quote Originally posted by engine man: I am not trying to beat pyshics i just think that high voltage low amps is the way to go not this 100 200 volt stuff

Here are AC induction motors and controllers that run up to 400 volts. Motor and controller combos start at around $10K and go up from there: http://metricmind.com/motor.htm http://metricmind.com/

Yikes oh well having fun trying to just see if this motor will even turn I have made the armture but havent put any magnets in it yet . thats why i wanted to do the hydrostatic drive and just let the motor run a lot cheaper than that controler

quote Originally posted by JRP3: Here are AC induction motors and controllers that run up to 400 volts. Motor and controller combos start at around $10K and go up from there...

Hey man, you've been holding out! I like'em - the prices don't even bother me that much. The only problem I have is the amount, cost, and weight of the lithium battery packs needed to go with it. That would be at least five of the packs that were on eBay (72 volts x 5 = 360v) at $1600 ea. x 5 = $8000 That's also 360lbs of batteries, plus motor, gear reduction, controller, bms, charger, wiring, etc. It's getting closer though (for a price). That's much better than the thought of 360 volts worth of lead-acid cells.

[This message has been edited by toddshotrods (edited 01-28-2009).]

Will control of the current to the motor control rpm if so then wouldnt a Mosfet work not sure how exactly it works but did read it controls current

quote Originally posted by engine man: Will control of the current to the motor control rpm if so then wouldnt a Mosfet work not sure how exactly it works but did read it controls current

Yes, but unfortunately, current is a variable that's only calculated by the constants voltage & resistance. In other words, you can't just get a 'current controller'. That being said, there are two ways to control resistance: 1) Potentiometer (variable resistor) 2) Pulse Width Modulator (PWM)
For obvious reasons, any kind of resistor is bad ju-ju for an electric vehicle, so that leaves you with a PWM, which is basically the MOSFET you were inquiring about. It sends the full power to the motor in pulses, instead of resisting (providing a voltage drop) to it. The higher the frequency of the pulses is, the faster the motor goes. Imagine if you could flip the light switch in your bedroom really really fast... If you could, then it would appear that the light is constantly on, but just dimmer than if the switch was just on, and that's the same principle that the controllers work on for EVs.

I started writing a long dissertation for this post, but then I decided not to hand feed you, so I'm going to post a plethora of references for you to study. These references include AC vs DC, why mainstream distribution is now AC, high voltage/low current vs high current/low voltage, and a little bit of theory behind it all.
Enjoy!

http://answers.yahoo.com/qu...0070716121252AApdrEq
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_Currents
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_effect
http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...t_(electromagnetism)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_(physics)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Current_(electricity)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltage
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_resistance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulse_width_modulator

In short, the only real advantage of a high voltage/low current setup applies to AC... A power line carrying 30,000 volts @ .5 Amps (15,000 Watts) can use a transformer on the customer end that will drop it to 120 Volts @ 125 Amps (Also 15,000 Watts, assuming no transmission line voltage drop... ). The advantage comes from low current through the transmission lines, which results in less heat loss.

Power is Power. (refer to jscott's post) Voltage and Resistance (to a degree) are constants, (There is a phenomenon called an impedance curve with varying frequencies, but it usually is negligible in AC @ 50-60Hz) and current is a variable calculated from those two constants. You will be introducing mega risks (arcing), mega costs (batteries), and mega weight (batteries & motor), all of which are counterintuitive for an electric vehicle. Try it if you want, but trust me, you will waste a lot of time and money for an end product that you aren't happy with.

One thing I noticed on the Metric Mind site is that the single reduction gearbox is 8.64:1! The White Zombie Datsun, by comparison, has no transmission and uses either 3.70:1 or 4.11:1 gearing. So far, I am still planning to run DC but I'm listening. I am also enjoying the links fieroboom posted

Interesting question: What is the weight of all the parts in a Fiero associated with the gasoline-fueled drivetrain? That would include engine, transmission, exhaust, cooling system parts, coolant, fuel tank and lines, battery, weight of a full load of fuel, and all the associated mounts, brackets, and accessories to hold and make those parts work?

I seem to remember someone doing a comprehensive list of part weights of a Fiero they dismantled. I'd be interested in seeing how much of a Fiero's weight is devoted to using HC for energy.

For instance, a gallon of gasoline weights approximately 6.3 lbs and the 11.8 gallon tank from 87-88 weighs around 20 lbs including lines, pump, level sender, etc, so that adds up to 95 lbs. for a full tank.

JazzMan

I have a simple question - what do people use for the plugs and sockets on DIY Evs, for charging? Are people just using standard 220v plugs and receptacles like you can purchase at Lowe's or Home Depot? Are there custom EV specific plugs and receptacles avaliable, and where do you find them? I have been looking in all the EV links I have, and don't see anything???

