I just ordered a pair of the decals from shop_rat45 on ebay. The pictures posted above by Lambo nut, plus shop_rat45's detailed description on his ebay page (specifically, about the letters being charcoal in color and not black), as well as his willingness to take returns if the decals aren't correct, sold me.

Regarding the other decal supplier, "Stencils and Stripes" in Park Ridge, Illinois:

I spoke to the proprietor and, at his request, sent him a photo of his reproduction next to my OEM decal. That was two days ago, and I haven't received word back from him, so: I guess that was an expensive lesson ($118.00). A word of warning: If you want accurate decals for your Indy, and if want quick service, well... you get the picture.

I'll post here again when I've received shop_rat45's decals.

Thanks to all of you who posted with their helpful opinions. Pennock's Forum members rock, like usual.

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Tell him you are going to post it on my page www.Fieropacecar.com and maybe he will think about it??? Worth a try I guess. Rick B

quote Originally posted by SuperchargedV6: Tell him you are going to post it on my page www.Fieropacecar.com and maybe he will think about it??? Worth a try I guess. Rick B

At this point, I've mentally written it off as lost money and effort, or at least I'm trying to.

He'd do well to hope that I forget about the whole thing, because if not, I'll take you up on your offer. I don't know how much business he gets from Indy Fiero owners, but judging from my experience, he doesn't deserve any more.

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quote ...Don's got a set of NOS behind the seat. I'm sure for enough bucks he would part with them.

I have parted with over 100 different Fiero items over the years, but have never sold anyone anything. If I have something, and have no use for it, it is free to who ever needs it. I have receieved so much generous help from the Fiero community, that I could give away everything I have and not be paid up.

1. As I said, both my Indys have the rounded Fs in the word "OFFICIAL'. The one I bought in Maryland, that once belonged to R. C. Sherman (He was the 2nd owner of the car, 1989 IHRA Funny Car Champion--drove the Raybestos car)--------- and the one I just drove home yesterday from CenTexIndy.

2. The set of decals behind the seat of the Sherman Indy has rounded Fs as well. They have been back there for a long time evidently, as the paper backing on some of the decals is discolored brownish. The deck decal is all the same color grey imo. The door decals appear to be a dark charcoal color-not black (I am colorblind--so take that for what it is worth--I can tell basic colors but cannot distinquish close shades or tints) I do not think the windshield decal is any good now--it seems to have some sort of crease accross the letter 'O'.

3. I have no idea if the set behind the seat is original OEM or not. They are old, but NOS--I don't know. There are no instructions in the wrapper, and no vendor name anywhere except on the decal backing and it just says "Scotch something or other". (I forgot--I'm old-so shoot me). It is a full set. If I had to guess, I would say they are NOT OEM NOS.
I do not have a digital camera, nor a working scanner right now. (just got a new computer and my old scanner won't work with it)

Has any one ever used decals from these people? Phoenix Graphics. Pricey at $200+, but if they are good might be ok.
http://www.phoenixgraphix.com/gm/1984if.htm

It might be possible there were different versions of the decals, but I doubt it. I would think Pontiac would have had them all printed at the same time?

Considering the replicas are based off the 3 originals (especially car #1) I would use them as an example of what the decals should look like

Fred in #1 (lucky bastard)



In this and other photos I have, Indy #1 obviously doesn't have the rounded F's.

I'm having trouble finding good side pics of GM's #2 car, anyone have a good side pic?

Perhaps this calls for a trip to the IMS museum and pics of the cars as they appeared on race day? Considering what happened to #2's engine I wouldn't be too suprised if they changed the door decals, but I would think #1 would have been pretty well preserved since the race?

Another thought: Maybe someone at the 25th can bring a tape measure and a camera and figure out the correct spacing for decal placement?

quote Originally posted by RWDPLZ: Fred in #1 (lucky bastard)

quote Originally posted by davikan: I'm also concerned about maryjane's decals (not that I even know that he'd want to part with them...), now that we've learned about the rounded-off F issue. All the pictures of the original Indys that I've seen show those Fs with the upper left corner squared off. So, I guess this is yet another Fiero "mystery" that could use some research. (?)

Well, I guess this would be a good point bring up for records on Pacecar.com. This point will be a item I will look at when documenting Indys. I am wondering if recording what style decals are on the car versus VIN would reveal that ?maybe? later run Indy's did have the rounded off F. I agree that manufacturers use what ever is available on the given day that a car is produced. Maybe dealer offered replacement decals were different?? As of to date, I have not recalled seeing an Indy with original decals that were not square. As stated, another mystery to think about.

