You should include a link to this thread in your next Email to him.
As for the article, It is yet again another misinformed person commenting about a car he knows nothing about except for the rumors he has heard of over the years. Someone should invite him out to one of the large Fiero shows. At least he can learn about the cars and us "tasteless aficionados".
Wow, the dedication to Pennock's is duly shown in that article. Note the explosion of intelligent comments, and how they directly coincide with the posting of this thread! Love it!
My head about exploded when I saw the fiero and my brothers car (probe) in that list. The author's ignorance is astonishing. We all know the Fiero is a well built car with a decent (for '80s) motor that handles like a dream. The only thing he had on the probe was the name, a pretty flimsy argument.
Unfortunately, i've heard all these things before when I bought my fiero and when my brother bought the probe. There is so much ignorance surrounding these cars that only a few minutes of research would clear up, if people would just take the time. <---- especially a reporter for Popular Mechanics, that guy should not have a job tomorrow. [/rant]
Seems like this guy should get his facts straight before insulting Fieros. He's got an '88 Formula pictured and then goes on to bury the car stating that it uses Phoenix and Citation parts (same car BTW) and Chevettes. He fails to mention that the Formula he has pictured is the result of GM sinking $30 million in the engineering of a superior suspension that will rival ANYTHING built today. Fieros made a profit in all 5 of its production years, Chevette parts or no. And gee, what car do you think GM looked at when they decided to go forward with the Saturn in the 90's? And sold quite well too.
Grand Ams? While I'm not a huge fan of them, the Grand Am did at one time share the same platform as the mighty GTO (1973). Besides, they're just called G6's now.
Dodge Colt? Classic car? It was an econobox for commuting, not exactly my definition of a classic. What was this pinhead smoking?
Ford Probe? Buy a Mazda.
A Cordoba?? Had to reach back quite a few years (or decades) for that! What about the Pinto? Why not throw in the AMC Gremlin or Pacer while he's at it? Hell, he mentioned the Fiero borrowing parts from Chevettes/T1000's and the Citation/Phoenix. Why aren't those cars in there?
I dunno, quite the random list... Maybe myself or someone on this list was looking EVER so cool driving their Fiero down the street one day turning the head of his girlfriend in the passenger seat of his dime 'o dozen, gas guzzling, economy killing, and quite boring SUV making him jealous?? (the last line is funnier if read in the voice of Stewie Griffin LOL)
------------------ =-Eric the Dread
1988 Fiero GT 2.8L V6 2001 Grand Prix GTP SC3.8L V6
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04:35 PM
RCR Member
Posts: 4409 From: Shelby Twp Mi Registered: Sep 2002
I was giving it a little more thought on what an alternate top 5 list might be... and in no particular order and certainly not all inclusive....
1) Plymouth Horizon/Dodge Omni come to mind. My parents had one when I was young, and it was flat out junk. Tone were made and sold, but these were not high quality cars.
2) Mustang II. No guts. These also have a loyal following of fans like the Fiero, but they really never did live up to the performance that the nameplate promised. More a product of the times than anything and maybe I am being too harsh, but in the grand scheme of Mustangs these just don't live up.
3) Cadillac Cimerron. I mean seriously, a rebadged Cavalier sold as a Cadillac? Now this is a car that really shouldn't have been made. What a disgrace to the brand.
4) Mid 90's Ford Taurus with ovals theme. This design killed the best selling car in the country. Maybe it was too advanced for it's time, but it took a car that was a best seller, and turned away enough buyers to eventually kill the whole Taurus brand.
5) Pontiac Aztek. I know it was already mentioned in the thread, but it was also a huge flop, and most would agree just plain hideous.
[This message has been edited by Fformula88 (edited 11-26-2008).]
I thought the whole "Retro" kick lately has been about popular muscle cars. Why on earth would anyone remake an economy car? Not saying that I don't want the fiero to be made again but, he's not even making a good comparison.
"It's not just the new DeLorean: The Dodge Challenger, Ford Mustang Bullitt and now Chevrolet Camaro"
[This message has been edited by arte444 (edited 11-26-2008).]
Here is the great "know it all" Ray Wert and his first car was a black Caddy Northstar..He was born in 1978. He was still wetting himself when the Fiero came out..
Like other city boys, born and raised in South West of Detroit, Wert's been steeped in automotive culture since birth. His formative years were spent tooling around town in the comfort of a late malaise-era jet-black Northstar-powered Cadillac Sedan De Ville and the teeth-rattling ride of an R edition Mazda Miata. Since then Wert's owned more Jeeps than he can count on one hand (except for a brief two year interlude in a Dodge Intrepid R/T, but he doesn't like talking about that).Wert's most treasured possession, other than a "Block M" license plate with the plate number of 0R0NS, is his very own one-of-a-kind bobblehead
[This message has been edited by KEV (edited 11-27-2008).]
