quote Originally posted by engine man: as far as doing a gear reduction we can just modify like a ford 9 inch and get rid of the trany right but acceleration i would think will suffer some

quote Originally posted by toddshotrods: ...For instance, one possibility I thought of for a Fiero conversion with a properly sized motor, and enough "juice", is to use a 4wd S10 front differential in place of the transmission. It uses fwd style axles so, with some mixing and matching (like the guys do to swap in better transmissions), you should be able to get it in place relatively inexpensively. They should also be available in scrap yards pretty cheap. Couple the motor directly to the diff and you have eliminated the weight of the transmission but still have the ability, through the ring and pinion gears, to get it dialed in for your intended usage. Same old ICE technology, used differently...

If you have the gearing right, I don't think you'll have a problem with acceleration. You're still thinking of your theoretical EV in ICE terms. ICE vehicles suffer from poor acceleration from a standstill when they have combinations that don't get the motor up into the torque curve quick enough. To do this they use steeper gearing in the transmission and rear end, customized torque converters, camshafts, etc.

The electric motor has full torque as soon as you turn it on! That's like having your ICE revved to, say, 5000rpm and sliding or dumping the clutch. I watched a video on YouTube over the weekend that had a Viper race a little EV - the EV killed the Viper out of the hole, and beat it through the quarter-mile, because he had full torque instantly.

As far as the 9-inch, I suggested the S10 front diff because it would be much lighter and getting it hooked up to your axles would be much easier. You would have to have a 9-inch center section custom made with some kind of stub ends that let you bolt axles to it (like they make for the street rod IRS setups) and then have custom axles made $$$$ They are also pretty heavy.

I currently have a GM 10-bolt stick axle in my street rod and I am debating just eliminating the transmission on it because I can even buy a TransWarp EV motor that my driveshaft would simply plug into.

Edit - I forgot to add, "welcome to toddshotrods' Page 10!"

[This message has been edited by toddshotrods (edited 01-26-2009).]

quote Originally posted by engine man: as far as doing a gear reduction we can just modify like a ford 9 inch and get rid of the trany right but acceleration i would think will suffer some

Here's the single speed gear reduction unit and motor from the Tesla. The motor is air cooled. 0-60 under 4 seconds, top speed 120. Would fit into a Fiero quite nicely

[This message has been edited by JRP3 (edited 01-26-2009).]

yes the S10 would be a better choice just need the correct gear in it any body know what the HP or watts of the tesla is . the fiero can preform the same I still like that dual motor setup that Washinton state designed

quote Originally posted by toddshotrods: ...I watched a video on YouTube over the weekend that had a Viper race a little EV - the EV killed the Viper out of the hole, and beat it through the quarter-mile, because he had full torque instantly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pm6gD6r3-cw

And another:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G32E4li3xHI

The little White Zombie Datsun doesn't run a transmission. His rear end uses 4.11:1 for lead-acid and 3.70:1 for Lithium batteries. That's a drag car, so I would assume the gearing would be numerically lower for a street car. Factory gear ranges might be a good start.
http://www.evalbum.com/035.html
http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/whitezombie.php

[This message has been edited by toddshotrods (edited 01-26-2009).]

? ok what exactly do they mean by turns of wire do they mean once around or do they mean around for 1 layer on the shaft your tuning on i think they mean once around but want to make sure due to I have some N52 30 LBS pull magnets and am going to build a small motor with realy high voltage and low amp just to see how much power it will put out compaird to a high amp low volt will build 2 differnt coils to try it

I've got three letters for you guys...

C V T

In addition to those 3 links, here's one more: http://www.cleangreencar.co...e/prius-transmission

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Journal of a concept: http://southeastfieros.com >>> Build Thread >>> Parts thread (for project funding)

quote Originally posted by toddshotrods: ...I watched a video on YouTube over the weekend that had a Viper race a little EV - the EV killed the Viper out of the hole, and beat it through the quarter-mile, because he had full torque instantly.

That little EV is the Tzero, which has an early version of the AC Propulsion motor, which Tesla adopted and modified. The current ACP unit is rated at 150KW.

I think I'm convinced. I was going to keep a transmission just because my car is set up for one, and try to use it to my advantage, but the numbers just don't work. I found a 2spd stock car transmission, with an internal clutch, that only weighs 43lbs but it costs $1200! Since I'm running a straight axle rear end, I would be better off putting the money into a quick change rear end. I lose weight and can fine tune the gearing, easily, for what I need to do. Plus, I like minimalist designs that get the job done with as few players as possible - so eliminating an unnecessary component is right up my alley. It takes a while to fully wrap your mind around the concept of having full torque instantly, but when you do the possibilities are awesome!

