I still don't see what everyone has against using an adapter plate. Good used LS4s run $900 more than good used truck-version-5.3s around here, and in the end, the LM7 is no more $ than any SBC, but will offer up more easy power, better driveability and better mileage, all with cleaner emissions and longer engine life. The reason for the F23 is the strength and the cheap LSD, in a cheap, available trans which accepts Fiero axles. That's something worth getting excited about. It's not about the stupid LS4, never was, never will be. This isn't aimed at anyone in particular, either. I'm not bashing the LS4, there's nothing inherently wrong with it. It's not the engine's fault that the dismantlers are over-pricing it.

[This message has been edited by Isolde (edited 12-16-2010).]

isolde.... lol sorry i am still pumped about the f23. sorry my mind wandered off into ls4 land. this thread is still about the f23 trans...

Now Im up to 3 transmissions...
F40: 0 miles new.
F23: 212,000 miles. (ouch)
282: 215,000 miles. (ouch)

Just lining them up for a little situation evaluation. I can tell one thing right off the bat, the F40 is by far, the heaviest.

quote Originally posted by L67: You've got a lot of reading/learning to do. Get to work. Start here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_LS_engine For what it's worth, the most powerful Fiero's are using the turbo 3800 V6. It will take a lot of ingenuity for the LS guys to catch up. It all comes down to preference.

Meh, LSx just means $$x when comparing to a 3800.... There is a way to do everything, none of it is cheap.

Mera7, I'm glad you are excited enough to be looking into the possibilities. Thanks for sharing what you're trying.
If OBX will do a $300 LSD for the F40, then I'll have reason to go into debt. I hated to sell my F40, and regretted it right up until I found out about the OBX LSD for the F23.
Sure, an LS4 will run more $ than an L36, but an LM7 can make the same power just as cheap as an L67. Give the LM7 an F40, and the L67 an F23, the MPG will be a wash, too. The differences remaining are sound, which means nothing, plus weight, and traction on a half-frozen driveway like mine.
Just yesterday I had to use the landlord's big yellow tractor to get my car up said half-frozen driveway, my daily driver does not have an LSD. Yet. I've bought one, but it needs the Ford Racing overhaul kit for $70, and a warm day to "git-r-dun" :-)
Anyway, I'm happily locked into a 5 year rental contract, so now you know why I NEED LSD!.

The OBX unit is not the best piece right out of the box. Isolde, with a little bit of time you can make it a lot better.

jnco how do we make the obx better for the f23? please tell.

quote Originally posted by L67: Oh we got jokes. We all make mistakes right? The TDC was a misinformed mistake, made many years ago. The 2.0 I can't get enough of, and was smart investment decision. Like I said, it all comes down to preference.

How was the TDC a mistake? It's hopelessly over weight and overly complex but I love the thing.

quote Originally posted by Jncomutt: I'm excited for the next person do this. I've already helped one other person with a 3800SC do the F23 swap, and I know of a TURBO 3.8L that ran a F23 with great success with plenty of track time. Neither F23 has failed. I really hope someone else beats the hell out of their F23 and reports back, almost in a sort of "ah ha!" kinda way.. lol

Since everything I read in this thread (so far) indicates it's considerably cheaper to do than the F40 - even after an LSD and a cryo-treatment.. hell, I'll stick it behind my V8 and see what happens. I'll be pestering people with questions... and trying to find someone that can do the actual labor. lol


****For those who were talking about LSD systems - Quaife makes one for this transmission. It's not cheap, but it's a gear-operated LSD (like the "worm gear" Gleason/Torsen, apologizes for any misspellings), so in my book it's worth the cost.

**** I could be wrong about the above being an option. Looks like it might be for the "Wrong" bellhousing. I'll have to email them and ask.

[This message has been edited by Trinten (edited 12-16-2010).]

quote Originally posted by mattwa: How was the TDC a mistake? It's hopelessly over weight and overly complex but I love the thing.