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: Interesting question: What is the weight of all the parts in a Fiero associated with the gasoline-fueled drivetrain? That would include engine, transmission, exhaust, cooling system parts, coolant, fuel tank and lines, battery, weight of a full load of fuel, and all the associated mounts, brackets, and accessories to hold and make those parts work? I seem to remember someone doing a comprehensive list of part weights of a Fiero they dismantled. I'd be interested in seeing how much of a Fiero's weight is devoted to using HC for energy. For instance, a gallon of gasoline weights approximately 6.3 lbs and the 11.8 gallon tank from 87-88 weighs around 20 lbs including lines, pump, level sender, etc, so that adds up to 95 lbs. for a full tank. JazzMan

Interesting indeed... We do need more of a direct comparison of the components involved. I have mine completely apart, but all I have is a bathroom scale, and I'd prefer not to weigh a tank full of gas on that scale.... Of course, I could just weigh the tank, and then we can estimate on the weight of the fuel itself.
I don't have anything big enough to weigh my engine/trans/cradle setup tho... Maybe someone else that has access to large scales can weigh that? I think I might be able to weigh most everything else.

quote Originally posted by fieroboom: ...it's a good idea to have an easily accessible 110V receptacle to trickle charge while you're at work, etc, then do 220V or whatever you want at home...

Would that be best done with a separate receptacle, or a second cord with 220v plug on one end 110v on the other - and try to remember it's only for the EV? j/k

[This message has been edited by toddshotrods (edited 01-28-2009).]

Here's a good way to do it: http://driveev.com/jeepev/convpgs/charger.php
240 volt 30 amp twist lock plug with adapters to plug into 4 different types of outlets. It depends on what your charger can handle.

Cool, thanks guys - just doing some planning. Now to find a receptacle that's "me"

quote Originally posted by toddshotrods: Hey man, you've been holding out! I like'em - the prices don't even bother me that much. The only problem I have is the amount, cost, and weight of the lithium battery packs needed to go with it. That would be at least five of the packs that were on eBay (72 volts x 5 = 360v) at $1600 ea. x 5 = $8000 That's also 360lbs of batteries, plus motor, gear reduction, controller, bms, charger, wiring, etc. It's getting closer though (for a price). That's much better than the thought of 360 volts worth of lead-acid cells.

I didn't think you were interested in a high voltage AC system. Frankly if one were going in that direction I'd really try to get an AC Propulsion unit since they run around $25K and include motor, controller, DC/DC converter, and charger for that price. Problem is you'd need to convince them you're an expert in EV's and really know what you are doing. This guy got a hold of one but he used to run an EV business: http://www.attackforums.com/showthread.php?t=2419

quote Originally posted by fieroboom: Interesting indeed... We do need more of a direct comparison of the components involved. I have mine completely apart, but all I have is a bathroom scale, and I'd prefer not to weigh a tank full of gas on that scale.... Of course, I could just weigh the tank, and then we can estimate on the weight of the fuel itself. I don't have anything big enough to weigh my engine/trans/cradle setup tho... Maybe someone else that has access to large scales can weigh that? I think I might be able to weigh most everything else.

I would think that the weight of items that are specific to HC would be most relevent, for instance the cradle and suspension would be the same for both HC and EV, or any other method of driving the axles. IMHO the best way to go is using easily available mechanical parts for the transmission so I'd go with an Isuzu 5spd since it's very light weight and a more modern (and hopefully more efficient) design than the Muncie, and much more available than the Getrag. Using that tranny solves the problem of integrating a differential into the system and simplifies the EV design because the EV motor only needs to spin one way for forward and reverse. A clutch would not be necessary since an EV motor doesn't idle at a stop, so coming up with a way to bolt a clutch disc spline center to the coupling on the motor shaft would be the hardest thing (not that hard) unless specific couplings are are available to connect motor shaft to tranny input shaft. The Isuzu is the lightest tranny offered originally in the Fiero.

The more I think about it the more stuff I can think of that's specific to HC, like the evaporative cannister, big chunk of the wiring, shifter assembly with various cables and brackets, throttle cables and linkages, even the little heat shields above the exhaust cutouts.

Anyway, back to lurker mode, don't want to cause any more problems.

JazzMan

quote Originally posted by engine man: Will control of the current to the motor control rpm if so then wouldnt a Mosfet work not sure how exactly it works but did read it controls current

in energy and trans we made a DC remote control car. speed control was achieved by a RC servo and a connector, so that the servo would push the connections together, the larger the surface area touching the faster the car went. assuming u could do something like that if u worked at it, and obviously thats not a problem for u. also, i do actually know a guy who works at a tool and die shop

I looked up the coolant capacity and it's about 14 qts, so 3.5 gal. at 8 lbs per gallon that's another 28 lbs.

