I finished putting my new radiator in yesterday, replacing my 3 core copper radiator, and I am amazed at how much difference the aluminum one makes. After finishing the install I let the car run for a half hour idling, which typically generates some pretty high temperatures (at least on my car), when the fan kicked in it brought the temp down to two bars above bottom, and I know my gauge reads a little high. Now I can adjust my computer to bring the fan in at a little higher temp, so it isn't running most of the time.

I did have to do a few more minor modifications to fit the radiator in my '88, that weren't covered in Archie's installation thread of this radiator, but there were minor to get clearance so the radiator would would sit in it's home position letting all other attachment parts line up (look for interferences with other parts when doing the install).

Come on Cali,
you know the rules................... HAVE TO HAVE PICS!!!!!


Oh and where to buy

dunno where he got his....mine from fleabay, 'bout 220 delivered or so.

Got a suprise when putting mine in -- the old rad had about a 1-1/2" off center bow shape. The PO or a shop tried to raise the car from the rad!!!

I had to reshape the lower support -- nothing a 2x4 and a BFH couldn't take care of -- can't comment on capability yet, as swap is in progress, and for 88 fitment, well, it isn't a simple R&R, but still only took about an hour, including the reshaping of the lower support and trimming the upper mount.

Here's link where Archie posted install experience:

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/098899.html

Copy of Ebay Motors Ad, I just called them direct when I placed my order:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymot...?hash=item1c0cd4221c

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Car History: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/025670.html

I just put one of those Champion 3 core rads in mine as well. I have been very impressed with it, and it does a fantastic job at cooling her down.

quote Originally posted by California Kid: I finished putting my new radiator in yesterday, replacing my 3 core copper radiator, and I am amazed at how much difference the aluminum one makes. After finishing the install I let the car run for a half hour idling, which typically generates some pretty high temperatures (at least on my car), when the fan kicked in it brought the temp down to two bars above bottom, and I know my gauge reads a little high. Now I can adjust my computer to bring the fan in at a little higher temp, so it isn't running most of the time. I did have to do a few more minor modifications to fit the radiator in my '88, that weren't covered in Archie's installation thread of this radiator, but there were minor to get clearance so the radiator would would sit in it's home position letting all other attachment parts line up (look for interferences with other parts when doing the install).

Please let us know if you are comparing new to new or what your new copper rad did awhile ago to this new one or old copper to new al?

Thanks,
Charlie

quote Originally posted by cptsnoopy: Please let us know if you are comparing new to new or what your new copper rad did awhile ago to this new one or old copper to new al? Thanks, Charlie

The best way for me to summarize this is that the Champion Aluminum is at least 15 to 20 degree between than the Copper 3 core core I had in the car. The aluminum also drops the temp a lot quicker when the fan kicks in compared to the Copper (big benefit for spirited driving). My Copper 3 Core is in excellent condition, no deposits, no scale, like new condition, it just isn't as responsive as the aluminum. The Copper 3 Core was OK with my old engine that had about 50 less HP.

This was important to me as the Hilborn Injection likes temps in the 175 to 185 range, you can feel the difference as it hits 200 and above. I don't run a thermostat, only a re-stricter flange in the thermostat housing, also running Corvette water pump with re-circulation port plugged to increase flow. While my factory temp gauge does work, it reads about 10 to 15 degrees high, confirmed by Micro Tech laser temp gun. I've got a new AutoMeter Temp gauge, just have to find time to install it. Just finished an hour drive, playing around , and I'm very happy with the improvements in lowering the temp and bringing the performance up a notch.

That is unusual as copper has a higher thermal conductivity. Is there a difference in tube size round vs flat, and was the copper one a finned core design vs a flat fin design. is the aluminum core one finned with oval/flat tubes radiators with a finned core design cool better as there is more space for air to get around.

[This message has been edited by Macs86GT (edited 04-04-2010).]

quote Originally posted by Macs86GT: That is unusual as copper has a higher thermal conductivity. Is there a difference in tube size round vs flat, and was the copper one a finned core design vs a flat fin design. is the aluminum core one finned with oval/flat tubes radiators with a finned core design cool better as there is more space for air to get around.

Both Radiators are oval/flat tube with finned core, the radiators are very similar in design, flat tubes on aluminum one might be slightly wider, or it could be an illusion due to the bright color of the aluminum. I can tell you that the capacity of coolant is exactly the same, as I saved what I drained, refilling system required no additional coolant.

What kind of water pump are you using?

Thats a good radiator then I'll have to look into one when the time comes. I used to work in a radiator factory making the cores only reason i asked about the fin design.

quote Originally posted by Jake_Dragon: What kind of water pump are you using?