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11:05 AM
R Runner Member
Posts: 3694 From: Scottsville, KY Registered: Feb 2003
Well calling the probe a USA car is a bit warped too. It is a reskinned Mazda MX-6 and they were sold world wide.
I forgot to mention this in my comment on that article, but in case any of you didn't know, Ford was going to create a FWD Mustang, and when people griped about it too much, it became the Probe. And AusFiero is 100% correct; Ford's plan was to pretty much use a Mazda... How is that any different from the Citation parts and such on the Fiero? These idiots really need to learn how to read...
I forgot to mention this in my comment on that article, but in case any of you didn't know, Ford was going to create a FWD Mustang, and when people griped about it too much, it became the Probe. And AusFiero is 100% correct; Ford's plan was to pretty much use a Mazda... How is that any different from the Citation parts and such on the Fiero? These idiots really need to learn how to read...
fwiw, there was some ford DNA in them as well as Mazda. As has been said, the Probe was built on a Mazda chassis. The first generation was more Mazda than ford overall, but could be had with a Ford sourced drivetrain using a 3.0L Ford OHV V6 as well as a 2.2L N/A and 2.2L turbo mazda motors. The 2nd generation cars only had Mazda motors, a 2.0L 4 banger and a 2.5L V6 (which was not the duratec). However, many of these cars did use Ford sourced transmissions, at least autos. My 97 had a Ford CD4E automatic which was utter junk.
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03:05 PM
LitebulbwithaFiero Member
Posts: 3380 From: LaSalle, Michigan Registered: Jun 2008
"Block M" license plate with the plate number of 0R0NS
fyi: Michigan began issuing university fundraising license plates in September of 2000 to raise money for each of the state's 15 state-supported universities. A portion of the fees collected goes to support the university.
I dont think GM will be making any new modles due to they might be out of buisness they need to get rid of the CEO Rick Wagner what a moron go's and ask for money but no plan and dont even know how much he needs now this morning there talking about selling Pontiac , Hummer and Saab
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07:21 AM
Toddster Member
Posts: 20871 From: Roswell, Georgia Registered: May 2001
Unfortunately, he is right that the NAME is tarnished, and the Fiero while insanely popular in the early years was canceled in a cloud of controversy around the recalls, so it's not a good candidate for a nameplate revival.
There are tarnished names and then there are TARNISHED names. This insistance that the name Fiero is somehow tarnished is crap. I run into people constantly who can't even remember the Fiero. Or even if they do they tend to say things like, "oh yeah I always wanted one of those".
It is only car writers who seem to dismiss it and I can't imagine why. A little careful PR can restore most any brand. Look at Jack in the Box after the bad meat thing. Or Tylenol after the cyanide poisonings.
A TRULY tarnished name would be Edsel, or Columbine, or Hilter. Fiero just doesn't rank among these names, not even close.
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11:23 AM
hyperv6 Member
Posts: 6091 From: Clinton, OH, USA Registered: Mar 2003
1 The Fiero name was and is tarnished. As time goes by all names mellow with age like the Tucker, Edsel and Corvair. In some cases it is a badge of honor.
2. The Fiero program was flawed from the start with a lot of Pontiac effort and little GM support. Lets face it the 1988 weas the first year that Pontiac ever got close to what they orginally wanted.
3. The Fiero while it was a affordable fun car it was far from perfect. I love my Fiero but it is not my fastest car nor my best handeling car. If you have ever driven a well tuned suspension on a car you know what I mean.
4 The cost of new car programs are so expensive today few will gamble on a name that sme still associate with a negitive aspect. Fair or not that is just how it is.
5 GM needs to worry more about building a good small sedan that makes a lot of money vs a rehash of a Fiero or any other niche car right now.
6 As it stands now we will be lucky if there is a Pontiac in 5 years let alone anything else. Pontiac as a name is a damaged brand and name. GM has stated that. Right now they only have two good cars in the G8 and Solstice. the rest are just rehashed poorer rebadged examples of a Chevy.
7 The Fiero is not alone here it just made the list this time. These reporters have hundereds of cars who should not return in name or other wise. So to get that worked over this is nothing. We have an very affordable sporty car while not perfect will have its place. To be honest its falults at times make it stand out from the usual basket case crap cars out there. Example the plastic panels may not fit with tight gaps but it also keep them from rotting away like an old MG. It may be a parts bin car that the sum of the parts just did not work that well together but we cans till get parts for most of the mechanical bits because they were used else where.
The bottom line is as Fiero owners we need to accept the truth and faults where they are. If you don't have thick skin you should never buy a Fiero to start with. As a 24 year owner of a Fiero I have seen the good times and bad. I have heard em all and the best as a Fiero owner you can do is be honest take credit where it is deserved for the car but also be honest to the fact it is far from perfect.
