So I have a few questions regarding the legality of the swap. Firstly, how will the police know that you have an illegal engine/tranny combination to begin with? It's not like the people who do a smog check look at the transmission model number, or when a police officer pulls you over, he's not going to jack up your car to see which transmission you're using. Secondly, what is the registration process like? I don't understand why you can't just have another tranny swapped without telling the DMV.
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12:19 AM
IMSA GT Member
Posts: 10628 From: California Registered: Aug 2007
that is what i like 2 know... the car my family had was hooked up to a machine. no visual inspection that i know of.
Yeah... and if the poster is talking about a smog inspection, they never ever look at your transmission. In fact, it's not uncommon for smog checkers to not know what aftermarket headers look like.
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11:55 PM
Oct 10th, 2009
IMSA GT Member
Posts: 10628 From: California Registered: Aug 2007
What I am not sure of is whether or not the smog station treats the car differently due to its swap. In other words, when you have the car inspected after the swap, I believe the car is titled as special construction. When that is inputted into the smog computer, I don't know if they will look differently at your car. Madcurl would definately know this information so hopefully he chimes in.
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12:26 AM
madcurl Member
Posts: 21401 From: In a Van down by the Kern River Registered: Jul 2003
So I have a few questions regarding the legality of the swap. Firstly, how will the police know that you have an illegal engine/tranny combination to begin with? It's not like the people who do a smog check look at the transmission model number, or when a police officer pulls you over, he's not going to jack up your car to see which transmission you're using. Secondly, what is the registration process like? I don't understand why you can't just have another tranny swapped without telling the DMV.
As for the initial referee inspection; to check for illegal modifications during which the inspector is looking for OEM parts- some from the donor and some parts from the Fiero. Prior to your inspection, the referee has a list (from Sacramento office) of the items to look for. Therefore, your local smog station doesn't perform the initial test, but the rather smog referee station. Only after certification can a local smog station perform the 2-yr smog test. If later, items are been changed-- the local smog station may not perform the test.
Orville who has both a LS V8 and two 3800SC in CA had an issue with a local smog station regarding his air intake. Although, the car was initially tested using a K&N cone filter; the smog dude wanted to fail the test because it wasn't OEM. Orville pressed forward with his arguement and won. IMHO- it's best to have the SPNC 100 and bypass the 2-yr inspection all together; who knows what will happen 10-year out.
[This message has been edited by madcurl (edited 10-10-2009).]
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02:03 PM
madcurl Member
Posts: 21401 From: In a Van down by the Kern River Registered: Jul 2003
Yeah... and if the poster is talking about a smog inspection, they never ever look at your transmission. In fact, it's not uncommon for smog checkers to not know what aftermarket headers look like.
Trust me; they're looking. That is why WFC is the only Fiero company that has took the time to get the C.A.R.B approved headers for the 3800. As for the transmission; it's going to be very hard for a referee over looking it since Sacramento sends the smog rep items to look for from a production car prior to your appointment.
On the other hand; I agree that a local smog station guy may not know what's are OEM parts- manual or otherwise and therfore will pass the car on through, but that's only after you've swapped the manual back into the Fiero after the inital smog referee inspection.
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02:19 PM
RaDeuX Member
Posts: 24 From: Los Gatos, CA, USA Registered: Sep 2009
Meaning that after the initial inspection, I can put whatever transmission I want?
EDIT: What is this initial inspection? I never got it when I bought my used car...
The initial inspection is performed for all engine swap cars in CA that are produced after 1973 or something (it might be newer now?). The sticker isn't issued for OEM cars like the original 2.8 or Duke. If your thinking about a 3800SC or anything other than stock motor in a Fiero... you'll need to see a referee. That said, some folks may have swapped out the modified or 3800SC prior to smog inspection and then put the motor back into the car (that's illegal). IMO it's best to do it right the first time and thus avoiding law enforcement everytime you look over your shoulders.
It's a good thing I live 2 miles away from a DMV. Now the problem is, how hard is it to qualify a Fiero for an SBCNS? And would it be before or after the modification?
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06:02 PM
madcurl Member
Posts: 21401 From: In a Van down by the Kern River Registered: Jul 2003
It's a good thing I live 2 miles away from a DMV. Now the problem is, how hard is it to qualify a Fiero for an SBCNS? And would it be before or after the modification?
In my case and a few others they waited until the car was near completion for a inspection. As for the other certification SB-100 (what ever the number is) the last I heard; your Fiero needs to not look like a Fiero, but rather kit car like. That's the certification that exempts the Fiero for life (no smog every two years). It's additional steps when I had my car passed several years ago. Mine included a visit to the local CHP. They checked the Fiero for stolen engine/trans parts.
As for the location; you need to check your area for the nearest smog referee. Usually, the smog stations are located at local college. In the Bay Area it's Daly City's Sky line Community College
and in Bakersfield, CA it's Bakersfield Community College. The station WCF uses is located in Lancaster, CA. Give them a call at 1800 622 7733 about the details.
