Yup i have to say that the only realy free energy would be the sun no matter waether you are trying to boil watter to drive a steam engine or a wind turbin it heats and cools the earth and makes every thing work . I think you can use its power though to change the energy to somthing we can use in a car like hydrogen by using electrolisis the only thing now is when you get to far from home you dont have any place to get hydogen to put in your car and burn or run through the fuel cell

quote Originally posted by jscott1: Here's a thought... how much of the Sun's output ends up on the Earth? 1%? maybe 0.1%? Actually one part in 2 billion. If we had giant solar collectors in space to even capture a fraction of that we would have unlimited power for billions of years.

More than enough solar energy hits the planet every day for all our needs. No reason to attempt incredibly expensive space missions to capture it when it's delivered right to our doorsteps every day

...completely surprised that no one has brought up geothermal (maybe they did as I only quickly scanned the other messages).

Anyways, here is another free energy source (not counting the technology of tapping into it - but then the same can be said for all other sources, including solar - the process for making solar cells is hardly enviromently friendly). Anyways, back on topic, I have seen a few homes and business around me that are using geothermo energy to heat the home/buildings as well as heat water, etc. Now if you were to use this technology to create steam and drive a turbine, one could create electricity.

While I think about it, hydro is another source of free energy - nothing can be simpler than using water to turn a turbine to make electricity (again not counting the effects of building a dam).

As for gas tax - I read/heard that there are are few "politicians" that are already planning for the future (and considering it now) for the loss of monies on tax due to electric/hybrid/more fuel efficient cars. The plan was to tax people on the distance they drive using some sort of GPS monitoring system.

I have also read some stuff on ceramic batteries that could be a real alternative to our current battery problem - but these are so far off to becoming reality right now, I doubt that they will see the light of day unless there is some sort of major break through (currently these batteries only exist on the nanometer scale).

anyways...

quote Originally posted by fieroboom: So what you have is your fuel's energy potential, minus the energy needed to obtain/create your fuel, minus the energy wasted in whatever machine you use it in, and that's your net output. Divide that by the original figure of the fuel's potential energy, and voila, there's your efficiency percentage.

Exactly, it's what is known as EROEI, Energy Returned On Energy Invested, and always needs to be considered.

quote Also, I think a lot of you are interested in ways of just being supplemental in your current setup and environment, and not attempting the gung-ho, all-out super energy efficient methods from start to finish that some of us look at... I understand and applaud you, and I wish everyone didn't jump on your back screaming that your idea is for naught.

The problem is that at this point we need to think about game changing advances, not small gains in efficiencies here and there. If we don't step up in a big way it may be too little too late. World population is growing, (a whole other topic), and they all want to live like us. We use 25% of the worlds oil. Do the math.

quote Originally posted by jscott1: I remember when I was in grade school we took a tour of the local Nuclear Plant, (can't imagine that happening today, but I digress) anyway as they were describing the whole process and how it works, I couldn't believe the whole nuclear fission business was just to heat up water. I'm thinking why don't they just start a fire and heat up the water? It was then that I realized that energy is a scarce commodity and it has to all come from somewhere. All these devices that use stored energy may be efficient in some manner, but Hydrogen, steam, and even electricity are not in and of themselves sources of energy. They are just a means of transporting energy from one place to another. Same with ethanol, it's just solar energy converted to alcohol, even gasoline is just the stored solar energy from the decaying plants and animals that lived off the plants. It all boils down to solar energy. Here's a thought... how much of the Sun's output ends up on the Earth? 1%? maybe 0.1%? Actually one part in 2 billion. If we had giant solar collectors in space to even capture a fraction of that we would have unlimited power for billions of years.

