quote Originally posted by Hockaday: Now I'm reading some slightly off putting things...such as people keeping their " secrets " for this or that reason...which if this is true imho defeats the purpose of being on a forum that is for sharing information etc. Last I checked we're not competing race team. If you're going to delete posts and try to screw other people out of knowledge I'm not sure why you're here.

After trying for so long,and always being "wrong", I decided, screw it, these guys are right, and left the masses to believe it

quote Originally posted by mptighe: I honestly believe this. When I first started looking into Fieros, I was told by several people (Archie, WCF, Darth) that the a manual wouldn't really handle a 3800, period.

I don't think I ever said exactly that. At the time I made those comments, I did not know about the F23. And I still don't, but I'll reserve judgement on the F23 until I see some more people running it behind high-power engines.

There are several people on this very forum who have broken many Getrag 282's behind even stock engines, let alone mild and high performance builds. There are also several people in the G6 community who have broken their F40's behind STOCK engines - that's in a low traction FWD environment. So when a customer comes to me and tells me they want me to build a RELIABLE swap they can daily drive AND drag race, and not have to worry about breaking the transmission, what can I really recommend? A transmission that has PROVEN to be able to be destroyed behind the very engine we are installing into the car? A relatively "new" transmission that nobody has really pushed the limits of? Or a transmission that has a track record of holding up to just about anything that can be thrown at it when it is built properly?

When several people run the F23 or any other FWD manual trans behind powerful engines and none break, then I'll endorse it. I'm sorry, but just one or two guys doing something with success does not always translate into everyone else being able to duplicate that same success. Don't take that as me saying I don't think the F23 is strong, but rather take it as I just want to see more of them being used and abused without failure before I will accept it is a good alternative. Until that day, all I have to rely on is track records.

But for the record, I would like to see more of these F23's being used in swaps because I would like to have something strong to offer as an alternative to automatics that is also affordable.

-ryan
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7+ years on this same swap -- NO engine or transmission failures...

Custom GM OBD1 & OBD2 Tuning | Engine Conversions & more | www.gmtuners.com

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 12-03-2010).]

quote Originally posted by L67: Nosrac, You need to start over at the beginning of this thread and re-read everything, I've already answered several of these questions. More people aren't doing this because most of us have been keeping the information under the table for at least 2 years. I still remember John and I talking about the transmission at our University homecoming night in 2008. There was a build thread at RFT for some time, including pictures, specs, install walkthrough, shifter linkages, etc. When John tried to post about it here, Formula88 brought up the torque specifications (exactly as mera7 did on page 1) which was shortly followed by a clan of people who were convinced it was not only a bad idea, but the incorrect bolt pattern. We deleted our posts here, John deleted his build thread at RFT, and we've all kept quiet about it since (Jncomutt, Me, Youngun88, Darkhorizon, Will, Levi, Crzyone, Kohburn, Stimpy, Steven Snyder, Fieromadman, anyone who frequented RFT). Here's an example of how things were kept under wraps: Here John's essentially repeating what he was told here: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/101392.html Meanwhile, John and I were seeing first hand what it could do, and posts at RFT kept everyone in the loop on longevity and the latest attempts to destroy the transmission. http://realfierotech.com/ph...?f=3&t=17189&start=0 So if you didn't know about it, its because the information was chased off 2 years ago, by people who thought they knew what they were talking about. It's very likely John's putting more power to the ground through a manual transaxle than Justin (Justin's quicker, but John has a 130mph trap), so probably the most power through a manual transaxle than any other Fiero. Going through axles tells you something about how strong the transmission is. His new setup with an automatic is probably going to be very quick. Your modded 3800 is probably making a little over half the torque John is.

I have a different username there, but I've been active on RFT since early '08
I've seen the problems of trying to convince know-it-alls of new info.
I was skeptical, but I went and spent a week reading non-Fiero forums. I learned that the F23 is getting rave reviews, while the F35 is getting a reputation of being fragile. I didn't find any failure stories for the F23, but I found literally hundreds of F35 issues. That may be why the F35 never shows up in Fiero discussions. It takes the same splines as the F40, so some of those guys are trying to install F40s. But some have swapped to the F23, and reported great success.
I'm not surprised that G6 guys kill their F40s, the flywheel is way too heavy.

[This message has been edited by Isolde (edited 12-03-2010).]

Hi Atilla.

I'm excited for the next person do this. I've already helped one other person with a 3800SC do the F23 swap, and I know of a TURBO 3.8L that ran a F23 with great success with plenty of track time. Neither F23 has failed.

I really hope someone else beats the hell out of their F23 and reports back, almost in a sort of "ah ha!" kinda way.. lol

quote Originally posted by Isolde: I'm not surprised that G6 guys kill their F40s, the flywheel is way too heavy.

I would agree. But even if you run a lighter-weight flywheel behind a V8 that ends up having the same or more rotating mass (for the total package) as a G6's V6 with the heavy flywheel, how does this make any difference?

So, what shift linkage/shifter mods are required to use the F23? Is there any aftermarket custom gears for it?

