They've been hyping that system for a while but I've never seen prices or real world applications. It seems promising but.....

quote Originally posted by JRP3: They've been hyping that system for a while but I've never seen prices or real world applications. It seems promising but.....

I emailed, but am not holding a lot of hope. The gave no indications of pricing or availability on the site, only talk of "licensing". That usually means we need a sucker with deep pockets to make it work.

[This message has been edited by toddshotrods (edited 01-22-2009).]

I am planing on doing and designing a system with some help want to buy a license LOL

Is there anything radically different inside those controller cases that would prevent a more traditional aftermarket powertrain unit manufacturer from building them? I mean the hard parts not the design.

[This message has been edited by toddshotrods (edited 01-22-2009).]

just wondering about an upgrade to the ICE engine, why doesnt anyone ever think about using the heat produced? i could see a steam engine being run side by side with an HC engine. if u had a water tank with a valve that was released when pressure built up high enough, couldnt u power extra cylinders with water heated by the engine? i dont know iv just never understood why noone actually tries to use the heat given off becuase its there, and its efficiency lost, and if u used the water it would act as a heat sink by absorbing heat. this wouldnt really come into play until the engine warmed up, but a turbo doesnt do much until higher speeds right? can anyone tell me why noone has done this?

EDIT: got rid of most of the shorthand in the post. ywmf (hehehe)
EDIT2.0: sorry if i said something previously posted. i only read pages 1, 7, and 8

[This message has been edited by Nohbdy (edited 01-22-2009).]

quote Is there anything radically different inside those controller cases that would prevent a more traditional aftermarket powertrain unit manufacturer from building them? I mean the hard parts not the design.

I don't think so.
Supposedly the symetron system uses special software and possibly special motor windings. The same is claimed for Chorus Motors Meshcon motors, though those are actually being used in the Wheeltug, a front landing gear drive pack for jet planes that could replace separate airline tugs. Basically they claim to use harmonics and special winding to boost low end torque while keeping torque up across the full RPM range. They also use the licensing model: "Pay us and we'll tell you how to build and control the motor".

[This message has been edited by JRP3 (edited 01-22-2009).]

o yeah, and for whoever it was who said that cars would need an infinite gear shifter, one exists. its called the NuVinci, http://www.fallbrooktech.com/nuvinci.asp its used in bicycles for now, but with a little modification it could b made to run a car engine.

EDIT: there are others, but this is the one that i like best. it follows the first rule of engineering, Keep It Simple

[This message has been edited by Nohbdy (edited 01-22-2009).]

quote Originally posted by Nohbdy: just wondering about an upgrade to the ICE engine, why doesnt anyone ever think about using the heat produced? i could see a steam engine being run side by side with an HC engine. if u had a water tank with a valve that was released when pressure built up high enough, couldnt u power extra cylinders with water heated by the engine? i dont know iv just never understood why noone actually tries to use the heat given off becuase its there, and its efficiency lost, and if u used the water it would act as a heat sink by absorbing heat. this wouldnt really come into play until the engine warmed up, but a turbo doesnt do much until higher speeds right? can anyone tell me why noone has done this?

Maybe because of the size and complexity of the setup necessary to do it. If you add too much weight you'd lose some of the efficiency gains.
Yeah the Nuvinci is cool, I almost used one in a bike but couldn't justify the cost.

[This message has been edited by JRP3 (edited 01-22-2009).]

infanant ratio just use a hyrauilic trans like in the lawn mowers it uses a variable pump that can go from nothing to over drive

[This message has been edited by engine man (edited 01-22-2009).]

quote Originally posted by Nohbdy: just wondering about an upgrade to the ICE engine, why doesnt anyone ever think about using the heat produced?

Good question...

The answer lies in physics. The problem is that energy always wants to go to a less organized state. The energy in the gasoline is very organized compared to the random heat generated once it's combusted. Getting that energy to do work once, (in the cylinders) is difficult and only about 20% is captured. If you take the waste heat and try to do something with it, you might only get 10% of the waste heat to do any work. There are always going to be losses.