Non Archie kit, using stock SBC Corvette pump with re-circulation port blocked off. Everything packages in engine compartment.

quote Originally posted by Macs86GT: That is unusual as copper has a higher thermal conductivity. Is there a difference in tube size round vs flat, and was the copper one a finned core design vs a flat fin design. is the aluminum core one finned with oval/flat tubes radiators with a finned core design cool better as there is more space for air to get around.

What some are calling a "flat tube" design is known as a "plate / fin" style heat exchanger vs. a "tube / fin" style.
Plate / fin style heat exchangers are generally more efficient than a "tube / fin" style.
It's all about surface area....

[This message has been edited by randye (edited 04-04-2010).]

Pics of the radiator from the other thread:

I also installed one of those in an 88. Not exactly a bolt in affair but I am happy with it. It was a little more work than I was lead on to believe. The tanks are much larger than the stock Fiero tanks and the new rad is also a very tight fit in the upper and lower bracket/frames.

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I spent at least 8 hrs putting mine in, didn't take pictures of minor changes I made, was too busy figuring out the fit issues. Safe to say if the upper hold down brace doesn't line up with mounting holes, you've got interferences holding the radiator out of design location. One point I will make is that there are two threaded bolt shafts (at least on the 88 GT), one at each side of the car at the lower radiator that prevent it from going all the way forward. (letting it sit properly in the bottom channel). You must grind off the excess thread of the bolt down to the nut, so that you don't have to worry about them rubbing a hole into the tanks of the radiator. Also on the 88 you have to cut down the rubber isolators that are on the underside of the upper hold down brace, but do not cut them until you confident the radiator is sitting properly, there should be a little compression into the rubber when you fasten the brace down.

i also bought one for my V8 car, how ever it made NO difference at all. not sure what could be wrong now

quote Originally posted by California Kid: I spent at least 8 hrs putting mine in, didn't take pictures of minor changes I made, was too busy figuring out the fit issues. Safe to say if the upper hold down brace doesn't line up with mounting holes, you've got interferences holding the radiator out of design location. One point I will make is that there are two threaded bolt shafts (at least on the 88 GT), one at each side of the car at the lower radiator that prevent it from going all the way forward. (letting it sit properly in the bottom channel). You must grind off the excess thread of the bolt down to the nut, so that you don't have to worry about them rubbing a hole into the tanks of the radiator. Also on the 88 you have to cut down the rubber isolators that are on the underside of the upper hold down brace, but do not cut them until you confident the radiator is sitting properly, there should be a little compression into the rubber when you fasten the brace down.

quote Originally posted by California Kid: The best way for me to summarize this is that the Champion Aluminum is at least 15 to 20 degree between than the Copper 3 core core I had in the car.

If you're happy with it that's great, but wow, 8 hours of modification work for what seems like a very marginal improvement?
That temperature difference you reported is about 8-9%... not a whole lot greater than a 5% tolerance on a temp. gage.
(I don't think I've seen a lot of temp. gages a whole lot better than 2% tolerance on the most expensive high end stuff.)
I'm not bashing your mod., and like I said, if you're happy with it , that's great. It just seems like for a stock or mildly modified engine, this radiator swap is fast approaching the "law of diminishing returns" for the cost and labor required.

It does *look* fantastic though, and I've sure done my fair share of mods that have no performance improvement but look sweet.

[This message has been edited by randye (edited 04-05-2010).]

quote Originally posted by randye: If you're happy with it that's great, but wow, 8 hours of modification work for what seems like a very marginal improvement? That temperature difference you reported is about 8-9%... not a whole lot greater than a 5% tolerance on a temp. gage. (I don't think I've seen a lot of temp. gages a whole lot better than 2% tolerance on the most expensive high end stuff.) I'm not bashing your mod., and like I said, if you're happy with it , that's great. It just seems like for a stock or mildly modified engine, this radiator swap is fast approaching the "law of diminishing returns" for the cost and labor required. It does *look* fantastic though, and I've sure done my fair share of mods that have no performance improvement but look sweet.

Let me clarify what I've posted above, I said "at least" a 15 to 20 degree improvement in cooling. With the copper 3 core I was running pretty darn close either side of 220 on factory gauge (mid point on gauge), with the aluminum I'm just either side of 170. This is with the car fully warmed up in traffic at speed of 45-50 mph, lights, and occasionally heavy foot. With the copper core, once the temp rose above 220 it just wanted to keep climbing slowly under same driving conditions (you had to baby it for a while to get it to settle back down). The aluminum core will approach 210 with hard driving, but it does cool down very quickly under moderate throttle.

