using coil overs in back,I'll post more pictures as it goes together.I'm using the 2007 impala V8 axles,It looks like they will fit with no modifications and they are more heavy duty than than regular ones,they have 8 balls in the outside cv joint versea 6 as an example and real beafy axles.
Don
------------------ Too Far 60' - 1.491 sec 1/4 mi - 11.323 sec mph - 116.40
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04:57 PM
Alex4mula Member
Posts: 7405 From: Canton, MI US Registered: Dec 1999
Doesnt look like a LSX to me, but a ls1/2/7 block. (LSX = iron block, LSx=built alum block)
I dont think you need to worry about using the impala axles, changing the knuckles out just to use a 8ball outer joint is not worth the trouble unless your running faster than high 8's. "MY" axles are in the ZZP TTGT car, and they are just a stock OEM axle modded to fit the length you need. We used 6ball outers, both sides were from a berreta passenger side, with IIRC the passenger side of the car getting the tripot moved down the shaft and a new clip milled in.
At least we dont need to worry about the trans, or the motor breaking now, its great to actually start having to focus time on making the car move out, instead of making power without exploding.
Who made the adapter plate? Those mounts are identical to the ones I am going to be making here in a few days 84-87 cradle bushings I suspect?
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06:24 PM
Archie Member
Posts: 9436 From: Las Vegas, NV Registered: Dec 1999
Hey Archie,the LS7 will fit on the other side but you need to have a one inch wedge made the lenght of the exhaust to kick out the bottom of manifold to clear the transaxle.Tomorrow I'll take the manifold off and take a picture of it for you.I had the wedge welded to the manifold.I think it would fit with a manual transaxle without the wedge and then run the exhaust pipe sidways like the vette.It actually fits the auto transaxle but the back of the exhaust flange hit the speed senser and I wanted to dump the exhaust straight down to be more efficent.Look on E-Bay under Z06 exhaust and you will see what I mean about the exhaust running sidways and I think that makes the exhaust hit a partial dead end and goofs up the flow.
Madcurl,I worked with Fastfiero on the adapter plate,he now has them available.They're only 1/2 inch thick and you need that to get the engine and transaxle to fit and then you need to get the engine as far to the drivers side as possable.Even then I had to tweek the strut tower a little on the 88 frame to clear the pulleys.
RacerX11,the engine has an LS1 front cover on it and the LS4 water pump assembly fits with no mods.You have to make your own alternater bracket and idler for it and move the top idler above the water pump over to the left a little and then use the idler boss on the left side of the waterpump assy.(facing the engine) for a grooved pulley.You have to remove some aluminum from that boss to make that grooved pulley fit Don ------------------ Too Far 60' - 1.491 sec 1/4 mi - 11.323 sec mph - 116.40
[This message has been edited by Don Kraus (edited 06-08-2008).]
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09:51 PM
Archie Member
Posts: 9436 From: Las Vegas, NV Registered: Dec 1999
Hey Archie,the LS7 will fit on the other side but you need to have a one inch wedge made the lenght of the exhaust to kick out the bottom of manifold to clear the transaxle.Tomorrow I'll take the manifold off and take a picture of it for you.I had the wedge welded to the manifold.I think it would fit with a manual transaxle without the wedge and then run the exhaust pipe sidways like the vette.It actually fits the auto transaxle but the back of the exhaust flange hit the speed senser and I wanted to dump the exhaust straight down to be more efficent Don
Yeah, the LS7 manifold will fit the stick shift without moving it out. We're using 1.75" tube headers from S&P. So it's straight down & out.
Looks like you raised the C-Line of the crankshaft & axle outputs about 2" farther above the cradle to clear the transmission case above the cradle.
Archie
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10:11 PM
Jun 9th, 2008
darkhorizon Member
Posts: 12279 From: Flint Michigan Registered: Jan 2006
That's one mighty large engine to be installing in a Fiero! It then gets us to an important question of how much horsepower the stock Fiero frame can tolerate and how much reliability will result. I am assuming that you are reinforcing the frame. Nice job and good luck with the project.
