quote Originally posted by Sharkman: I have tried changing switch 1 too on but no luck. I think I need some more help here. Could the problem be that the ground is from another location in the car. Both for the VSS and the Tach? Here are the switch options: Switch#-----OFF------------------------------------------------------------- ON 1--------------SIGNAL GENERATOR SPEED INPUT-------------ECM/PCM SPEED INPUT 2--------------HIGH SENSITIVITY-----------------------------------------LOW SENSITIVITY 3--------------OUT3/4/5 SET FOR LOW SPEED IN---------------OUT 3/4/5 SET FOR HIGH SPEED IN 4--------------SLOWER OUTPUT-----------------------------------------FASTER OUTPUT INPUT / OUTPUT OPTIONS (OC = open collector, closes to ground) SWITCH # 3-------SIGNAL IN------OUT1----------OUT2---------OUT3---------OUT4-----------OUT5 ON--------------------64k - 256k-------128k AC-----128k OC-----8000 AC-----4000 OC-------2000 OC OFF------------------4k - 16k-----------8000 AC-----8000 OC-----4000 AC-----4000 OC-------2000 OC

The ground should not matter as long as it is a good one - double check and make sure the gauge one is good. Assuming the speedo is feed from the tranny (not the ECM), switch 1 should be off. Switch 3 should be off as the stock VSS signal is 4000 ppm. The only 2 I am not sure about are switches 2&4 - I would think switch 2 needs to be off since the original VSS signal is weak when compare to more modern cars.

About all I could suggest is to try the different combinations with the 2 switches (2 off, 4 on and off - 2 on, 4 on and off).

You should also be using output4 4000 OC.

...of course, there is a chance that the gauge package has a problem as well...but there is the chance I could be off my rocker on all the switch settings as well.

Thanks Mickey Moose

I will try again and check if the ground is week. The SGI-5 indicates that I dont have a signal in soo I have to check the wire as well.

The tach problem could be the tach filter I think. Will get one from Fierostore and check.

The temp gauge problem could also be the wire?

quote Originally posted by Sharkman: The temp gauge problem could also be the wire?

For the temperature gauge make sure you are connected to the proper wire. Fieros have a separate wire for the gauge and the light. You need the wire for the gauge and disregard the wire for the light, as the Firebird gauge itself will turn on the "Check gauges" light when the temp gets too high.

Thanks Jscott. Will check if I got the right wire.

Jscott:

I am posting a quote from you here RE: harness pricing. Thanks for the 2005 bump...there should be new developments soon on the Firebird Dash as the plug and play harness is nearly ready.

The Prototype harness has just completed bench testing, (actually kitchen table testing)
Everything checks out okay...

Pricing and availability....

I can build the harness any way you want. An easy way to think of it though is that $299 is my price that includes everything you need. This price includes the harness, all the connectors, a Firebird Guage Cluster, and a Firebird Headlight switch with a modified Firebird Dimmer switch, and Trunk popper switch, all tested and guaranteed to work. HVAC is not included yet as I'm still working on some ideas. For now you can use the Fiero controls with a modified bezel.

I have decided not to chare core charges (The harness is $299 everything included) but if you already have any of the Firebird parts you can get a credit or sell your Fiero parts back to me, as you won't need them after the swap. (Prices subject to change):


Firebird Gauges (93-96) subtract $20
Firebird 34 pin connector (93-98) - I will buy for $15
Firebird Headlight switch (93-2002) - subtract $10
Firebird Trunk popper (93-2002) - You get a credit or I will buy for $5 each

Firebird Dimmer switch (82-92) I will buy for $5 each
Firebird Headlight switch (82-92) - I will buy for $5 each

Fiero Gauges (84-88) I will buy for $15 each
Fiero Headlight switch (84-88) - I will buy for $5 each
Fiero Dimmer Switch (84-88) I will buy for $5 each
Fiero Trunk popper (84-88) - I will buy for $5 each
Fiero Defogger switch (84-88) - I will buy for $5 each

Let me know of any interest????

- Jonathan

Are these prices current?

THANK YOU for producing these for the community!!!


John

Thanks for the interest....

Actually the price had gone up on the harnesses...but for the next person who orders one, I will honor the price of $299 plus options as described earlier.

I need to build another one for myself, and it's easier to build two at a time than separately. I've got all the parts to build the HVAC panel, just haven't had the time to do it yet.


Here's a shot of the last harness I built:



PM me if interested.

[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 07-09-2007).]

It will be a bit of time for me before I can committ.

GREAT product ( you aer on your way to being the next Rodney) !

