http://60degreev6.com/forum...Prix-GTP-5-speed-600

Saw this in the Mall, i have one a s a spare trani for my 3800sc if my 282 blows up , this trani bolts right up to 3800sc 2.8 or 3.4 only mods are it has internal push releace through beraing which rodney dickman has the bracket for, for all you 5 speed lovers and can handle way more HP than fiero getrag, if i am not mistaken they used these tranis on the 5 speed 3800sc GTP very rare

I am pretty sure that Rodney has stated that the 284 that comes with the DOHC motor will not work with his stuff... it is not a 282.

The 284 is stronger and different geared but it did not come with a 3800 SC but rather came with a 3.4 DOHC in 91-93 manual equipped W bodys and yes, it is rare and it uses a pull type pressure plate. You will have to mod the shift linkage to work with the Fiero shifter

[This message has been edited by Erik (edited 12-02-2010).]

Or just buy a 287, which is MUCH stronger, better built, and extremely common.

quote Originally posted by L67: Or just buy a 287, which is MUCH stronger, better built, and extremely common.

What does the HM-287 come in? What changes does it need to work?

quote Originally posted by Formula88: What does the HM-287 come in? What changes does it need to work?

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/083471.html

Oh man... Wish I had the funds to pick that up and fix it... I'd love that car as-is.

quote Originally posted by L67: Or just buy a 287, which is MUCH stronger, better built, and extremely common.

Oh yes, the 2.2 Cavalier transmission, so MUCH MUCH stronger. Tell me, how much larger are the bearings in the case? How much larger are the gears? Do we have the results of some conclusive test which was conducted under controlled conditions?

Are you really ok with spreading unsubstantiated rumors?

I suppose you could say "I heard so-and-so runs one with a 600hp 3800 and it hasn't broken, so its the best thing EVER!"
The problem is, I can find Isuzus behind SBCs that haven't failed, so by that argument I could say, its SOOOO MUCH MUCH STRONGER than any crummy old 282, 284, or NVG-T550.

I'd be wrong.

[This message has been edited by KurtAKX (edited 12-02-2010).]

quote Originally posted by KurtAKX: How much larger are the gears?

Continue?

quote Originally posted by L67: Being you brought up Isuzu, lets compare:

Is the stripped gear 2nd gear?
My dad installed an Isuzu next to his 3.4PR, and 2nd gear is dead. You can shift into it but it grinds most of the time when you release the clutch. But some-times, not often, you can get 2nd to work after a little grinding. Is this what happened?

Sorry if its slightly off topic.

Yes, that's second. This is pretty much always the failure point. In early days of my time spent with Johnny, he would always shift from first to third simply to avoid using second gear - I believe he was on his 3rd. I've never owned an Isuzu. I can only assume as to the state of your fathers transmission, but if I had to make an educated guess, it sounds like his second gear is on the way out. I got the picture from my friend Steven Snyder's pbase. An intellegent conversation about the failure can be found here: DOHC: 1, Isuzu: 0 -- Getrag swap!

[This message has been edited by L67 (edited 12-02-2010).]

hello all, after reading this thread and then going to bing for some research it shows the f23 287 getrag is rated at 170ft lbs of torque. and the 282 fiero getrag is rated at 155ft lbs of torque. im not sure how much difference 15ft lbs of torque makes. is the difference in torque to cost ratio of this conversion/installation worth it? by the way im all for a stronger getrag. i currently have a fiero case 282 and gear set, H.O. QUAD 4 carrier and spider gears, ep lsd, and all parts are 300 below cryo'd. but this was expensive to do. i am running a ZZ430 with mods sbc. so stronger trans is always interesting but is it that much stronger? and if so at what cost? specifically what cars did this f23 come in? example... 2002 cavalier or something like that? thank you all for your time and answers in advance.