Excellent point. Herein lies the secret of why we still use gasoline... since the process to create it is natural, the only energy we waste is drilling for it (EDIT: I'm over-simplifying here, please don't rip my head off! ). But, the caveat is that the natural process is slow in comparison to our demand, so we're using it faster than the Earth can manufacture it.
The ideas of running the DeLorean on waste in Back to the Future were viewed as far-out, crazy, futuristic technology, but the funny part is, we've had the technology to run our cars on waste. Did you know that one pound of cow manure can generate about 1 cubic foot of Gobar gas? Gobar gas is usually about 80% Methane, 18-19% CO₂, and about 1-2% Nitrogen, depending on the composition of the raw waste material. One cubic foot of Gobar gas is about enough to cook a day's meals for 4-6 people on a gas stove/oven. So the waste from one cow will produce about 30 cubic feet of gas per day. I haven't found any figures on Human waste, but I'm sure it's pretty close, if not better, since cows have three stomachs, and they burp about 10 cubic feet of Methane per day. Since we as humans don't digest that completely, I would venture a guess that our raw waste contains more Methane than a cow's.
A very rough estimation (you have to start somewhere...) for an ICE is about 18 cubic feet of Methane per HP per hour, so one cow isn't going to cut it for your driving needs... But here's the crazy part... Using the same methods, decomposition of vegetable matter produces about SEVEN TIMES the amount of feces, because feces is already partially decomposed (your burps & farts are methane being released). So assuming you could decomp the same amount of raw vegetable matter, you're looking at roughly 280 cubic feet of Methane PER DAY (just for vegetable matter alone)... Now we're getting somewhere.

This is another one of my ideas for my eco-house; dual methane digesters - one to replace the sewage system, and one for the kitchen garbage disposal (vegetable matter).
Suddenly, collecting your cat & dog poop in order to add it to your digester for your gas supply doesn't seem like such a chore...
Methane digesters are pretty autonomous; the bacteria present in the deomposition process are self-mantaining, just like everything else is nature (decomp is a natural process). It only needs input if you want to maintain the highest efficiency, and even that isn't a huge chore. The CO₂ to Nitrogen ratio needs to be maintained close to a 30:1 ratio, the pH level needs to be maintained between 6.8-8.0, and the temperature should be maintained at about 85-105^o or 120-140^o. Decomposition will happen regardless, and since it's an exothermic (heat-generating) reaction, good insulation and occasional heating will keep it very efficient.

So what about the 280 cubic feet of gas? Well, divide that by the 18 cubic feet per hp per hr needed for an ICE, and you get 15.5... For the sake of simple discussion without getting lost in conversions, I'll call this number your hph (horsepower per hour). 15.5 hph is hardly enough to power your Hummer or Escalade anywhere, so what do you do? You build yourself a hybrid, and by hybrid, I mean a battery powered vehicle with a small ICE (5hp) engine to supplement charging. People are building 100% duty cycle welders with 5hp engines and unregulated alternators. You 'put the pedal to the metal', and your 5hp engine kicks in, delivering 140 Amps to your electric motor, taking some of the strain off your batteries, and with a regulated charging system, your 5hp engine could gain you a much longer distance than 40 mi for your electric car. Suddenly, 15.5 hph running your little charging engine for 3 hrs straight seems like a huge accomplishment in comparison to the straight battery pack you were considering before...

Well, I hope I'm not boring anyone. I've done an exorbitant amount of research, and have a lot of crazy ideas that I feel would work. I have some excellent plans for some continuous Methane digesters, and I can't wait to get my own house & yard so I can try it out! Most of the ideas I have are low-cost DIY things, and there all 'small battles'. Thanks to physics, there's never going to be one single answer (at least not IMO) to fix our problems of dwindling fossil fuels, but if you win enough small battles, you can create a system that works.

Edit to add resources:
http://www.green-trust.org/.../biofuel/methane.htm
http://www.riverdeep.net/cu...2502t_cowpower.jhtml (280 Liters = 9.888 ft³)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biogas

[This message has been edited by fieroboom (edited 01-12-2009).]

quote Originally posted by fieroboom: So the waste from one cow will produce about 30 cubic feet of gas per day.