I said the same thing when it was sitting on an engine stand, like yours. That's a conversation for a different thread.

quote Originally posted by FieroFiend: Im not sure why you need more pics (which google would be happy to provide Im sure) It can be done in about 1000 ways its not like your going to fab the mounts then get the trans... get a trans then fab the mounts, they are about as easy as it gets to make all you need to make is the mount to trans metal bracket the stock getrag rubber mount portions can be reused, or poly if thats your bag. All youll need to make is a bracket no rubber or anything involved unless your not interested in keeping the stock mount portion. Seems you may be overthinking it is all Im getting at. Also mines an 88 so the cradle isnt an issue.

You obviously don't have any clue why im asking. My cradle has been modified to fit the 282 and new mounts created for the trans. They are hardmounted to the cradle which has been powdercoated already. I just wanted to see the F23 trans from this area to see how much differant the trans case is from the 282, to see if maybe I would get lucky and the F23 has similar holes.





No big deal. I will have one this spring/summer to work with, I just wanted to lookover the pictures and plan it out. Thanks for telling me how to do this. Cause I had no idea how. *******.

[This message has been edited by qwikgta (edited 12-16-2010).]

If I was you, I'd lop that mount off and build a better set of mounts that will include something to absorb 350+ ft lb of torque. I imagine that 282 case would fatigue fail from shock loading if you ever so much as dumped the clutch once.

[This message has been edited by L67 (edited 12-16-2010).]

I can't leave well enough alone. Transaxles still intimidate me, but differentials, I'm comfy with disassembling one, and hand-deburring all the pieces.
I'd rather just do that to the OBX, than any of the alternatives.
I hope OBX soon offers their LSD for every single application that Quaife covers, teach those Quaife people about fair market value. Yes, Quaife adds a clutch feature, IIRC, and that's nifty, but it's not 5-times-the-price nifty.
If I do kill an F23 with an OBX, I'll try again with everything cryo'ed before trying the NSX 5-speed.

quote Originally posted by Isolde: but differentials, I'm comfy with disassembling one, and hand-deburring all the pieces.

Yes, you're on the right track. You need to debur, look for stress risers, check the clearances, bolt quality, etc. The metal is somewhat cheap on the one that I handled, but it can do really well for what it is, and what it costs, with some minor effort.

quote Originally posted by Isolde: I hope OBX soon offers their LSD for every single application that Quaife covers, teach those Quaife people about fair market value. Yes, Quaife adds a clutch feature, IIRC, and that's nifty, but it's not 5-times-the-price nifty.

OBX is Chinese made, right? You do realize that the Chinese don't care about intellectual property, patent or trademark infringement, don't you? You do realize that the Chinese government *deliberately* holds the value of the Chinese currency low (it's pegged as a fraction of the dollar) in order to specifically undercut the prices of products manufactured elsewhere in the world, don't you? (and that if the value of the currency were allowed to adjust, their products would have much higher prices; I.E. they're not playing fair).

And on the other side of the coin, do you have any understanding of an "all-in" labor rate? Overhead? R&D? Repayment interval for capital purchases?

Your continued decrying of the prices of high quality products because you think you can make *one* more cheaply than the manufacturer does simply comes across as naive... If you think you can price it better, then go do the design work to a high standard of engineering, buy the equipment to produce it efficiently at volume, put in the time at the bottom of the market to establish yourself in the market, build a few thousand of them, pay for R&D of the next product you'd better bring to market when the Chinese copy yours and undercut your price, and then do it all over again for your next generation of product and THEN tell me how cheap and easy it is to make. and OBTW, turn a 5% profit while you're at it AND have enough money in the bank to make it through a couple of down years in the world economy.

And don't even think about building anything for aerospace.

I know you're smart enough to understand these aspects of business... do you chose to ignore them?

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 12-16-2010).]