I am not a big stats kind of guy more trial and error makes my desision when buying thing, so that being said i know of a trubo 3.8 cavelier with one of these tranis bolted up to it other than the diff being welded up so ther is no posi any more, i have personaly seen it get the SH&* beat out of it at the track and when i say beat i mean both wheels lit up half track time after time no trani issues at all other than the Cav couldnt hook at the line, it was impresive when my friend was shifting into 3rd still on the motor if it was a smoke show contest he would win (hey joe if your reading remember at the shop LOL)

quote Originally posted by mera7: hello all, after reading this thread and then going to bing for some research it shows the f23 287 getrag is rated at 170ft lbs of torque. a .

I blame Jimmy Carter for this lack of info... the F23 is rated for 230 Newton-meters which everyone in the rest of the world understands is 170 ft-lbs

So it becomes obvious to us then that the F40 is rated for 400 Newton-meters or 295 ft-lbs. Which is why the F40 is the strongest Fiero bolt pattern manual transverse transmission that is commonly available.

There are plenty of them bolted up to V8s and some have even been dyno'd and to my understanding none have broken so far.

GM very often rates its manual transmissions in correspondence with the strongest engine that it's matched to in production. Being the F23 was only mated to a low output 4 cylinder engines, where the transmissions' actual torque rating lies is unknown. The same can be said for the 282, it's rated quite low, but is used very successfully behind many of the medium output cars on this forum (250-400wtq). There are even examples of success mated to higher output engines, such as Justin's 3800 turbo car running an 11.5 quarter and Matt Hawkins breaking into the 11's with his 3.4 DOHC. The 287's gears are much wider than the 282's. John (a mechanical engineer) explained to me in detail the exponential strength that width adds to gears. Three shaft transmissions are also stronger than two shaft. But lets forget about all that, and hypothetically assume both transmissions are completely identical. The 287 is going to give a much smoother characteristic (it's been compared to being the same if not better than the Isuzu characteristics), and most importantly the benefits of modern technology implemented in a 5 speed transverse transaxle almost identitical to the Fiero's original equipement.

quote GM technical specification on the F23: Released 2006 The Getrag F23 is a three-axis conventional transverse 5-speed manual transaxle with fully synchronized reverse gear. It features compact packaging, broad low-torque applications, and reliable operation. The F23 has two gearsets on each of three parallel shafts – the input shaft, the output shaft, and the intermediate shaft. This three-shaft (also called three-axis) design results in a very short axial length for better packaging. There are three separate shift fork shafts, which hold three shift forks to activate the synchronizer rings for the two gearsets on each of the three gear shafts. The shift forks are activated by a cable system. The clutch release bearing is operated by a concentric slave cylinder that surrounds the input shaft in the clutch housing. A concentric slave cylinder allows more linear clutch feel than an external lever-actuated clutch and release bearing. The input shaft carries the 3rd and 4th gear synchronizer, the intermediate shaft carries the 1st and 2nd gear synchronizer, and the output shaft carries the 5th and reverse gear synchronizer. The aluminum case contains a conventional final drive gearset. There are sintered bronze double-cone blocker rings on the synchronizers for 1st and 2nd gears, while 3rd and 4th gears use carbon fiber blocker rings, and 5th and Reverse gears use molybdenum on their synchronizers. Carbon and molybdenum are extremely durable friction surfaces that remain stable even under extreme heat.

Reversed is synchro'd, so no more crunching when shifting my nicely built and presented Fiero into reverse. And smooth shifting, something completely uncharacteristic of the "notchy" getrag.

However, in an ideal world, we can only put 170ft lb of torque through one before it becomes unreliable. Not really, empirical data says otherwise.

Oh by the way i am running a FWD trani getrag out of a cav for now as you can see it has a different slave set up and i bought the shift kit to convert FWD no biggie Rodney has the parts,

quote Originally posted by L67: GM very often rates its manual transmissions in correspondence with the strongest engine that it's matched to in production. Being the F23 was only mated to a low output 4 cylinder engines, where the transmissions' actual torque rating lies is unknown.