Honesty will get you some creditbility. If you act like some fanatic they will write you off as just another idiot like they have some X1/9 owners in Autoweek.
Note the MG owners have taken this approch and they are accepted faily well as they know their cars are good but not perfect.
[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 11-28-2008).]
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12:42 PM
JumpStart Member
Posts: 1412 From: Central Florida Registered: Sep 2006
I get the Chrysler Cordoba and the Colt. But seriously, what brain bone wrote this article?
He listed the Fiero and Probe above the Pinto? the Aztek, and OH YEAH, the Chevette which they even mentioned by name? How about nearly ANYTHING built by AMC?
I have owned several AMCs and can say that for the time, they were dependable cars. Doesnt mean I think they should bring them back though. Especially the Pacer even though it had the one safe point of NO blind spots LOL
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04:27 PM
2farnorth Member
Posts: 3402 From: Leonard, Tx. USA Registered: Feb 2001
1 The Fiero name was and is tarnished. As time goes by all names mellow with age like the Tucker, Edsel and Corvair. In some cases it is a badge of honor.
2. The Fiero program was flawed from the start with a lot of Pontiac effort and little GM support. Lets face it the 1988 weas the first year that Pontiac ever got close to what they orginally wanted.
3. The Fiero while it was a affordable fun car it was far from perfect. I love my Fiero but it is not my fastest car nor my best handeling car. If you have ever driven a well tuned suspension on a car you know what I mean.
4 The cost of new car programs are so expensive today few will gamble on a name that sme still associate with a negitive aspect. Fair or not that is just how it is.
5 GM needs to worry more about building a good small sedan that makes a lot of money vs a rehash of a Fiero or any other niche car right now.
6 As it stands now we will be lucky if there is a Pontiac in 5 years let alone anything else. Pontiac as a name is a damaged brand and name. GM has stated that. Right now they only have two good cars in the G8 and Solstice. the rest are just rehashed poorer rebadged examples of a Chevy.
7 The Fiero is not alone here it just made the list this time. These reporters have hundereds of cars who should not return in name or other wise. So to get that worked over this is nothing. We have an very affordable sporty car while not perfect will have its place. To be honest its falults at times make it stand out from the usual basket case crap cars out there. Example the plastic panels may not fit with tight gaps but it also keep them from rotting away like an old MG. It may be a parts bin car that the sum of the parts just did not work that well together but we cans till get parts for most of the mechanical bits because they were used else where.
The bottom line is as Fiero owners we need to accept the truth and faults where they are. If you don't have thick skin you should never buy a Fiero to start with. As a 24 year owner of a Fiero I have seen the good times and bad. I have heard em all and the best as a Fiero owner you can do is be honest take credit where it is deserved for the car but also be honest to the fact it is far from perfect.
Honesty will get you some creditbility. If you act like some fanatic they will write you off as just another idiot like they have some X1/9 owners in Autoweek.
Note the MG owners have taken this approch and they are accepted faily well as they know their cars are good but not perfect.
All of this may be true, but it doesn't excuse his calling all of us "tasteless". That was the most unpardonable statement in the whole article. If that's the way he feels then I don't need his magazine.
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07:42 PM
hyperv6 Member
Posts: 6091 From: Clinton, OH, USA Registered: Mar 2003
All of this may be true, but it doesn't excuse his calling all of us "tasteless". That was the most unpardonable statement in the whole article. If that's the way he feels then I don't need his magazine.
I guess that I just look at if different since over all those years I have read and heard worse first hand. I learned a long time ago not everyone is going to love or like a Fiero so I just ignore it. One idiot is bad enough but if I get all worked up about it just makes two idiots.
The best any of us can do is be honest and realistic about our cars. and don't over react if someone disagress. The one with the most class wins.
The media has never really been accused of always beeing accurate, smart or unbiased when it comes to politics or cars.
Just chalk this one up with the other how many negitive stories that are forgotten in 3 months.
His and the others stories are forgotten but the cars run on.
Here is the great "know it all" Ray Wert and his first car was a black Caddy Northstar..He was born in 1978. He was still wetting himself when the Fiero came out..
Like other city boys, born and raised in South West of Detroit, Wert's been steeped in automotive culture since birth. His formative years were spent tooling around town in the comfort of a late malaise-era jet-black Northstar-powered Cadillac Sedan De Ville and the teeth-rattling ride of an R edition Mazda Miata. Since then Wert's owned more Jeeps than he can count on one hand (except for a brief two year interlude in a Dodge Intrepid R/T, but he doesn't like talking about that).Wert's most treasured possession, other than a "Block M" license plate with the plate number of 0R0NS, is his very own one-of-a-kind bobblehead
Here he is doing unmentionable things to a GT-R
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08:13 PM
Nov 29th, 2008
Oreif Member
Posts: 16460 From: Schaumburg, IL Registered: Jan 2000
3. The Fiero while it was a affordable fun car it was far from perfect. I love my Fiero but it is not my fastest car nor my best handeling car. If you have ever driven a well tuned suspension on a car you know what I mean.
