Well its official, I got an executive grant (read: permission from wife) to go forward with my engine swap! Of course she hadn't finished saying yes before I whipped out my cell phone and purchased the engine.

The car:
75k mile 1988 GT 5MT. Currently KFG turbo'd mostly stock engine. (turbo kit for sale BTW)

The donor:
1998 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP with 103k miles. All stock.

The plan:
Pretty much stock engine mated to my original getrag 5MT. I figure it will be eaiser to get it in and running before messing about with it. I dont want to hack or cut my 88 up so I will retain the trunk and want NOT to modify the chassis if possible.

A few things I need to consider are:
Who's front engine mount? - Thinking Rockcrawls because you can use a stock or stock type performance replacement mount. I have all Rodney Dickman poly mounts. Purchased Rockcrawl
Dogbone solution- If it will bolt to the engine bay DB mount, that'd be great. made my own
PWR steering delete solution Rockcrawl
A/C line. I should be able to get this made here locally at Florida Rubber.
Wiring harness. I called Jim at Injection Technologies but he is 2 weeks out and takes only money order or cashiers check. So I need a faster, yet just as reliable option. bought from Injection Technology
OBD1 or OBD2? I have a 7730 ECU, Moates Ostrich & ALDL cable if needed but I am leaning toward the original OBD2 ECU.Brunton Automotive supplied a reprogrammed '99 GTP ECU
Clutch? Hmm after reading many threads I see most love SPEC. I have never had any good luck with them in the past. I have done VERY well with the ACT ceramic/metallic 6 puck clutch in my 430whp EVO. Suggestions? purchased SPEC stage 3 w/ aluminum flywheel from IMPORT IMAGE for $650 shipped

This will be my 9th Fiero engine swap but my 1st 3800.

Any advise or help would be appreciated. I take advise well and am not afraid to ask questions to get the job done right. I discovered long ago if you want to be truly good at something you have to be able to take your ego out of the equation and listen. BIG thanks to Dennis L, Rockcrawl, Mustangsbware & Brunton for all the help so far!!!!
------------------
1988 Fiero GT turbo. 2001 3800sc swap in progress!
2005 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution 430whp
Nurburgring WARRIOR!!!!
Join fellow racers/owners at http://southeasternracing.com

[This message has been edited by BV MotorSports (edited 09-18-2008).]

For the front mount just pick the cheapest one if you dont wanna make one yourself. You can make your own out of the stock 3800 mount if it comes with the setup. They all work the same and really not alot of differance in the ones out there.

Mount the Alt low like everyone else has and you can use the stock 3800 dogbone mount which will line up with the Fiero dogbone holder on the firewall. You can use the stock 3800 Alt for the low mount setup and be go to go. This will also take care of the PS delete issue.

The only person I can say for the wiring harness at this time would be Dan(FieroFlyer) up in Canada. Good price for a plug/play harness and about a one month turn around. Or take the time and do it yourself, there are alot of Threads out there that makes it easy.

Go with a Spec 3 clutch and you will not have any problems in that area. Get the 3800 RWD flywheel cutdown or Spec offers a aluminuim flywheel that is ready to go.

With the 5 speed you can go with either OBD1 or 2 being they both work. If you go with Dan then you can have him program the PCM for OBD2 or Ryan can help you with either OBD1/2.


Use the stock manifold, port them out and have then coated to cut down on the heat. With these you will not have to cut the trunk and have room to use a CAT if needed. Use of course 3 inch mandrel bends for the exhaust into a high flow muffler.

You say bonestock but with a 4 inch CAI, good flowing exhaust and programming, you can drop to a 3.4 pulley. The 3.4 pulley is really stock when the 3800 is installed in a Fiero.

If you can get the 65E trans with the motor then grab it also. You will soon enough be wanting more HP out of the 3800 and will need the trans.