I'm sure you were typing your response while I posted my comment. But why would anyone choose the F23 when the much stronger F40 is available and has an extra overdrive gear as a bonus?

quote Originally posted by jscott1: But why would anyone choose the F23 when the much stronger F40 is available and has an extra overdrive gear as a bonus?

Being you're addressing me directly. What's the faster quarter mile car you know of that's equipped with an F40?

ok so what im seeing here is that the trans behind a 2.2 can handel a beating from a powerfull engine. i plan on doing a sc3800 and was stering away from a stick because i love to beat the heck out of my cars, but i also hate auto. if i can go with a stick and get away with it i would love to.

Well if your answer is that the F23 is faster in the quarter then that's a fair answer.

I personally am one of those guys that drives his V8 powered Fiero like an old lady to church so I don't care about 1/4 times. But I know that my F40 is certified to hold the torque my engine is putting out.

If I were into drag racing I wouldn't be doing it in a manual, and probably not in a Fiero either.

But the OP was looking for a strong transmission to bolt to his 3800 and it seem disingenuous to ignore the F40 which is rated at almost twice the torque of the F23.

[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 12-02-2010).]

quote Originally posted by lonewolf_305: ok so what im seeing here is that the trans behind a 2.2 can handel a beating from a powerfull engine. i plan on doing a sc3800 and was stering away from a stick because i love to beat the heck out of my cars, but i also hate auto. if i can go with a stick and get away with it i would love to.

Hey do keep in mind the specific car i was speaking of had a welded diff which eliminates spider bearing and the car turned corners like SHI* but it was a front wheel drive car this is why i sugested a LSD,
AS for the F40 6 speed lovers, you could buy a used 287,LSD and have it all cryoed for less , but even then it can still break ask California Kid

quote Originally posted by RULOOKIN: AS for the F40 6 speed lovers, you could buy a used 287,LSD and have it all cryoed for less , but even then it can still break ask California Kid

I don't exactly love the F40, but in my opinion it's the lesser of evils out there. You can buy them all day long off eBay delivered to your door for $400. If you break it then it's no big deal. The ratios suck, but as I said I don't drag race so it's fine for me.

The 287 can literally take anything you can throw at it with a 3800 using an M90. You're torque ceiling will be at 400wtq, this is a walk in the park. When John was making 350wtq with the M90, he used to put the car sideways every time I rode with him. Clutch dumps, burnouts, hard launches, you name it. Finding a clutch or axle that won't break will be your obstacle to overcome, not the transmission.

John deleted all of his posts and information, and even began misleading people who would ask questions, because of posts like Jscott's above. Some people refuse to believe, and it's no surprise they're not the ones with record breaking cars. John used to get angry with me when I would try to help people with information pertaining to this swap. Now that he's gone to an automatic, I don't think he'll mind as much. The secrets out, and I'm not deleting posts this go round.

An excerpt from RFT specifially for you lonewolf:

quote Originally posted by JncomuttI'm no longer serious about anything with the manual. I was willing to give it a chance and that's what I did. No one else out there wanted to take the high hp 3800 route with a manual and so I figured I might as well. In my opinion, I proved that you can have a daily driven, streetable, 3800 fiero 5speed. If anyone thinks I drive my car easy or that I baby it, they're crazy. I have beat the living hell out of this clutch and 5 speed and I still drive it to class. It has seen plenty of 2nd gear clutch dumps, drag strip passes, street 'ahem' pulls next to other cars, etc. This setup works. The gear ratios suck, but I think that's part of why it's lasted. If someone wanted to do a 3800 5-speed, buy a good clutch, and drive it. There should be no problems. I feel that I'm makin more power than most guys would be making with a M90 so my issues should be non-existent in those setups. I have an auto, and now I'm going to try to be 'quick' rather than fast. There are a few track days left and I'm going to attend them prepared to break the trans. I haven't blown a diff, stripped 2nd gear,etc in well over 2 YEARS now. It is time to put some heat in these Mickey Thompsons and see what it will REALLY hold.

quote Originally posted by L67: John deleted all of his posts and information, and even began misleading people who would ask questions, because of posts like Jscott's above. Some people refuse to believe, and it's no surprise they're not the ones with record breaking cars. John used to get angry with me when I would try to help people with information pertaining to this swap. Now that he's gone to an automatic, I don't think he'll mind as much. The secrets out, and I'm not deleting posts this go round.

