quote Originally posted by mtownfiero: 3x00 heads? The only way i know how to tell is the D shaped exhaust port but i cant see in the pic though.

Yep, the 3400 heads that I pulled from a 2001 Olds Alero in the junkyard (2000+ 3100 heads are identical as well).

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 11-27-2009).]

I just remembered that I had taken lifter valley reference pics of the Alero 3400 in the junkyard when I was pulling the heads. Unfortunately I only had my cell phone camera so the quality is poor, but I think they might be worth posting here...

I'll be sure to keep taking pics as we are working on it for you. It will get really interesting when we are fabricating the "cool" parts
Dave

Nice project, I'll be following along....

One request - when you get around to measiuring the pushrod length for the gen 3 heads on a gen 2 block, please post them up!

Cheers

They have been measured, but the values don't necessarily mean anything to any other engine. Differences like how much the heads were shaved, gasket thicknesses, and factory tolerances among a few other potential differences like rocker arm ratio etc. render them useless to someone else's Gen II/III. A few people on 60degreeV6.com have posted their specs but they were each different, and different than mine are as well.

For reference, mine were:
Intake - 5.875"
Exhaust - 6.200"

Thanks for that.

I realize that head shaving/block decking... will change the requirements for specific engines. I've been considering scrapping my iron heads and doing a gen 3 top swap too. This gives me a ball park for the pushrod measuement tool(s) I'll need.

Cheers

Gotcha, no problem.

IIRC i've read the TGP block also has .010" more deck height than stockers also.
I'll look for,and edit in the article I read it in as soon as I find where I bookmarked it (and which pc I did it on.)

bump: updates?

There are more, but I'm having a very busy time lately. I'll get back to the updates as soon as I'm able.

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 12-11-2009).]

Are you going to be using roller lifters in your build? or will you need to use a flat tappet cam? From looking at your pics of the lifter valleys it doesn't look to be possible to mount the factory lifter retainers and I also can't determine from the pics if the lifter bores are even long enough to properly support the factory roller lifters. I know the tgp block is a high nickel block, but if you can't use a roller cam is it still the best option? Just how much boost are you planning to run? Unless you're planning some outrageous boost levels couldn't you make the 3x00 block live and gain the benefits of the roller cam? Will the forged tgp crank drop in the 3x00 block? I know going that route wouldn't retain much of the tgp engine but if the 3x00 block has enough strength for your boost levels wouldn't it be worth it so you could go with a roller cam and all its benefits?

------------------
88blackchopv8

quote Originally posted by ALLTRBO: <snip>but the big improvement is the Mahle pistons. While still hyper eutectic (IIRC), they're stronger all around than any other 'stock' pistons, and have a deeper dish for lower compression as well. <snip> When I build the really stout bottom end I'll use a Gen III block. <snip>Really, though, as you can see from above, I originally planned on using the whole TGP engine, just with a custom turbo setup. Once I decided to change the top end, it was easier just to use the same block and swap top ends, and I get to keep the low compression which is about 8.75:1 with the Gen III heads. A 3100 has 9.6:1 as it comes, no good for 15-20 psi on this setup.

:bump:

I've been waiting for clarification on a few things which I should find out soon, so I'll continue.

I had left the chronology with the block being stripped of its top end. Here are the head bolt holes being cleaned.





ARP head studs were installed. With moderate boost I don't want to play with blown gaskets all the time, and if I let that happen, then how could I burn a hole in some pistons and have an excuse to build the 'real' engine? Besides, these will transfer over to a Gen III block just the same, so its well-spent money.





At this point, the heads were installed then two of the bolt holes stripped out upon torquing! I have a few theories as to why that happened, but its neither here nor there because something had to be done about it. I had Dave install time-serts throughout. You know, if I really wanted a time-serted block I would have swapped in a Northstar!
Ah well. Stronger is better, and with these, stronger it is.
The piston tops were cleaned of their carbon as well.



Finally, it's starting to look like something cool! I had Dave paint the tranny low-gloss black, and the aluminum 3400 heads are dead-sexy. Eat your heart out, 3800SC swappers!





The heads were torqued to the recommended 71 ft/lbs, though I might think about increasing that to 80 when I retorque them after 500 miles. The head gaskets are Fel-Pro "Severe Duty" 3100 gaskets, .065" thick (pre-installed, I'll need to figure out a good way to get a compressed thickness measurement). Dave also installed a new timing chain and front-cover gaskets.

Looking a bit better now here, too...



This is the most current as far as the pictures go.

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 01-09-2010).]

I'll be looking into the pushrod issue within the next 48 hours. It is not like they are a few thousandths off, they are more like 1/8" too short. I'll figure it out...just need a few quiet minutes to see what had happened with the measurement. I'm very excited to see this project take to life and I'm glad Alltrbo let me be a part of it.
Dave

I love your engine-uity on getting this stuff to work together! I've been watching with interest from the beginning, and look forward to seeing it done. Keep the pics coming. -Jason

Dave, thanks and I'm glad you decided to be a part of it!