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: I would agree. But even if you run a lighter-weight flywheel behind a V8 that ends up having the same or more rotating mass (for the total package) as a G6's V6 with the heavy flywheel, how does this make any difference?

I guess you're referring to the V8 crank being heavier? True, but it's in close to the center, not way out. With the G6 flywheel, the weight is way out near the starter ring gear. Having the same weight farther out multiplies the inertia. So the V8 combo will have less inertia.

ill do some real world reserch if someone will donate a f23 for my build, and the built l67 would help to. lol
but really when i do mine i will report my findings. oh what would be the easest cradle to do the swap on. i have an 84 and am going to build another cradle. drop out the old and hook up the new.

My local yard has 6 2000-2002 Cavi's and 2 Sunfires. I plan to hit them tomorrow. If I find a F23, I will be pulling it. If I find two, I'll pull them both.

I really wish I had known about this trans last month. I would have used one with my LS376 build.

but I will have one sitting in the garage just in case.

Rob

went by my local pull a part today and found a f23 in a 2002 cavalier. i just went to investigate but didnt have any tools with me. going back on monday to pull it. not going to use it right at this moment but will shelve it incase i break my heavily modded 282. i likely will tear the 287 apart though and will miche all the shafts and gears so we can have a comparison to sizes of a 282 setup.

I will see what I can dig up on the f-23 at the dealership this week.

Is it possible to pick up some attitude for me while your at the yard? I'd like to bolt it to my 60* 3800

[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 12-03-2010).]

You're at the yard.

You're right

this posting has been very informative to me .i have an f23 in my car and knew nothing about it until now .it came with the 2.2 ecotec i put in my 86 GT .i am running the OEM clutch as well .after 50000 turbocharged KM , it still runs and shifts like the day i bought it .i dont think my motor has much more than 200 lbs of torque so not that big of a torture test here .

quote Originally posted by L67: Continue?

Sweeet... I had no idea this was a 3 shaft transmission...

quote GM technical specification on the F23: Released 2006 The Getrag F23 is a three-axis conventional transverse 5-speed manual transaxle with fully synchronized reverse gear. It features compact packaging, broad low-torque applications, and reliable operation. The F23 has two gearsets on each of three parallel shafts – the input shaft, the output shaft, and the intermediate shaft. This three-shaft (also called three-axis) design results in a very short axial length for better packaging. There are three separate shift fork shafts, which hold three shift forks to activate the synchronizer rings for the two gearsets on each of the three gear shafts. The shift forks are activated by a cable system. The clutch release bearing is operated by a concentric slave cylinder that surrounds the input shaft in the clutch housing. A concentric slave cylinder allows more linear clutch feel than an external lever-actuated clutch and release bearing. The input shaft carries the 3rd and 4th gear synchronizer, the intermediate shaft carries the 1st and 2nd gear synchronizer, and the output shaft carries the 5th and reverse gear synchronizer. The aluminum case contains a conventional final drive gearset. There are sintered bronze double-cone blocker rings on the synchronizers for 1st and 2nd gears, while 3rd and 4th gears use carbon fiber blocker rings, and 5th and Reverse gears use molybdenum on their synchronizers. Carbon and molybdenum are extremely durable friction surfaces that remain stable even under extreme heat.

quote It just so happens I have a comparison between the F23 and F40 pulled up in my other tab: code: Early F40 F23 282(MG2) 1-3.77 1-3.58 1-3.50 2-2.04 2-2.02 2-2.05 3-1.32 3-1.35 3-1.38 4-.95 4-.98 4-0.94 5-.76 5-.69 5-0.72 6-.62 Final Drive 3.55 Final Drive 3.94 Final drive 3.61

I knew it was geared almost exactly the same as the 282. It could benefit tremendously from the 2.50/185 first/second combo... If I'm going to spend money on doing that, I might as well do it to a proven transmission rather than cryo treating and REM polishing 282 guts and hoping they hold. Interesting. And it has multiple final drive options from 3.61 through 3.94 also. I'm not sure what final the 2.2 Cavis had, though. The GM Powertrain website lists the HHR as being the only app that currently gets the 3.94.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 12-03-2010).]

another thing is that manual tranny stock fiero axles mate perfectly to the f23 .

Does anyone know or come across any documentation of what any of the shaft center distances are, or do I have to take one apart and measure them myself?

quote Originally posted by L67: Here's a video of the transmission being beaten on in Jncomutt's car:

I don't know anybody else but when I saw this early today I placed a couple of phone calls and I find a couple F23s for $275 one from a Cavalier (18k) and the other was from a sunfire (32k) and since my brother owed me some money I had him pick them up for me . If the F23 can handle that kind of power and abuse than it should be able to take what I dish out.

[This message has been edited by BMTFIERO (edited 12-04-2010).]

Consider me interested...

Will this tranny (287) require custom mounts or axles? Now I know what to replace my 282 with when it explodes behind my s/c 3800 .