If you note, I never disputed that the F23 is stronger than it's rating or that it can handle a lot of torque. All manuals can handle more than their rating... it's called margin, and all manufactures have margin in their design to keep warranty claims down.

I merely am pointing out that the F40 is rated nearly twice as high. By your logic the F40 should be much stronger than it's rating as well. Troy has an LS7 bolted to an F40. That engine makes insane torque (475 ft-lbs) and I'm sure he babies it, but it hasn't broken yet.

For someone looking for the strongest manual, I would suggest the one rated the highest. That's my only point.

[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 12-02-2010).]

quote Originally posted by jscott1: Well if your answer is that the F23 is faster in the quarter then that's a fair answer. I personally am one of those guys that drives his V8 powered Fiero like an old lady to church so I don't care about 1/4 times. But I know that my F40 is certified to hold the torque my engine is putting out. If I were into drag racing I wouldn't be doing it in a manual, and probably not in a Fiero either. But the OP was looking for a strong transmission to bolt to his 3800 and it seem disingenuous to ignore the F40 which is rated at almost twice the torque of the F23.

There's your answer. You're drawing a conclusion from the torque specs offered from GM. Being you don't actually "drive" your car as I intend to, you'll have the luxury of pretending/believing/espousing you've got the better transmission, and for all attempts and purposes you'll never know. If you drive you car like a little old lady then this conversation is completely moot to you, install an Isuzu, who cares.

The title of this thread has "5 speed" in it. Not, "HD manual transmission will bolt to any 60* motor (3800 2.8 3.4)". Offerening up 4 speed and 6 speed variations never came to mind, so I don't see it as disingenuous on my part at all. But good for you offering up alternatives. The F40 is an alternative. You asked my opinion why anyone would choose and F23 of an F40, here it is; the F40 is a 4 speed transmission with double overdrives and a worthless 1st gear. I believe the 284 would probably be a much sportier transmission - sportier being subjective for those of us who drive hard. The F40 is an excellent choice if you like to shift and clutch a lot. It's also expensive - not that I'm cheap, but I don't like throwing money away.

I plan on drag racing my Fiero. When you find an F40 that's in a car that runs a decent time let me know. The F23 will hold 500+ wheel torque, that's a lot of torque, more than the torque rating of the F40. It's also cheap, and better geared. But you can continue to tell people your transmission's better on paper.

quote Originally posted by L67: What's Troy run in the quarter? John's engine makes more torque.

see PM.... I'm done talking

Someone else PM'd me to ask if I would make the point that you can install 6 F23's for the price of a single F40 install. I think I already made that point, but here you go.

RULOOKIN - Sorry for muddying up your thread with talk of a 6 speed. I thought you might find it interesting, but L67 seems to know everything so I'm done. Thanks.

quote Originally posted by jscott1: But why would anyone choose the F23 when the much stronger F40 is available and has an extra overdrive gear as a bonus?

Hahaha, I love this thread. Don't bother using an off-the-shelf clutch, your existing axles, your existing shifter assembly, your existing shift cables, etc??? Makes no sense to me either. The F40 is clearly the better trans in every aspect including torque capacity, ease of installation and cost.

I wish my car was together so I could give anyone the chance to try to break the F23. I had 255/50/16 Mickey Thompsons on the car, daily drove it with them, and it just would 'not' break. Finally, when I thought it broke, it was actually just the flywheel bolts.. Believe me, I "TRIED" to break it. I had the auto and all the stuff for it, and I was hoping to go out in glory. Instead, the trans had all the glory.