It would be easier for me to purchase jut the wiring components as I have all of the other items........

Keep up the excelent work for us Fiero nutzz as no one else in the auto aftermarket will.

Kudos to you ALL who do so!!!

John

quote Originally posted by 1986GTV8: It would be easier for me to purchase jut the wiring components as I have all of the other items........ Keep up the excelent work for us Fiero nutzz as no one else in the auto aftermarket will. Kudos to you ALL who do so!!! John

Thanks, I'm honored to be mentioned in the same sentence with the great Rodney.

If you already have parts I offer a trade in...but I prefer to sell an integrated package so that everything can be tested together. That's the only way I can guarantee that it will all work. Or you can send your parts to me and I will build from them for a discounted price.

There are too many variables to control if I try to mate to random clusters. GM must have made 2 dozen versions of the Firebird cluster with you consider all the available options, and the overseas models.

[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 07-10-2007).]

Thanks for the details. I did not know that there so many versions.

It all makes sense now.

It will probably be close the the year end for me to committ as I am the only one who can work in the family.

It is a slow road to perfection (if I can acheive that).

John

quote Originally posted by 1986GTV8: Thanks for the details. I did not know that there so many versions. John

Yeah some clusters have a light for traction control, some have a C.A.G.S light, (computer assisted gear selection), low oil, low coolant, and a dozen other things. It would be annoying to plug in your cluster and have an idiot light on that you can't turn off.

Interest in the plug and play harnesses is heating up again, so I thought it might be interesting to see one get built up on this thread.

I have a customer that is doing a 94 Camaro gauge swap and he has contracted me to finish it for him. The Camaro is very similar to the Firebird, but not exact. So I will have to create a new drawing for this one.



There are two challenges with doing a plug and play solution on the Fiero. One is that the Fiero electronics are different from modern cars.

In the Fiero the speedometer provides a very useful function of buffering the analog signal from the vehicle speed sensor then sending the square wave 4000 pulse per mile signal to the speedometer, and the signal to the ECM and cruise after it goes through a divide by two circuit.



So if you throw away your Fiero cluster then try to hook up a modern gauge cluster it won't work. You need a speed buffer.

The second problem is that the Fiero speedometer does not use a real connector on it. It just has the connector molded into the back of the cluster with the flexible conductor on it. In order to be plug and play I need to recreate that somehow.

To solve both problems, I have to sacrifice a Fiero Cluster for every harness that I make. I asked for clusters to buy in the mall, and the response exceeded my expectations.



Only the GT cluster has the speed buffer that I need with the 4000 ppm



then disassemble it



This is what I need from the whole cluster:



This is what's left over:

[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 07-13-2007).]

Still have problems with the tach. I changed the Tach filter but still the tach goes like a wiper from time to time.
Checked the setings on the Dakota digital modul and its right. Any ideés?

When I changed the sparkplugs today I checked the timing and found out that the security light is on when I short the diagnostic A - B
and the service engine soon is flashing like it should.

Still havent had the time to check for the temp gauge fault and the speed fault.
Also have the lights Low Track and TCS off lights always on? Don´t know why yet. one of the should be AJAR but that cant be right.

JScott I'll try to find a buffer circuit for you so you don't have to kill a GT cluster every time. Instead you can kill the 85MPH ones that no one wants anyway for the connectors. Just need to know how many connections are in the buffer you have? 4, 5, or 6?

[This message has been edited by DIY_Stu (edited 07-17-2007).]

quote Originally posted by DIY_Stu: JScott I'll try to find a buffer circuit for you so you don't have to kill a GT cluster every time. Instead you can kill the 85MPH ones that no one wants anyway for the connectors. Just need to know how many connections are in the buffer you have? 4, 5, or 6?

I have a lot of the busted up 85 mph clusters to act as cores, if I had buffer circuits, I could save the GT clusters for more noble purposes... I'm not sure I understand the 4,5 or 6 question. I'm using the circuit board pictured earlier.



A - not used
B - not used

C - not used
D - not used
E - not used
F - not used

G - not used
H - not used
J - not used

K - not used
L - not used
M - 4000 pulse per mile buffered VSS (88 only)

N - 4000 pulse per mile buffered VSS (86-87) ?? per Gary W
P - black/white - ground
R - puple/white - from the VSS (low)
S - Yellow - from the VSS (high)

T - yellow/black - Ignition power to cluster
U - Dark green/white - 2000 pulse per mile Vehicle speed sensor signal to ECM and Cruise

I hear that many cars from that era had a standalone buffer that you can find in the junkyards for cheap. If anyone has a source for those I would appreciate it. I don't have the time or the expertise to search the yards and find them.

