quote Originally posted by hyperv6: The 3.6 is a great engine but it is neither light nor small.

The LY7 (non-DI 3.6 DOHC) is said to weigh 370 lbs as installed. That's light IMO, a very good power/weight ratio. The LLT is heavier by a little bit mainly because of the direct-injection mechanical fuel pump, but the LFX weighs 20.5 lbs less than the LLT as mentioned in the OP. I haven't found an actual weight, but I'd bet it's very close to the weight of the LY7 or lighter.

quote The LFX engine is significantly lighter than the current 3.6L V-6. The integrated cylinder head/exhaust manifold design saves approximately 13 pounds (6 kg) per engine over the cylinder heads and manifolds of the current engine, while the new composite intake manifold saves approximately 5.5 pounds (2.5 kg) over the current aluminum intake. Additionally, a lighter-weight structural front cover and lighter-weight, high-strength connecting rods bring the total weight savings to 20.5 pounds (9.3 kg), which helps the vehicle’s fuel efficiency and enhances its feeling of driving balance.

http://media.gm.com/content...r/0413_camaro_engine

Well I guess that answers my question about the integrated exhaust manifolds, heh (though headers are still light ). I must have missed that a couple days ago when the info on the LFX came out.

Ah, I misread the page I was looking at. They are 60 degree engines, indeed. Sorry.

3.0 with integrated exhaust manifold. I'm guessing the 3.6 will be similar.

quote Originally posted by Doug85GT: 3.0 with integrated exhaust manifold. I'm guessing the 3.6 will be similar.

Yes. The heads/intake on the LFX are basically an updated version of what's on the LF1. A little larger and better flowing, to make the 323 bhp for the Camaro, but on the outside will probably look almost exactly the same.

Anybody else notice how tidy that belt setup would be for a fiero swap? Also curious, on the top pic, are those 2 tubes fuel supply/return or heater core coolant lines?

I thought all the new motors were returnless..

------------------


Currently in the middle of my 88 + 3800NA swap

hmmm look where they put that oil filter... right next to the catalytic converter.
also do a quick search on timing chain replacement on these engines.
6k miles yes six thousand miles ive seen on more than one occasion.
i work at a chevy dealership. the 3.6 is a junk motor that needs to be thrown away and pump out the 3.8 again
edit: *add turbo here*

[This message has been edited by BlackGT Codde (edited 04-16-2011).]

quote Originally posted by aaronkoch: Anybody else notice how tidy that belt setup would be for a fiero swap? Also curious, on the top pic, are those 2 tubes fuel supply/return or heater core coolant lines? I thought all the new motors were returnless..

Those look like heater lines to me.

Here is a cutaway drawing of the actual motor we are talking about. Unfortunately it does not show where the oil filter is. It also looks like there are 3?!? timing chains.


BTW, this is big:

[This message has been edited by Doug85GT (edited 04-16-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Doug85GT: Here is a cutaway drawing of the actual motor we are talking about. Unfortunately it does not show where the oil filter is. It also looks like there are 3?!? timing chains.

All of the High Feature engines have 3 chains, I believe. The one on the crank that drives two cogs, which drive the cams.

In the cutaway, the oil filter isn't visible, as it would be located where the cutaway is. Here is a Camaro LLT, where you can see it relocates the filter to a vertical canister type, rather than the screw-on filter that affixes to the block. I'm pretty sure the LFX will use the same oil filter setup, as I believe this is used on the RWD cars, as the filter location on the block is very difficult to get to due to the front suspension, there. However, for transverse mounting in the Fiero, I'm pretty sure you can remove this housing, and simply use a screw-on filter, as the blocks are the same for both transverse and RWD applications.

well we can talk all day long but no one has even attempted to even put the LY7 3.6 in I dont even know if any have even bought one . the electronics would be a stoping point for most and like most dont even come close to having the money to get it going so yes a cool engine gona happen by any one i dont think it will for along time just my thoughts

[This message has been edited by engine man (edited 04-17-2011).]

