If you try to find the answer online, you get conflicting answers. However, I have a memory in my mind of a Pontiac TV ad from the late 70's that used the name "Iron Duke" to describe their "new 2.5 liter 4-cylinder engine". I never found anything to substantiate that until now. Below is an ad for the 1977 Pontiac Sunbird from Road and Track Magazine:
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10:27 AM
PFF
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sspeedstreet Member
Posts: 2306 From: Santa Maria, CA Registered: Dec 2002
I always assumed it had to do with the earlier Vega aluminum L4 motor. They had such a bad reputation for poor durability GM had to make sure the public knew the aluminum design was gone.
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12:49 PM
zigaroo Member
Posts: 361 From: Frederica, Delaware Registered: Aug 2009
The "Iron Duke" moniker is because of the aluminum Vega engine had such bad press that Pontiac wanted to make sure eveyone knew it was a stronger engine.
Those Sunbirds were fun to drive. They were a great little car back then. (had one) The V-6 was a 3.8L. The Chevy version was called a Monza and had a Spyder version with a 305 V-8.
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07:11 PM
jscott1 Member
Posts: 21676 From: Houston, TX , USA Registered: Dec 2001
Why in the world was the auto mandatory in California? Wouldn't that decrease fuel economy compared to the 4speed ?
Too hard back then to control emissions with a manual. Today the engine computers are much smarter, but back then you could out drive the computer and force the engine to do bad stuff and pollute more. I remember the 350V8 was never offered in the 3rd gen Firebird so I opted for the 305V8 instead.
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07:35 PM
fastblack Member
Posts: 3696 From: Riceville, IA Registered: Nov 2003
I had the Olds Starfire GT version. Mine was a silver 1976 Starfire with black GT stripes. 3.8l V6 and 4 speed....ran pretty good for it's time. It liked to eat clutches, but that could have been my 16 year old heavy right foot causing that as well. I'd love to find a zero rust Monza/Skyhawk/Starfire/Sunbird today. Wish I had kept mine.
Great find......+ for you.
Wow....I even found an old pic on my hard drive.
A scanned Polaroid of the car circa 1982 or so. I sold it the following year
[This message has been edited by Frizlefrak (edited 06-23-2010).]
My 1980 Sunbird Formula Sport Coupe. 406 SBC 700r4 (I love the 700r4 1st gear) with a 3200/3600 Boss hog lockup stall with 342 gears. Car is Mattel black now. Sorry no Dukes here.
Engine been on a dyno. But I will not say the HP to many non believers. And I can't back it up. I never ran a Q. but 1/8 times are Just a tick under 5 secs. Fast enough that they pulled me off the track. Because of No cage.
[This message has been edited by billpapps (edited 06-23-2010).]
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12:46 AM
Oreif Member
Posts: 16460 From: Schaumburg, IL Registered: Jan 2000
The "Iron Duke" moniker is because of the aluminum Vega engine had such bad press that Pontiac wanted to make sure eveyone knew it was a stronger engine.
Those Sunbirds were fun to drive. They were a great little car back then. (had one) The V-6 was a 3.8L. The Chevy version was called a Monza and had a Spyder version with a 305 V-8.
Chevy also offered a Monza with a 350 V8 in this car for California and high alt cars. I remember seeing them and many people wanted them and had to go to California to or out west to find one. It had the bigger engine for emissions as the 305 was not certified by CARB.
The Spyder was only an option trim package It could be had with the V6 too in only 4 colors. There was a cool Mirage edition with road race flairs but it was very rare back then and even more so now.
The Monza was to orginally have the Wankle Rotory engine. GM never could solve the issues with the Emission and reliability problems that also hurt the early Mazda versions too. WIth the death of the Rotory GM had to fit the other engines to this car. AMC also was to buy Rotorys from GM for the Pacer. That is why they got the inline 6 that had to go way up under the dash as they had no other engine.
These cars had their issues but were better than many of the car in the 70's. The real issue was most cars were crap so this was just better crap than most of the others. Many just rusted away.