Now 10% is better than nothing you say, but the amount of complexity and machinery to get that 10% is going to negate most of what you gained from it. You have much more success if you just try to get 1% more out of the original combustion in the first place.

However, I will agree that the gasoline engine has been very slow to evolve over the last 100 years. There have been gains, but the basic design hasn't changed much. I'm still appalled that we use rubber belts to drive the accessories externally. All our technology and that's the best we can come up with?

In case you guys haven't seen it before, here's a nice EV fiero done in a college course:
http://courses.washington.edu/me495ev/
has some good numbers and info showing their results.

as far as recouping lost heat from an ICE, BMW made an attempt at this a few years ago:
http://www.autoweek.com/app...3002/1024/LATESTNEWS
not sure what became of it, seemed like a good idea on the surface.

I like the Washington Fiero it can be up made to have more power by adding more motors but by there figures it would have a 0 to 60 time just over 4 seconds with 2 motors

What is it with automotive technological advances being associated with Italians?
Fiero = "Proud" in Italian
Apterra = Ancient Italian City
Quaranta = "Forty" in Italian

They need to start relating to american stuff... "Introducing.... The Chevy Fast... Because it means "fast" in english..."
hehe

------------------
Journal of a concept: http://southeastfieros.com >>> Build Thread >>> Parts thread (for project funding)

[This message has been edited by fieroboom (edited 01-23-2009).]

quote Originally posted by fieroboom: They need to start relating to american stuff... "Introducing.... The Chevy Fast... Because it means "fast" in english..." hehe

Might be a big hit in Italy

quote Originally posted by engine man: Ok i have another ? if you run an elcetric motor with no load on it it will use less curent or the same as if it had a high load . this is my idea for doing it know fancy electronic controler is i would hook the motor to a hydrostatic drive to drive the car like this motor cycle http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6G_YrGugug

I think hydrostatic drives have a lot of slip, which means inefficiency, which is the last thing you want in a battery powered vehicle. Also unnecessary with an electric motor that has full low end torque.

1) I can't believe you guys sold me on EVs!
2) I can't believe how much I am into and love it!
3) I can't believe it's taking so long for this technology to be universally adopted.
4) It's actually amazing how humans can get stuck on stupid, I think my biggest struggle was just getting my mind outside the walls of HC life - and I consider myself to be a faily open-minded person.

On soap box
It's really sad that society doesn't understand the mechanics of capitalism. If big business wasn't in control of this world, and society's needs were truly driving the ship, this would be a no-brainer. As it is, society is bullied into just accepting whatever kind of slop is dished out. Indentured servants...
Off soap box

I'm just all charged up and having fun with the possibilities

actualy hydrostatic trans have high efficaintcy higher than standar trans they vary the pump volume by what is called a swash plate that changes the stroke of the piston it gives it a inffanet gear ratio

[This message has been edited by engine man (edited 01-23-2009).]

the BMW design is what i was talking about. it shouldnt take much more room than a turbo in my mind, run water pipes along high heat loss areas to pick up heat and then when the pressure has built up enough, they would open a valve, the drop in pressure would convert that to steam driving an extra piston, which would fire fairly regularly after the first time. a turbo uses air flow from the exhaust to turn a turbine which in turn runs an "air compressor" for lack of a better word, which eventually gains enough pressure to drive a piston. mine would work just as well if not better, since it would have the same efficiency at 70mph as at 5, so long as the car was warmed up. as for what happened, they were putting the tech at 5+ years away. i still think that a water powered "turbo" would work perfectly well. just put a waterfilled sleeve over ur exhaust to pull heat off that, and another one under the engine. water would keep the temperatures down, (on the materials used to make the sleeve/tank) and also increase engine efficeincy. why wouldnt this help? i know that energy wants to stay unorganized, which is why HCs r so unstable, because the shorter the HC chains the more organized (kerosine verses gasoline), but it also likes to disipate, which is also a basic rule of the universe. high temperature areas spread heat to lower temperatures, so this should work right?

EDIT: can anyone explain the hydrostatic thing? the video never actually did. i gtg somewhere in 30 mins and still need to eat and shower otherwise id look it up myself. thanks

[This message has been edited by Nohbdy (edited 01-23-2009).]