I have one of those buffers. it's quite full inside. a lot less electronics to the fiero buffer than the stand alone. I'll see if I can find it. IIRC Gmparts direct lists that buffer at almose $200 each.

quote Originally posted by Sharkman: Still have problems with the tach. I changed the Tach filter but still the tach goes like a wiper from time to time. Checked the setings on the Dakota digital modul and its right. Any ideés? When I changed the sparkplugs today I checked the timing and found out that the security light is on when I short the diagnostic A - B and the service engine soon is flashing like it should. Still havent had the time to check for the temp gauge fault and the speed fault. Also have the lights Low Track and TCS off lights always on? Don´t know why yet. one of the should be AJAR but that cant be right.

The tach signal doesn't go throught the SGI so I don't think it has anything to do with a funny tach signal. I don't have an explanation for that. Was it working normally before?

How is your security light wired? There is nothing on the Fiero that connects to the security. I have mine wired to the dealer installed alarm.

I wired my "low trac" to the Ajar light, it should work normally. Was it working normally before?

The "TCS OFF" at A7 needs to be grounded to turn off.

Let me know how it works out.

Thanks Jscott.
I will work with the dash this weekend. Right now I am working on the front suspension.

------------------
Regards SHARKMAN
Europe # 1 choptop

quote Originally posted by DIY_Stu: JScott I'll try to find a buffer circuit for you so you don't have to kill a GT cluster every time. Instead you can kill the 85MPH ones that no one wants anyway for the connectors. Just need to know how many connections are in the buffer you have? 4, 5, or 6?

you can get a buffer circuit out of the 3rd gen Firebirds - it's a yellow box that is piggy back on the ECM. I have one laying around here that I was going to use (actually did try), but the buffer is not needed with the 4.9 (nor is the converter circuit). The 4.9 ECM directly drives the Firebird cluster. Part # on the box is 25071437. I have pictures if needed

quote Originally posted by Mickey_Moose: you can get a buffer circuit out of the 3rd gen Firebirds - it's a yellow box that is piggy back on the ECM. I have one laying around here that I was going to use (actually did try), but the buffer is not needed with the 4.9 (nor is the converter circuit). The 4.9 ECM directly drives the Firebird cluster. Part # on the box is 25071437. I have pictures if needed

My plug and play harness is designed for stock Fieros, using stock motor and ECM. Once you add in an engine swap it might get easier or harder depending on the setup. For most modern engines the ECM probably will have a buffered 4,000 ppm output and no external buffer needed. But you might need to adjust the tach signal.

Skarkman has a 3.4L so no tach adjustment should be required, I'm not sure what is going on there.

I checked on that part number for the buffer, and GMPP shows a cost of $35.41, that would be a great price, but unfortunately it's discontinued. Where is the ECM on the 3rd gen firebird? I used to have that brain cell, but I lost it. Is it behind the dash on the passenger side?

quote Originally posted by jscott1: I checked on that part number for the buffer, and GMPP shows a cost of $35.41, that would be a great price, but unfortunately it's discontinued. Where is the ECM on the 3rd gen firebird? I used to have that brain cell, but I lost it. Is it behind the dash on the passenger side?

yes

[This message has been edited by Mickey_Moose (edited 07-17-2007).]

quote Originally posted by jscott1: Sharkman has a 3.4L so no tach adjustment should be required, I'm not sure what is going on there.

I got a reading but not right without the module. The cluster is made for a 8 cylinder engine. Thats why I need the module.

------------------
Regards SHARKMAN
Europe # 1 choptop

If you look earlier in the thread it's shown how to modify the tach for 6 cylinder. All you need is a few resistors.

I know, but this way I am prepared if I change the engine...

quote Originally posted by Sharkman: I know, but this way I am prepared if I change the engine...

....you could just as easily readjust the pot for the different engine...and it is still cheaper than the module

quote Originally posted by Mickey_Moose: ....you could just as easily readjust the pot for the different engine...and it is still cheaper than the module

I agree,

with Mickey_Moose's instructions, I routinely add a couple of resistors and a small 100K potentiometer, I then set it with a frequency generator depending on the number of cylinders. Before I had the frequency generator I used a small ac power supply to do a single point calibration at 60hz. It takes about 30 minutes from start to finish.

there's a frequency generator program that works in windows. I used it for testing my 240 Cluster. At this time I'm not sure the name I'll have to look it up. I think it's SD something. It uses your sound card and can generate sine, square and sawtooth waves. Only problem I had was it didn't have the power to run the speedo over 90MPH. but it did exactly what I needed it to do though. best thing is it's free!

quote Originally posted by DIY_Stu: there's a frequency generator program that works in windows. I used it for testing my 240 Cluster. At this time I'm not sure the name I'll have to look it up. I think it's SD something. It uses your sound card and can generate sine, square and sawtooth waves. Only problem I had was it didn't have the power to run the speedo over 90MPH. but it did exactly what I needed it to do though. best thing is it's free!

