Reading this thread is getting my blood boiling...
Seeing that Dale and Dave are all over it is a bit comforting, but I think all of us are looking at this and thinking it could be me if my car ever got stolen by a towing company.
The one lesson learned is that in states that have titles...get the paperwork in your name. But once the car is reported stolen I don't see how it could have been sold and retitled without red flags being rasied all over the place.
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04:09 PM
americasfuture2k Member
Posts: 7131 From: Edmond, Oklahoma Registered: Jan 2006
i feel suspicious of the guy since he said he works with the police and the DMV. if he did jack the car to resell it and he knows people in the police dept and DMV, then he has connections and sources to make it look like its been all legit the entire time.
im reposting what i said in the post before yours since mine was the last one of that page, i feel some people might not see it.
there are so many questions running through my head to help this guy identify that it is his, like any special markings on it anywhere hidden under a body panel? a paper or something with a message on it hidden away in some cavity on a part of the car? some love stains anywhere? (seriously, not trying to be funny) i mean a convertable 88 gt is not a common thing. and im sure where ever it was covertabled at would have info about the owner at the time of the conversion. or if one man did it on his own, there has to be some kind of documentation somewhere.
------------------ 1987 Fiero GT built by my brother, merlot566jka, 3500 LX9 from 06 Malibu, WOT-TECH.com 1280 grind stage 3 cam, LS6 valve springs, 1227730 ECM conversion, Darrel Morse solid aluminum cradle mounts, Truleo headers modified to fit the 3500, 36# inectors, 70mm 4.3 throttle body adapted to 3500 intake, ported heads, upper and lower intakes, lightly polished, tcemotorsports.com crank trigger wheel, CenterForce dual friction clutch, Flowtech Afterburner muffler, 2.5" piping, cat deleted, EGR deleted, SinisterPerformance tuning, C6 Corvette exhaust tips. projected to be 35 MPG with a guesstimate of 250 hp to the wheels
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07:31 PM
katatak Member
Posts: 7136 From: Omaha, NE USA Registered: Apr 2008
i feel suspicious of the guy since he said he works with the police and the DMV. if he did jack the car to resell it and he knows people in the police dept and DMV, then he has connections and sources to make it look like its been all legit the entire time.
im reposting what i said in the post before yours since mine was the last one of that page, i feel some people might not see it.
there are so many questions running through my head to help this guy identify that it is his, like any special markings on it anywhere hidden under a body panel? a paper or something with a message on it hidden away in some cavity on a part of the car? some love stains anywhere? (seriously, not trying to be funny) i mean a convertable 88 gt is not a common thing. and im sure where ever it was covertabled at would have info about the owner at the time of the conversion. or if one man did it on his own, there has to be some kind of documentation somewhere.
It has been determined that this is the same car via the VIN number.
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10:28 PM
Aug 16th, 2008
FierOmar Member
Posts: 1644 From: Glendale, California, USA Registered: Dec 2001
Originally posted by jscott1: Reading this thread is getting my blood boiling...
Seeing that Dale and Dave are all over it is a bit comforting, but I think all of us are looking at this and thinking it could be me if my car ever got stolen by a towing company.
Actually, Dale and I are not all over it. PaulJK needs some kudos for recognizing the car. Others have attempted to find out more information regarding the current owner of the car (e.g. Chicken McNizzle), and Toddster has offered to prevail on some of his contacts. Dale looked to me for a couple legal opinions and/or general statements of the law which I have given. Otherwise, I have spoken briefly with Steve M. who filled in some of the facts which of course I am ethically bound to keep confidential. I have read on this forum that Steve is working closely with the local police, but cannot confirm whether he is or is not doing so.
Generally, a civil action will be deferred until a deicision regarding whether to file any criminal charges has been made. However, there is nothing that requirest a criminal proceeding proceed before a civil action.