This reminds me of a good anecdote from the mid-1970s, when I was actively involved in several alternative energy projects. (I was even listed by the U.S. Department of Energy as a "Solar and Wind Energy Consultant," but that's another goofy story.) Back then there were two Federally-funded pilot projects located about 100 miles away from each other. The objective of the first project, in the Texas panhandle, was to produce commercial quantities of methane (i.e. natural gas) from feedlot waste (i.e. cattle manure). The goal of the second project, in southwestern Kansas, was to efficiently produce agricultural fertilizer from natural gas. Hmmmm. Gas from fertilizer, fertilizer from gas. I always wondered what might happen if the two projects were somehow interconnected ... would they run away?

quote Originally posted by Marvin McInnis: This reminds me of a good anecdote from the mid-1970s, when I was actively involved in several alternative energy projects. (I was even listed by the U.S. Department of Energy as a "Solar and Wind Energy Consultant," but that's another goofy story.) Back then there were two Federally-funded pilot projects located about 100 miles away from each other. The objective of the first project, in the Texas panhandle, was to produce commercial quantities of methane (i.e. natural gas) from feedlot waste (i.e. cattle manure). The goal of the second project, in southwestern Kansas, was to efficiently produce agricultural fertilizer from natural gas. Hmmmm. Gas from fertilizer, fertilizer from gas. I always wondered what might happen if the two projects were somehow interconnected ... would they run away?

Well, if you take a step back and look at everything in nature, including animals and humans, everything reaches an equilibrium, everything is adaptive, and everything comes full cycle - hence the eco system. If you take a pill every day, your body develops a tolerance, so you have to increase the dosage. If you severely prune a tree enough times, you get a mini tree (aka Bonsai tree). So all I'm attempting to do is create an environment where you take advantage of that natural effect, and benefit from it, and instead of wasting all of your, well, waste, put it use. Eat food, take a dump, extract the Methane, extract the water, and you end up with some Methane gas to cook more food, some water, and some fertilizer to grow more food. You'll never fully recoup everything, but the way we live now isn't recouping anything. We pay the city to take away our sewage. We pay the city to take away our trash. We pay for power. We pay for water. We pay, pay, pay, because we're either too lazy or too ignorant to understand that every time you flush your toilet, you're flushing energy. Every time your trash man gets your trash, he's taking your energy, and you're paying him to! Incinerate the trash, use the heat from it, recycle or toss the leftovers. Process your sewage, use the gains to supplement your energy & supply needs (including the gas to run your incinerator). Then, whatever you lack from transference, make up for it with solar energy, since it's a gain that you need not have any input for (other than the setup of the equipment).

Since I'm attempting to create a full cycle environment, it's difficult to explain all of the aspects of my ideas without merging into other aspects, so it probably sounds like I'm a crazy nit-wit, because I'm sure I'm the only one that envisions it the way I do... Also, it's difficult to speak broadly because so many people only see one aspect, and then jump on it and run with it, and all the flaws it has. I'm really impressed and pleasantly surprised that no one has yet jumped on my ideas to rip them apart... Maybe I've got some of you thinking... When I explain it to anyone, they immediately imagine a huge farm place from the 50's that's out in the middle of nowhere with all this weird stuff set up, and a life that resembles an Amish way of life, but the reality is, it can happen in a modern environment, even on a 1/2 acre plot of land. You should see the looks I get after explaining everything and then saying "The only bills you'd have to pay would be internet and cable TV". That snaps them out of the 1950's farm illusion and back into the modern world, with a puzzled look on their face, and immediately wanting to know more.