I have to disagree with this point. The Fiero was never meant to be the fastest or best handling, But in the mid 80's when it came out, It was a fun and decent car compared to all the other cars at that time. It handled as well if not better than many of the other cars on the road back then. Mid 15 second cars was the average 1/4 mile times even of the "muscle cars". The problem is many compare a 20+ year old car to newer cars which have better advances in suspension and engines than were available back in the 80's. While it wasn't "perfect" (how many cars back then were?) it was above average for it's time.
Here are some cars from the same era and their times: Using the R&T ratings: 1985 Pontiac Fiero GT 7.8 15.7
1985 Chevrolet Camaro IROC-Z28 7.0 15.2 1984 Chevrolet Corvette 6.7 15.1 1984 Pontiac Firebird Trans Am HO 7.9 16.1 1985 Chrysler Laser XE 8.1 16.0 1986 Mazda RX-7 GXL 8.5 16.5 1986 Mitsubishi Starion ES 7.5 16.0 1988 Pontiac Firebird Trans Am GTA 7.4 15.9 1988 Porsche 924 S 8.5 16.4 1986 Porsche 944 8.9 16.6 1986 Ferrari Mondial 3.2 7.1 15.3 1984 Ford Mustang SVO 7.9 15.8 1986 Toyota MR2 8.4 16.5 1986 Honda (Civic) CRX Si 8.7 16.7 1984 Lotus Turbo Esprit 6.6 15.3 1986 Dodge Daytona Turbo I 8.6 16.4 1985 Nissan 300ZX 8.2 16.4 1986 Saab 9000 7.6 15.6 1985 Audi 4000S Quattro 9.2 16.8 1985 BMW 325e 9.2 16.6 1985 BMW 635CSi 8.2 16.0 1988 BMW M6 7.0 15.5
skidpad
The V-6 Fiero hit .84-.86g on the skidpad Porsche 911 Carrera -> .85g Ferrari Testarossa -> .84g Lotus Esprit Turbo -> .86g Pontiac Firebird Trans Am/Formula ('93+) -> .82g-.85g Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX -> .86g
slalom
The Fiero ran the slalom at 63.4-63.9 mph Pontiac Firebird Trans Am -> 59.7 mph Lotus Epsrit S4 -> 60.6 mph Porsche 911 Carrera -> 61.9 mph Ferrari 348 -> 62.8 mph Nissan 300ZX Turbo -> 63.0 mph
By the early 90's the "performance race" was in full swing between manufacturers and as technology of suspensions and engines improved many cars became faster and handled better.
[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 11-29-2008).]
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05:47 PM
fierosound Member
Posts: 15189 From: Calgary, Canada Registered: Nov 1999
The Ford Mustang was a parts bin car also. That turned out pretty well.
The 53/54 Corvette was as well. Except for the "plastic" body, all the mechanicals were borrowed from other lines, including the unexciting 6-cylinder engine and 2-speed automatic. But unlike the Fiero which was "a hit right out of the gate" with huge sales, the Corvette practically had to be given away to generate interest. It was the introduction of the V8 engine that brought sales up and saved it.
Corvette gets huge accolades as GMs' "top" sportscar. Hmmm.... 50 years of Corvette development vs 5 years of production for the Fiero. A few more years of delevopment for the Fiero would have also made a huge difference in quality/performance - is that what Chevy wanted to stop?? ------------------ 3.4L S/C 87 GT www.fierosound.com 2002/2003/2004 World of Wheels Winner & Multiple IASCA Stereo Award Winner My SD4 Indy www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/096075.html
[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 11-29-2008).]
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07:56 PM
hyperv6 Member
Posts: 6091 From: Clinton, OH, USA Registered: Mar 2003
I have to disagree with this point. The Fiero was never meant to be the fastest or best handling, But in the mid 80's when it came out, It was a fun and decent car compared to all the other cars at that time. It handled as well if not better than many of the other cars on the road back then. Mid 15 second cars was the average 1/4 mile times even of the "muscle cars". The problem is many compare a 20+ year old car to newer cars which have better advances in suspension and engines than were available back in the 80's. While it wasn't "perfect" (how many cars back then were?) it was above average for it's time.
