I wanted to see what people's thought's are on this. I saw the E-rod GM engine feature at the SEMA show on TV. This is apparently a smog legal, CA CARB approved LS# and in the future LS7 engine that is new, and from GM. It is specifically being offered for Hot-Rods and cars that are older (like ours) and need to pass new emission requirements.

Besides being alot due to the fact it's a new engine, what are the problems? This is a specific CARB legal engine and serious consideration was used for CA car owners. Would this be a go in a Fiero? Or would the whole tranny thing still be a problem?

It is awesome if this is true and it really works to be legal on it's own and the tranny is allowed to vary from car to car. It has EVERYTHING with the engine to be smog complient. Even the freakin gas pedal is included.

http://www.gmperformancepar...EMA_|_Engine_|_e-rod

Can this be the Holy Grail I have waited for? Only because I live in CA.

[This message has been edited by blkpearl (edited 01-03-2010).]

Believe me, if this goes through (since the "Buy Now" button doesn't work....yes I tried), I will be doing this very soon. The only issue is finding a tranny to hold up to 430hp safely.

I have been looking into it more. It looks like GM is working with CARB to have a base of trannys that will be automatically approved. And they will include 6 speeds. Cost is 8K so far, really not bad for a brand new engine that runs perfectly.

I found this just now:
The list price for the LS3 E-ROD package is $9,375.

Here is what is included in the standard LS3 E-ROD kit:

6.2-liter LS3 crate engine, rated at 430 horsepower and 424 lb.-ft. of torque
GMPP LS3 engine wiring harness
GMPP engine control module
Exhaust manifolds
Catalytic converters
Oxygen sensors and sensor bosses
Fuel tank evaporative emissions canister
Mass airflow sensor and sensor boss
Accelerator pedal (for use with the LS3’s electronic throttle)
Air filter
Instruction manual

Instruction manual???? This is the first crate engine I have seen that wants to help you

[This message has been edited by IMSA GT (edited 01-04-2010).]

The exact same deal at Jegs for 8K. It looks like testing for a 6 speed and approval from CARB is going on as we speak. Cannot find what 6 speed that is. Hopefully the F40 trans will be approved because of it's prevalence right now with GM.


It is cool to see GM doing something about these smog laws and keeping older classic cars on the road.

I guess the big question is what they defines as "older cars"

anything 1973 or older in CA can have any engine you want and never have to pass any smog.

So I am guessing this is for cars 74 and up to 19??

What restrictions are they putting on this engine in these cars and do they have to pass any sort of smog inspection at all? If so what conditions are there.

A lot of questions to ask before we got too excited I think.

Honestly the CARB has had their heads up their asses for so long it surprises me they would even consider something like this.

No amount of explaining would convince them to allow me to put a series II 3800 SC in my T-Top GT with a 5 speed, no matter how much less pollution it made than the stock 2.8 v6 on a great day, forget the improvement in fuel efficiencey.

If they were REALLY interested in cleaning up the air in this state they would allow ALL older cars to put in ANY engine that has provable lower emissions and improved fuel economy. End of story

[This message has been edited by FieroMonkey (edited 01-04-2010).]

I think it would be a genius move to produce a 50 state smog legal turn key crate engine/system.
But I do understand the HUGE hurdles they would need to overcome. Different cars cant all use the same exhaust system/manifolds/cats. They cant all use the same intake system. They cant use the same gauges. Do they even list trannies for the engine? So if they certify a series of combinations so the buyer can pic what would work best, I think they would be a VERY practical way to "clean" the environment.
I think GM would be in a better position to sell merchandise if they offered all of there existing engines as stand alone turn key drive trains so the public can drop out the "dirty" engine and replace it with a cleaner engine with out building a "race car" Just offer an alternative to junking the car.
BUT this is a step in the right direction.

------------------

This is already in the works and a done deal, so it is going to be available.


It's going through because of GM's money and influence behind it. When you purchase the kit I believe you will get the CARB cert with it. That's what is waiting for final approval right now. It's just tweaking the set-up for them to put the carb seal of approval. The whole kit comes with headers two cat's, everything they want to be approved.

So I realized it just has to be installed properly WITH EVERYTHING that is bought in the kit. This will work, it's just the tranny that is the question. What 6 speed are they going to approve, their going to approve something with a manual, GMMP has already confirmed it.

If you spend some time online looking this up, you will see what I am writing.

If they send the CARB approved sticker, and BAR sticker with this kit we will be golden anyway you slice it. Just go to smog and if they say what's the deal you have the stickers visible.

This a very cool package. I work at the GM Tech Center in Warren MI. where this car was built. It was cool watching and working on this project. Last year at SEMA, CARB officials approached GM about doing something smog legal. They were tired of fighting with "hot rodders" and wanted to show them that they could install emissions legal engine pakages for their vehicles. GM Performance group spent a lot of working on this with calibrations and camming to come up with a package that would please everyone. I am not sure how well it would package in our fieros, I was already asking them about this, but who knows. I also heard rumors from SEMA about a CARB crackdown on "non legal" cars and heard that the govt. is already cracking down on gray market cars like the Nissan skyline. Rumor has it that there have been already some confiscations around the country.

