Wow after people reading this thread, there are 282 getrags in the mall like never before, i havent had the time to read all the posts,someone here shopuld be doing the F23 swaps compleat with mounts shift kit ect. a great altenative to costly 6 speed, if i had the time resorces and R&D i would do it, who ever does this PM me frist in line for one !!! Duane (RULOOKIN)
I'd honestly just like ALL the info / pics all in one build up thread. I have brand new rodney dickman 282 mounts that I can try n modify for the new trans, but just all the stuff including the VSS converter etc. I'm just glad I didn't purchase my slave cyl yet.
So far from what I've gathered in this thread,
For the F23 to swap in you need to;
- Make / modify mounts to fit - Play with / modify brackets for either the Izuzu or Getreg Cables - Some how convert the VSS - Install the Slave modification.
Now I don't know about you guys.. But when I get this transmission installed, I'm going to put it to the test with at least 425whp/450torque. Videos will be posted.
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02:53 PM
mera7 Member
Posts: 1355 From: piedmont oklahoma usa Registered: Sep 2009
Wow after people reading this thread, there are 282 getrags in the mall like never before, i havent had the time to read all the posts,someone here shopuld be doing the F23 swaps compleat with mounts shift kit ect. a great altenative to costly 6 speed, if i had the time resorces and R&D i would do it, who ever does this PM me frist in line for one !!! Duane (RULOOKIN)
maybe jnco or l67 would be interested in doing this???
ill build clutches for them. f23 has a 15/16" input shaft instead of the 282 1" shaft. so it uses a different clutch setup. i have already called and talked/ordered a pressure plate from a very well known major performance pressure plate supplier that builds my pp's for my porsches and ferraris to my specs. i will be testing a f23 with a helical lsd and the custom pressure plates and my kevlar clutches within 2 wks. and when i say test i mean destroy... thats how i test... see exactly how much abuse they will take and by then i find the breaking point. and what is the weak pieces in the system. my mera is sporting a gmpp ZZ430 sbc with mods making it around 480hp at the flywheel and then i have a NOS super shot 150hp on top of that making around 630hp. so when i say test/destroy i mean it.
EDIT; clarification... the 2008-2010 cobalt f23 trans use the 15/16" input shaft, the 2000-2002 cavaliers use a 1" input shaft.
[This message has been edited by mera7 (edited 12-06-2010).]
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04:05 PM
Isolde Member
Posts: 2504 From: North Logan, Utah, USA Registered: May 2008
The clutch doesn't go on any "output shaft", which transaxles don't even have, they go on the input shaft. Things could get confusing if not everyone is sticking to standardized terminology.
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04:37 PM
mera7 Member
Posts: 1355 From: piedmont oklahoma usa Registered: Sep 2009
- Make / modify mounts to fit - Play with / modify brackets for either the Izuzu or Getreg Cables - Some how convert the VSS - Install the Slave modification.
The clutch line adapter can be made for free if you have an old 282 slave laying around, all I did was lop the end off where the clutch line screws in smooth it up a bit stick it over the f23 line flare the line and bam, free and easy took maybe 10 minutes.
As for mounts it was mentioned to maybe modify the getrag mounts, your better off starting from scratch the getrag 282 mounts are no where even remotely the same and will be no less work then starting from scratch, Also not a real difficult thing to fab up, I made mine in a few hours theres quite a few ways you could make them. I was able to use the same rubber portion of the mounts, Mine were the poly ones but position wise that portion was stock, so the actual rubber mount itself is still a stock replacement if I ever were in need.
[This message has been edited by FieroFiend (edited 12-05-2010).]
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06:05 PM
Isolde Member
Posts: 2504 From: North Logan, Utah, USA Registered: May 2008
As for mounts it was mentioned to maybe modify the getrag mounts, your better off starting from scratch the getrag 282 mounts are no where even remotely the same and will be no less work then starting from scratch, Also not a real difficult thing to fab up, I made mine in a few hours theres quite a few ways you could make them. I was able to use the same rubber portion of the mounts, Mine were the poly ones but position wise that portion was stock, so the actual rubber mount itself is still a stock replacement if I ever were in need.
The easiest way I've found to fab up functional prototype mounts is a few pieces of angle iron, a hacksaw, a couple of large vise-grips, an assortment of nuts, bolts & washers, and some drill bits. Initial results tend to be unsightly, but other than that, it's so easy a cave man can do it. If your engine is solid mounted, I'd solid mount the trans. If rubber for the engine, then rubber for the trans. Dodge Ram 360 rubber motor mounts sort of have an interlock, but it's nothing like the Energy Suspension polygraphite GM RWD transmission mount. That's excellent for fabbing mounts.
[This message has been edited by Isolde (edited 12-05-2010).]