I have thought about the steam engine thing off the exhaust and even came up with a boiler design to capture as much heat as you can but not restrict exhaust flow I even have a idea on how to make a steam tesla turbine work and be fast and powerfull and efficiant but to realy do it it cost $$$$ so the best thing for me to go for is electric

With regenerative braking, wouldn't there be a difference in the load on the motor (when acting as a generator) when the batteries are full or drained that would affect the balance of braking bias at the axle the motor is connected to?

I see what you are saying it would need to be some sort of progresive system

I was thinking it would need a computer-controlled, electronic proportioning valve on the hydraulic braking system. You wouldn't want to interfere with the generator or you wouldn't be able to capture the energy during braking. Or am I missing something?

I was just thinking through my dream system and realized that there would be a potentially dangerous imbalance without something to compensate for different states of charge.

[This message has been edited by toddshotrods (edited 01-23-2009).]

quote Originally posted by toddshotrods: On soap box It's really sad that society doesn't understand the mechanics of capitalism. If big business wasn't in control of this world, and society's needs were truly driving the ship, this would be a no-brainer. As it is, society is bullied into just accepting whatever kind of slop is dished out. Indentured servants... Off soap box

A big part of the problem is that too many people are afraid of change and are more comfortable with the status quo instead of trying to find a better way and pushing for something different.

thanks then the way i was thinking will work the electric motor need not to turn more than a few thousand rpm but must have high torque . from what i understand on the Hydroststic drive it is based on volume and pressure it work like this the pump has what they call a swash plate and as you increass the swash plate angle the larger the stroke of the pistons thus more volume of fluid pumed on the hydraulic motor side it has a fixed volume to make it go one turn. If you pump 2 cubic inches fluid through a 1 cubic inch motor it will turn 2 times and if you put that same 2 cubic inches of fluid through a 4 cubic inch motor it would turn 1/2 a rotation. so with a veirable volume pump you have infanant gear ratio . Oh there is less friction less gears and roatating wight and no slipage

[This message has been edited by engine man (edited 01-23-2009).]

quote Originally posted by JRP3: ...It's also possible to setup some sort of energy dump like a heating element to dissipate regen power if the controller is full, but usually a little bit of driving will give you enough room in the pack to take the regen energy...

That would work. I know it would be a rare situation that the regen would be disabled but in an emergency situation you don't need any other surprises. The emergency dump is excellent because the fewer things you have messing with the brakes the better. If the programming was right for the dump, it would be pretty much transparent to the driver.

A super capacitor would be a nice place to dump excess energy, if they ever work. An in-dash indicator could be used to let you know when a foot full of fun was on tap. Gotta keep it cleaned out in case the generator needs it, ya know?!

quote Originally posted by engine man: thanks then the way i was thinking will work the electric motor need not to turn more than a few thousand rpm but must have high torque . from what i understand on the Hydroststic drive it is based on volume and pressure it work like this the pump has what they call a swash plate and as you increass the swash plate angle the larger the stroke of the pistons thus more volume of fluid pumed on the hydraulic motor side it has a fixed volume to make it go one turn. If you pump 2 cubic inches fluid through a 1 cubic inch motor it will turn 2 times and if you put that same 2 cubic inches of fluid through a 4 cubic inch motor it would turn 1/2 a rotation. so with a veirable volume pump you have infanant gear ratio . Oh there is less friction less gears and roatating wight and no slipage

If you are getting high torque from an electric motor at low RPM's that is not a low load, it's a high load and is drawing a lot of amps which means heat. It's better to let the electric motor wind up some to allow cooling. If you are trying to move a vehicle at a certain speed the same energy will be required to move it, regardless of the gearing. Gearing is used to keep a motor in it's efficient range, and since an electric motor is so efficient over such a large range a variable speed transmission is a useless energy drain.

I ask why run any trany then it seems to be just in the way the way it sounds. the Hydrostatic drive replaces the whole transaxle no need to have a rearend

[This message has been edited by engine man (edited 01-24-2009).]