I am pretty much in full agreement with JR3P on electric now. There is a LOT of potential, and we don't need any major breakthroughs to begin taking advantage of it. The technology is on a roll now, and that should get better exponentially as it is more universally adopted. I am still starting slow, with a toy, because the current technology wouldn't meet my needs for a daily driver, but I have hope for the future. Most of the other technologies seem to be better suited to large scale implementation in producing more juice for the grid.

[This message has been edited by toddshotrods (edited 01-26-2009).]

quote Originally posted by toddshotrods: I think I'm convinced.

Don't forget the need for reverse.

yeah engine its once around. so if u go around 10 times its 10 turns. pick ur gauge wire carefully, bcuz that will impact the effect 2. to small and u burn the wire, too big and u lose turns. ull hav 2 use a thicker gauge for the high amps one bcuz otherwise ull just have slag around ur steel, and low amps means ull need more turns to match the high amperage, but thinner wire will work. id mess around w/ the gauge until u found the one that works best (if u have the time/patience/money for it)

quote Originally posted by Marvin McInnis: Don't forget the need for reverse.

It's in the motor/controller. Just flip the switch from "F" to "R" and step on it. Don't worry, the controller limits how fast steppin on it will send you back in time - j/k

That's the other thing I realized - I can just spend a little more time redesigning my ridiculous shifter to be a glorified "F"-"N"-"R" switch. What it actually connects to wasn't as important as how it looks, and it's actually kind of neat that I will have these old-school looking devices controlling the function of cutting-edge technology.

[This message has been edited by toddshotrods (edited 01-26-2009).]

I am going for high volt not high current so a smaller wire with many many turns around an iorn core and then an iron outer casing i think that will help the strength and i like fooling around with this stuff

[This message has been edited by engine man (edited 01-26-2009).]

quote Originally posted by toddshotrods: That's the other thing I realized - I can just spend a little more time redesigning my ridiculous shifter to be a glorified "F"-"N"-"R" switch. What it actually connects to wasn't as important as how it looks, and it's actually kind of neat that I will have these old-school looking devices controlling the function of cutting-edge technology.

I'm quite interested in seeing this shifter

quote Originally posted by JRP3: I'm quite interested in seeing this shifter

In due time. The custom field is incredibly competitive and I haven't seen one quite like it, so I am trying to preserve the design until I get a little closer to driving the car. I probably have over a hundred hours invested now, but I'll have to shelve some of technical aspects of the design that were specific to the manual transmission. Maybe I can sell it (the design) to a client later...

But I'm off topic with that. The part of it that is on topic is the idea of rethinking how a person uses ICE technology to build a better EV, like using a 4wd S10 front differential as an EV "transmission". Beside providing an adjustable single gear reduction, it would also locate the engine really low in the Fiero and a good bit in front of the rear axle center line, for a true mid-engine layout and low Cg. You'd have a ton of space above them for batteries, controller, etc. The ideal setup would be a lithium battery pack designed to fit in the old fuel tank location, putting most of the weight, literally, in the middle of the car.

quote Originally posted by engine man: ... I have some N52 30 LBS pull magnets and am going to build a small motor with realy high voltage and low amp just to see how much power it will put out compaird to a high amp low volt will build 2 differnt coils to try it

was talking about both, unless uv scrapped the high amp low volt motor

quote Originally posted by toddshotrods: But I'm off topic with that. The part of it that is on topic is the idea of rethinking how a person uses ICE technology to build a better EV, like using a 4wd S10 front differential as an EV "transmission".

Maybe a Corvette differential would work as well?

quote . The ideal setup would be a lithium battery pack designed to fit in the old fuel tank location, putting most of the weight, literally, in the middle of the car.

That is what I'm planning on for my conversion, depending on how confident I am in the BMS I use and if it has remote monitoring. Also if there is enough room, but I think there will be.

quote Originally posted by JRP3: Maybe a Corvette differential would work as well?

It would, but would cost a lot more. C3 (68-82) uses axles with conventional U-joints (the driveshafts serve as the upper control arms). Not sure what type of axles C4 (84-9?) uses. C5 is a transaxle unit with a differential bolted to the back of the transmission. It does use fwd style axles, not sure of the size and spline though. Since the C5 and 4wd S10 use a similar if not identical hub/wheel bearing, the axles should be doable. You could use that diff with a custom adapter plate, but it would cost you. I borrowed one of those once to see if it was feasible for a project, but can't find the pics of it. Probably in my other computer.