Here are some cars from the same era and their times: Using the R&T ratings: 1985 Pontiac Fiero GT 7.8 15.7
1985 Chevrolet Camaro IROC-Z28 7.0 15.2 1984 Chevrolet Corvette 6.7 15.1 1984 Pontiac Firebird Trans Am HO 7.9 16.1 1985 Chrysler Laser XE 8.1 16.0 1986 Mazda RX-7 GXL 8.5 16.5 1986 Mitsubishi Starion ES 7.5 16.0 1988 Pontiac Firebird Trans Am GTA 7.4 15.9 1988 Porsche 924 S 8.5 16.4 1986 Porsche 944 8.9 16.6 1986 Ferrari Mondial 3.2 7.1 15.3 1984 Ford Mustang SVO 7.9 15.8 1986 Toyota MR2 8.4 16.5 1986 Honda (Civic) CRX Si 8.7 16.7 1984 Lotus Turbo Esprit 6.6 15.3 1986 Dodge Daytona Turbo I 8.6 16.4 1985 Nissan 300ZX 8.2 16.4 1986 Saab 9000 7.6 15.6 1985 Audi 4000S Quattro 9.2 16.8 1985 BMW 325e 9.2 16.6 1985 BMW 635CSi 8.2 16.0 1988 BMW M6 7.0 15.5
skidpad
The V-6 Fiero hit .84-.86g on the skidpad Porsche 911 Carrera -> .85g Ferrari Testarossa -> .84g Lotus Esprit Turbo -> .86g Pontiac Firebird Trans Am/Formula ('93+) -> .82g-.85g Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX -> .86g
slalom
The Fiero ran the slalom at 63.4-63.9 mph Pontiac Firebird Trans Am -> 59.7 mph Lotus Epsrit S4 -> 60.6 mph Porsche 911 Carrera -> 61.9 mph Ferrari 348 -> 62.8 mph Nissan 300ZX Turbo -> 63.0 mph
By the early 90's the "performance race" was in full swing between manufacturers and as technology of suspensions and engines improved many cars became faster and handled better.
Drop the numbers game. You know as well as I do a great car is not just made up of numbers.
Over the many years of driving I have been very lucky to have been able to drive some of the best stock tuned suspension cars in the world. A good car will feel slow when it is going very fast. It will behave in a very good manor and have the turn in precision that will let carve a apex like scalpel.
I have owned my car since new. While it is fun to drive and a very enjoyable car it is not a well tuned machine from the factory. GM was well know for big tires and big sway bars to make a car handle. That is only part of what it takes.
GM has learned in the last 10 year finally how to well tune a car. Drive any of the cars tuned by the GM Perfromance Division and you will see GM has learned what others have know for years.
I am the last to be a Euro car snob. I hate Porsches but I learned a whle back after logging as lot of miles in a 911 Carrera how a performance car should handle on public roads. The car was easy to drive fast and I don't mean Fiero fast. It made me feel like a better driver and I did not have to fight it.
Since then I have found this in many other cars and understand better what others have tried to tell me for years.
The Fiero post good numbers and I will not say it is a bad car but it has a lot of room where GM could have tuned it much better in rhe real world. The 88 was a good first step and I expect Pontiac would have improved it from there but you can erase the first 4 years.
In the 1984-87 the front steering is not sharp and is overly heavy. The rear has too much bump steer and on a bumpy road will make you correct the steering throught the curve vs letting you look for more grip and speed. The car had too much under steer per GM.
The bottom line is the Fiero if driven hard rewards those who work for it. When a well tuned cars rewards those with out making them earn every curve. The car should do the work not the driver.
By the way the 911 was a 1987 and the majority of my driving was on Highway 1 The PCH from San Deigo to north of San Fran and back. Plus over the years I have some other trips in and around California in this car. I still would not own one but I have to respect the car because it make hard driving easy and makes me an even better more capable driver.
Anyone can post big numbers on a test track but on a real world road few can make a car that performs great.
The Germans knew about the Ring along time ago for testing GM just figured it out.. If it drives good there it will drive good anywhere.
There is a reason some of the great cars form past don't pull big track test numbers. It is because they are tuned to be driven in the real world. You sometimes have to give a few counts of tack numbers to better tune a car.
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09:00 PM
PFF
System Bot
Oreif Member
Posts: 16460 From: Schaumburg, IL Registered: Jan 2000
Drop the numbers game. You know as well as I do a great car is not just made up of numbers.
Over the many years of driving I have been very lucky to have been able to drive some of the best stock tuned suspension cars in the world. A good car will feel slow when it is going very fast. It will behave in a very good manor and have the turn in precision that will let carve a apex like scalpel.
I have owned my car since new. While it is fun to drive and a very enjoyable car it is not a well tuned machine from the factory. GM was well know for big tires and big sway bars to make a car handle. That is only part of what it takes.
GM has learned in the last 10 year finally how to well tune a car. Drive any of the cars tuned by the GM Perfromance Division and you will see GM has learned what others have know for years.