...meaning that the Fiero doesn't have to be present for the inspection? I don't have any garage space to keep the Fiero "near-completion", so it'd have to be complete or not complete at all. At least until I get my own place in a few years. Does the SBCNS allow me to put non-CARB legal parts in a Fiero?
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09:29 PM
Oct 11th, 2009
Orville Member
Posts: 263 From: Bakersfield, Ca USA Registered: Dec 2000
Briefly, if you swap a non-stock engine into a Fiero the swap the swap must be approved at a CARB referee station. If it isn't, the techs at a smog only station, who are more knowledgeable about CARB requirements than the guys at a regular smog station, will almost certainly spot the non-approved swap and refuse to pass your vehicle.
To pass the CARB test as a non SPCNS vehicle the swap must be stock from the donor vehicle, with all smog gear present and working and with no check engine light displayed. Also, the engine must be mated to the stock donor transaxle.
To avoid these requirements, you can apply at the DMV for a SPCNS (specially constructed vehicle) registration of which the are 500 available per year. Actually, more than 500 but only the first 500 avoid the CARB requirements and smog tests.
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07:56 PM
RaDeuX Member
Posts: 24 From: Los Gatos, CA, USA Registered: Sep 2009
Urgh, this is confusing as feck. So basically, as long as I get a stock GM3800, I'll be able to swap it with any manual transmission, right? (e.g. F40, Getrag282, etc).
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08:33 PM
Khw Member
Posts: 11139 From: South Weber, UT. U.S.A. Registered: Jun 2008
Urgh, this is confusing as feck. So basically, as long as I get a stock GM3800, I'll be able to swap it with any manual transmission, right? (e.g. F40, Getrag282, etc).
No. My understanding is that you must use the stock transaxle the engine is mated to. So the engine you swap in must have a stick transaxle if you want a stick. I don't know if the 3800 ever came mounted to a stick transaxle, I have only ever heard of it with a automatic. That being said, if you are lucky enough to get one of the 500 a year SPCNS registrations then you could mount it to a stick regardless of if it came with one or not. Good luck getting a SPCNS registration though, your in a state with about 37 million in population and only 500 of those to go around each year.
[This message has been edited by Khw (edited 10-11-2009).]
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09:00 PM
Oct 12th, 2009
RaDeuX Member
Posts: 24 From: Los Gatos, CA, USA Registered: Sep 2009
Okay, I'm starting to get it now. I'll probably be better off with a 5-speed transmission then, wouldn't I? IIRC, from '86 and above, the V6 versions all had 5spd transmissions? So could I swap a GM3800 mated to the stock transmission of the Fiero then?
EDIT: Alright, I've been misinterpreting the information here. So I need a STOCK engine AND a stick transaxle that came with that stock engine. What swap combination could I possibly achieve with that?
I also contacted West Coast Fiero, and this is what they said:
quote
Ye you can use your trans
Chris
RaDeuX wrote: Meaning that I can use ANY manual transmission as long as the American engine came with a manual transmission, correct?
On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 09:02:07 -0700, chris west <sales@westcoastfiero.com> wrote:
You can swap any American engine into the fiero as long as the donor engine came with a stick
[This message has been edited by RaDeuX (edited 10-12-2009).]
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03:39 AM
Khw Member
Posts: 11139 From: South Weber, UT. U.S.A. Registered: Jun 2008
Right. If you can find a 3800 that came mated to a stick, stock, then you can use it. I don't know if there was such a animal though. Maybe someone else on here does?
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09:10 AM
jscott1 Member
Posts: 21676 From: Houston, TX , USA Registered: Dec 2001
Okay, I'm starting to get it now. I'll probably be better off with a 5-speed transmission then, wouldn't I? IIRC, from '86 and above, the V6 versions all had 5spd transmissions? So could I swap a GM3800 mated to the stock transmission of the Fiero then?
EDIT: Alright, I've been misinterpreting the information here. So I need a STOCK engine AND a stick transaxle that came with that stock engine. What swap combination could I possibly achieve with that?
I also contacted West Coast Fiero, and this is what they said:
Not a 3800SC. If you want to run a manual trans, go with something like a 3.4TDC. Chris at WCF had one of this in his car for a long time so he has good experience with them too. And he can add a turbo to get the HP up there if your pockets are deep enough.
There is one 3800SC with a manual in CA that I know of. It is currently owned by Greg Barron in the bay area. Nobody knows how that car got the sticker.
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01:06 PM
Songman Member
Posts: 12496 From: Nashville, TN Registered: Aug 2000
Probably before the manual went in. You have two years between inspections. If you are willing to swap the trans out every couple of years you can do it.
Or if you change it enough to get a Specialty Constructed Vehicle number then you can do just about anything you want because you don't have to get it inspected again after it passes the first time.
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01:12 PM
RaDeuX Member
Posts: 24 From: Los Gatos, CA, USA Registered: Sep 2009
...wow. The WCF guy told me that I could use any manual transmission. Everyone is saying different things. I'm getting really confused now.