------------------ 87GT - 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's 4T65eHD 87GT - 3.4L Turbocharged engine, modified TH125H " I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
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10:15 AM
PFF
System Bot
Jun 10th, 2008
Capt Fiero Member
Posts: 7657 From: British Columbia, Canada Registered: Feb 2000
Edited because I think my brain was fatigued when I typed it up the first time.
Hey Dennis, I think you brought up a good point on this. Just how much Power/Torque can a Fiero handle. Hypothetically, say you have a bullet proof trans/engine with solid mounts. Ed Parks has found the 88 Cradle will twist badly with just 300lbs of torque, so it needs to be re-enforced, Blair has found that with a 3800SC on an 85 Cradle it should be re-enforced. I found that with repeated abuse on my V8 with the dog bone relocated to the drivers side, it started to crack the frame at the strut tower, and I believe 2 or 3 other cars, both SBC and 4.9 have had similar problems. I know that my suspension crack in the front was again due to repeated abuse, I would go blasting down side roads at WOT and end up hitting a chuck hole hard and eventually broke the upper shock mount. (never bent a rim or blew a tire)
In my personal opinion, the next place we are going to start to see breaking parts, will be the front (forward) side of the cradle where it mounts to the car is will start to show signs of metal fatigue. The rear of the cradle is being pressed into the body on hard launches however those two front cradle bolts are the only 2 bolts holding the entire front of the engine and trans in place. All the load DOWN is being carried by them. They are pretty heavy, but the "sheer force" and strain must be getting to them. I am not talking about just the physical bolts, but the mounts and brackets that the bolts go through.
If 300lbs of torque with constant abuse will break these parts, I could to say 600lbs of torque is going to have them apart in several less passes down the track.
[This message has been edited by Capt Fiero (edited 06-10-2008).]
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12:09 AM
Dennis LaGrua Member
Posts: 15526 From: Hillsborough, NJ U.S.A. Registered: May 2000
Hey Dennis, I think you brought up a good point on this. Just how much Power/Torque can a Fiero handle. Hypothetically, say you have a bullet proof trans/engine with solid mounts. Ed Parks has found the 88 Cradle will twist badly with just 300lbs of torque, so it needs to be re-enforced, Blair has found that with a 3800SC on an 85 Cradle it should be enforced. I found that with repeated abuse on my V8 with the dog bone relocated to the drivers side, it started to crack the frame at the strut tower, and I believe 2 or 3 other cars, both SBC and 4.9 have had similar problems. I know that my suspension brake in the front was again due to repeated abuse, I would go blasting down side roads WOT and end up hitting a chuck hole hard and eventually broke the upper shock mount. (never bent a rim or blew a tire) Just the repeated WOT throttle and then breaking hard.
In my personal opinion, the next place we are going to start to see breaking parts, will be the head (forward) side of the cradle where it mounts to the car is starting to show signs of metal fatigue. The rear of the cradle is being pressed into the body however on hard launch those to front cradle bolts are the only 2 bolts, holding the entire front of the engine and trans in place. All the load DOWN is being carried by them. They are pretty heavy, but the "sheer force" and strain must be getting to them.
If 300lbs of torque with constant abuse will break these parts, I could to say 600lbs of torque is going to have them apart in several less passes down the track.
Perhaps this is an illustration of the point that when you change one thing it often affects another. I've always maintained that any drivetrain should be designed as a complete system. Don seems like a guy who understands how to build fast Fieros and I would assume that he is taking steps to reinforce the cradle and the attachment points- not really hard when you think about it as its just a matter of additional metal being welded here and there. Don wants to go where no Fiero owner has gone before and I don't doubt that he will succeed. I would not discount the 300 ft lb max figure given by Ed Parks. Eds been working on Fieros longer than just about anyone and he's seen it all.
------------------ 87GT - 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's 4T65eHD 87GT - 3.4L Turbocharged engine, modified TH125H " I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
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12:06 PM
jscott1 Member
Posts: 21676 From: Houston, TX , USA Registered: Dec 2001
Bolts are a lot stronger than you give them credit. 300 ft-lbs is not a lot for a bolt designed for 100,000 lbs per square inch.
Usually a stress failure will occur where you have compromised the structure. Like if chunks are taken out of the frame and it's not reinforced.