I am the last to be a Euro car snob. I hate Porsches but I learned a whle back after logging as lot of miles in a 911 Carrera how a performance car should handle on public roads. The car was easy to drive fast and I don't mean Fiero fast. It made me feel like a better driver and I did not have to fight it.
Since then I have found this in many other cars and understand better what others have tried to tell me for years.
The Fiero post good numbers and I will not say it is a bad car but it has a lot of room where GM could have tuned it much better in rhe real world. The 88 was a good first step and I expect Pontiac would have improved it from there but you can erase the first 4 years.
In the 1984-87 the front steering is not sharp and is overly heavy. The rear has too much bump steer and on a bumpy road will make you correct the steering throught the curve vs letting you look for more grip and speed. The car had too much under steer per GM.
The bottom line is the Fiero if driven hard rewards those who work for it. When a well tuned cars rewards those with out making them earn every curve. The car should do the work not the driver.
By the way the 911 was a 1987 and the majority of my driving was on Highway 1 The PCH from San Deigo to north of San Fran and back. Plus over the years I have some other trips in and around California in this car. I still would not own one but I have to respect the car because it make hard driving easy and makes me an even better more capable driver.
Anyone can post big numbers on a test track but on a real world road few can make a car that performs great.
The Germans knew about the Ring along time ago for testing GM just figured it out.. If it drives good there it will drive good anywhere.
There is a reason some of the great cars form past don't pull big track test numbers. It is because they are tuned to be driven in the real world. You sometimes have to give a few counts of tack numbers to better tune a car.
You have missed the point. The Fiero isn't a "tuned sports car" it is a sporty economy car. The point is the Fiero was an above average car for a typical mid-80's car. I never said it was great or perfect. It never claimed to be the fastest nor out handle everything on the road. But for a $10K to $14K commuter car it was a decent car for it's era and when you compare it with other cars in the same era, It had some numbers that were respectable in comparison to a typical mass-produced vehicle in the 80's. The appeal of the car is it's character. It has some unique qualities that make it different than most other cars. Even today the Fiero still has enough character to appeal to many who have and enjoy them.
If you are looking for a world-class tuned sportscar, Your on the wrong forum and/or driving the wrong car.
[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 11-29-2008).]
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11:21 PM
Toddster Member
Posts: 20871 From: Roswell, Georgia Registered: May 2001
Originally posted by JumpStart: I have owned several AMCs and can say that for the time, they were dependable cars. Doesnt mean I think they should bring them back though. Especially the Pacer even though it had the one safe point of NO blind spots LOL
HA HA
I deserved that. I bag this clown for dissing cars people love and I guess I forgot there musta been an AMC fan or two in the crowd. For what it's worth I always liked the AMX.
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11:39 PM
Nov 30th, 2008
madcurl Member
Posts: 21401 From: In a Van down by the Kern River Registered: Jul 2003
The best any of us can do is be honest and realistic about our cars. and don't over react if someone disagress. The one with the most class wins.
Yes. We need to be honest.
{QUOTE} "The Fiero may have received resurgence in interest later in life. Why? Because the plastic body panels afforded tasteless Fiero aficionados the ability to rebody the car into all manner of exotic look-alikes-yuck. The name Fiero should never again adorn another vehicle. " {end of quote}
IMO I think we're all guilty by association. Fieros and replicas are IMO one in-the-same in that- any time the name "Fiero" is used it is associated with the word "replica or kit." Therefore the writer (I think) has a distain for Fieros due in-part of replicas being "tasteless" exotic look-a-likes albeit good replica or bad replicas for we have all seen our share of really, really bad replicas and even those who choose to badge their Fiero with Ferrari emblems thus prolonging the charade. Therefore is it any wonder why writers have written negatives regarding the Fiero?
"Tasteless" examples; Average body panel thickness: 0.060". ------------------
"Friends don't let friends drive stock"
[This message has been edited by madcurl (edited 11-30-2008).]
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01:23 AM
fieroboom Member
Posts: 2132 From: Hayden, AL (BFE) Registered: Oct 2008
I have to disagree with this point. The Fiero was never meant to be the fastest or best handling, But in the mid 80's when it came out, It was a fun and decent car compared to all the other cars at that time. It handled as well if not better than many of the other cars on the road back then. Mid 15 second cars was the average 1/4 mile times even of the "muscle cars". The problem is many compare a 20+ year old car to newer cars which have better advances in suspension and engines than were available back in the 80's. While it wasn't "perfect" (how many cars back then were?) it was above average for it's time.