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06:53 PM
mera7 Member
Posts: 1355 From: piedmont oklahoma usa Registered: Sep 2009
yes i agree mounts are fairly easy to fab. i own a machine shop and we custom fab most mounts for our custom application scenarios we run across. i have installed ls2 and ls3's into porsches and ferrari's. porsche g5052 getrag gearboxes into all kinds of applications. so on... just takes some time and some work. hey isolde im pretty laid back and usually dont get all ruffled over alot of things. kudos to you too
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07:02 PM
PFF
System Bot
Isolde Member
Posts: 2504 From: North Logan, Utah, USA Registered: May 2008
yes i agree mounts are fairly easy to fab. i own a machine shop and we custom fab most mounts for our custom application scenarios we run across. i have installed ls2 and ls3's into porsches and ferrari's. porsche g5052 getrag gearboxes into all kinds of applications. so on... just takes some time and some work. hey isolde im pretty laid back and usually dont get all ruffled over alot of things. kudos to you too
Since you actually own it, I may have a machining order to place after the ( costly ) holidays. I'll PM.
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07:10 PM
Kento Member
Posts: 4218 From: Beautifull Winston Salem NC Registered: Jun 2003
I was going off of photo's I have saved on my HD. I'm looking at a teardown picture from the 7th of last month. I see at least one Isuzu cable. Both cables appear to be the same from pictures posted on May 19th, 2008.
But I could be wrong of course. Are you saying you used getrag cables at one point in time? Perhaps a different car?
Damn, I've had this trans for quite some time. That probably makes me one of the most longest running F23 swaps on this board. But yes, my setup redesigned using factory cables to make the swap more appealing and simplistic for others to follow in my path. Do you have pics of my trans behind a 2.8 as well? Look closely at the transmission in the pics you're referring to, see anything interesting? A lot has been happening around here with the F23 transmission, and that includes installation to fieros other than my own as well.
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08:04 AM
L67 Member
Posts: 1792 From: Winston Salem, NC Registered: Jun 2010
Originally posted by Jncomutt: That probably makes me one of the longest running F23 swaps on this board. .
I think I established that on page two?
quote
Originally posted by Jncomutt: But yes, my setup redesigned using factory cables to make the swap more appealing and simplistic for others to follow in my path.
I was referencing the red notchie. Now that you've switched to the 80 series, and there are pictures of the F23 coming out of your car with Isuzu cables, I think it's safe to say Isuzu cables can also be made to work. Although I know you had to make several tweaks.
quote
Originally posted by Jncomutt: Do you have pics of my trans behind a 2.8 as well?
No. I assume these are either mock up photo's for a set of mounts you're building, you swapped one into Jason's car, or into a car you bought from Korey. Chances are, these pictures haven't been posted for obvious reasons. I could be wrong, but do you have a link?
quote
Originally posted by Jncomutt: Look closely at the transmission in the pics you're referring to, see anything interesting? A lot has been happening around here with the F23 transmission, and that includes installation to fieros other than my own as well.
I see you changed the end link on the Isuzu cable. If I remember correctly you couldn't get the ball cup to stay on. The steel bracket appears to be unchanged, and the slave connection looks unchanged...
Regardless, each owner who builds a set will design each integral part differently. I would post pictures of your completed swap, but I know this would upset you - given our previous history, so I'm not. I was on the phone with Jon yesterday, and a tow away from taking the 88 GT over there where everything is and mass cookie cutting out a complete kit, but something like that will never be lucrative enough for me, and I can't stand Archie charging a firstborn for a transmission kit so I won't either.
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09:47 AM
Fierobsessed Member
Posts: 4782 From: Las Vegas, NV Registered: Dec 2001
i apologize for not clarifying more... the newest f23's late 2008-2010 use the 15/16" input shaft. likely the 2000-2002 f23's are the ones you are looking at. thanks, mike in oklahoma
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01:13 PM
Fierobsessed Member
Posts: 4782 From: Las Vegas, NV Registered: Dec 2001
That is mostly true. It depends a couple things. There is some information out there in one of these PFF F23 threads about clutches. One of the F23 installs I helped with also had an issue with the HTOB interface to the pressure plate.
The swap is pretty much 'bolt-on' but there are definitely some things you need to check for clearance or you could end up with some interference or a non-working HTOB. I'd hate people to simply just bolt things together and turn the key only to be greeted by a loud grinding sound..
[This message has been edited by Jncomutt (edited 12-06-2010).]
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02:43 PM
Darth Fiero Member
Posts: 5921 From: Waterloo, Indiana Registered: Oct 2002
I guess you're referring to the V8 crank being heavier? True, but it's in close to the center, not way out. With the G6 flywheel, the weight is way out near the starter ring gear. Having the same weight farther out multiplies the inertia. So the V8 combo will have less inertia.