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: I would think that the weight of items that are specific to HC would be most relevent, JazzMan

The ICE components are considerable...however batteries weigh a ton, (literally) If you are using lead-acid any. Fiero conversions generally are going to weigh about 1,000 pounds more than the original Fiero. A lithium-ion based version has a chance of coming in at the same weight.

My lithium pack should come in around 250 lbs for 30 mile estimated range at 108 volts nominal. The motor is 82 lbs, controller 15 lbs, charger maybe 20-30? So I might actually come in lighter than the 2500 or so stock weight.

quote Originally posted by JRP3: My lithium pack should come in around 250 lbs for 30 mile estimated range at 108 volts nominal. The motor is 82 lbs, controller 15 lbs, charger maybe 20-30? So I might actually come in lighter than the 2500 or so stock weight.

yeah but thats a 30mile range. if u want to match the ICE range u gotta put in an extra 750lbs for a 120mile range, and thats still low. what ur doing is usable only if u never go farther than 15miles away from ur house, or if u have a place to charge everywhere u go thats more than that

Well I am being somewhat conservative in my range estimate. Using 250 wh/mi I could get closer to 40 miles, if I only pull 200 wh/mi I'd get close to 50.

dont know if you have been to this site but it seems to be good price
http://www.electricvehiclesusa.com/

Yes they're pretty good though most sites seem to have prices within a few bucks of each other for similar products. No one's giving out big discounts that I've found, at least not yet. Obviously you have to be careful what they charge for shipping, some sites show good prices then slam you on the shipping.

? can i take any 12 volt motor and put higher volts to it and it makes more power or do you need a certian type of DC motor

Your math is fairly close. I can't comment on the Watt-hours/mile thing because I don't know. There are a lot more variables involved, though. For instance, it takes more Ah to drag race a car 1/4 mile than it takes to drive 1/4 mile at slow speed; acceleration eats up a lot of Ah. Also, RC batteries are commonly rated at usage cycles that thrash the chemistry to an inch of its life, and used that way don't last very long at all. A guy at my work is into 3D flying and puffs cells all the time (puffing a cell is killing it, usually by overly fast discharge/charge abuse and resulting in the cell puffing up like a balloon).

To get meaningful life out of Li chemistry the charge state needs to be kept between 20% and 80% and max charge/discharge rates kept reasonably low compared to theoretical max. That's how Toyota is getting 150K+ miles on their LiIon packs. Even with those restrictions, Li chemistry is good for almost double the power density compared to NiMH and even more compared to Pb.

JazzMan

quote Originally posted by engine man: ? can i take any 12 volt motor and put higher volts to it and it makes more power or do you need a certian type of DC motor

You need a motor with a fairly heavy frame, windings, and a commutator with many segments and large brushes, at least 4, 8 are better. They will be around 40 lbs and up with a 6 inch diameter and up. A 200 lb 11 inch motor would be awesome. Assuming you're talking about a series brushed DC motor. Forklift motors are good because they are usually made to run 36 or 48 volts with neutral brush timing, you advance the brushes to run higher voltage. If you are thinking of using a forklift type motor read everything you can in this thread: http://www.diyelectriccar.c...osing-good-7598.html

quote Originally posted by JRP3: The 4200 mAh = 4.2 Ah. But when putting batteries in series Voltage is additive but Ah is not. To increase Ah you need to parallel the batteries, which keeps the voltage the same. So to get 350 volts you'd need 50 7 volt batteries but you'd only have 4.2 Ah worth, not much at all. To get your 14700 watt hours you'd need 42 Ah, which means you'd then need to parallel 10 strings of of the series connected 50 batteries, for a grand total of 500 batteries. Then there is the fact that those 7 volt 4.2 Ah RC batteries are actually made up of 2 3.2 volt cells in series, if you are talking about lithium. What you basically have is a wiring nightmare with a good chance of individual cells becoming unbalanced and dieing a premature death. You need an active and complex battery management system to make something like that work.

DING, DING DING!!!

And this is the problem with LiION batteries. The control system for a 500 cell Li-Ion battery pack is far beyond the capabilities of the individual hobbiest to build and develop. If you start playing with 500 Li-Ion batteries and get one of them in trouble and go into thermal runaway you are going to have that battery pack light up like the 4th of July.

Until a new chemistry is developed without carbon in the anode this is always going to be a problem. I don't see an easy solution.

quote Originally posted by JRP3: ...A 200 lb 11 inch motor would be awesome...

My plans are based on the Netgains TransWarP 11 - 229lbs, and it has a TH400 tailshaft to accept my driveshaft

quote Originally posted by jscott1: ...But again, the payoff misses the point. A V8 Fiero certainly doesn't pay for itself, nor does a chop top. Some things are cool to have in their own right, and can be justified other ways.