You're confused because you refuse to listen to what WCF initially stated to you.
quote
Originally posted by RaDeuX:
I also contacted West Coast Fiero, and this is what they said:
quote
On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 09:02:07 -0700, chris west <sales@westcoastfiero.com> wrote:
You can swap any American engine into the fiero as long as the donor engine came with a stick
Since everybody here has already stated that; there isn't a 3800SC production car using a stick--- then the only conclusion is; 3800SC with a automatic for CA. Otherwise, using any other combination will not pass inspection here in CA. You can call the 800 number posted in this thread and they will tell you the same thing.
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03:28 PM
RaDeuX Member
Posts: 24 From: Los Gatos, CA, USA Registered: Sep 2009
Right. I guess my best bet is to either go for a 3.4 TDC or a 3800 and add a turbo system on it. I really prefer the 3800 for the fact that it has a reputation of being extremely reliable. My friend is in an autotech class and he's looking to rebuild an engine, so we're planning on putting our money together to pick out a 3800 Series II motor from a local pick-n-pull on either thursday or friday. It'll be hell since it started raining last night.
By the way, can I get a 3800 Series II motor from an automatic, despite the fact that the L36 has been in manual transmission cars? Or does it ABSOLUTELY have to be from a stickshift donor car? I know it seems like I'm repeating myself over and over, but I just really want to make sure before I blow my money on an engine.
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05:53 PM
Orville Member
Posts: 263 From: Bakersfield, Ca USA Registered: Dec 2000
This is a copy of a post I made a while back - might be lost in the archives:
I've done and registered two fairly recent engine swaps in California, so I know the drill. The process goes like this: You take your vehicle to the appointment at the CARB smog station. The first thing the tech does is enter the vehicle's I.D. into a database record of CARB smog checks. If he finds a match, he'll know that you've been tested at another station and why the car failed. If there is no match, he'll check your swap and then call the Sacramento office of the Bureau of Automotive Repair. The "engineers" there will tell him whether to pass the swap or, more likely, tell him why to fail it. The referee, of course, will do as he's instructed.
What this means is that there is no point in venue shopping in the hope of finding a more compliant referee. The CARB smog stations, as are all Ca smog stations, are monitored by the BAR. Any referee that wants to stay employed will follow the rules.
It also means that you can save yourself time, expense, and problems by calling the BAR's Sacramento office and asking about the considerations for your proposed swap. Determine exactly what you want to do. When you have all your facts organized call this number: 661 833-6304. You will be speaking with the "engineers" at the Bureau of Automotive Repair. They are the people who will decide if your swap will pass the CARB smog test and be registered. If you call them, please let us know what what you find out.
Also before you call erase the word "why" from your vocabulary. Hearing the word throws them into fits of apoplectic rage.
Orville
[This message has been edited by Orville (edited 10-13-2009).]
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06:11 PM
madcurl Member
Posts: 21401 From: In a Van down by the Kern River Registered: Jul 2003
Ah, that makes much more sense now. I guess I should've read up on the legalities of CA engine swaps beforehand. But yes, sometime soon I will end up calling them once I get all my facts and questions gathered and neatly organized. Thank you for being patient with me gentlemen.
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06:46 PM
PFF
System Bot
Songman Member
Posts: 12496 From: Nashville, TN Registered: Aug 2000
They don't match numbers on engines and trannys. They don't have to come from the same car. As long as whatever engine you choose was actually available with a manual transmission, you can use it with a manual.
But as Orville says, get all the facts up front about the things from the donor you will have to have in place. One of the big hassles for the Fiero is that they require the factory air cleaner box. Plan it taht way from the start and save yourself some headaches.
[This message has been edited by Songman (edited 10-13-2009).]
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06:51 PM
Oct 14th, 2009
madcurl Member
Posts: 21401 From: In a Van down by the Kern River Registered: Jul 2003
WCF's 5.3 passes with flying colors; sticker on left strut tower.
passes with a modified intake. I know where to take my N* too for passing. The smog reps up north wanted me to perform tricks and flips to pass the N*.
A alternative to a 3800SC.
[This message has been edited by madcurl (edited 10-14-2009).]
Eep. So glad I don't live in CA. Here in Delaware it was, "Sir, pull up. Pop the hood. *trunk pops* ....What the? ..Alright, let me check for emission components.. ...Where's the smaug pump? The catalytic converter? *calls over another guy, whispering until finally* ..I don't know, just pass him." None of them had a CLUE as to what my car was.. lol. I'll take my DE inspection any day. =D
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02:17 AM
RaDeuX Member
Posts: 24 From: Los Gatos, CA, USA Registered: Sep 2009
That 5.3L V8 is an alternative that's well worth taking into consideration. I was also thinking about an LS1 due to its recognition for being an extremely reliable engine. I also heard that you can't rebuild Northstar V8s... Is that true? Also, approximately how much does a WCF V8 cost?
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08:59 PM
Songman Member
Posts: 12496 From: Nashville, TN Registered: Aug 2000
The owner informed me that the 5.3 had only 50-miles on it. He purchased the motor from a reputable company, so I doubt likely he'll ever need any engine repairs.
OK seriously how ARE you affording all of these projects? Are you looking to adopt any kids? Might I suggest a middle aged, balding, overweight kid in Houston to adopt?