I looked into that, you can even use a Casio keyboard and a transformer, that works as well. Since I'm constantly messing with speedometers, it was worth it for me to get the freq generator. I found that I could get a firebird speedometer up to about 300 mph before it stopped registering. I do that to get the digital odometer where I want it. I still need to advance mine another 23,000 miles, but I need to find a week or so when I'm not driving the car to do that.

Geezz, I wish that I had stayed in my electronics class back in the day........

I have been compiling as much info as possible on this swap and now have almost 200 pages in a word document.

Lots of pictures in my doc, & it all needs to be sorted but great info.

THANKS to ALL!!

John

quote Originally posted by jscott1: Tomorrow I'll show you how those get mounted in the interface.

Hopefully someone finds this interesting? Not much comments. But anyway progress on s/n 1006 continues.

First the box that contains the electronics.



Now I create the opening for the connectors amd ,mount them using the screws from the cluster.



Next to create the drawing to convert 94 Camaro into 88 Fiero.

Outstanding work!

Here is a shot at my progress. http://farm2.static.flickr....74753_805d0c8151.jpg
Not sure it is set back far enough.

quote Originally posted by 1986GTV8: Outstanding work! Not sure it is set back far enough.

Hard to say from that picture. What I did was to install the dash loosely and position, and reposition it until I got an acceptable fit from all directions.

It is SLOW going for me, but there is progress.

At least it is in the spot I wnat it. Noe to make mounting tabs.

THANKS to all !!

John

quote Originally posted by jscott1: I have a customer that is doing a 94 Camaro gauge swap and he has contracted me to finish it for him. The Camaro is very similar to the Firebird, but not exact. So I will have to create a new drawing for this one. There are two challenges with doing a plug and play solution on the Fiero

Anyone interested in doing a '94 Camaro Cluster here is the pinout:

[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 08-05-2007).]

quote Originally posted by jscott1: Anyone interested in doing a '94 Camaro Cluster here is the pinout:

Fiero to 1994 Camaro Cluster Complete

Very ingenious work. Could you do the same to a late model cluster like a GTO or Solstice?

quote Originally posted by Amida: Very ingenious work. Could you do the same to a late model cluster like a GTO or Solstice?

short answer: NO

long answer: newer cars use serial data between the instrument cluster and the ECM to drive the gages - the gages are no longer directly driven from a sensor as they have been in the past.

quote Originally posted by Amida: Very ingenious work. Could you do the same to a late model cluster like a GTO or Solstice?

Thanks,

I haven't looked at the GTO or Solstice cluster specically, but as Tim pointed out starting around 1997-1998 GM starting using serial data links to connect the various control modules to the cluster. While it's theoretically possible to convert the Fiero analog senders into serial data that is way beyond my capability.

It is possible that SOME late model clusters still use analog inputs but I don't have a cheat sheet to tell me which ones do and which ones don't.

I'm guessing their new method is very similar to BMW's CAN bus. The "Bimmer" version has me thoroughly hacked and explained in detail. From what I see the problem with serial bus'es is that they're proprietary, so unless someone took the time to hack the code so to speak, there is Nova (no go) to work with it.
Although I think it would be easier to just use VDO gauges and an adapter, as they're closer in design to the Solstice/Sky/Cobalt gauges. All you need is the right overlay. (Though the Lambo overlay is just to gorgeous to pass up...)

Side note: Then there is always the option of using a late model GM engine :-p (i.e.: the Turbo Ecotec from the solstice attached to a transverse tranny with the matching ECU and gauges. (260 lb-ft torque at 2200 rpm right up to redline ) )

quote Originally posted by Austrian Import: Side note: Then there is always the option of using a late model GM engine :-p (i.e.: the Turbo Ecotec from the solstice attached to a transverse tranny with the matching ECU and gauges. (260 lb-ft torque at 2200 rpm right up to redline ) )

This might work up to a point...but the cluster is going to be looking for inputs from ALL the modules, including the airbag module, the anit-lock brake module, the body control module, etc. To make it work properly you would have to transfer EVERTYHING from the donor car.

This would be impractical, so we are back to being able to hack into the serial bus and either delete the codes you don't need, or simulating them some other way.