Correct me if I'm wrong but don't the 60 deg V6's only have 4 counterweights on the crank and the LSx V8's have 6? With the addition of 2 extra counterweights, the LSx V8's also have the mass of 2 more connecting rod big ends the V6's don't have. While all this extra hardware isn't as far from the crank centerline as the outermost diameter of the G6's manual transmission flywheel, it still is out some distance from the centerline and I still wonder IF the V8's rotating mass is indeed less than a V6 as you say...??? Can you prove your statement that the V8 combo does have less rotating inertia than the V6 combo?
The jbody guys are using the 2200 SFI clutch and pressure plate kits with the f23 attached to a 3800 in those. Which should give the trans the stack height it wants to have, since the 2200 flywheel is also the standard .840ish from what Ive gathered after having done mine already using fiero hardware. Which should in theory apply to the stock v6 as well, its worked for multiple people out of the box but should be checked regardless.
Also something that has not been mentioned yet is that if you use the stock fiero getrag clutch master you will need some variety of pedal stop or something similar to avoid over extending the HTOB in the f23 which is not cool since the HTOB are not super cheap even for aftermarket but they also dont just go bad either so if you do it right you wont be replacing it any time soon.
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04:43 PM
mera7 Member
Posts: 1355 From: piedmont oklahoma usa Registered: Sep 2009
i purchased a new 2010 cobalt f23 today. i will be running my 2010 cobalt application 2700lb pressure plate and my 2010 cobalt application kevlar clutch and 2010 cobalt htob. i am not going to run the fiero clutch/pressure plate hardware. this is so i dont have problems with interferance issues.
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04:58 PM
Isolde Member
Posts: 2504 From: North Logan, Utah, USA Registered: May 2008
The jbody guys are using the 2200 SFI clutch and pressure plate kits with the f23 attached to a 3800 in those. Which should give the trans the stack height it wants to have, since the 2200 flywheel is also the standard .840ish from what Ive gathered after having done mine already using fiero hardware. Which should in theory apply to the stock v6 as well, its worked for multiple people out of the box but should be checked regardless.
Also something that has not been mentioned yet is that if you use the stock fiero getrag clutch master you will need some variety of pedal stop or something similar to avoid over extending the HTOB in the f23 which is not cool since the HTOB are not super cheap even for aftermarket but they also dont just go bad either so if you do it right you wont be replacing it any time soon.
Alternately, for those who want the pedal action closer to the floorboards, space the clutch master cylinder out, and make the spacer serve double duty as firewall reinforcement. There's plenty of flex there. Darth, I don't have exact numbers on hand, so I can't do the math, but I'll bet cold hard cash that the aluminum flywheel LSx comes out no worse for inertia than a stock '06 G6 GT 3.9 setup.
[This message has been edited by Isolde (edited 12-06-2010).]
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05:40 PM
Fierobsessed Member
Posts: 4782 From: Las Vegas, NV Registered: Dec 2001
Oh man. I tried getting my hands on one today. What a PITA! First one when they pulled it turned out to be an automatic. The tag on it said it was a manual transmission. Second one they pulled turned out to be for the Ecotec, and the shift linkage was busted off the top anyway. It took about 3 hours to get this far. They promised me that they would have the correct one tomorrow morning. We'll see.
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06:46 PM
Darth Fiero Member
Posts: 5921 From: Waterloo, Indiana Registered: Oct 2002
Can you post a better picture of the bellhousing bolt area above what's shown in the picture you posted earlier (see above)? fieroguru has come up with a starter mounting solution for the F40 so it can be used on the LS4, and it looks like this same solution can be used on the F23 from what I'm seeing...
-ryan
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06:48 PM
PFF
System Bot
mera7 Member
Posts: 1355 From: piedmont oklahoma usa Registered: Sep 2009
Oh man. I tried getting my hands on one today. What a PITA! First one when they pulled it turned out to be an automatic. The tag on it said it was a manual transmission. Second one they pulled turned out to be for the Ecotec, and the shift linkage was busted off the top anyway. It took about 3 hours to get this far. They promised me that they would have the correct one tomorrow morning. We'll see.
if they dont come up with one. i purchased a couple of the 2010 cobalt f23's. one used one with 4200 miles for 600.00 and two new ones. the new ones im keeping, installing one with a lsd as is and the 2nd one im tearing down and having it all cryoed and lsd to put a monster ls9 behind it later.