I just suggested the 4wd S10 diff because most Fiero owners are building on a budget and there are tons of those trucks and Blazers in the recycling yards now. The ring and pinion gears would be reasonably cheap as well, if you can set them up yourself.

quote Originally posted by JRP3: That is what I'm planning on for my conversion, depending on how confident I am in the BMS I use and if it has remote monitoring. Also if there is enough room, but I think there will be.

You should be able to fit most, if not all of them there, keeping the bulk of the weight where you want it. I had measurments for almost all this stuff but half of my stuff is in storage (just moved), and a lot of stuff was discarded while I was packing...

[This message has been edited by toddshotrods (edited 01-26-2009).]

Won't the front diff turn backwards, or would you run it upside down?

quote Originally posted by JRP3: Won't the front diff turn backwards, or would you run it upside down?

upside down

i realy am intrested in high volt low amp i think you get better batterie life . from what i read amps is curent flow and that drains the batteries.
Now i have a ? again two motors one uses 1000 volts and 50 amps = 50000 watts the second motor uses 100 volts and 500 amps = 50000 watts what one will drain the batteries faster and will one have more power than the other they should have the same power correct but they might do it dfferent like rpms

quote Originally posted by engine man: i realy am intrested in high volt low amp i think you get better batterie life . from what i read amps is curent flow and that drains the batteries. Now i have a ? again two motors one uses 1000 volts and 50 amps = 50000 watts the second motor uses 100 volts and 500 amps = 50000 watts what one will drain the batteries faster and will one have more power than the other they should have the same power correct but they might do it dfferent like rpms

Everything being equal watts are watts, and two motors with 50,000 watts will make the same power and drain the batteries at the same rate.

But in the real world everything is not equal and the high current system will be at a disadvantage.

All wires have resistance to electrical flow. The resistance is equal to the current squared...which means the wire with 10 times the amps has 100 times more resistance, which equals heat and inefficiency.

Draining high current from the batteries will make the drain quicker in the real world because batteries make electricity through a chemical reaction. Those reactions can only occur so quickly. When you draw large currents the battery will be drained quicker regardless of the total watts-hours it can theoretically hold.

The motor with higher current will run considerably hotter, your wires will be considerably larger. The current tends to travel on the surface of the wire, so making it bigger is not a linear equation. The wires will also need to be more than 10 times bigger to carry 10 times more current.

Almost every reason you can think of tells you that higher voltage and lower current is better.

And then we get to the Edison versus Tesla, (the man)...High voltage DC is a nightmare to work with, it arcs, and is hard to switch. That's why 99.999% of the world uses AC (or low voltage DC). AC crosses the zero point 60 times a second so it can be switched quite easily.

This is why high voltage AC is going to be in the more sophisticated swaps.

yes DC is also deadly at high volt with just a few amps behind it . In an AC Electromagnet is there a north and south pole or no due to it switching back and forth

You also have to deal with the realities of getting high voltage from a battery pack. Higher voltage means more batteries which means more connections and higher cost. With lithium you are dealing with 3.2 volts nominal from each battery. Finding or building a high voltage battery charger is no easy task either.

quote Originally posted by jscott1: The resistance is equal to the current squared...which means the wire with 10 times the amps has 100 times more resistance, which equals heat and inefficiency.

This is wrong! Resistance is an inherent property of a conductor which is essentially constant, although it does usually vary somewhat with temperature. I hope you meant to say that power dissipation (i.e. power consumed) in a circuit is proportional to current squared. Incidentally, power dissipation is also proportional to voltage squared.

P = I² * R
P = E² / R

Ok what the plan is is to make a V gate motor but with Electromagnet stators so they will be shut off at the correct time
http://www.youtube.com/watc...2whk&feature=related

quote Originally posted by Marvin McInnis: This is wrong! Resistance is an inherent property of a conductor which is essentially constant, although it does usually vary somewhat with temperature. I hope you meant to say that power dissipation (i.e. power consumed) in a circuit is proportional to current squared. Incidentally, power dissipation is also proportional to voltage squared. P = I2 * R P = E2 / R

Yeah that's what I meant. We call it "I squared R losses" so I think of it as resistance, although power disappated is more correct. In any event higher currents lead to higher losses due to increases in temperature which does increase resistance dramatically.