------------------ FierOmar
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12:16 AM
m0sh_man Member
Posts: 8460 From: south charleston WV 25309 Registered: Feb 2002
Still attempting to unload it.... (Ed Parks Fiero list on Yahoo)
Looks like a nice car, if it wasn't Red, if it wasn't a convertable and if the guy didn't make a mistake on the price. Hey wait a minute, I have a car like that in the garage http://losangeles.craigslis...t/cto/799714525.html
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(Ed has nothing to do with this.... I found it on his list posted by the "seller" )
Perhaps telling California 9 (TV station) mabye their NEWS dept could help?
[This message has been edited by htexans1 (edited 08-18-2008).]
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12:55 AM
Toddster Member
Posts: 20871 From: Roswell, Georgia Registered: May 2001
Just go out to take a look at it, stick Your keys in the ignition, and drive Your car home. LoL After all, how can you steal your Own car...
I wouldn't try that. One of my brothers gave the keys to a car to a girl who wanted to test drive it before buying it. She went down and registered the car in her name. My brother couldn't get it back, even with the police. The girl never payed one cent on the car. Police told him that it was registered in her name and it was in her possession. Even witnesses as to true ownership had no bearing.
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07:48 AM
FierOmar Member
Posts: 1644 From: Glendale, California, USA Registered: Dec 2001
Originally posted by fierofool: I wouldn't try that. One of my brothers gave the keys to a car to a girl who wanted to test drive it before buying it. She went down and registered the car in her name. My brother couldn't get it back, even with the police. The girl never payed one cent on the car. Police told him that it was registered in her name and it was in her possession. Even witnesses as to true ownership had no bearing.
I am a bit surprised, but then again I don't know all the facts (e.g. how the girl got the title; how long it was before she registered the car in her name, etc.).
In California, a theft may be committed by false pretenses or by trick. Although fraud is used to obtain the property in both theft by trick and theft by false pretense, in theft by false pretense, the thief obtains both possession and title to the property. For theft by trick, the thief gains only possession of the property. (People v. Ashley (1954) 42 Cal.2d 246, 258; People v. Randono (1973) 32 Cal.App.3d 164, 172.) False pretenses does not require that the title pass perfectly and the victim may even retain a security interest in the property transferred to the defendant. (People v. Counts (1995) 31 Cal.App.4th 785, 789–792.)
I wouldn't rely on the police to render an opinion regarding civil liability. For the most part, they have little, if any, training relating to civil law. In addition, when a police officer is evaluating a case, he must consider whether the case can be proven "beyond a reasonable doubt" which is a much higher standard than the "preponderance of the evidence" rule which is required to establish civil liability. . Moreover, in California, a criminal jury verdict must be unanimous in contrast to a civil jury verdict where only 9 of the 12 jurors must agree.
If the circumstances surrounding your brother's case occurred within the past 3-4 years, he may want to consult with a civil attorney.
Having said all that, I do agree that it is not a good idea to engage in some form of self-help (i.e. using the original key to start and take the car).
------------------ FierOmar
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10:14 AM
kevin Member
Posts: 2722 From: Elk Grove, CA USA Registered: Jan 2000
Fellas, Why not find the car and subsequently attach a 'boot" around the tire to prevent it from being driven? You can buy these "boots" on e-bay and elsewhere. This tactic may allow you to buy some time to find original title and uncover a theif. When my Vette was stolen, I simply took my spare key and drove my car home; (I had to find my car first-but I did).
Cordially, Kevin
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12:20 PM
PFF
System Bot
DeLorean00 Member
Posts: 4251 From: Sacramento, CA / Reno, NV Registered: Aug 2005
As always FireOmar is correct. The officer who arrives to this call is only going to look at who the registered owner is. If your name is not on the title of this Fiero and you took it, you will get booked on grand theft auto and then you will have to hope to prove your case in court. The officer will not look at all the evidence and weigh a decision on the side of the road, its not his job. This would be a case where the good guy goes to jail and the bad guy gets a pat on the back and your car again.