Here are some cars from the same era and their times: Using the R&T ratings: 1985 Pontiac Fiero GT 7.8 15.7
1985 Chevrolet Camaro IROC-Z28 7.0 15.2 1984 Chevrolet Corvette 6.7 15.1 1984 Pontiac Firebird Trans Am HO 7.9 16.1 1985 Chrysler Laser XE 8.1 16.0 1986 Mazda RX-7 GXL 8.5 16.5 1986 Mitsubishi Starion ES 7.5 16.0 1988 Pontiac Firebird Trans Am GTA 7.4 15.9 1988 Porsche 924 S 8.5 16.4 1986 Porsche 944 8.9 16.6 1986 Ferrari Mondial 3.2 7.1 15.3 1984 Ford Mustang SVO 7.9 15.8 1986 Toyota MR2 8.4 16.5 1986 Honda (Civic) CRX Si 8.7 16.7 1984 Lotus Turbo Esprit 6.6 15.3 1986 Dodge Daytona Turbo I 8.6 16.4 1985 Nissan 300ZX 8.2 16.4 1986 Saab 9000 7.6 15.6 1985 Audi 4000S Quattro 9.2 16.8 1985 BMW 325e 9.2 16.6 1985 BMW 635CSi 8.2 16.0 1988 BMW M6 7.0 15.5
skidpad
The V-6 Fiero hit .84-.86g on the skidpad Porsche 911 Carrera -> .85g Ferrari Testarossa -> .84g Lotus Esprit Turbo -> .86g Pontiac Firebird Trans Am/Formula ('93+) -> .82g-.85g Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX -> .86g
slalom
The Fiero ran the slalom at 63.4-63.9 mph Pontiac Firebird Trans Am -> 59.7 mph Lotus Epsrit S4 -> 60.6 mph Porsche 911 Carrera -> 61.9 mph Ferrari 348 -> 62.8 mph Nissan 300ZX Turbo -> 63.0 mph
By the early 90's the "performance race" was in full swing between manufacturers and as technology of suspensions and engines improved many cars became faster and handled better.
This is an exact explanation of my thoughts. And I'm sorry, but the numbers game is how it's played. You can't relate any one car to another without numbers. It's like trying to explain to someone what a goatee is without touching your face; you can't do it. That being said, I think that hyperv6 is just a little more on the conservative side than most of us. To an extent, I agree with him that the Fiero isn't and wasn't the fastest nor best handling... But when you consider that it was produced as an ECONOMY car with a sporty look, then it becomes an exceptional vehicle. First of all, even 30mpg in the mid eighties was not common, and although the mustang set the highest fuel economy record at around 40mpg, the Fiero was still an exceptional fuel savings. So when you or anyone else sees the Fiero for what it was meant to be -- a 30-35mpg economy car that seats 2 -- then you start to realize that the mid to high 15 second quarters was just a plus, and it just so happened to be able to hang with a vette... literally. I see people day in and day out attempt to compare the Fiero to cars of today, and they have a puzzled look when I tell them an '86 GT was compared directly with an '81 Ferrari 308GTSi and pretty much broke dead even overall.... But when they keep attempting their modern comparison, I politely remind them that until the recent Mazda Miata MX5, the Fiero retained the closest to a 50/50 weight distribution in a mass production car.... So you want conservative? Ok, an economy car that can hang with a Corvette of it's time... End of discussion.
You have missed the point. The Fiero isn't a "tuned sports car" it is a sporty economy car. The point is the Fiero was an above average car for a typical mid-80's car. I never said it was great or perfect. It never claimed to be the fastest nor out handle everything on the road. But for a $10K to $14K commuter car it was a decent car for it's era and when you compare it with other cars in the same era, It had some numbers that were respectable in comparison to a typical mass-produced vehicle in the 80's. The appeal of the car is it's character. It has some unique qualities that make it different than most other cars. Even today the Fiero still has enough character to appeal to many who have and enjoy them.
If you are looking for a world-class tuned sportscar, Your on the wrong forum and/or driving the wrong car.
I agree with you on all points but one,
I am not looking for a world class tuned car. The Fiero was just never a well tuned car in the suspension department at all. It has traits no car should have as if they had just sent a little more time and meony GM did not give them they could have gotten it right.
Also [not you] many have tried to play the Fiero to be a 308 killer etc and it is not. it is just as you discribed.
The things GM needed to do to make this car right were avaiable back then. Better tuned shocks, Better geometry on the suspension set up.and better bushings. The problem is the back and the front of the early cars never worked together as they should have just to make a average car not a Enzo.
My complaint is not just on the Fiero but most GM car of the 70's-early 90's. It was just one of there failings.
You do not have to be world class sports car to be a great car. Also numbers mean little is your correcting the steering through a corner becaus the rear is deflecting from bump steer.
Also it has a 4 cylinder that should have never been used in this car. I am glad Pontiac did build this car but at time I almost with they had waited till they had better support form GM. If they had waited we may have never got the car or we may have gotten the car the ay it should have been,
The bottom line the Fiero is not as bad as some make it but on the other hand too often the Fiero fan try to make it into a car with no faults. To some it is better than it ever was.