Jason, thanks. I only hope I turn out to be a decent systems engine-eer. I'll definitely keep going with this thread, though updates will probably continue to be sporadic.


As a side note; I haven't mentioned much about the body or interior yet, but I'll be giving a personalized treatment to those also, with parts I already have and parts I will acquire. In due time...

Home sick again , and the truck broke down to boot. (Darnit, I need a turbo Fiero to drive)
So... Here's another PS. This is based on SOULCRUSHER's awesome GT, with a few tweaks and a color change of course. I ran out of patience in trying to find a pic of the proper wheels at that angle, so I left his on there.
I do the color changes "manually" because I actually use Paint Shop Pro 9 instead of Photoshop, this takes forever.

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 01-12-2010).]

Your build is coming along really well, as well as being pretty unique. I'm really enjoying reading along. Keep up the good updates.

------------------
Tom
Suffolk, Va
87 GT 350 5 spd.

quote Originally posted by ALLTRBO:

I'm liking that colour scheme, if you could make the top a deep cherry red colour, I'd know how I'd like to paint mine then one day

Tom , thanks again.

x-thumpr-x, I'm almost finished with your indirect request. However, my computer had crashed and lost the right color so I'm going to have to match that up, and it will take some time. Life is incredibly busy for the time being.

As for MIDTRBO, stay tuned. Very awesome things are happening right now.

During this brief intermission I've been thinking out loud via Paint Shop Pro 9.
Hmm...



(see this thread for more)
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/079294.html

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 01-24-2010).]

Just thought I'd show where the top color is coming from. I've wanted a ZX-10R since they came out, and back in August this brand new Candy Plasma Blue one with a steep discount sealed the deal!

It's slightly modded now, and I don't think I'll EVER own anything so insanely fast beyond this. MIDTRBO will be close though (yeah right). To put it into perspective, FieroX can't keep up in the 1/4 mile (even with the bike on stock tires) and this will easily outhandle his car, especially with his drag slicks installed.
This bike makes 60 MORE horsepower (200hp) than a stock V6 Fiero, and weighs only 1/6th as much as one!

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 01-24-2010).]

Needed: Good source of 60*V6 flat tappet lifters (ie: NOT made in China junk). Companies are giving me the runaround so far. Any leads?

Note: This has not impeded on further progress. Moderate fabrication, minor surgery. Pics soon.

I bought the lifters from Crane Cams. Hopefully they're as quality as they claim.
I'm waiting on the rest of the pictures from Dave, then I'll post them all up.

I'm very torn open inside right now, being ripped apart from the opposing internal forces. I have too many irons in the fire, but I want to keep them there! Have a looksee if you haven't. I just added more pics.
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum6/HTML/071622.html

Man, you guys really don't care unless there are PICS, huh? Okay, I'll give in... Unfortunately it took me forever to save and resize all of the pics and it's way past bedtime, and I have work tomorrow. So, I can only leave you with this for now:



Here's what came out of the engine. If you look closely you can see that the plungers aren't even touching the retaining clips, they should be because of the internal springs. This is caused by either really worn internal springs (collapsed) or lots of crud gunking them up too much to move freely. Either way, no good, and I won't use them. It's weird, Dave had taken the pushrod measurements on all cylinders and they were all consistent. Then, as mentioned, he got the pushrods and noticed his measurements were way off. This is why. Since I ordered the new lifters (should be there tomorrow), everything internally should be buttoned up soon. Hopefully his first measurements were accurate to good lifters, and they'll be the correct ones. If not, new pushrods will have to be ordered again.

This and a few other issues are putting the overall integrity of the shortblock in question, hopefully it'll run just fine, with these new parts. If not, I have a backup plan for another "throwaway" shortblock until I build my serious shortblock, in which case no TGP parts will be left. Lets hope it doesn't come to that, yet.

More pics to come, the hot-side of the turbo setup is nearly complete. Good night...

Too tired for words, very very busy and painful week. If any questions, they'll be answered before long.













































Obviously not finished yet...

------------------
'88 Fiero GT - coming soon! Project MIDTRBO
'90 Camaro IROC-Z twin-turbo - For Sale (maybe)
(And too many more!)
There's no replacement for turbo placement

These were the initial -mock up- stage of the logs. We remade the intake manifold to clear the strut towers. I think Steven will print the pic and roll around naked on top of it....Just Kidding.....it came out that good!
More pics will be emailed tomorrow. The logs, Y-pipe, wastegate, low mount alternator and intake are completed and exhaust is ready to be sent to Jet Hot. Not too shabby for 14 hours at the Haus today.
Dave

------------------

1987 GT (my toy-see above), 1987 GT 3800s/c, 1986 SE with a VW VR6, certified master technician/shop owner
www.njautobahn.com
www.hausofguru.com

Nice looking setup on the mainifolds so far, Is the intake going to stay facing that way?

[This message has been edited by mtownfiero (edited 02-02-2010).]

quote Originally posted by mtownfiero: Nice looking setup on the mainifolds so far, Is the intake going to stay facing that way?