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12:28 PM
fierofool Member
Posts: 12916 From: Auburn, Georgia USA Registered: Jan 2002
It was back in the 90's when he had the car for sale. It was several days before he reported it, because the girl (someone he knew) kept telling him that she was working with getting it financed. By the time he wised up and it was reported, she had already registered it, and he made the comment to the officer that he still had the spare key. The officer advised him that if the car was registered in her name, he would be charged with theft if he took the car. He was told he'd have to go to Magistrate's court to try to get the car back. Here, you don't need a title if the car's 1985 or older. I registered my current 85 GT on a hand written bill of sale from the junk yard. Didn't even have a VIN # written on it.
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12:33 PM
DeLorean00 Member
Posts: 4251 From: Sacramento, CA / Reno, NV Registered: Aug 2005
I do title work in California at my job and I have conducted many lien sales for clients in the past. I have a good idea on what was done to make this lien go through. If anyone close to this case would like to talk to me about lien's feel free to PM me your number and a time to call. I dont want to post it on the forum, although it is public information I fear that it could lead to more cases like this. Lets just say there are loop holes in the California DMV system that can get you a title on a car you dont own.
[This message has been edited by DeLorean00 (edited 08-18-2008).]
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12:44 PM
jscott1 Member
Posts: 21676 From: Houston, TX , USA Registered: Dec 2001
Flagged it... if he posts it on eBay let's all bid 1 million dollars
Remind me not to ever loan my keys to anyone if I'm passing through Georgia.
Here in Texas you can't register a car without a title, unless you post a bond. Then when the owner shows up looking for their car, (with a title) the bogus registerer, (i.e. thief) has to pay off the bond.
[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 08-18-2008).]
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01:26 PM
FierOmar Member
Posts: 1644 From: Glendale, California, USA Registered: Dec 2001
Originally posted by DeLorean00: As always FireOmar is correct. The officer who arrives to this call is only going to look at who the registered owner is. If your name is not on the title of this Fiero and you took it, you will get booked on grand theft auto and then you will have to hope to prove your case in court. The officer will not look at all the evidence and weigh a decision on the side of the road, its not his job. This would be a case where the good guy goes to jail and the bad guy gets a pat on the back and your car again.
For the record, I have it on good authority that I am not always correct. But, with the title in another person's name, one could be arrested for a crime even if not formally charged at a later date. Still a PITA.
Nevertheless, there is a more important consideration; engaging is some form of self-help can lead to a violent encounter. Either the law is on your side, or it isn't. If it is, you will eventially prevail. If it isn't, engaging in any form of self-help can only cause you more problems.
As for the boot idea, California allows recovery for a trespass to personal property which is a lesser deprivation that a conversion. So, not such a good idea.
If the Santa Monica Police Department is not willing to intervene because the crime allegedly occurred in the Marina Del Rey area, then go to the police agency that is responsible for that area (LAPD if I recall correctly). Otherwise, file a civil action and request a temporary injunction prohibiting a sale until such time as the issues have been resolved (a bond may be required). You don't need your title in hand to commence a civil action, and depending on the circumstances, may not need to produce it at trial.
------------------ FierOmar
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03:25 PM
Songman Member
Posts: 12496 From: Nashville, TN Registered: Aug 2000
Something MAJORLY illegal is going on here!! I was in contact with my friend that owns a tow company and here are the facts. IT IS ILLEGAL FOR A TOW COMPANY TO OPERATE ANY TOWED VEHICLES OFF OF THERE PROPERTY UNTIL THE LEIN SALE IS COMPLETED AND THE HAVE NO OPPOSITION! So the fact the the car was towed on 5/27/08 and emission tested on 6/2/08 means the TOW COMPANY BROKE THE LAW! This means whoever the company was that towed this vehicle could lose there license to operate! To complete a lien sale on a vehicle worth under $4000 it takes minimum of 31-41 days!
DATES AS POSTED
5/27/08 - thread states that car was recently stolen from garage
6/02/08 - emissions test transmital to DMV office
7/3/08 - title changed to new owner in Santa Monica
[This message has been edited by DeLorean00 (edited 08-18-2008).]