Will,
I do get angry about the Chinese-labor businesses ripping off American R&D without reimbursing the source, such as Prof. Prod. ripping Edelbrock's intake manifolds, and I always look for an American option. Not just made in USA, but an American-owned company that produces in the USA. So I won't buy Prof. Prod. I will and do pay extra for genuine Edelbrock.
For example, look at tires. Firestone is an American company, but only their new Precision Sport tires are American made. I won't buy Firestone, because they gave away American jobs.
Look at Yokohama. They're clearly Japanese, but their S.drive tires are made in the USA. The problem here is that the profit goes to Japan, and the only way it comes back is if Japan buys something American. Still doesn't benefit you or me. So I won't buy Yokohama.
But I've contacted American differential manufacturers, such as Eaton and Auburn Gear, none are willing to produce any LSD for any Fiero transaxle, at any price. That leaves only 2 imports. Quaife or OBX. And I'm not racist, the poor Chinese laborers are not to blame, and their standard of living is way below that of any Quaife employee.
Any patent on helical LSDs expired long ago, as evidenced by both Zexel and Dyneer ( TrueTrac ) manufacturing them. That gives OBX legal right to make their own.
OBX isn't copying Quaife, but if you want to pay 5 times the price, you have that right. I won't understand it, but I don't have to.

[This message has been edited by Isolde (edited 12-17-2010).]

BASICALLY... IF WE DONT MAKE IT IN THE USA.. THEN WE DONT NEED IT. AND IF WE NEED IT AND DONT MAKE IT. WE NEED TO START. LETS REBUILD THE AMERICAN ECONOMY TOGETHER.... NO EXCUSES...

Yeah... just look at the part origination, guys... never mind the folks in the distribution or retail channels of these products that you boycott... You are killing jobs by blindly boycotting anything. My guess is that no one here really knows how much Chinese stuff they buy.

The Law of Unintended Consequences rules all.

[This message has been edited by carbon (edited 12-17-2010).]

Your point is only half valid. If these middle-men operations only carried American-made goods, they'd still need employees. The Ocean freighters aren't American-crewed, either.
Many of us feel we can't afford to buy American, and we don't want the few American billionaires getting any wealthier at our expense. Nor do we want, for made up example, BFGoodrich's laborers getting another $10 an hour more than we are making.
I understand these sentiments, but the only way to maintain our standard of living is to export more than we import. Difficult to do when foreign laborers are willing to work for less.
We can't affort to buy imports, however many dollars it might seem to save us on any particular item.
A protectionist trade policy doesn't work, and it's easy for people to rationalize that they're only one among 300 million.
But it has to start somewhere. I check the manufacturer and production of everything I buy. Some things aren't available the way I'd prefer, but at least I do my best.
Why? Because I'm as selfish and greedy as everyone else.
Our fathers did their best to get us here, we can't rest on their laurels just to save $1.49 on this little item, and $24.79 on that other thing.
Carbon, we need what we need. Same quantity, regardless of source. Every job lost due to boycotting imports gets replaced with a new job with the domestic alternative. Let's go back to tires. If all 300 million of us boycotted all import tires, then BFGoodrich and Goodyear, et cetera, would experience dramatic increase in market share, and need many new employees. It balances out.
The only way to overcome the trade-price issue is with better product. People will pay more to get the best.

[This message has been edited by Isolde (edited 12-17-2010).]

Ok, less politics, more 5-speed transmission talk. Thanks.

If China competed on the same footing as everyone else, things wouldn't be so bad. What really galls me is that they have adopted a currency policy that deliberately and "artificially" makes them more competitive than they should be, were their currency value allowed to float like other currencies in the world. The wealth of China as a nation has risen tremendously. If their currency were competitively priced, then the value of their currency would have risen as well and their products wouldn't be as "cheap" in other parts of the world.

IE, they are waging deliberate economic war on us (and the rest of the world, really).

quote Originally posted by mattwa: Ok, less politics, more 5-speed transmission talk. Thanks.

It's not politics, it's currency. Politics is useless blowhards talking about things they don't want to admit they don't understand. Currency is the foundation of civilization.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 12-17-2010).]

quote Originally posted by Will: It's not politics, it's currency.