Called SPEC today. Oddly they wanted me to call back tomorrow. The quote I got for the clutch/flywheel was $672.60. + shipping. Hmm I could go with the stock 4T65HD and swap it in for less than that. GRRRRRRRR

[This message has been edited by BV MotorSports (edited 09-09-2008).]

quote Originally posted by BV MotorSports: Called SPEC today. Oddly they wanted me to call back tomorrow. The quote I got for the clutch/flywheel was $672.60. + shipping. Hmm I could go with the stock 4T65HD and swap it in for less than that. GRRRRRRRR

If you wanna keep the 5 speed then you can get the Spec clutch cheaper from another vendor and just stick with the cut down 3800 flywheel. If the 5 speed isnt a must then I would say go with the 65E that comes with the motor and never have to worry about your trans. The only differance keeping the 65E is you have to go with OBD2 wiring/tuning(unless you use a TCU) and you have to buy a few more mounts.

I am going to call the yard tomorrow and see what they want if I include the trans as well. They gave me 1/2 off (trade price) on the motor so maybe I can sweet talk them into giving me another good deal. I agree the stock 4T65HD would be the better choice since it was made tyo handle the 3800sc in the first place. Ed Parks told me pretty much the same thing when I installed my first 4.9. Back then I converted my 87GT to auto as well. I was hoping not to go through the grief of swapping out pedal boxes again! LOL

But, I sure to like to shift my own gears.

quote Originally posted by BV MotorSports: Any vendor in mind? I am too used to dealing with Evo vendors. Most dont even know what a Fiero is!

Do a search for a vendor that others have used for a Spec clutch. You can find a cheaper price for the clutch if you don't go thru Spec.

My first 3800 was an auto into a 5 speed car. I did it the easy way and tied back clutch pedal and bypassed the safety switch. Its easier that swapping pedal out but looks a little funny.

The car:

88 GT, 5MT 75k miles.

Not a lot to report today:

SPEC clutch & flywheel ordered- $650 shipped.
Ordered the wiring harness from Injection Technologies- $650
Found Brunton Auto (builders of the Stalker 3800sc kit car) will supply my reflashed OBD2 ECU. Funny thing is that they use IT's wiring harness so this is going to work out great! - $250 for the ECU w/ flash to my specs.

quote Originally posted by BV MotorSports: Not a lot to report today: SPEC clutch & flywheel ordered- $650 shipped. Ordered the wiring harness from Injection Technologies- $650 Found Brunton Auto (builders of the Stalker 3800sc kit car) will supply my reflashed OBD2 ECU. Funny thing is that they use IT's wiring harness so this is going to work out great! - $250 for the ECU w/ flash to my specs.

WOW, $250 for a UNKNOWN dude to flash your pcm.... For $60 or less you could have shipped it out to a few forum members, and got more support, experience, ect......

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: WOW, $250 for a UNKNOWN dude to flash your pcm.... For $60 or less you could have shipped it out to a few forum members, and got more support, experience, ect......

Unknown?
http://www.bruntonauto.com/

I did mention thats ECU & a flash for $250, right? They are also in Florida (just a few hrs away) and are used to tuning cars for our temps, humidity and altitude. Plus when Justin and I were talking about road racing and the difference in tuning for it, I knew I found the right place. So not to step on your toes but if they know how to build and tune cars ready for the track, answer the phone when I call and was recommended by a long time associate, Jim of Injection Technologies, it was a no brainer.

quote Originally posted by BV MotorSports: Unknown? http://www.bruntonauto.com/ I did mention thats ECU & a flash for $250, right? They are also in Florida (just a few hrs away) and are used to tuning cars for our temps, humidity and altitude. Plus when Justin and I were talking about road racing and the difference in tuning for it, I knew I found the right place. So not to step on your toes but if they know how to build and tune cars ready for the track, answer the phone when I call and was recommended by a long time associate, Jim of Injection Technologies, it was a no brainer.

+1

The Stalker has been around for a good while, has good support in DM/EM scca auto-x, and the folks @ Brunton really know their stuff. I'm pretty sure they know their way around the ECU since they get the 2.8/3.4/3800 to behave in a front engine/rear wheel drive setup.