Kinda difficult to explain all this, but it made a very significant difference on my car. I realize there are acceptable % deviation on gauge readings, know mine reads a little high, the temps I quoted are off the same factory gauge. The hour test run I took yesterday was pushing the car pretty hard, and in all fairness probably harder than normal to see where the temp would go with the new radiator.

What really stood out to me, was that upon first start up, when I let the engine idle for 30 minutes, I couldn't let it idle nearly that long with copper core radiator, temp would just keep climbing even with the fan on. The aluminum radiator seems very happy to set around 170 with the fan running. Hope this clears it up a little.

WE've installed 7 or 8 of these radiators so far & none of them has taken any more than 2 hours. I'm thinking that whoever originally installed your old rad. mat\y have made some modifications to the mounting to get it to fit right & some of your time was spent undoing those changes.

Archie

quote Originally posted by California Kid: Let me clarify what I've posted above, I said "at least" a 15 to 20 degree improvement in cooling. With the copper 3 core I was running pretty darn close either side of 220 on factory gauge (mid point on gauge), with the aluminum I'm just either side of 170. This is with the car fully warmed up in traffic at speed of 45-50 mph, lights, and occasionally heavy foot. With the copper core, once the temp rose above 220 it just wanted to keep climbing slowly under same driving conditions (you had to baby it for a while to get it to settle back down). The aluminum core will approach 210 with hard driving, but it does cool down very quickly under moderate throttle. Kinda difficult to explain all this, but it made a very significant difference on my car. I realize there are acceptable % deviation on gauge readings, know mine reads a little high, the temps I quoted are off the same factory gauge. The hour test run I took yesterday was pushing the car pretty hard, and in all fairness probably harder than normal to see where the temp would go with the new radiator. What really stood out to me, was that upon first start up, when I let the engine idle for 30 minutes, I couldn't let it idle nearly that long with copper core radiator, temp would just keep climbing even with the fan on. The aluminum radiator seems very happy to set around 170 with the fan running. Hope this clears it up a little.

Thanks for the clarification.
I noted that you're cooling a highly modified V8, so you obviously need all the capacity you can get.
From what you have just stated, it appears that you obtained almost a 19% decrease in average temperature.
I would think that the % improvement for a stock or slightly modified V6 would be even better.
During my last round of improvements to my 87 GT with 3.4L motor and stock TH125 trans, I dropped in a new OEM style radiator and a Dickman 195* fan switch and low temp thermostat.
The car will idle all day long at 90* ambient temp and never exceed 195* on the gage. (I'm using SpeedHut Revolution Series gages with upgraded sensors @ 2-4% tolerance.)
I really need to swap out the old 3 speed trans and drop in a 4T60, as I believe it's my cruise speeds with the higher RPMs from the old trans that are making my water temp, sit at 210* steady at speed.
Until the trans swap, I planned on installing an aux. trans cooler to try to drop the added heat to the radiator a bit, but with the numbers you are reporting I might just swap out my new radiator to an even newer one. If I could realize a 15% temp improvement at speed that would be approx. 178* and would be fantastic.

Thought I should add that my comments are mainly a comparison between my old copper 3 core versus the new aluminum 3 core. I also run a engine oil cooler with thermo fan set at 185, it buried in left rear wheel house behind side scoop, engine oil capacity is 7 quarts. Keep in mind this is a freshly built engine with only a couple thousand break-in miles, and I think with a few thousand more miles it will loosen up a little more, generating a little less heat. Engine oil is still getting the crap kicked out of it, with pressure dropping (viscosity) at around 1,000 miles of use, 25 psi loss by 2,000 miles, full recovery with oil change at 2,000 ( still using break-in oil ). So this would be probably considered an extreme test.

my radiator just blew so I need to get a new one, these champion 3 cores look great. I was just wondering what size fits in the fiero.

quote Originally posted by fierogt17: my radiator just blew so I need to get a new one, these champion 3 cores look great. I was just wondering what size fits in the fiero.

They all fit with some minor modifications, review this thread:

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/098899.html

They come standard with automatic transmission cooling fittings in tank halves wither you use them or not, plug them if you have a manual trans just to keep crap out of there. You can order off Ebay, or just call them to order.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymot...&hash=item45f51464c1

Champion does a good job for a reasonably priced radiator. My 1966 Coronets went out a few months ago. The only ones available I could find were upwards from $500. I found Champion online. I have a 413 cu in/390 hp Super Stock engine with auto. Mine was a direct bolt in that took me all of 30 mins to install. I got a 2 row because he told me they were good up to 500 hp engines. Impressed me that he said IF it didnt keep it cool, he would send me a 3 row for nothing. It was in the 90s for last few months most of the time and never got over 180* highway or stop and go traffic. Mine was $170 delivered to my door. I also liked they came with new cap and chain retainer.