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10:57 PM
Aug 19th, 2008
DeLorean00 Member
Posts: 4251 From: Sacramento, CA / Reno, NV Registered: Aug 2005
FierOmar and I had a conversation about this car. I cannot discuss any real details here for obvious reasons. But if the Steve chooses to want this car back, I think we have some strong strategies to assist him in his battle.
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02:41 AM
Shad0wguy Member
Posts: 867 From: Long Island, NY Registered: Aug 2006
Something MAJORLY illegal is going on here!! I was in contact with my friend that owns a tow company and here are the facts. IT IS ILLEGAL FOR A TOW COMPANY TO OPERATE ANY TOWED VEHICLES OFF OF THERE PROPERTY UNTIL THE LEIN SALE IS COMPLETED AND THE HAVE NO OPPOSITION! So the fact the the car was towed on 5/27/08 and emission tested on 6/2/08 means the TOW COMPANY BROKE THE LAW! This means whoever the company was that towed this vehicle could lose there license to operate! To complete a lien sale on a vehicle worth under $4000 it takes minimum of 31-41 days!
DATES AS POSTED
5/27/08 - thread states that car was recently stolen from garage
6/02/08 - emissions test transmital to DMV office
7/3/08 - title changed to new owner in Santa Monica
It was already determined the car was taken illegally from a locked storage facility that the owner had permits to park in. He was never informed of the tow and neither was the landlord, so for all intents and purposes the tow company was already breaking the law by trespassing, so this is just the icing on the already very tall cake.
[This message has been edited by Shad0wguy (edited 08-19-2008).]
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09:28 AM
FTF Engineering Member
Posts: 710 From: Near Philadelphia PA Registered: Sep 2001
Wait. Wait. Wait... Let me see if I understand this correctly...
Some Fiero with illegal Kentucky plates sat for MONTHS in the exact same spot in a parking lot at an apartment complex in California and eventually got towed as abandoned? So what's the surprise there???
Why didn't they get in touch with the owner? Let's see...
The California DMV knows nothing about that car. Their records, correctly, have no link between any CA resident and that car. The VIN, correctly, comes up blank to them as it should.
The Kentucky DMV knows nothing about that car either. Their records, also correctly, have no link between any KY resident and that car. So when you come up blank on the VIN, you tell them that the car carried KY plates but as far as KY is concerned, those plates were on that car illegally. There's no link between that KY plate and that car.
The only DMV that knows ANYTHING about the car is the Illinois DMV and how would the CA DMV know that...
quote
Originally posted by Songman: Steve had it parked in a security lot at his friend's apartment building. There is a normal parking area and then there is a 'storage' area. Steve's car was properly tagged and legally parked in the storage area.
I notice that you didn't mention "locked" in your description of the storage area. Was this 'security lot' in fact locked? Also, what does "properly tagged" mean? An IL car with KY plates on it isn't "properly tagged" where I come from.
I suspect that someone from the apartment complex got tired of looking at that car and complained to the office. Someone in the office took the complaint and asked around the office and nobody knew who's car that was or remembered why it was there. They probably posted some notice in the office and probably put a warning sticker on the windshield, nobody in the complex spoke up, and the rest is history.
So my questions are:
If this car truly was in a "locked storage facility", then who unlocked that facility to let the tow company in? Has anyone asked the towing company who called them to come get the car? Has anyone asked the towing company on what date did they tow it?
I'm on Steve's side here, but in order to get to the bottom of it you have to look at it from all angles. Someone did something they should not have done here, but I'm not sure who... I'm thinking that the only thing Steve can do is to sit down with the cops in the district where the car was towed and lay out the whole story in four part harmony and hope that he gets a sympathetic ear who's willing to listen to the whole thing from start to finish and then go investigate to figure out exactly who did what. I just hope that Steve is able to get the car back and isn't caught up by a legal technicality that makes it so he loses it for good.
Wishing the best of luck sorting it out... This is probably going to get more interesting before it's all resolved.