I've emailed them/called them too........very responsive to both, even to someone that was just doing research and not buying immediately.

Would hardly call them unknown.........................h3ll I even see them advertising in Grassroots Motorsports in every issue. That would imply revenue and an advertising budget, too


BV -- good luck with the swap -- looks nice already!!!


-jeff d
Fiero/TVR/Puma owner.......................might build a stalker w/ a 3800SC one day

[This message has been edited by fierov8 (edited 09-10-2008).]

Thanks Jeff. I agree those guys at Brunton really have their act together.

if you want to row through the gears, and you dont modify the 3800 s/c too much the getrag should hold up alright for an experienced driver, just dont go out and expect to beat on it like a 16 year old that never drove a stick.....

best option though is to get a spare getrag or two just for the hell of it.

matthew

Talk to Purple Reighn, he makes some of the best mounts around cheap too imo. He is putting down some crazy power and has proven his concept.

May I suggest you take the Getrag apart, send all the internals to 300 Below to get Cryo Treated (they can also do the case halves if you like), do, or have someone do a full rebuild on the trans. The Cryo Treatment isn't that expensive to do and it hardens/stress relieves the metal (in some cases up to 300% improvement in strength). You may want to talk to them about your halve shafts as well.

Neither one of my Getrags that I've had treated have failed me yet.

Link:
http://www.300below.com/

Thanks for the advise guys. I've been around Fieros long enough to know the stock gearbox is not the um.. strongest GM ever made. I doubt I'll be out there launching it or powershifting. I have the original 4T65HD that came with the 3800sc for a later date if needed. Luck favors the prepared as they say.
As for mounts the only one I need, at the present, is the front lower. I picked one up From John aka Rockcrawl. It was actually nice to catch up with him. I dont think I have spoken with him in 6 years or so.

Oh and Mosh... about 5-6 year ago I sold you a 3.4. I dropped it off at your house on my way to IL to pick up a v8 RX7 to repair for a guy after a botched installation.

Cali Kid I used a company in the UK to cryo treat the brake rotors on my JDM ver8 STi powered '02 WRX and later on my '05 EVO. I was killing brake rotors with all the track days I did. Unfortunately even the cryo couldnt save the Evo's Brembos during my Nurburgring trip!

[This message has been edited by BV MotorSports (edited 09-10-2008).]

Picked up the motor today. Pics and update tomorrow. Guru's get ready for some dumb questions!

On my project my thought processes were:

Inspection of parts for micro cracks: Mental Confidence Factor Improvement 30%
Cryo Treat all trans metal internals: Mental Confidence Factor Improvement 30%
Phantom grip to spread torque load: Mental Confidence Factor Improvement 10%
Complete rebuild of transmission: Mental Confidence Factor Improvement 30%

Honestly, this mental conditioning helped with putting my foot into the throttle and banging gears hard. I just figure that even if I really only get a 20% improvement in strength, it's better than doing nothing at all. The time bomb is always ticking, you just try to put some distance between you and it.

[This message has been edited by California Kid (edited 09-12-2008).]

OK I got the motor. Turns out the one I wanted, 2001 GTP, had 181k miles on it. Sooooooo, I didnt buy it. What I got was a '98 GTP motor w/ 103k. Its more miles than I prefer but $450 complete w/ ECU is hard to resist. The oil & coolant are clean as well as the rest of the car. It looked pretty well maintained overall. The GTP got side swiped.
EDIT: The yard dented in the bottom of the oil pan... gotta get one of those too.

Engine:





Quick clean up and various bits removed:


Correct oil filter adapter?


Curious what you guys do here:


I am pretty sure the coil/idler mount bracket wont clear the decklid hinge. What do I do, just cut the top section off that the coil pack bolts to?

[This message has been edited by BV MotorSports (edited 09-12-2008).]