In case any of you are wondering, here is a rough sketch of a continuous Methane digester where you input raw waste, and the output is the "slurry", the soup of what's left after extracting the Methane:



Your collector at the top can be as large as you want it to be, and it works off of gravity. The heavier it is, the more pressure your collected gas will have, but due to buoyancy, it won't completely fall into the sludge, because it's airtight. I imagine you could also set up a compressor if you wanted to store it in something like one of the big 500 gallon Propane tanks people have in their yards (Haven't researched that aspect yet regarding the safety of it). It would require more energy, but might be worth it if you're collecting large amounts of gas that you aren't using fast enough directly from the collector.
The system is all gravity fed. Your collector is the highest point, and your slurry output is the same level as your mixing tank (which would just be inputs from your toilets, etc). So when it's up to full operating capacity, more raw waste in pushes more slurry out. My plan is to distill the slurry, recouping the water from it, pump that back into my own holding tank, and outputting the dry waste to be used for fertilizer (because it's still rich in Nitrogen). The distillation & pumping is going to require a lot of energy, but I think if it's set up properly, it would be worth the gains.

If you're generating enough methane to power anything then I'd say you're full of crap But seriously, the human body is pretty efficient at getting usable energy from our food. How much methane do you think is going to come out of one turd a day? However, to pursue the idea, one of the dry, composting toilets might be a better setup. No pumping and mixing, just a pipe coming off the tank to collect the gases, and then the solids are supposed to break down and create a dry fertilizer that you can shovel out and put on your garden, or sell to someone who wants it. I think one is called the envirolet or something.
Edit: I take it all back. Crap away http://www.wired.com/scienc...h/news/2005/07/68127

[This message has been edited by JRP3 (edited 01-12-2009).]

quote Originally posted by JRP3: If you're generating enough methane to power anything then I'd say you're full of crap But seriously, the human body is pretty efficient at getting usable energy from our food. How much methane do you think is going to come out of one turd a day? However, to pursue the idea, one of the dry, composting toilets might be a better setup. No pumping and mixing, just a pipe coming off the tank to collect the gases, and then the solids are supposed to break down and create a dry fertilizer that you can shovel out and put on your garden, or sell to someone who wants it. I think one is called the envirolet or something. Edit: I take it all back. Crap away http://www.wired.com/scienc...h/news/2005/07/68127

I'm glad you found the Rwanda prison link... Halfway into your post, I stopped reading to go find it and post it...
"The university rector said that the Rwandan biogas facilities, which are currently in half of the 30 prisons around the country, now contribute half of the energy needs for cooking and lighting in each location."
HALF of their energy for BOTH heating and lighting... and I'm not even considering using it for lighting in my setup (except as a backup if all power fails for some reason).
But I got you researching... Little battles. That's what it is. That's why the tortoise won the race...

Just a few more facts, the average human excretes an average of 2.5lbs of waste per day. If you use the same figures as cow dung (which I think are too low, since cows digest more efficiently), that's 2.5 ft³ of gas per day per person... And 1 ft³ is enough to cook a day's meals for 4-6 people... It would add up quickly, and that's just from your sewage. Any vegetable matter you can digest is 7 times that, at a somewhat slower rate. Of course, these figures are all estimations, but I'm trying to calculate things on the low side so that when I implement it I might be pleasantly surprised...

EDIT:
The dry composting toilets take away from my vision, because I want the house to be "normal" as far as usage is concerned. Why? To prove that you don't need to live an Amish lifestyle in order to be energy efficient. You use regular toilets, flush it normally, then recoup the water later. It's a little less efficient, but it's a negligible loss I accepting in order to maintain a "normal" operation and a lifestyle in which you needn't really drastically change your habits, except for not paying any utility bills...

[This message has been edited by fieroboom (edited 01-12-2009).]

quote Originally posted by JRP3: More than enough solar energy hits the planet every day for all our needs. No reason to attempt incredibly expensive space missions to capture it when it's delivered right to our doorsteps every day

This is true...however, it is neither practical, (or desirable) to cover the entire Earth's surface with solar panels. Solar farms would have to be built in remote areas where they sunlight is not needed for agriculture or general plant or human use. And yes, we should do this.

But here is the catch... the Solar radiation that strikes the Earth is only 1/4 what it would be of a round flat disk of the same diameter. This is because the Earth is a sphere with twice the surface area of a flat disk, and it's rotating such that only 1/2 is in the sun at any given time.