[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 01-27-2009).]

quote Originally posted by engine man: Ok what the plan is is to make a V gate motor but with Electromagnet stators so they will be shut off at the correct time http://www.youtube.com/watc...2whk&feature=related

I think you're vastly underestimating the amount of work that goes into building an electric motor. First, I don't know what that video is supposed to prove... It's a childs toy with magnets.

This isn't just getting a steel bar and winding some wire around it. I mean you could do that, yes, but you're not going to get 3 horsepower out of it.... let alone 30. There's a reason these EV motors cost thousands of dollars... they're just a hunk of copper and steel... you're paying for the engineering.

he is gonna use electromagnetic stators (the bigger magnet) to run the same idea, but stators could turn on and off much faster than he can wave it back and forth. also, couldnt u put more than just one on? then with work u could get the system to turn them on and off at the correct times to get some real speed going. im assuming ur gonna use brushes to run the electromagnets at the correct time right?

quote Originally posted by Nohbdy: he is gonna use electromagnetic stators (the bigger magnet) to run the same idea, but stators could turn on and off much faster than he can wave it back and forth. also, couldnt u put more than just one on? then with work u could get the system to turn them on and off at the correct times to get some real speed going. im assuming ur gonna use brushes to run the electromagnets at the correct time right?

I took power systems (which covers rotating electrical machines) about a year ago, and virtually none of it stuck, but there's a lot more to it than throwing magnets against electromagnets... I mean yes, that's the basic idea, but you have a purpose of propelling a car here, which requires some amount of torque and power. It needs to be powered by some batteries which will have some kind of voltage and current and discharge characteristics.

You need tiny gaps between the magnets and electromagnets or you lose efficiency. You need a properly wound field or you lose efficiency. You need the right size wire or you lose efficiency. It needs to be balanced or you lose efficiency. By the end of the day your motor might draw 500,000 watts........ but only give you 1 horsepower at the output shaft...

i dont think hes planning on making an actual engine. if he is hes crazy, cuz that would b ridiculous. and also WAY cool if it worked lol.
nyway, r u making a car engine or just a little motor?

that v gate is bassed on attraction or reppel and i just want to see how well it works with a strong electromagnet and yes it would need to turn of for part of the rotation to get past the sticky spot and yes one stator would not be enough nor will the 30 lbs pull magnets be strong enough but it would be a brushless motor i would use a reed switch or micro switch to turn on and off the coil but it will be on the same princables that propell some of the new roller coaster rides I just want to see if it would be worth going further and you dont know till you try the people who say cant never will

quote Originally posted by engine man: yes DC is also deadly at high volt with just a few amps behind it . In an AC Electromagnet is there a north and south pole or no due to it switching back and forth

Yes, AC has a north & south pole.

....they just change places really fast... (like about 60 times a second)

hehe

well ac is out unless i use a bridge rectifire at the elctromagnets the poles have to stay the same this is due to one side of the V is all south pole and the other is north

quote Originally posted by engine man: well ac is out unless i use a bridge rectifire at the elctromagnets the poles have to stay the same this is due to one side of the V is all south pole and the other is north

Bridge rectifier = diodes = heat = loss....

What these guys are trying to tell you is that you can't beat physics. Unless you're good with CAD, and own a machine shop, you won't be able to create what your describing to exact enough tolerances to be able to see any gains. Your idea is awesome, and with plenty of R&D, and a lot of machining, you'll get there, but it won't be next week/month/year... I'm betting at least 5 years, and by then, well, I'm not even gonna guess what kind of super conductor hodge-podge motors we'll have by then.

I am not trying to beat pyshics i just think that high voltage low amps is the way to go not this 100 200 volt stuff need way to many amps but to get high volts you need lots of small battrie cells like they said but i look at the magnets that take a D cell and can lift 500 lbs that tells me there is more to be gaind but will the stator magnets be to big due to so much winding or so heavy due to so much iorn there are many ? to be found but you will never know till you build one and play with it trying to max it out

quote Originally posted by fieroboom: I'm betting at least 5 years, and by then, well, I'm not even gonna guess what kind of super conductor hodge-podge motors we'll have by then.

I've got my money on Diamagnetic Levitation.... This is cool as $hit, and I never heard of it before yesterday. Living frogs have been levitated by magnetic field alone. I don't know why NASA isn't working on this right now.

http://www.physics.ucla.edu.../diamag/diajap00.pdf

I just love the fact that this topic has gotten this many responses/views.

5 years ago it would have just been viewed by a bunch of people, 1-2 responses, and slid into the archives. Sign of the times I guess.

I'm a big fan of electric cars, and I find them VERY interesting. I think they represent the future of transportation.

Keep it going people!

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