So GM stands alone as the only auto maker offering this and having it approved legally?

Or will this be available to Ford as well. If not I find it interesting the government is pushing it through for the biggest bailout auto maker only....

Not that I am not a fan of the idea. it is about friggin time, just wondering that's all

This started over a year ago before any of us at GM thought that there was ever going to be a bankruptcy. It is nice that Califonia is even thinking of trying to get the OEM's to come out with 50 state emission legal engine packages. GM did this in the early 90's with the ZZ3 crate motor. It was called the 350 H.O. and it was for 82-87 305 carbed F-bodies and it included the twin converter exhaust, prom, emission decal and all of the necessary pieces to do a 49 state legal emission conversion. It made 308 hp with exhaust manifolds and stock looking. Stock these cars were 160-190 hp with the 305's. I think Hot Rod and Chevy High Performance had several articles on the conversion. They were going to do a G-body and possibly a B-body kit as well but each kit was approx. $4400 and I heard they only sold around 20 kits. The total of all the parts and the ZZ3 engine was more than the kit price, they wanted to show the govt. that it was possible to have emission compliance and performance contrary to popular belief back then. I built my own version of this package into my '86 grand prix. Alot of the parts between the F-bodies and the G-bodies are very similiar. Thats the nice thing about GM is that so many of their parts are interchangeable between so many car lines.

It would be great if other automakers would follow suit.

I would love a choice of an American, German, or Japanese engine in a Fiero. Preferably in an approved FWD package as well..

430hp! I need to start saving my money! CA LEGAL!!!!!!!!

I can't wait.

The CA Fiero community is salivating at the idea of the E-rod engine. V8 Archie has installed all sorts of LS engines even the new LS7 into a Fiero so we know it can be done. It looks like this EROD package could be the answer we CA owners have waited for to have a CARB legal V8. What we need to know is the approval process for manuals. Is it necessary from GMPP and CARB to have a certain manual in this package. Or is it just that the VSS needs to read correctly (current requirement)? Because we could already use the "newer" F40 6 speed from Pontiac G6 platform. Or is GM going to come out with an even stronger transax manual because of the 306 hp engine now being produced. And would the 4T65E-HD trannsmission work
(mid nineties GM cars with Buick 3800 SC engine like Grand Prix GTP)
We really like the possibility here as these cars will fly with this engine package, and be CA legal too. Thankyou GMPP for making this happen from many different "hardcore" GM subcommunities.


I posted this directly to a GM engineer who worked on this project. Will post result.

Folks:

Not really sure what all the excitement is about (except that it ia an LS3). And that exhaust/cat system shown in the pics is not gonna fit in a Fiero unless CARB lets you modify it a lot.

West Coast Fiero just finished an LS4 / 4T65E-HD swap that passed CARB on the first try.

Regards,

David

[This message has been edited by MountainHiBlue87GT (edited 01-06-2010).]

quote Originally posted by MountainHiBlue87GT: Folks: Not really sure what all the excitement is about (except that it ia an LS3). And that exhaust/cat system shown in the pics is not gonna fit in a Fiero unless CARB lets you modify it a lot. West Coast Fiero just finished an LS4 / 4T65E-HD swap that passed CARB on the first try. Regards, David

I also have done a few CA legal engine swaps. And I have an LS4 in my 88GT that I have no fear, will pass smog cert. For me, the E-Rod is a Turn Key system that has no anti theft, no traction control, no HVAC system, no air bag system and no dedicated gauges to deal with. It is a direct bolt in. The electronics of a swap are a huge hurdle for a properly running modern drive train swap. So this is more than just a $10,000 crate motor, we could just go to the parts counter and order the "electronics" or CARB aproved components to put it on an existing engine.

"The approval process is going to be easy for the consumer. Basically take your instructions to the stations and they will make sure everything is connected, test you and go".


This was the first response. Reason why this is exciting is because of the Cert that comes with it. And it's plug and play. Plus it looks like this will be allowed with a manual. I do not know of any CA V8 cars that have Newer V8's ( LS series) that are legal. If any then let me know.


Otherwise I will go after this and see about using an F40 transmission.

Plus just think of the aftermarket available.

Cat's do not have to be put on exactly like the 55 Chevy. They can rotate some just as long as they are on. I have seen shots of what the package and the two cats are seperate along with all the evap stuff.

quote Originally posted by blkpearl: "The approval process is going to be easy for the consumer. Basically take your instructions to the stations and they will make sure everything is connected, test you and go". This was the first response. Reason why this is exciting is because of the Cert that comes with it. And it's plug and play. Plus it looks like this will be allowed with a manual. I do not know of any CA V8 cars that have Newer V8's ( LS series) that are legal. If any then let me know. Otherwise I will go after this and see about using an F40 transmission. Plus just think of the aftermarket available. Cat's do not have to be put on exactly like the 55 Chevy. They can rotate some just as long as they are on. I have seen shots of what the package and the two cats are seperate along with all the evap stuff.