Good deal. Correct oil adapter. You can actually re drill the GTP mount and use it, but I think you said you bought a custom mount from crawler so.... Cut the top finger off of the bracket and use it.

quote Originally posted by Emc209i: Good deal. Correct oil adapter. You can actually re drill the GTP mount and use it, but I think you said you bought a custom mount from crawler so.... Cut the top finger off of the bracket and use it. Edit: off of the top. Not the pulley boss on the right side, the finger on the top with the flat surface.

oops

[This message has been edited by Emc209i (edited 09-12-2008).]

Well other thasn swapping the valve covers and replacing the oil pan, I made no further progress. Still need to sort out the alt and idler pulley.

The orange sensor on the side of the oil pan- I assume its and oil level or temp sensor. Is it used in the swap or can I remove and plug it?


New oil pan

valve covers swapped

[This message has been edited by BV MotorSports (edited 09-14-2008).]

quote Originally posted by BV MotorSports: The orange sensor on the side of the oil pan- I assume its and oil level or temp sensor. Is it used in the swap or can I remove and plug it?

It is not used and can be let as is or plug it if you want.

quote Originally posted by BV MotorSports: OK I got the motor. Turns out the one I wanted, 2001 GTP, had 181k miles on it. Sooooooo, I didnt buy it. What I got was a '98 GTP motor w/ 103k. Its more miles than I prefer but $450 complete w/ ECU is hard to resist. The oil & coolant are clean as well as the rest of the car. It looked pretty well maintained overall. The GTP got side swiped. EDIT: The yard dented in the bottom of the oil pan... gotta get one of those too. Engine: Correct oil filter adapter? Curious what you guys do here: I am pretty sure the coil/idler mount bracket wont clear the decklid hinge. What do I do, just cut the top section off that the coil pack bolts to?

You can use that adapter but I don't know why you'd want to, other than it came with the motor. That adapter puts the filter directly above the cradle rail which should make it fun to get off with the motor in the car. A better option is the one made for the 96 - 02 L36 camaro. Still available from GM. It puts the filter straight out the side where there's lots of room. GM part # 12569217

You just have to grind that whole bracket off. It's pretty thick where it joins the coil bracket but an angle grinder will take it off.

[This message has been edited by GT-maniac (edited 09-14-2008).]

quote Originally posted by BV MotorSports: Oh and Mosh... about 5-6 year ago I sold you a 3.4. I dropped it off at your house on my way to IL to pick up a v8 RX7 to repair for a guy after a botched installation.

Oh, i remember, always did, i still have that motor in my 87GT, starts up and runs great everytime i turn the key, i wish it had more power, but the 3.4L is not worth the toruble when the 3800's are so cheap and easy to swap in.

i remember you and your buddy had a 3.4L DOHC race car.

currently i have:

1984 t-top car with 3800 series II n/a 3.65 4 speed tranny
1984 indy pace car (donor body/interior for a 88 coupe auto)
1987GT 3.4L pushrod 5 speed (the motor i got from you)
1988 coupe 3.4L pushrod 4 speed 3.65 ratio, completely wingless fastback body with GT interior.
1988 coupe 2.3L highoutput quad4 getrag 5 speed, 87SE style body.
1988 coupe 2.5L auto, bone stock for now but its going to get the indy's body/interior.

matthew

edit:

ive got a 2001 buick regal 3800 s/c motor with trans/wiring and ECM on my back porch, just gotta figure out which car it goes in.

matthew

[This message has been edited by m0sh_man (edited 09-14-2008).]

Glad that 3.4 is still working for ya. I knew it was a good one! My friend Garth always wanted a quad4 Fiero. His 3.4TDC has been wasting away in his driveway for a while now. I keep trying to get him excited about it again. He always tried to get me back into Fieros but I moved on to a few Skylines, a highly modded WRX and then the Evo. Unfortunately Garth works for the gov't and is never home. He swares one day he is going to send it to fastfieros for some crazy swap but I dont know how much of his Fiero will be left by then. Last I heard it was running low 12's and NOPI banned him.

[This message has been edited by BV MotorSports (edited 09-14-2008).]