While my knowledge of hydrostatic drives is limited I'd like to see some sort of proof that they are in any way more efficient or even as efficient as a single speed rear end. I do know that pumping fluid involves friction losses. I know that hydrostatic transmissions on lawn tractors have fans on them for cooling while non-hydro drives do not. Fans mean heat, heat means inefficiency and energy loss. We're also ignoring the cost and complexity of a hydrostatic drive compared to a single speed rear end or trans axle.
Electric in-wheel motors are being tried in all wheel drive setups, the problem is that with no gear reduction at all the wheel motors have to be able to handle high amps at startup which means they have to dissipate heat, while also being water proof so they can't have open cooling, and able to withstand shock loads from the road, while still being small enough to fit into a wheel. Of course 4 wheel motors will be more expensive than a single larger motor and controlling them more complex.

The biggest problem I see with the hydrostatic drive, through my lessons learned here, is that you are creating another transfer of energy. Put in my simple, user-end, language there is always a loss when energy is transferred - that's one of the laws of this universe you can't escape. Ignoring how it got there, you have energy stored in batteries, onboard the vehicle. You transfer that energy to the electric motor, and endure a small loss. A pure EV at that points transfers the energy, through the drivetrain, one last time into forward motion, enduring its final loss (grossly oversimplified - I know) in acheiving the goal.

With the hydrostatic drive rather than putting the energy, minus those losses, to work for you you're transferring it again. According to the law, you have to encounter an additional loss when the motor turns the hydrostatic drive. So the problem is not that it won't work, it's which would be more efficient. Since you already have more losses in the system the hydrostatic drive would have to somehow produce more work than is being put into it to make up for the addtional loss encountered in turning it.

How'd I do teachers? You guys busted my bubble with this revelation in my O/T thread, but I did get it. I was trying to accomplish something similar, only I was really asking my system to work miracles. I wanted mine to syphon a tiny bit of energy from my ICE and magnify it into asphalt-rippling, pin-your-head-to-the-seat-back, acceleration! I know you're not asking for that much with the hydrostatic drive, but it's still more than the law will allow.

Ok i will ask all of you are you going to use a transmisson if so there will be a power loss just like you are saying i would be geting rid of the trany your going to use and replacing it with hydrostatic drive so power loss is about the same but with the hydrostatic drive i controll speed and load with the way you are doing it you need a controler for the motor to control speed and load

I'm debating with myself over the transmission. I have a LOT of design time in the shifter, so there is an advantage for me to keep it (the car is a marketing tool). I know that may sound crazy but the shifter was one of the key selling points, so I invested thousands of dollars worth of labor into making it really special. On the other hand, I know I can build a more efficient system if I eliminate the transmission. It's whether the gain in efficiency is worth the write off in design labor, and what the loss of a key ingredient will cost in marketing value, for me. I would also be saving a little weight...

If efficiency was my primary goal (not marketing) I would want to eliminate every loss possible, including the transmission. One gear reduction from motor to wheels would be my choice. From there I would concentrate on electronic control to maximize efficiency, and things like regenerative braking to recapture as much of the energy loss as possible.

[This message has been edited by toddshotrods (edited 01-24-2009).]

if you dont run a trany and just go direct to the wheels will it still be as fast on acceleration or will this slow the car acceleration down to much thats why i thought they where using the trany

The transmission helps the ICE get into the meat of its torque curve faster, and stay there. That's why first gear is usually so steep, to get you moving easier. Since the electric motor has full torque from the start, if the gearing is right it will be able to move the vehicle. Some of the EVs in the links I clicked on actually have the transmission pinned (locked) in one gear. They are just using the transmission to get the gear reduction they need because it's there (cheap alternative). Some of them admitted that it's inefficient, and adds extra weight, but... I would venture to guess that some might use the transmission to compensate for not having a big enough motor, or enough voltage, for the weight of the vehicle.

An extreme example of the higher ICE torque curve is an Indy or F1 car. They have to rev the snot out of the engine to get out of the pits, and if the driver misses it he stalls.

[This message has been edited by toddshotrods (edited 01-24-2009).]