I took an hour and looked through my Indy stuff and every picture I have of the track Indys and the replica Indys have square Fs. All of the Pace Cars and support vehicles including the Indy Hauler has the square fs.

Fred

WOW 47 posts about a set of almost identical decals.

quote Originally posted by Firefighter: WOW 47 posts about a set of almost identical decals.

Jealousy will get you no where hahahaha. Rick B

quote Originally posted by Firefighter: WOW 47 posts about a set of almost identical decals.

WOW, a whole internet forum about a car most people think is a POS. And yet, we post, and post, and post...

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Fred,
I will put this on my notes to take care of. I should have some good photos of #2. Will check this out as GM did do a complete paint job on #2 and I suppied the correct emblems. The SD was from the scraped Fiero that was black and red with indy interior. Do not know why they had to place the original.

R T

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signature by F-I-E-R-O (My Indy on right / #1 IMS)

quote Originally posted by SuperchargedV6: Jealousy will get you no where hahahaha. Rick B

[This message has been edited by ohioindy (edited 07-18-2008).]

Here is a photo of Indy #2 I took at the 20th


A few from the Tech Center:

[This message has been edited by WingNut - MD (edited 07-18-2008).]

Here are photos of #1 Indy, & #2 Indy (GM) #2 has been completely redone. GM had used a GT nose emblem, and Corvette wings. I supplied GM with a complete correct set of emblems. In my photos it is clear that #2 has rounded F,s you may not be able to tell in these photos, it was very clear when I enlarged the #2 photo. I do not know here GM got there door decals.

R T

#1


#2

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signature by F-I-E-R-O (My Indy on right / #1 IMS)

I was talking with Paced84 tonight on the phone about the decals. We were both zooming in on Indy #2's decals. I played around with them and saved a picture of the decals zoomed in. No doubt about it, the F is rounded.



I took Ron's above photo and placed it here for eaasy comparison of the 2 different types up close

[This message has been edited by WingNut - MD (edited 07-18-2008).]

quote Originally posted by WingNut - MD: I was talking with Paced84 tonight on the phone about the decals. We were both zooming in on Indy #2's decals. I played around with them and saved a picture of the decals zoomed in. No doubt about it, the F is rounded.

So now it's official...it doesn't matter.

quote Originally posted by jscott1: So now it's official...it doesn't matter.

Yikes. I owe an apology to Stencils and Stripes. I guess they DID supply me with accurate reproductions - just not accurate to what I thought were the only "originals."

And, regarding the question about whether it matters or not, I think I still like the squared off Fs, just because that's what's on the first Indy Fiero I ever laid eyes on - in a Pontiac magazine ad. It's a nostalgia thing for me...

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[This message has been edited by davikan (edited 07-18-2008).]

quote Originally posted by jscott1: So now it's official...it doesn't matter.

I'm not so sure about that.

Paced 84 was saying that #2 was restored. They bought the decals from an outside vendor for that car, they did not use NOS decals looking at them against #1, and the pilot production Indy that is at the Glimore Museum.

I'll let Ron chime in, as he knows the whole story. I think what we were trying to show that even GM has the wrong decals on their car, and to most eyes, it would not be caught. Heck we had #1 and #2 at the 20th, about 100 yards away from each other, and no one mentioned that the decals were different between them.

Again note the space between May & 27 on #1 & space between May & 27 on the repo decals

R T

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signature by F-I-E-R-O (My Indy on right / #1 IMS)

quote Originally posted by WingNut - MD: I'm not so sure about that. ... I'll let Ron chime in, as he knows the whole story. I think what we were trying to show that even GM has the wrong decals on their car, and to most eyes, it would not be caught. Heck we had #1 and #2 at the 20th, about 100 yards away from each other, and no one mentioned that the decals were different between them.

I was being somewhat tongue in cheek, (as evidenced by the smiley), but the point is that if GM didn't notice, (or care to ensure the squareness of the F's) then it probably shouldn't matter to a bunch of Pace Car enthusiasts either.

Yes, if #2 was restored recently and they used other incorrect badges, they probably didn't pay attention to that detail. Apparently davikan is the first person to EVER notice it, though. Race day pics of #2 would clear this up for sure.

Is it just me or does the fader strip on #2 look different, too? (in Wingnut's comparison post above)

quote Originally posted by jscott1: I was being somewhat tongue in cheek, (as evidenced by the smiley), but the point is that if GM didn't notice, (or care to ensure the squareness of the F's) then it probably shouldn't matter to a bunch of Pace Car enthusiasts either.