And then on average about 30% of the sunlight is reflected back into space before it even reaches the Earth's surface, and that's on a clear day. You still have the solar panels at the bottom of miles and miles of atmosphere that further absorb the energy. When you add it all up, a space solar panel has many many times more energy density than any panel on Earth could ever have.

A solar panel in space has none of these limitations. Yes it would be insanely expensive, but this is the kind of project that would stimulate the economy and advance technology in the process. Would it solve all the world's energy problems? Probably not, but it's one step towards energy independence.

My point was that so much solar energy hits the planet that a small amount of that is enough to power all our needs. I think I've read that a relatively small section of panels in the southwest desert would give us everything we need. Throw in some windmills for variety and some storage batteries and we're good to go. No need for the space shot.

quote Originally posted by JRP3: Actually I've read that the dry toilets are much more efficient since you don't have as much liquid, which slows production and has to be removed otherwise. Not to mention the energy of pumping the flush water in the first place. I don't see a composting toilet forcing one to live an Amish lifestyle.

First of all, I love discussion and contribution... But if you're going to contribute facts, especially ones that you feel go against the idea of the thread, please post some researchable material to go along with it. If you heard something, then try to look it up if you can, so you can share the data. You could be pointing out something I hadn't thought of, but if I can't research it, then it doesn't really mean much to me. I hope you don't take that as bashing; I just don't feel that you've put research time into it, whereas I have - a lot of time reading actually.

So in as much of a polite manner as possible, I'm going to disagree with you, and here's why:

According to wikipedia on Biogas Production:
"Biogas can be produced utilizing anaerobic digesters. These plants can be fed with energy crops such as maize silage or biodegradable wastes including sewage sludge and food waste."
Sewage sludge is what is created when you flush the toilet and your waste goes down the drain with the water. It doesn't turn to sludge immediately, but if you've ever cracked open a septic tank, you'll know exactly what I mean.

Also, in the production of Gober Gas (also spelled Gobar Gas), they actually add water to cow dung, because the moist environment is where the bacteria thrive that break down the waste.
"The manure is directed to the pit, usually directly from the cattle shed. The pit is then filled with a required quantity of water or wastewater. The gas pipe is connected to the kitchen fire place through control valves. The flammable methane gas generated out of this is largely odourless and smokeless. The residue left after the extraction of the gas is used as fertiliser. Owing to its simplicity in implementation and use of cheap raw materials in the villages, it is often quoted as one of the most environmentally sound energy source for the rural needs.[19][20] [21]"

Most likely what you have read are marketing and selling points of the dry composting toilets. I'm sure they work very well, but I don't want to be changing my own "litter box" every so often... In sales, you always point out the positives, even if it's a stretch, and from the looks of the ads I've seen about them, they're doing a pretty good job of it.

In case you'd like some more to read, here is a pretty good general info site on alternative energies:
http://www.makinemekanik.com/ It's kinda more like cliff notes, or little tidbits of info.
Here is some good reading material on Biogas:
http://www.habmigern2003.info/biogas/biogas.html (be sure to check out the Biodigesters link; it's pretty interesting stuff)

Also, I need to apologize, I got too excited earlier and posted the wrong figures... In this statement:

quote Originally posted by fieroboom: Gobar gas is usually about 80% Methane, 18-19% CO2, and about 1-2% Nitrogen, depending on the composition of the raw waste material.

I mixed up the figures with natural gas... Natural gas is 80% Methane, Gobar Gas is about 55-65% methane, 30-35% carbon dioxide, with some hydrogen, nitrogen and other traces.


Edit to address the flush water pumping statement... The only pumping that will take place is pumping the distilled water back into a holding tank after it's been distilled from the slurry; the rest is gravity fed. Once the system is at operating capacity, more raw waste in pushes more slurry out, thanks to the physics of water pressure.
Oh, and your statement about water is probably true if you're flushing chlorinated/treated water, which is something I hadn't thought of before... I imagine the chlorine and whatever other treating chemicals are used would kill or at least hinder the bacteria needed in the anaerobic environment... I need to do more reading on that though, before I take an official stand on it.