I'm not saying its the best thing out there, or that everyone should do it. It could be a fluke thing that mine lasted. Maybe I somehow got some factory freak F23, who knows. Pretty much everything L67 is right, I used to toot the F23 and people kept telling me to stop with the false crap, or that it wouldn't work, "when it was in my car."

quote Originally posted by jscott1: Troy has an LS7 bolted to an F40. That engine makes insane torque (475 ft-lbs) and I'm sure he babies it, but it hasn't broken yet.

Insane torque! I mean, 500ft-lbs flat across the rpm range 'to the wheels' is childs play in comparison. BTW, that was on a dyno-dynamics, not some inflated dynojet.

[This message has been edited by Jncomutt (edited 12-02-2010).]

GM says its stronger, therefor it is!

GM also said they were the best automaker in the world... and they went bankrupt...

quote Originally posted by jscott1: but L67 seems to know everything so I'm done. Thanks.

Sorry to upset you, but I'm simply trying to lead an informed discussion. Thank you for pm'ing me, I really enjoyed reading about it. I just thought I would reply to it here rather than PM you back.

Jscott1 no problem !! this is a good thread and it will bring out the people who have tried different combs, i personal drove Chucks wide body V8 6 speed but i didnt beat on it, i just thought this might help some of us with that dreaded thought of a blown trani,with other options and as we can see there are a few, my trani may blow or may not time will tell but atleast there are alternatives, and staying 5 speed,

quote Originally posted by Jncomutt: Hahaha, I love this thread. Don't bother using an off-the-shelf clutch, your existing axles, your existing shifter assembly, your existing shift cables, etc??? Makes no sense to me either. The F40 is clearly the better trans in every aspect including torque capacity, ease of installation and cost.

Okay I know I said I was done, with the OP's permission let me address this one last point. I converted my car from 3 speed auto to the F40....

So I needed all those parts anyway.

My clutch is a regular ole Spec stage 3, nothing exotic. Shifter? It's just a 4 speed Muncie, I got on eBay for about $10. Cables? Just Getrag select cables. The parts to do an F40 are not that expensive if you source out the parts yourself.

quote Originally posted by jscott1: Okay I know I said I was done, with the OP's permission let me address this one last point. I converted my car from 3 speed auto to the F40.... So I needed all those parts anyway. My clutch is a regular ole Spec stage 3, nothing exotic. Shifter? It's just a 4 speed Muncie, I got on eBay for about $10. Cables? Just Getrag select cables. The parts to do an F40 are not that expensive if you source out the parts yourself.

God I wish that were true. Didn't Archie do yours though? If he didn't I apologize, I just thought he had. I REALLY wanted to do a F40, but the $3k for just the kit (no transmission) was cost prohibitive for me.

quote Originally posted by mptighe: God I wish that were true. Didn't Archie do yours though? If he didn't I apologize, I just thought he had. I REALLY wanted to do a F40, but the $3k for just the kit (no transmission) was cost prohibitive for me.

Yes he did. But I showed up with a crate full of parts that I sourced out including the transmission and he supplied the rest and did the labor. Like I said, my car was converted from an auto which is a lot of parts and labor regardless of the choice tranny so for me the cost difference for me would have been trivial.

For someone that blows out their 282 and wants to convert to the F23...yeah that's going to be cheaper no doubt.

quote Originally posted by jscott1: ...yeah that's going to be cheaper no doubt.

Faster also.

More information from RFT, gear ratio comparisons:

quote It just so happens I have a comparison between the F23 and F40 pulled up in my other tab: code: Early F40 F23 282(MG2) 1-3.77 1-3.58 1-3.50 2-2.04 2-2.02 2-2.05 3-1.32 3-1.35 3-1.38 4-.95 4-.98 4-0.94 5-.76 5-.69 5-0.72 6-.62 Final Drive 3.55 Final Drive 3.94 Final drive 3.61