I would be very surprised if 300 ft-lbs alone would damage a stock cradle. Of couse you pile on other abuse like hiiting chuckholed at WOT you can break something.
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12:16 PM
Don Kraus Member
Posts: 662 From: Jefferson, WI USA Registered: Oct 2002
Hey Guys,I have reinforced and boxed in the engine cradle,touched up welds where needed.I am using 5 motor mounts,big one in back and two on each side all with poly to give the engine and transaxle some flex.I don't believe solid mounts are good because they don't give the system any breathing room.I drove my Aldino and dragraced it for eight years,doing wheelies on just about every run and never cracked or bent anything.This car will weight about 200 lbs less than the Aldino and that will make it easier on the drive train.Also,its an automatic and that has some give in it to help keep things together.If you took that same engine and put a manual trans.behind it,put sticky tires on it,reved it up and poped the clutch I'll guaranty you something eventually would break somewhere.I like to give my equipment as much shock relief as I can so I don't break things. Time to get back at it,thanks for all the attention and comments. Don
------------------ Too Far 60' - 1.491 sec 1/4 mi - 11.323 sec mph - 116.40
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05:00 PM
PURPLE REIGN Member
Posts: 4080 From: Minnesnowta ------------------ Land of White Gold Registered: Sep 2002
Here's and update for everyone on the 427 LSX project with a buildt 4T65E transaxle with 3:69 gears.And no Shawn my cars don't blow up like yours,thats why it takes a little longer to build it right the first time. Blah blah blah
WOW ............that's an intersting way to open a thread and reveal your childish ignorance.
If your brain was as big as your mouth you'd figure out that [color =red] ANY [/color] built car will have problems. I guarantee you any wager, that you'll have issues. But then again if you spent less time lipping off & badmouthing other people behind thier back you'd finish more than one project every 6 years.
Mine had issues due to the horses-ass engine builder.............nothing else. Interesting how every piece of " know-it-all " advice was WRONG.
Have you run out of checks yet getting everyone to build that for you ?
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08:50 PM
Racing_Master Member
Posts: 1460 From: Hooksett, NH, USA Registered: Nov 2007
I don't believe solid mounts are good because they don't give the system any breathing room.
Well... I believe in solid mounts because of their principal
Everyone knows, at least I hope, Energy cannot be created or destroyed, only converted. Energy used to compress the rubber or poly mounts is converted, SO, in essence, you lose some power from the poly or rubber mounts. Solids make it so it has to twist the whole car. Problem is that you cannot (I repeat, CANNOT) place ALL solid mounts on an engine and transmission. The engine will twist the chassis, I dont care how well you build it, it will twist it, and if the trannie mount is also solid, at least on longitudinal, it will break the bellhousing off the transmission. Also if you use solid mounts, I can bet it wont be a good car to ride as a daily driver, rattle your bones out all over the place. Can-Am cars used the engines as part of the frame, actually one of my ideas for a Fiero custom frame is having the engine an integral part. Generally speaking, this will make it so 99% of the force produced in the engine gets to the rear wheels. Though it be a miniscule amount that using solids over rubber gives you (probably a fraction of a HP) every hp counts in racing.
By the way, nice lookin car! Should be awesome when its done
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09:15 PM
madcurl Member
Posts: 21401 From: In a Van down by the Kern River Registered: Jul 2003
Shawn,looks like you can hand it out but can't take it,pretty childish.The reason I posted that was because you asked in the other thread if I blew it up yet.I was just replying to your statement from the thread of an update on my car.The rest of your statements don't make sense.I don't know why you are so bitter.
Madcurl,I'll get some pictures of the brakes and mounts for you.
Don
------------------ Too Far 60' - 1.491 sec 1/4 mi - 11.323 sec mph - 116.40
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10:15 PM
IMSA GT Member
Posts: 10505 From: California Registered: Aug 2007
What are you doing for axles? Any more pics of the underbody and suspension setups? Is the suspension setup in the front the stock 84-87 setup with the adjustable shocks and bigger brakes (or is that an 88, I can't tell from the pics)? Hope to see it at the 25th!
And of course, that's a good thing. 