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12:55 PM
PFF
System Bot
Songman Member
Posts: 12496 From: Nashville, TN Registered: Aug 2000
Excuse my syntax error... What I should have said was 'properly stickered'. Meaning that there were fees paid to the apartment complex to allow the car to sit there. Steve's friend lives there and had a right to allow Steve to park there. It was a 'secure' lot, different than their regular parking lot. Like somewhere you might park an RV or boat. Locked? I have no idea. But it is not hard to get into a locked parking lot. Just wait for someone else to go in or out.
Since the car was not on a public street, it wouldn't matter if it had a Mickey Mouse license plate on it. I've got two vehicles I bought sitting here on my property without legal CA plates on them too. And until I am ready to put them on the street they will stay that way. That doesn't invite someone to come steal my car. And that is exactly what happened here.
The DMV can search nationwide for a car by the VIN number. And that is what is REQUIRED for a lien sale. Again, the plate doesn't matter.
Steve has spoken with the powers at the apartment building and they said that they did not have the car towed.
Sitting down with the involved police departments is exactly what Steve has been doing. But as this 'new owner' keeps bragging, he has connections at the DMV and with the police. It all happened too fast, and too many procedures not followed correctly, for this person to be able to keep the car. If there is any justice in the world at all, Steve will get his car back. But that is what scares me. I don't know that there is.
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02:04 PM
FTF Engineering Member
Posts: 710 From: Near Philadelphia PA Registered: Sep 2001
The reason I asked about it being locked is that it may help figure out who did what wrong. If the car was not behind locked access, then it's easier to believe that the tow company took it upon themselves to take the car without the apartment complex being consulted first. I'm sure no expert in this field, but I would LIKE to believe that this kind of thing is rare.
On the other hand, if the lot WAS locked, then I would believe it's more likely that someone in the apartment complex called them and unlocked it for them and let them in. More likely at least then them sitting there stalking the lot just waiting for their opportunity to jump in there behind someone else and nab that Fiero so they could 'sell it at an auction and all get rich from the proceedings'. I gotta believe that they've got better things to do with their time than stalk and steal abandon looking Fieros. If you're going to play that game, at least make the target a lucrative one... Something that's worth the risk of getting caught! (Maybe they thought it was a Ferrari? )
I understand that Steve spoke with the powers at the apartment building and they said that they did not have the car towed. That doesn't mean they didn't have the car towed. That just means they're saying they didn't have the car towed. Why would the apartment complex have it towed and then deny it later? Lots of reasons. Maybe the person Steve talked to isn't the one that made the call and never asked the person who did. Or maybe they now realize they screwed up and are trying to cover their tracks. Who knows?
That's why I asked "Has anyone asked the towing company who called them to come get the car?" The police should make this call. That's also why I asked if anyone has identified the actual tow date? The police should ask that as well. Might help piece together who-did-what-wrong-when.
quote
Originally posted by Songman: Sitting down with the involved police departments is exactly what Steve has been doing. But as this 'new owner' keeps bragging, he has connections at the DMV and with the police. It all happened too fast, and too many procedures not followed correctly, for this person to be able to keep the car. If there is any justice in the world at all, Steve will get his car back. But that is what scares me. I don't know that there is.
Yeah, I hear ya. That's my fear as well. I worry that "justice" is sometimes difficult to achieve.
IMHO "Justice" in this situation would be for it not have to end up in a courtroom and for the current CA owner to sell the car back to Steve for $1.00 and for either the apartment complex or the towing company (whoever's mistake started this whole mess) to reimburse the current CA owner for all his expenses including the purchase price, taxes, titling costs, and the dollars spent getting the car fixed and smogged. That way, Steve gets his car back (with a LEGITIMATE CA TITLE this time) and the current CA owner comes out nothing gained, nothing lost.
So...... What are the chances that happens?