That post (Page 5) was the tipping point for me. This thread took me from skepticism to interest, and that post helped me cross over to the "greener" grass. If you weigh it strictly by the numbers, EVs still don't really make sense - for most people. Most people would actually save more with a good subcompact, and some common sense. I do believe that the day is coming when EVs will be a viable mainstream alternative, but it's not here yet.

However, there are other benefits to this that can't be measured by comparison and cost. I have possibilities I could only have dreamed of with an ICE-based powertrain. Even though my ideal Lithium battery-powered electric powertrain is going to be at least as heavy as the ICE it will replace, the plan I am developing will have awesome weight distribution, really low Cg and polar moment, because I can break the components up and locate them whereever I need to. Top that with the fact that I don't have to incorporate exhaust and cooling, and I have a combination that is worth every penny it will cost and more!

[This message has been edited by toddshotrods (edited 01-29-2009).]

quote Originally posted by jscott1: DING, DING DING!!! And this is the problem with LiION batteries. The control system for a 500 cell Li-Ion battery pack is far beyond the capabilities of the individual hobbiest to build and develop. If you start playing with 500 Li-Ion batteries and get one of them in trouble and go into thermal runaway you are going to have that battery pack light up like the 4th of July. Until a new chemistry is developed without carbon in the anode this is always going to be a problem. I don't see an easy solution.

Well actually it's already here. It's called LiFePo4 or lithium polymer and they come in large format cells, which I'll be using, so you don't need to have hundreds of them. You can get them up to and probably beyond 600 ah, I'll be using 100 ah cells, and there are BMS's available to keep them balanced, and they don't go into thermal runaway, but they can be killed by overcharging or over discharging.

There are even more advanced technologies such as A123 and Altairnano which also avoid thermal runaway but aren't available to the average DIYer.

quote Originally posted by JRP3: The 4200 mAh = 4.2 Ah. But when putting batteries in series Voltage is additive but Ah is not. To increase Ah you need to parallel the batteries, which keeps the voltage the same. So to get 350 volts you'd need 50 7 volt batteries but you'd only have 4.2 Ah worth, not much at all. To get your 14700 watt hours you'd need 42 Ah, which means you'd then need to parallel 10 strings of of the series connected 50 batteries, for a grand total of 500 batteries. Then there is the fact that those 7 volt 4.2 Ah RC batteries are actually made up of 2 3.2 volt cells in series, if you are talking about lithium. What you basically have is a wiring nightmare with a good chance of individual cells becoming unbalanced and dieing a premature death. You need an active and complex battery management system to make something like that work.

Just a note... This math is correct, but there are no 7VDC (not that I'm aware of, anyway) RC battery packs. They are all multiples of 1.2V cells, so 2.4, 4.8, 7.2, 9.6, and so on.

quote Originally posted by JRP3: Just so you know, the Warp11 is built off a forklift motor. I can track down which one if you're interested in looking for one yourself. If you can find one a basic rebuild, (new bearings, brushes, a cleanup), and a 12 degree advance on the brushes and you've got the same motor for a lot less money. Of course you still have to come up with the yoke attachment but that shouldn't be too hard, maybe even get one from Netgain.

You bet I'm interested. I can fab my own tailshaft, if they won't sell me one. I was just counting that as an added benefit, since they offer it.

Sending you a PM in a little bit. Post the forklift motor info here, in case it can benefit someone else too.

I see i was off on the decimal point by one after i look

quote Originally posted by JRP3: The 4200 mAh = 4.2 Ah. But when putting batteries in series Voltage is additive but Ah is not. To increase Ah you need to parallel the batteries, which keeps the voltage the same. So to get 350 volts you'd need 50 7 volt batteries but you'd only have 4.2 Ah worth, not much at all. To get your 14700 watt hours you'd need 42 Ah, which means you'd then need to parallel 10 strings of of the series connected 50 batteries, for a grand total of 500 batteries. Then there is the fact that those 7 volt 4.2 Ah RC batteries are actually made up of 2 3.2 volt cells in series, if you are talking about lithium. What you basically have is a wiring nightmare with a good chance of individual cells becoming unbalanced and dieing a premature death. You need an active and complex battery management system to make something like that work.

yeah hes right. u can add up the Ah or the voltage, not both.

quote Originally posted by toddshotrods: You bet I'm interested. I can fab my own tailshaft, if they won't sell me one. I was just counting that as an added benefit, since they offer it. Sending you a PM in a little bit. Post the forklift motor info here, in case it can benefit someone else too.

Here you go, this is what you want to look for, Hyster motor 325774, I think it's actually made by GE so it might be in other lifts besides Hyster.
http://www.autobatteryelectric.com/325774.htm
The end shaft might be different than this.