Yes, we turned the intake around and had to cut the neck off and reweld it to give it a different angle (not pictured yet). You have to do a double take on the intake to be able to tell that it was ever touched. Now the intercooler setup will be able to be made the way Alltrbo has specifies.

Here are the finished intake pics.





It now allows the throttle body to bolt up without interference. It is hard to tell that the egr system has been removed and filled, the intake was cut and TIG welded back together.
Dave

Heck, I can't even tell that the location moved at all.

Does it have enough clearance to account for engine movement? Unless I'm thinking bass-ackwards, the engine tries to rotate toward the rear of the car under launch/acceleration/shifting (I know it's not exactly an L98 with flimsy rubber mounts, but it will still move).
In addition, is there enough clearance still for a 2.5" i.d. silicone coupling (they're thick) to a 2.5" o.d. IC pipe (without a severe bend)?
One thing you can't account for right now is a larger throttlebody (62mm i.d. max), but if the body is slightly larger, would there be enough room still?

Just some concerns from looking at it. If you've thought all that through then move along, I don't want to hold you up!
Other than that, I do think it'll look perfect with a black crinkle powdercoated finish, topped with blue numbers/letters (eventually).

As a quick note to everyone: I originally wanted the intake to be turned around when I first conceived the Gen III top end swap, but quickly figured out the strut tower clearance issues. Knowing that I personally can't even begin to comprehend welding cast aluminum with my MIG setup (even with my spool-gun) , I threw the idea out and didn't even think about mentioning it to Dave. When he saw firsthand how tight the turbo would be with the TB on the same side, he asked about turning it around. Well needless to say, his welding guy had no problem with it, so there it is. Providing that it has all the clearance it'll ever need, that is perfect!

Still more explanation about the rest of it later, I need to get back to work.

P.S. Since the car will be using a '730 ECU, it won't be SFI (Sequential Fuel Injection) anymore, so I hereby designate SFI as Single Forced Induction (until I, or you folks, can think of something better. )

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 02-03-2010).]

yes, it is noticible difference when the intake is installed in the car. There is adequate clearance for what we need to do.

I never doubted you for a second.

Aside from the texture difference and a few very minute details, no one would be able to tell it was reworked. And yes, it looks 100x better without the EGR stuff. Awesome job guys!

Unfortunately I'm home feeling like hell again, I left early. This is not the week to be out at all.

Now that the intake is oriented 'properly', some of the Fiero connections will work easier, the "3100 SFI" faces the right way (sweet), and the intercooler plumbing will be easy as pie. I'm going to place the air/water IC in the stock cat location, and so the pipes will simply route down there, then over and up to the TB. I plan on doing the water/air setup myself, so I wasn't originally going to have Dave install a BOV since I would have to change the piping anyway, but now that its going to go the same route no matter what, I'm having him install a BOV on the IC piping as well. It's a Synapse Engineering "Synchronic" BOV, a new style of BOV that's supposed to be the best on the market right now, it has rave reviews from users. It's designed to actually work, not just to sound cool, and is configurable and adjustable to many setups (there's more to a BOV than one might think).


The logs aren't exactly as I specified (I had updated it from the drawing earlier), but much less labor intensive and they'll work just about as well this way.
My main concern with everything is cracking because of the high thermal cycling this setup will encounter (open track days and such), and I also plan on driving it anywhere from 0* with snow on the ground to 120* in the Arizona heat and everything in between, when needed. It's not my only car, but I want a car that will withstand every type of condition as well as a (newer) factory vehicle. I'm somewhat concerned that my (minimum) specified .065" wall thickness will not be enough, but it's thicker than most non-turbo headers. We shall see.

The lack of a flex section on the Y-pipe is because I hear as many bad things about them as good things. They create two more welded joints to possibly fail and they sometimes crack underneath the braid at the actual flex points.
I think it will be okay in that respect as it's not a 'tight' Y-pipe and so has a tiny bit of strain relief built in, and the way the two-bolt flanges to the log manifolds are oriented gives it a tiny bit more, because the gaskets in there are compressible.
At any rate, if it cracks on me, I will weld it back up and probably add a flex section.

I'm having Dave cut the manifold to head flanges in between each primary because this gives that area some strain relief and reduces the chance of the manifolds cracking. Of course all of this will also be ceramic coated inside and out with Jet Hot's "Jet Hot 2000" coating in black, which is good for up to 2450*. The turbine housing will also be coated in the same, but only the outside. That will also get a turbine blanket wrapped around it.

The wastegate is the ever-popular Tial 38mm. Its location (second to last and last pic in my picture post above) is a compromise. I wanted it angled toward the airflow, not doing this will sometimes cause boost creep. However, without some fancy fabrication and other space compromises, and another couple places to crack, this is the best compromise. I've definitely seen some wastegates in much worse locations, it 'should' be fine for this setup.
Studs are welded onto the flange and the flange is welded directly to the 'Y' section.

The turbo will be braced from underneath to hold its weight. The bracket design is not finalized, but Dave has something cool in mind.


These guys are really kicking butt. The main components are coming together, I'm really getting excited now!