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06:59 PM
Will Member
Posts: 14250 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Correct me if I'm wrong but don't the 60 deg V6's only have 4 counterweights on the crank and the LSx V8's have 6? With the addition of 2 extra counterweights, the LSx V8's also have the mass of 2 more connecting rod big ends the V6's don't have. While all this extra hardware isn't as far from the crank centerline as the outermost diameter of the G6's manual transmission flywheel, it still is out some distance from the centerline and I still wonder IF the V8's rotating mass is indeed less than a V6 as you say...??? Can you prove your statement that the V8 combo does have less rotating inertia than the V6 combo?
Tilton or QuarterMaster have stated that the average Chevy automatic flexplate has the same MOI as a normal Chevy crankshaft.
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11:09 PM
Dec 7th, 2010
Fierobsessed Member
Posts: 4782 From: Las Vegas, NV Registered: Dec 2001
Oh man. I tried getting my hands on one today. What a PITA! First one when they pulled it turned out to be an automatic. The tag on it said it was a manual transmission. Second one they pulled turned out to be for the Ecotec, and the shift linkage was busted off the top anyway. It took about 3 hours to get this far. They promised me that they would have the correct one tomorrow morning. We'll see.
The saga continues... I finally get the correct transmission today. I get home, check it out, and on the sales slip it says: Mileage 212,549. The original one I paid for had 109,383. So I paid for a 109,383 mile one, and got a 212,549 mile one. I called BS on them, and am looking to get yet another exchange. This is getting out of control! I'm pulling out a 233,000 mile transmission, just to stick in a 212,549 mile one. Yeah, Right, Im not ok with that. Not happening.
My favorite part of this, Is when I called BS on them, and then he tells me that those miles are unverified on the transmission, It may be a replacement unit. Yet, the transmission has a vin on it, and the sales slip has the car's vin, which matched. So I called them out on that too. Hopefully another, reasonable mileage unit will come my way. So frustrating!
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01:57 PM
Erik Member
Posts: 5625 From: Des Moines, Iowa Registered: Jul 2002
The saga continues... I finally get the correct transmission today. I get home, check it out, and on the sales slip it says: Mileage 212,549. The original one I paid for had 109,383. So I paid for a 109,383 mile one, and got a 212,549 mile one. I called BS on them, and am looking to get yet another exchange. This is getting out of control! I'm pulling out a 233,000 mile transmission, just to stick in a 212,549 mile one. Yeah, Right, Im not ok with that. Not happening.
My favorite part of this, Is when I called BS on them, and then he tells me that those miles are unverified on the transmission, It may be a replacement unit. Yet, the transmission has a vin on it, and the sales slip has the car's vin, which matched. So I called them out on that too. Hopefully another, reasonable mileage unit will come my way. So frustrating!
Is there any u pullit type yards in your area? I plan on getting mine from one so I can at least check out the car it comes from and attempt to verify the mileage
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04:22 PM
fieroguru Member
Posts: 12304 From: Champaign, IL Registered: Aug 2003
The saga continues... I finally get the correct transmission today. I get home, check it out, and on the sales slip it says: Mileage 212,549. The original one I paid for had 109,383. So I paid for a 109,383 mile one, and got a 212,549 mile one. I called BS on them, and am looking to get yet another exchange. This is getting out of control! I'm pulling out a 233,000 mile transmission, just to stick in a 212,549 mile one. Yeah, Right, Im not ok with that. Not happening.
My favorite part of this, Is when I called BS on them, and then he tells me that those miles are unverified on the transmission, It may be a replacement unit. Yet, the transmission has a vin on it, and the sales slip has the car's vin, which matched. So I called them out on that too. Hopefully another, reasonable mileage unit will come my way. So frustrating!
From the sounds of it, the most important part from the earlier f23 is the 2.2 bellhousing so it can be swapped with the later version with the 3.6x final drive. If that is the case, see how much they will let you keep the bellhousing for and keep it or keep or resell it.
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04:36 PM
Dec 8th, 2010
L67 Member
Posts: 1792 From: Winston Salem, NC Registered: Jun 2010
Agreed on the bellhousing. Sounds like the yard you're using is a nightmare. I only use the local "Pull a Part" because I know exactly what I need and pull only what I want to pay for.
I am not a big stats kind of guy more trial and error makes my desision when buying thing, so that being said i know of a trubo 3.8 cavelier with one of these tranis bolted up to it other than the diff being welded up so ther is no posi any more, i have personaly seen it get the SH&* beat out of it at the track and when i say beat i mean both wheels lit up half track time after time no trani issues at all other than the Cav couldnt hook at the line, it was impresive when my friend was shifting into 3rd still on the motor if it was a smoke show contest he would win (hey joe if your reading remember at the shop LOL)
OH YA!!!! good times......
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07:41 PM
Dec 12th, 2010
mera7 Member
Posts: 1355 From: piedmont oklahoma usa Registered: Sep 2009
This trans is NOT the same one that I used, for the record. My trans case is a completely different design. To others reading this, do not get the two confused.