It doesn't matter what it is, its not tech talk. You two go talk about it in OT or something.

quote Originally posted by qwikgta: You obviously don't have any clue why im asking. My cradle has been modified to fit the 282 and new mounts created for the trans. They are hardmounted to the cradle which has been powdercoated already. I just wanted to see the F23 trans from this area to see how much differant the trans case is from the 282, to see if maybe I would get lucky and the F23 has similar holes. No big deal. I will have one this spring/summer to work with, I just wanted to lookover the pictures and plan it out. Thanks for telling me how to do this. Cause I had no idea how. *******.

This wasnt a gross over reaction at all... But you made me laugh atleast.

So when will one of you make mounts for the F23 so we can spend our money on an American Product?

quote Originally posted by FieroFiend: This wasnt a gross over reaction at all... But you made me laugh atleast.

No it was, i tend to type first and think later. I also open my big mouth a lot with out thinking, and when I was younger, it would get me in trouble.

I've been doing gearing research on this transmission.
Most have the same gear ratios, but there is a lot of variances found in the final drive ratios:
3.63 found in 09-10 Cobalt XFE's http://archives.media.gm.co...ives/2009Cobalt.html
3.74 is found in 08 cobalt XFE's http://archives.media.gm.co.../docId_47576_pr.html
3.84 is standard equipment for Cobalt's as far as I can tell. http://archives.media.gm.co...ives/2009Cobalt.html
3.94 can be found on the sunfires and cavaliers. http://archives.media.gm.co...01cavalier/specs.htm
4.17 can be found on 2011 HHR's http://media.gm.com/media/u..._chevrolet.tab1.html
4.41 can be found on the 04 Vue. Listed as the MG3 http://archives.media.gm.co...prodinfo/saturn/vue/

1st 3.58
2nd 2.02
3rd 1.35
4th 0.98
5th 0.69

MG3's got a 0.81 5th.

Personally, the 3.63 -3.74's sounds like the only reasonable ratios. So, if you happen to see a cobalt XFE transmission... Grab it for its gears.

Edited to add sources.

[This message has been edited by Fierobsessed (edited 12-18-2010).]

What are your sources for this info? GM Powertrain has zero listings for F23 R&P ratios.

quote Originally posted by Fierobsessed: I've been doing gearing research on this transmission. Most have the same gear ratios, but there is a lot of variances found in the final drive ratios: 3.63 found in 09-10 Cobalt XFE's 3.74 is found in 08 cobalt XFE's 3.84 is standard equipment for Cobalt's as far as I can tell. 3.94 can be found on the sunfires and cavaliers. 4.17 can be found on 2011 HHR's 4.41 can be found on the 04 Vue. Listed as the MG3 1st 3.58 2nd 2.02 3rd 1.35 4th 0.98 5th 0.69 MG3's got a 0.81 5th. Personally, the 3.63 -3.74's sounds like the only reasonable ratios. So, if you happen to see a cobalt XFE transmission... Grab it for its gears.

I bought 2 2010 COBALT F23'S with the 3.63 final ratio, and 1 2002 cavalier f23 for the bellhousing.

I broke out the scale for fun...

Getrag 282 93.2 Lbs.
Getrag F23 96.8 Lbs.
6 speed F40 116.6 Lbs.

Just FYI, all transmissions were dry, and free of bracketry except for the equivalent linkage.
And complete clutch actuators (throw out bearings + hydraulics).

Im working on a template for the transmissions mounting now...
I'm still not sure If I'm going to go with the F40 or the F23 in my 88 GT 3.4 DOHC. The F23 needs to be gutted and rebuilt with better gearing, and the F40 needs a clutch to go with it. I think the F40 is winning this battle.

quote Originally posted by GeMs: So when will one of you make mounts for the F23 so we can spend our money on an American Product?

jnco and l67 brought this to light so maybe one of them would like to make them and or profit from them. thats my .02

F40 with the TDC 3.4 is a recipe for useless sixth gear. The cruise rpm would be too low for the engine, you'll probably have noticeable surging. Delaying the exhaust cams 13 degrees would help, and is a common mod. Shaving the heads 0.030" would also help, since the static compression in these engines is shockingly low.