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09:50 PM
Aug 20th, 2008
Songman Member
Posts: 12496 From: Nashville, TN Registered: Aug 2000
I think the problem with the entire scenario is that the tow company has obviously not followed procedure about the lien sale so I would have a hard time believing that they would about anything else. I don't know this particular apartment complex but most I believe only have a couple of people working in administration on site. Steve talked to the manager. That is the person who most likely would have made the call, or would know if such a call were made. Obviously, they could be lying. But again, since the tow company has shown to be not worried about proper procedure in the rest of the scenario, I would expect the same from them elsewhere.But I agree, any paperwork the tow company has should be brought to light and I am sure it is being done. There is undoubtedly a lot going on that is not being posted on this forum.
Also, look at Steve's car. At this point in history, a lot of people wouldn't even recognize it as a Fiero. In L.A., if you see a hot red convertible, chances are it is a Ferrari. And while it is true that Steve's car was in storage, it is far from abandoned looking. Again, look at the speed in which all this happened. Obviously, they had no trouble getting the car sold. It's almost like they already had a buyer. Hmmmmm.
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10:40 AM
Fierobsessed Member
Posts: 4782 From: Las Vegas, NV Registered: Dec 2001
I have a feeling that someone spotted the car, and wanted it.
A few of us have spotted abandoned cars on the side of the road, and sucsessfully through proper channels have obtained these cars, with patience of course.
Now, if I worked for the Police and DMV, I bet I could make that happen pretty fast, and bypass the patience part.
I don't know. But It just seems to make sence.
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03:04 PM
kevin Member
Posts: 2722 From: Elk Grove, CA USA Registered: Jan 2000
Time for an attorney, if one has not already been called. I had this happen before on my Ferrari. It was taken away from me as it was worked on in a garage, and then locked in a private storage facility. From there it was moved to a new "owner" who tried to claim ownership. My attorney not only turned around the DMV onwenership issue, but also got punitive damages to boot.
Cordially, Kevin
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06:29 PM
katatak Member
Posts: 7136 From: Omaha, NE USA Registered: Apr 2008
I have a feeling that someone spotted the car, and wanted it.
A few of us have spotted abandoned cars on the side of the road, and sucsessfully through proper channels have obtained these cars, with patience of course.
Now, if I worked for the Police and DMV, I bet I could make that happen pretty fast, and bypass the patience part.
I don't know. But It just seems to make sence.
Ditto!
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07:43 PM
americasfuture2k Member
Posts: 7131 From: Edmond, Oklahoma Registered: Jan 2006
I have a feeling that someone spotted the car, and wanted it.
A few of us have spotted abandoned cars on the side of the road, and sucsessfully through proper channels have obtained these cars, with patience of course.
Now, if I worked for the Police and DMV, I bet I could make that happen pretty fast, and bypass the patience part.
I don't know. But It just seems to make sence.
agreed
------------------ 1987 Fiero GT built by my brother, merlot566jka, 3500 LX9 from 06 Malibu, WOT-TECH.com 1280 grind stage 3 cam, LS6 valve springs, 1227730 ECM conversion, Darrel Morse solid aluminum cradle mounts, Truleo headers modified to fit the 3500, 36# inectors, 70mm 4.3 throttle body adapted to 3500 intake, ported heads, upper and lower intakes, lightly polished, tcemotorsports.com crank trigger wheel, CenterForce dual friction clutch, Flowtech Afterburner muffler, 2.5" piping, cat deleted, EGR deleted, SinisterPerformance tuning, C6 Corvette exhaust tips. projected to be 35 MPG with a guesstimate of 250 hp to the wheels
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10:05 PM
Aug 21st, 2008
DeLorean00 Member
Posts: 4251 From: Sacramento, CA / Reno, NV Registered: Aug 2005
This is probably going to get more interesting before it's all resolved.
just waiting for their opportunity to jump in there behind someone else and nab that Fiero so they could 'sell it at an auction and all get rich from the proceedings'. I gotta believe that they've got better things to do with their time than stalk and steal abandon looking Fieros. If you're going to play that game, at least make the target a lucrative one... Something that's worth the risk of getting caught! (Maybe they thought it was a Ferrari? 