Can you post some pics or a link?

Rick:

You may be right about the exhaust, but if the Refs view the whole thing from GM as a package, they might not pass it because the EO number is for the entire thing as an assembly. Or, are you assuming that no Ref will be required because of the EO? Dunno, but I would find a Referee and ask him how he would view the necesary changes to fit a Fiero. At least before you plunk down $10,000 for starters..... Has any body looked up the EO? I have not been able to find the EO, but I did find this:
http://www.bangshift.com/bl...ement-from-SEMA.html listen closely to what the GM guy is saying about midway... I am not sure that I heard what we want to hear.. I did hear Specially Constructed Vehicles &...? project cars.

But, I did find: http://www.bangshift.com/bl...gal-for-Any-Car.html which says in part: "The other three E-Rod engine packages will be released starting within weeks, and include a 315 horsepower 5.3 LS engine, a 505 horsepower LS7 engine, and a 550 horsepower LS8. Each of these crate engine packages will include .... and will meet all applicable emmission standards, making them CARB legal for installation in any pre-OBD2 vehicle (that means '95 and earlier)."

According to the brochure, http://www.gmperformancepar...m/E-ROD-Brochure.pdf each side has an exhaust with two cats per side. If you have to twist the exhaust around a lot, it may be fun to find a place for four cats. Then there is the tranmission question...the LS3 will not have the LS4 transmission bolt pattern so an adapter will be needed.

My read is that this will still be much more expensive than a low mileage LS4 at 315 horsepower that will also have a 4T65E-HD attached to it for $3500 or less? The LS4 is not a complicated install, but it is a tight fit in a few places as will be the LS3. Put another way, the Bar Refs will give you exhaust routing leeway in an LS4 install with a single factory cat (no after market stuff), where the Ref and his supervisor issue the certificate, but they might not grant any slack for you to modify the cat locations on a brand new EO, as you will have to make major changes to the exhaust routing of the approved package. Hence, a trip to the Ref I think, but...who knows? As an aside, the Refs did not require a muffler on WCF's LS4 install.

Minimum install seems to be an LS3 trans adapter to a ?? transmission, probably whacking your trunk to fit four cats, figuring out a new cat back exhaust, and the usual other LS4 type install work (harness splicing, clearing the passenger side deck hinge, installing the drive by wire pedal, etc.) Additionally, the E-Rod engine requires a front-end accessory drive system that is suitable to the vehicle.

This thing might be plug & play in a '55 Chevy, but not in a Fiero.

Who want's to be the guinea pig?

I might be #2?? Then again, probably not.

Regards,

David

[This message has been edited by MountainHiBlue87GT (edited 01-07-2010).]

I think *part* of GM's motivation is the California kit-car (specialty constructed vehicles) amnesty program. People have a year (I think) to bring the cars into compliance (that aren't using a real serialized/titled pre-73 chassis). I have a buddy with a 427 replica he built in 2002 and he's worried he falls into that.

It also deals with the pre 86 cars that got an exemption when they started testing back then (if you had modified the car before that, they exempted you from compliance). It does sound like the 500 car per year exemption will stay but it also says they will pull some of them too.

This engine will allow many people to drop in a compliant engine and keep the car on the road. Obviously their use of a 57 Chevy is to market to the broader customer, but that engine will certainly allow some cars to have some HP and be legal.

It's a brilliant move by GM. Now if they would do this for a transverse engine it would be sweet! Maybe a 2.0L Ecotec Turbo.........

http://blogs.carcraft.com/6...-vehicles/index.html

I wonder if the pre-cats are needed for older cars that didn't used them.

[This message has been edited by TK (edited 01-07-2010).]

Just read the post above and the link in it:

and note:

"Under a second option, SCV owners can pay all back taxes and penalties and then choose to install one of several OEM engines and related powertrain components (including specifications for the construction of a fuel tank and delivery system) that are intended to meet California emissions compliance requirements. GM is currently readying an engine package for this purpose. "In fact, by using one of these engines, it is anticipated that owners of amnesty vehicles will be able to exchange their existing engines for a powertrain that represents the latest in GM's emissions and performance-related technologies," commented SEMA Technical Consultant, Jim McFarland. However, McFarland indicated that because certain variables are involved when configuring any engine or powertrain package for emissions purposes, some measure of compliance risk is involved when such components are installed in a range of vehicle types and conditions"

That last sentence probabaly means FIERO or some other vehicles.

I dunno...but read the whole blog in the link mentioned in the previous post.

[This message has been edited by MountainHiBlue87GT (edited 01-07-2010).]

I guess it could.

There was another article that talked about reviewing the SCV designations and some engine swap approvals. I would think the only Fieros at risk would be the very few engine swaps on manual transmissions (3800SC, V8's, etc.) and the even fewer SCV certifications (less likely unless they decide the changes weren't substantial enough to justify it.)

I don't see where DOHCs on manuals and 3800SC on autos would be at *any* risk other than maybe some missing equipment that escaped the inspections. I doubt that is even much of an issue.

[This message has been edited by TK (edited 01-07-2010).]