I think I just heard ohioindy hit the floor in his house in Ohio.

I understand what you are saying Jonathon, but I feel the same way davikan (and ohioindy) feel. Stock is the way a car should be. I strive to keep my car 100%, and that is what davikan is doing. If it were me, and I would not accept those decals either, and i would be ticked off too.

One day I hope to own an Indy, and I now know where to get correct decals if I ever need them, and who to avoid. That is what I am taking away from all of this. Also the fact that I need to call GM and help them get a proper set fo decals for #2.

and yes RWDLZ, I agree with you, the red Dot Matrix does look different between the cars as well.

EDIT to say: Sorry I am posting with both of my user names in this thread. it will be so much easier to post once the 25th is over and I can retire this name and go back to being WingNut full time.

[This message has been edited by Fiero 25 - Mark (edited 07-18-2008).]

We should try to preserve these pieces of history, or else restore them as accurately to the originals as possible. Whether or not GM decides to correct the problem is their choice, but I would hope they would agree with us that 'close enough' isn't close enough, and allow us to help them keep it historically accurate. That's the point of keeping these cars around, right? The preservation of history for future generations to enjoy?

It's also obvious that 'Stencils and Stripes' should be avoided from now on. If they can't even be bothered to return davikan's email I'm sure they will not correct their kits, assuming they even care about the quality of their product.

I just took one of my 8x10's off the wall, of the promo car at the speedway, and it definately has the square F's too.

quote Originally posted by Fiero 25 - Mark: I think I just heard ohioindy hit the floor in his house in Ohio. I understand what you are saying Jonathon, but I feel the same way davikan (and ohioindy) feel. Stock is the way a car should be. I strive to keep my car 100%, and that is what davikan is doing. If it were me, and I would not accept those decals either, and i would be ticked off too.

Actually I have been arguing on both side! I say on a daily driver type Indy like mine it doesn't matter, but on a low miles Indy it's NOS all the way.

But if anybody could scare up a set of original decals you think it would be GM...but apparently they bought a set off eBay like anyone else would do when restoring Indy #2.

Which brings me back to my original point, it's nearly impossible to restore an Indy back to original if GM can't even do it.

Paul Mckibben has the best repo decals. Even on the ones he has done for me for my Indy go-cart. The one thing I want to do is call him and have the space between May & 27 moved like to original decal. It is a miner thing, but we need to get as close to the original as possible.

R t

quote Originally posted by paced84: Paul Mckibben has the best repo decals. R t

Totally agree. Paul will get my business someday.

To me, due to the small #s of Indy Fieros still around, and the limited # produced, restorations should be as true to original as possible--IF that is what the owner desires. Few people buy Fieros as an investment, but if any Fiero model ever becomes a true collector's item in the traditional sense, I believe it will be the Indy that does it 1st--not including of course some of the better known modified Fieros, such as PPE etc.
Having said that, attention is in the details, and details are what we are talking about here regarding the correct decaling. For some, it may be a not so significant detail, but for others, it may mean a lot. I would like to know for sure--EXACTLY what the decals were supposed to look like, and evidently, so would a lot of other Indy folks. It does appear that Paul McKibben makes the closest to original decals set. But, this thread has brought up the question about a possible change during the production run. It could be, that both rounded and square 'Fs are correct-depending when your particular Indy was built. If 'correct' relates only to the actual pace cars at the race, the square Fs are the only correct decal. If 'correct' relates to your car as it came from the dealer (assuming the buyer opted to have the decals installed), then it is possible you could have the square Fs and still not be an accurate restoration.

Somewhere, there is a company that made the original decals for the Indy. Somewhere, someone knows if there was a change during the production run.

quote Originally posted by WingNut - MD: I was talking with Paced84 tonight on the phone about the decals. We were both zooming in on Indy #2's decals. I played around with them and saved a picture of the decals zoomed in. No doubt about it, the F is rounded. I took Ron's above photo and placed it here for eaasy comparison of the 2 different types up close

Something I noticed was even though the F's are not rounded take a look at the second line, the N's, A's, and M switch between the two different sets. Rounded F's shows squared second line and Squared F's shows rounded second line. This might be a first edition / second edition thing? Just a guess here tho

quote Originally posted by RWDPLZ: Apparently davikan is the first person to EVER notice it, though.