[This message has been edited by fieroboom (edited 01-12-2009).]

Ok first off it is called advanced propulsion we all know that we can get electricity from all sorts of thing but what do we do with it just chage batteries and run the car or is there somthing we can make to save fuel not by 2 or 3 precent 25, 30 or more . what are the renewable fuels we can make or have . This is why i talk hydorogen you can make it from water and when it is burned it turns into thats right water that is a renewable . I know there is a few way to make Hydrogen But at home your only choice would be electrolisis vary costly if you plug into the house owch so you need to get cheap electric to do that solar wind or other . you can make a better engine to go in the car more efficant such as a electric or steam or sterling engine . Ok lets look at electric it has great power and efficantcy but the battries are have and cant get only about 50 miles and take way to long to charge Sterling engine is big bulky has potential but needs to be worked on steam engines powerfull size is good but the boiler need to be down sized . that what we have to work with unless some one come up with some magnetic propulsion that can be layed ot across the land . Hell do like a moonshiner make some good old XXX grany did .

quote Originally posted by engine man: Ok lets look at electric it has great power and efficantcy but the battries are have and cant get only about 50 miles and take way to long to charge

That is simply not true. Lithium batteries are one third the weight of lead acid, can get over 200 miles right now, (244 EPA estimate for the Tesla Roadster), and the Altairnano and A123 batteries CAN be fast charged. The technology for battery powered vehicles exists right NOW and is improving all the time. Everyone already has an electrical outlet, almost no one has a hydrogen filling station.
Which one do you think is closer to being ready? I, like many others, am converting a car to electricity at home, on a budget, that's how basic the technology can be. Some people are using their home solar panels and windmills to charge their EV's for free.

Ok you tell me that the battries get 200 miles befor a charge and they can be charged fast then what the hell is the Chevy volt some sh*t box joke from GM they claim 40 miles then it gota run on it's genorator and there proud of that thing no wonder GM is going down

Well the one thing I left out is that the 244 mile Tesla Roadster costs $110.000 and they've sold over 100 of them and have a waiting list for the rest. However, it shows the technology is there and with time costs will come down. Tesla are close to showing their new sedan which should cost around $50,000 I think. Tesla is a small startup company basically building a new vehicle by hand. If it were produced in volume by a large manufacturer it could be much cheaper, and hopefully will be.
http://www.teslamotors.com/
GM is doing a hybrid with the Volt because they know the general public isn't ready to have their potential range limited. Even with a fast charge battery EV's will be somewhat limited until fast charge stations are built. You probably need 480 volts and 100 amps to fast charge, not unreasonable for industrial power.

interesting concept if someone can make it work: http://www.infinite-energy....ne/issue51/papp.html

quote Originally posted by fieroboom: Edit to address the flush water pumping statement... The only pumping that will take place is pumping the distilled water back into a holding tank after it's been distilled from the slurry; the rest is gravity fed. Once the system is at operating capacity, more raw waste in pushes more slurry out, thanks to the physics of water pressure. Oh, and your statement about water is probably true if you're flushing chlorinated/treated water, which is something I hadn't thought of before... I imagine the chlorine and whatever other treating chemicals are used would kill or at least hinder the bacteria needed in the anaerobic environment... I need to do more reading on that though, before I take an official stand on it.

Yes you need to take into account the energy required to get your water into your house even before you flush. That means pumping and treating it, which, if you then need to remove it in the end, reduces efficiency if the process can be done without water.

quote Originally posted by Mickey_Moose: interesting concept if someone can make it work: http://www.infinite-energy....ne/issue51/papp.html

"... if someone can make it work" is the important part. See "Mr. Papf's Perpetual Motion Machine" by physicist Richard Feynman for a different perspective. The critical test of such inventions is if another individual or group can build one from plans and make it operate as claimed, all without the original inventor being present.

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 01-13-2009).]

quote Originally posted by fieroboom: Did you say this incorrectly? The surface area of a sphere is 4X that of a circle...