I was thinking, why cant I use Rockcrawls pwr steering delete pulley and leave the rest as is (except the coil pack/idler bracket)? I'm gussing the alt sets a bit too high and even cutting the bottom of the decklid brace wouldnt be enough?

You can leave the Alt the way it is but will have to cut the decklid for clearance. Looks better to mount it down low and it takes care of the PS pulley issue.

quote Originally posted by BV MotorSports: I was thinking, why cant I use Rockcrawls pwr steering delete pulley and leave the rest as is (except the coil pack/idler bracket)? I'm gussing the alt sets a bit too high and even cutting the bottom of the decklid brace wouldnt be enough?

On my 3800SC swap, I left the alternator in the orginal location but found a smaller GM version, can't remember what it came off of at this point, clocked it and it fits just fine. If I had to do it again, I'd probably move it to the Power Steering Pump location though. At the time, I had concerns about the Alt sitting down there where a lot more road grime, moisture and BS is picked up off the road. I've seen the alt in the PS Pump location on a number of different cars now and think it a good location. What can I say, live and learn.

Ron

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 09-15-2008).]

Ok here we go. 70amp mini alt w/ bracket. Now I just need to fab up a mount to receive the dogbone.

quote Originally posted by blackrams: On my 3800SC swap, I left the alternator in the orginal location but found a smaller GM version, can't remember what it came off of at this point, clocked it and it fits just fine. If I had to do it again, I'd probably move it to the Power Steering Pump location though. At the time, I had concerns about the Alt sitting down there where a lot more road grime, moisture and BS is picked up off the road. I've seen the alt in the PS Pump location on a number of different cars now and think it a good location. What can I say, live and learn. Ron

What was wrong with the stock location that you don't like ? I'd think that would be the ideal location if you can make it work. Up out of the wet etc. and a lot easier to get at to replace if needed. Though apparently the stock location will only work with notchback deck lids, and only the later model alts from 2000 and up.

[This message has been edited by GT-maniac (edited 09-15-2008).]

And I have neither a notch-back or 2000+ alt.

So I ripped it all back apart and came up with a new set up. I still have to go and have some flat plate welded in to brace the DB but I think its going to work great and allow me to run the stock belt size.







Next up PWR steering delete. :thumbleft:

Not much to report, deleted the EGR & EVAP purge. Added at vent to the oil cap and heat wrapped the crossover pipe. *sigh* My swap harness is up to 2 weeks out.

Also trying to get a good deal on a 3.4 pulley but clubGP isnt very responsive.

SPEC stage 3 w/ aluminum flyhweel.

[This message has been edited by BV MotorSports (edited 09-18-2008).]

Just got back from the stealership. $19ea for the TB gaskets and $5, yeah $5ea, for the flywheel bolts!!!!!!!!!!! FYI there is 8 of them.

quote Originally posted by BV MotorSports: Just got back from the stealership. $19ea for the TB gaskets and $5, yeah $5ea, for the flywheel bolts!!!!!!!!!!! FYI there is 8 of them.

Should get parts that can be gotten from the parts store--TB gaskets are like $8 or so last time I bought some. What bolts did you get to use on the flywheel?

quote Originally posted by BV MotorSports: So I ripped it all back apart and came up with a new set up.

Can I have your old set up ??

Keep it up I'm watching with enthusiasim (sp?) -Jason

quote Originally posted by MstangsBware: Should get parts that can be gotten from the parts store--TB gaskets are like $8 or so last time I bought some. What bolts did you get to use on the flywheel?

1996 Firebird 3800 w/ 5 speed

quote Originally posted by BV MotorSports: And I have neither a notch-back or 2000+ alt.

Yes I know you don't, I was simply asking why he didn't like it as I am going with that setup myself. It will work fine on my car.
You will have to use the setup you have. Or try some of the ways Fastfieros or Fieroflyer did their alt mounts.
How much did the clutch and flywheel set you back ? Is the flywheel already machined to the right thickness ?