I have alsway stated the Fiero is a fun car, affordable car but never a perfect car. Some get upset if you admit the faults but there are there and to ignore them only make us lose our credibility on the good points.
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08:34 AM
hyperv6 Member
Posts: 6091 From: Clinton, OH, USA Registered: Mar 2003
{QUOTE} "The Fiero may have received resurgence in interest later in life. Why? Because the plastic body panels afforded tasteless Fiero aficionados the ability to rebody the car into all manner of exotic look-alikes-yuck. The name Fiero should never again adorn another vehicle. " {end of quote}
IMO I think we're all guilty by association. Fieros and replicas are IMO one in-the-same in that- any time the name "Fiero" is used it is associated with the word "replica or kit." Therefore the writer (I think) has a distain for Fieros due in-part of replicas being "tasteless" exotic look-a-likes albeit good replica or bad replicas for we have all seen our share of really, really bad replicas and even those who choose to badge their Fiero with Ferrari emblems thus prolonging the charade. Therefore is it any wonder why writers have written negatives regarding the Fiero?
"Tasteless" examples; Average body panel thickness: 0.060".
Your right.
If it is a good replica it becomes a Ferrari, or GT 40 Replica. If it is a bad one it is a Fiero Kit car. Life is not fair in the eye of the public.
[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 11-30-2008).]
IP: Logged
08:36 AM
hyperv6 Member
Posts: 6091 From: Clinton, OH, USA Registered: Mar 2003
This is an exact explanation of my thoughts. And I'm sorry, but the numbers game is how it's played. You can't relate any one car to another without numbers. It's like trying to explain to someone what a goatee is without touching your face; you can't do it. That being said, I think that hyperv6 is just a little more on the conservative side than most of us. To an extent, I agree with him that the Fiero isn't and wasn't the fastest nor best handling... But when you consider that it was produced as an ECONOMY car with a sporty look, then it becomes an exceptional vehicle. First of all, even 30mpg in the mid eighties was not common, and although the mustang set the highest fuel economy record at around 40mpg, the Fiero was still an exceptional fuel savings. So when you or anyone else sees the Fiero for what it was meant to be -- a 30-35mpg economy car that seats 2 -- then you start to realize that the mid to high 15 second quarters was just a plus, and it just so happened to be able to hang with a vette... literally. I see people day in and day out attempt to compare the Fiero to cars of today, and they have a puzzled look when I tell them an '86 GT was compared directly with an '81 Ferrari 308GTSi and pretty much broke dead even overall.... But when they keep attempting their modern comparison, I politely remind them that until the recent Mazda Miata MX5, the Fiero retained the closest to a 50/50 weight distribution in a mass production car.... So you want conservative? Ok, an economy car that can hang with a Corvette of it's time... End of discussion.
The numbers game is how it is played byt htose who have never driven or know how a good car should feel like or drive. They have nothing to compare it to and have to resort to numbers.
I have never been a BMW fan. Their cars never pull big numbers but even in their standard series car even in the 70's they can tackle any road and it goes where it was pointed with little effort or drama. Many ther German cars do the same because of where they were tuned and set up on real non perfect roads.
The American companies spent too much time on smooth test tracks and not enough time on the back roads of Michigan to tune any of their cars. Today they have learned other wise.
A good example is the new Cobalt SS Turbo. While it has a very advance engine the suspesion is pretty much the same as the old Z24 or the 80's Rear Twist Beam and Struts and Shocks. The new car is amazing what they have done. There is no special electric shocks the is no exotic parts. It is the old Delta platform [Old J car] tuned as it could have been years ago if they had only tried.
When you read some of these stories you have to remember they don't alway say it nice but some times the truth hurts. The Fiero was just a fully developed car or as well as it could have or should have been. It was just they way GM did things back then. That is also why GM has lost maket share and may even lose Pontiac soon.
GM played the numbers game when they should have just made a better car no matter what the name.
FYI I am a life long GM owner and fan. I too played the numbers game but I finally learned it is more than number to make a good car.
With the Fiero you just have to take the bad with the good. IF you do that it all works out. In the past all you would get is a lot of negitive comments some fair some not but as time goes on fault become charm. Just ask an MG owner whose lights don't come on.
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08:48 AM
madcurl Member
Posts: 21401 From: In a Van down by the Kern River Registered: Jul 2003
Some get upset if you admit the faults but there are there and to ignore them only make us lose our credibility on the good points.
quote
Originally posted by hyperv6:
With the Fiero you just have to take the bad with the good.
If I may add something in the “complaint department.” If Fiero owners upgrade they're cars (engine, suspension, brakes.... ect) that'll reduce the "bad" complaints and increase hidden "goodies" regarding our Fiero.
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12:53 PM
Dec 1st, 2008
olejoedad Member
Posts: 19087 From: Clarendon Twp., MI Registered: May 2004
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