True, but you have to be careful where you take credit for the fact that the circular disk would not be rotating, versus the Earth which does. If the flat disk were to rotate (considering both sides of the disk) it has half the area of the sphere.

So if you consider only one side of a flat disk, which has 1/4 the area of a sphere of the same size yet it would receive half of the solar radiation that the sphere does at any given moment, (since only half the sphere is lit at any given moment).

Or said another way the flat disk would have twice the energy density of the side of the Earth facing the sun, and 4x the energy density of the entire Earth.

[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 01-13-2009).]

Why is this not in off topic... what does it have to do with General Fiero Chat? Some one putting a thermohydrosolar composting energy transfer storage unit in an 84 base coupe?

[This message has been edited by carbon (edited 01-13-2009).]

It has gone a bit off but it was to think about how to power a fiero or any other car down the road but it kinda got where every one is talking about all sorts of ways to get power. I dont see that any one cares that it is in the genral fiero chat due to it was to be about engines or advanced propulsion of a car

It doesn't seem Totally Off/Topic to me because to figure out how to incrporate "advanced propulsion" into a Fiero you have to first figure out what type to use. There have been discussions about incorporating it such as putting an acetylene tank filled with compressed hydrogen (I think) in the center hump...

Whoever said that I am not trying to start something, just trying to throw a little humor in. I didn't consider what would happen either until someone else shed light on the "possibility".

[This message has been edited by toddshotrods (edited 01-13-2009).]

quote Originally posted by carbon: Why is this not in off topic... what does it have to do with General Fiero Chat? Some one putting a thermohydrosolar composting energy transfer storage unit in an 84 base coupe?

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There, that should keep us in the GFC forum... hehehe

Personally, I would rather chat in GFC, because there doesn't seem to be nearly as many people arguing. And when I say arguing, I mean trashcan arguing with attitudes. So far, this has been an extremely nice discussion with lots of ideas floating around, and I'm really enjoying it...

I know one thing it has me drawing things up to understand how to make that better mouse trap as they would say i feel it is a good thing makes you start thinking instead of just siting there pi$$ing and moaning every thing is bad.

quote Originally posted by engine man: I know one thing it has me drawing things up to understand how to make that better mouse trap as they would say i feel it is a good thing makes you start thinking instead of just siting there pi$$ing and moaning every thing is bad.

Precisely. Whether we all agree or not is irrelevant... We're all thinking, and that's what it's all about.

okay, to stay on-topic let's post up some solar/electric Fieros....

I'll start:

[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 01-13-2009).]

Ok how many watts are the solar panals puting out last i knew it takes 746 watts per HP so if it takes 20 HP to go 65 mph in a fiero thats almost 15000 watts so the solar would only be good for recharging the battries i dont think he can get the wattage out of them but it's cool

In regards to the discussion about cow poo, Top Gear did a test of it a few years ago (season 4 episode 6 to be exact):
http://www.break.com/userco...Top-Gear-415222.html

Solar panels on a vehicle can only supplement the charging, to either power the 12 volt system or give a little recharge to the traction pack. Unless it's a really small and light vehicle: http://sunnev.com/

Ok I hope that the realy smart guys can tell me if I take two wedge chambers and they where air tight to each other and slid apart if i put air pressure to on would they line back up and make a square or just sit there I drew it but dont have a way to make it jpeg so cant post it to show yo what i mean

Could this be what we will have powering are cars an all magnet motor no electricity check out this V Gate Motor
http://www.youtube.com/watc...cg0c&feature=related

Probably not, energy has to come from somewhere. It looks as if he's created a frictionless setup using magnets, so once started it can rotate freely. Notice we didn't see how the motor started spinning, and I'm sure once you put a load on it the spinning stops. Typical of the free energy devices we've seen for the last 100 or so years, no substance.
The way I imagine this usually goes is someone has an idea and creates something that seems really efficient, and they think to themselves "if I can just improve this a little bit I'll have free energy", not realizing that little improvement is impossible.