I always liked this hatch and wished it had been lighter and built better.
These cars made some cool IMSA road race cars and won many races.
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07:06 AM
PFF
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hyperv6 Member
Posts: 6132 From: Clinton, OH, USA Registered: Mar 2003
Too hard back then to control emissions with a manual. Today the engine computers are much smarter, but back then you could out drive the computer and force the engine to do bad stuff and pollute more. I remember the 350V8 was never offered in the 3rd gen Firebird so I opted for the 305V8 instead.
You are correct on the 4 speed part and also the fact the 305 just had issues getting past the CARB board in Cali. Funny thing was later the Turbo TA was built in Cali and could only be sold in 49 states as California only approved a 305 non turbo V8 for California. The Vette also had a limited 305 offering in California.
The Emissions certification deales were very odd.
And yes the Thrd Gen did getr a 350 TPI later on as stated above.
Chevy also offered a Monza with a 350 V8 in this car for California and high alt cars. I remember seeing them and many people wanted them and had to go to California to or out west to find one. It had the bigger engine for emissions as the 305 was not certified by CARB.
The Spyder was only an option trim package It could be had with the V6 too in only 4 colors. There was a cool Mirage edition with road race flairs but it was very rare back then and even more so now.
The Monza was to orginally have the Wankle Rotory engine. GM never could solve the issues with the Emission and reliability problems that also hurt the early Mazda versions too. WIth the death of the Rotory GM had to fit the other engines to this car. AMC also was to buy Rotorys from GM for the Pacer. That is why they got the inline 6 that had to go way up under the dash as they had no other engine.
These cars had their issues but were better than many of the car in the 70's. The real issue was most cars were crap so this was just better crap than most of the others. Many just rusted away.
I always liked this hatch and wished it had been lighter and built better.
These cars made some cool IMSA road race cars and won many races.
Will, all one thing I like the notchback :P There was no IMSA kits for the Coupe.
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08:36 AM
css9450 Member
Posts: 5533 From: Glen Ellyn, Illinois, USA Registered: Nov 2002
I'd love to find a zero rust Monza/Skyhawk/Starfire/Sunbird today.
I would to! Those cars were once everywhere and now are virtually extinct.
I remember a friend who had a Monza with the small V8 in it. He took it on a trip to Upper Michigan some years ago, where he hit a gigantic pothole which collapsed part of the car's frame or unibody, to the point it was sagging so badly in the middle it couldn't be driven. He wound up having it towed to the junkyard and he took the bus home, but not before burying his tools and whatever else he couldn't carry way back in the woods for retrieval later.
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10:23 AM
Oreif Member
Posts: 16460 From: Schaumburg, IL Registered: Jan 2000
My understanding was that the Duke was designed for the Pontiac Astre, however the 140 ohc Vega engine did it's damage and the Sunbird got the new engine. And I would believe any story on the Iron part. the 140s had a cast iron head over an aluminum alloy block with some kind of silica cylinder lining. I put 3 in my Astre in less than 3 years. it seamed that at 70,000 miles they would blow. All three of mine blew the 3rd cylinder to bits.
On a side note the 350 in the Monza was almost scary to drive and the 305 combination was a close 2nd. You could brake the tires loose in any gear and it seamed at any speed. Don't tell my wife she hates my crazy car stories. I wish I still had those cars. Here is my list as follows 1 Astre 140 auto 4 Sunbirds (2) 2.5's (1)3.8 even fire (1) 3.8 odd fire autos 1 Starfire 3.8 4spd 1 Monza 2.5 4spd A buddy I worked with had the 350 and a guy I went to school with had the 305 both autos both factory. Rich
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05:52 PM
Frizlefrak Member
Posts: 2921 From: El Paso, Texas Registered: Aug 2003
I probably should have been more specific. The first two have the single round headlight and are later cars.....I would be looking for the square quad headlight front end '76-'78. The third listing has two of the same plus a town coupe, which wasn't my favorite. I'd also want a factory A/C and auto car, and they're a little harder to come by.
"this new sunbird can not only haul, it can haul."