[This message has been edited by Isolde (edited 12-20-2010).]

quote Originally posted by Isolde: F40 with the TDC 3.4 is a recipe for useless sixth gear.

Actually, I think its a perfect combination.
at 65, I'll normally be at around 2350 RPM, this will drop me back to just under 2000. I've always felt that it needed a taller gear to get the engines RPM's low enough to get good economy, as it is, the original top gear final gearing for this engine was at 2.43 with an automatic on a very big, heavy car. I've been running 2.60 for the past few years. The F40 is 2.20. which is usable if the car is aerodynamic and light. The good news is the engine is capable of producing 85% of peak torque at 2000. The 3.4 DOHC has NEVER seen this kind of gearing before, so it will be an experiment. Either way, If I don't like it, ill just transplant it to my 3800 project.

ok ive got a line on a 2002 cavi standard. hopefully i get money for x mass. is the f23 the only trans that came in that or can i get a pic of the markings

quote Originally posted by lonewolf_305: ok ive got a line on a 2002 cavi standard. hopefully i get money for x mass. is the f23 the only trans that came in that or can i get a pic of the markings

Yes, the F23 is only manual alternative offered that year, but remember we've already discussed the different bell housings. Be sure its a 2200 series engine.

quote Originally posted by mera7: jnco and l67 brought this to light so maybe one of them would like to make them and or profit from them. thats my .02

I can't remember which forum I responded to this earlier on. I'm not interested, I've got other things going on. I've since talked to John, and he also mentioned he wasn't interested in building a kit, but I don't want to speak for him. Building mounts isn't rocket science. However I do recommend a better design implementation than what it pictured above on that LS3 - something with triangulation and boxed in. This is too simple a swap for anyone to need a "kit". Be sure you've got the correct clearances with the pressure plate and bellhousing dish, other than that it's pretty straight forward.

quote Originally posted by Fierobsessed: Actually, I think its a perfect combination. at 65, I'll normally be at around 2350 RPM, this will drop me back to just under 2000. I've always felt that it needed a taller gear to get the engines RPM's low enough to get good economy, as it is, the original top gear final gearing for this engine was at 2.43 with an automatic on a very big, heavy car. I've been running 2.60 for the past few years. The F40 is 2.20. which is usable if the car is aerodynamic and light. The good news is the engine is capable of producing 85% of peak torque at 2000. The 3.4 DOHC has NEVER seen this kind of gearing before, so it will be an experiment. Either way, If I don't like it, ill just transplant it to my 3800 project.

It will be great if it works out the way you hope, and admittedly, I've never played with that engine, but every other GM engine I ever have played with had a point of no return. You gear them too tall, mpg suffers. Yes, they can all drive with a taller gear than the gear which gives best mpg, and in many cases, GM used the tallest gearing that wouldn't "lug" or "surge" at cruise. I wish you no ill, but I honestly believe your average mpg will not improve. I'll be eager to read the results either way.

quote Originally posted by Isolde: It will be great if it works out the way you hope, and admittedly, I've never played with that engine, but every other GM engine I ever have played with had a point of no return. You gear them too tall, mpg suffers. Yes, they can all drive with a taller gear than the gear which gives best mpg, and in many cases, GM used the tallest gearing that wouldn't "lug" or "surge" at cruise. I wish you no ill, but I honestly believe your average mpg will not improve. I'll be eager to read the results either way.

If your cruise gear is so tall that you need to open the throttle far enough to get into power enrichment (AFR drops from 14.7 to 12ish), then fuel economy will suffer.

But isn't an engine most efficient at low rpm, high throttle, w/o going into PE.

So if you get the 09-10 XFE trans and swap the bellhousing on it, could you use the Thelin 5 speed shift adapter and mounts? Or does the ecotec use a different tranny.

quote Originally posted by Jncomutt: But isn't an engine most efficient at low rpm, high throttle, w/o going into PE.

Key words being *without power enrichment*, but yes.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 12-21-2010).]