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quote Originally posted by JamesCurtis: Consider me interested... Will this tranny (287) require custom mounts or axles? Now I know what to replace my 282 with when it explodes behind my s/c 3800 .

The mounts are different / axles are the same.... So I've read.

quote Originally posted by Will: Does anyone know or come across any documentation of what any of the shaft center distances are, or do I have to take one apart and measure them myself?

75mm according to one of the spreadsheets I have saved on my HD.

quote Originally posted by BMTFIERO: I don't know anybody else but when I saw this early today I placed a couple of phone calls and I find a couple F23s for $275 one from a Cavalier (18k) and the other was from a sunfire (32k) and since my brother owed me some money I had him pick them up for me . If the F23 can handle that kind of power and abuse than it should be able to take what I dish out.

That was one of the worst sounding burn outs I have seen. bouncing off the rev limiter, come on... Yes I can do better

That was a two step, not a rev limiter.

[This message has been edited by L67 (edited 12-04-2010).]

Extra props for the info about the existence of a 3.63:1 final drive. That's worthy of a plus rating. However, I extremely doubt that the third decimal place of all 5 gears is a zero. I'd much prefer to have all ratios to 7 decimal places, like the 282. Or at least 4, like the F40-MT2. Anyway, I still have new spreadsheets to work up.

Anyone who can give exact tooth counts, for the 287, please share. I'll then work out each ratio to 7 decimal places.

To show why the extra decimal places matter, look at this made-up example: IF first is 3.575:1 and FDR is 3.945:1, then 35 mph with 245/40R17 tires is 6715 rpm. But IF first is 3.584:1 and FDR is 3.954:1, then the result is 6747 rpm. Huge difference.

[This message has been edited by Isolde (edited 12-04-2010).]

quote Originally posted by L67:

Oh please santa put one of these under my tree !!

I spent some time reading on the cobalt forums of the F23 with good results. Not overwhelmingly so but I haven't found anything creditably bad.
Some report over 3 times the torque being laid down on one than the GM ratings suggest. The longest claims however of abuse of one is around a year from what I have gathered.

http://www.cobaltss.net/for...ission-thread-76854/

You will still need to adapt the hydraulic line, use custom mounts and custom shift cable bracket. From the recent interest that's been sparked, I might have to start offering these for sale...

Looking forward to the good info Iso, Someday I will have to decide what tranny to replace my isuzu with when i put a n* etc in.

ok so all the specs we are seeing here is on the 2010 f23 from a cobalt. this wont fit our applications? correct? what if we were to get the cavalier f23 and change its bellhousing to the cobalt one? only reason i ask is the 2010 cobalt f23 has the carbon friction material, and the 3.63 ring and pinion ratio, stronger gears, steel synchros instead of brass, and the 3 shaft trans. i would be very interested in a cobalt f23.

[This message has been edited by mera7 (edited 12-05-2010).]

quote Originally posted by katore8105: I spent some time reading on the cobalt forums of the F23 with good results. Not overwhelmingly so but I haven't found anything creditably bad. Some report over 3 times the torque being laid down on one than the GM ratings suggest. The longest claims however of abuse of one is around a year from what I have gathered. http://www.cobaltss.net/for...ission-thread-76854/

Looks to me that the stronger Cobalt SS F35 5-speed tranny would be a better alternative. Different bellhousing pattern on that??

http://www.ask.com/wiki/F35_(MU3)_transmission

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My World of Wheels Winners (Click on links below)

3.4L Supercharged 87 GT and Super Duty 4 Indy #163

The F35 is rated for more than the F23, but its only better on paper. In the real world, the F23 is holding up to more abuse than the F35. It seems you guys are so set on number crunching with these transmissions. Yes, the F35 and F40 are rated for more, most of us all know that. The F35 never came with the GM V6 bellhousing pattern, and they don't hold up as well under abuse. It doesn't matter to me how well it does on paper, if its breaking when pushed, and the F23 is NOT breaking when pushed, that speaks volumes to me. Again, this explains the history of me and this F23 when it comes to posting and information.

jnco i believe you and am very interested in what you have to say thank you for your information and inputs

For what its worth my 3800 supercharged cant break my f23 and I drive the car everyday and it sees no less then 2 dumps a trip Ive had a few other cars over the 300 whp range with f23's that never destroyed the trans either. (jbodys)

Total cost of my f23 swap?


$105 dollars for the trans
$12 dollars for some metal for trans mounts
Total $117 dollars

Do an f40 for $117 dollars...

The 282 only has the gearing in its favor, the f40 isnt exactly great gearing either.

Hey Jinx, not trying to start something because I know how frustrating it is when you try to offer sound advice and poeple say "you're wrong" BUT what was the point of deleting posts? Did it really bother you that much? Also, maybe I'm missing something but who's your new groupie?

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Alan Frazier

'84 2m4 Northstar 5 speed
'84 3800SCII sold
'86 GT-'92 3.4 TDC 5 speed(sold)

jncomutt if you build the mounts and brackets ill be in line to buy. as long as the price is good