I'm laughing out loud here! Before this thread, most people who meet up with my life-long tendency towards perfectionism react with, at best, a mild annoyance. To have a bunch of other people find my nitpicking important, especially on something that matters to me as much as one of my Fieros, well... I'm laughing at it, but I feel validated at the same time! Ha! Thanks, peeps.

Anyway, I'm still wondering about the difference between McKibben's and shop_rat45's decals. I have a set on the way from shop_rat45. In pictures posted by Lambo nut on page 1 of this thread, shop_rat45's decals look really good to me. Does anyone have experience with both his and Paul McKibben's?

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Dave,
I refinish WWII rifle stocks and have the largest data base known to exist. People from all over email me or mail me stocks to verify the finest details on authenticity. I can find the fakes with ease so far by seeing things like you did so don't fell like you are goofy. It really helps people when there restoring hobbies.

I am exactly like you in this area and have the 2000 vins almost ready in a complete list but am to upset over about 20 that are tough to tell the last digits. Catch up with me at the 25th and I will have a sneak peak there but am bringing the DGP car which had the front touched up and was painted in the wrong Gold. He promised it to be done by Wed and then this fall they will complete the whole car. .

I hate to make a mistake on the list even if it is just one as my attention to detail is strong. Hell I'm trying to find out what vin number did the gold anodized brake booster go to Black,,& when did the metal paint tag in front of the headlight disappear. My DGP is 7007 car built and has a different E-brake adjuster so know I'm looking for those too . I could go on but then it may appear I have a sickness hahahaha. Buddy I'm here for you if you feel bonkers over details most don't see like us Indy guys do. Are you coming to the Indy Anonymous meeting this week. Rick B

So:

If I'm such a stickler for historical accuracy, maybe I shouldn't be complaining about the 1/8" difference in the height of the letters on my glarestrip. Check out this photo (I assume that this is Indy #1 at Indy. Am I right?)



It looks like the whole "P O N T I A C" droops towards the right.

ARGH! My OCD tendencies are going nuts!

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quote Originally posted by paced84: Paul Mckibben has the best repo decals. R t

quote Originally posted by maryjane: It does appear that Paul McKibben makes the closest to original decals set.

Better then the ones I posted?

I have bought from Paul in the past too, and yes, he makes good stuff, but I fail to see what is wrong with the decals made by shoprat...

Kevin

Yesterday, I finally found a message from "Stencils and Stripes" on my voice mail. Long story short:
- "This project, that project, yadda, yadda, yadda, has been keeping me busy... sorry I didn't get back to you sooner."
- "Can you take your original decal to Kinkos and make copies of it to send to us so we can make you another set?"
- "We can send you a blank to take a rubbing of the glarestrip decal so you can send that to us..." - or something like that. I didn't really listen to the message all that closely.

I spend $118 including shipping, and then wait THIS LONG to get a request for ME to go do MORE WORK so HE can have the information necessary to sell ACCURATE DECALS TO OTHER INDY OWNERS? Yeah, like that's going to happen. I have other "projects" keeping me busy too - for instance, keeping the mortgage paid.

DON'T do business with "Stencils and Stripes."

I'm still eagerly awaiting shop_rat45's decals to get here, and I've also been in contact with Paul McKibben, who seems to have his you--know-what in order. Before I put anything on, I'll do a comparison and let you guys know what I see.

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quote Originally posted by Lambo nut: I have bought from Paul in the past too, and yes, he makes good stuff, but I fail to see what is wrong with the decals made by shoprat... Kevin

Sorry-I certainly didn't mean to imply shop-rat's were less than great--I have not seen them in person, and really can't tell much on my computer screen with my old eyes.
If you saw the font size I have to use, you would know what I mean. Yes, the State of Texas still lets me drive, but just barely.

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 07-26-2008).]

Here are a few shots of what my Indy decals looked like:


A shot of it at the 20th:

quote Originally posted by Fiero5: Here are a few shots of what my Indy decals looked like: A shot of it at the 20th:

Are those Dodge Daytona wheels?

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Yes they are.
They are the closest of any existing production wheels that look similar to the original Indy wheels available.

quote Originally posted by davikan: So: If I'm such a stickler for historical accuracy, maybe I shouldn't be complaining about the 1/8" difference in the height of the letters on my glarestrip. Check out this photo (I assume that this is Indy #1 at Indy. Am I right?) It looks like the whole "P O N T I A C" droops towards the right. ARGH! My OCD tendencies are going nuts!

OK, I need Ron or Fred to attest what car that is. Note the Fleece/Suede interior in the car, versus the Indy interior. I have heard the story from Ron before, however I am not recalling it, and I do not want to mis-speak here.