quote Originally posted by engine man: well we can talk all day long but no one has even attempted to even put the LY7 3.6 in I dont even know if any have even bought one . the electronics would be a stoping point for most and like most dont even come close to having the money to get it going so yes a cool engine gona happen by any one i dont think it will for along time just my thoughts

Not true. This guy was doing one, and even got a Saab F40 for it, but I don't think he ever finished it. Don't know if he just got discouraged, bored, or what, though. https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/084103.html

While I will be taking the easy way out with the electronics for such a swap, I can tell you that I will have one running and on the road within the next 2 years. I havn't got all the details worked out yet, as I have other projects (LS4 + F40) to finish first, and new things keep popping up relating to the High Feature engines. I'd like to see more details on the changes for the LFX internals and block and heads, as compared to the LLT, first.

You guys can have your High Feature engines, I just scored a very inexpensive set of Carrillo H-beam rods for my 3.2 destroker build.

Actually, I still REALLY want to see a 3.6 in a Fiero, I'm just excited that I'm getting the parts together to make a lot more power and rev even higher than one.

The electronics won't be as hard as previously thought, here's a question that Vince from Trifecta Performance, who tunes these engines, recently answered:

Q:

quote (Quoted from my friend Will): So you can disable any requirements for the BCM, anti-theft systems, etc... I am *not* interested in rewiring a Fiero or a BMW to be a Solstice or Camaro.

A:

quote I've sold VATS/BCM dependency disabled ECMs to several people with both LLT and LNF without issue. - Vince Geglia Trifecta Performance, Inc.

That's good news for the potential HF swappers.

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 04-17-2011).]

I am sure this particular swap won't happen in a Fiero for probably another 3-5 years. Swaps on a new platform are usually only done when someone has a full wreck to work with.

If I didn't already have my LQ1, I would look for a Cadillac front clip with a LY7.

Before any swap can be done, the research needs to be done. I think that is what this thread is meant to be used as: a way to discuss it, throw out ideas and learn more about the engine.

Ok there was one bought but that was about it he in the end thought it was going to take to much money to do he said $10,000 i think thats high but i could see it being $5000 and for that you could have a nice V8 N* i think

quote Originally posted by engine man: Ok there was one bought but that was about it he in the end thought it was going to take to much money to do he said $10,000 i think thats high but i could see it being $5000 and for that you could have a nice V8 N* i think

I think his problem was that he didn't do his research before diving into the swap. And it looks like he was wanting to use an ECM that was $2000 by itself. Also no idea how much he paid for the engine and F40 that he got, but I suspect too much. I think the engines are probably cheaper today. Some models are still pretty expensive though, out of used cars.

If you're worried about spending $5000 on an engine swap, you probably shouldn't be doing an engine swap. And between the Northstar and the V6, I'd rather have the V6, as it's going to make the same power and use less gas doing it.

I dont see that the fuel mileage will be that much more and make more power then a N* V8 the heads flow 284 cfm for the V6 and if you use the cfm formula of 1.5 HP per cfm thats 426 HP max and the N* is 225 and the formula is 2 HP per CFM due to 2 more Cylinders thats 450 HP and it takes about a half a pound of gas per HP no matter what . I will say the direct injection will do it a bit more efficiently so you might get 3 maybe 5 at tops miles per gallon better just my thoughts

quote Originally posted by engine man: I dont see that the fuel mileage will be that much more and make more power then a N* V8 the heads flow 284 cfm for the V6 and if you use the cfm formula of 1.5 HP per cfm thats 426 HP max and the N* is 225 and the formula is 2 HP per CFM due to 2 more Cylinders thats 450 HP and it takes about a half a pound of gas per HP no matter what . I will say the direct injection will do it a bit more efficiently so you might get 3 maybe 5 at tops miles per gallon better just my thoughts

It is 1.5 cfm per hp roughly. I believe the flow numbers are per head which already takes into account number of cylinders. So the N* total CFM for the engine is 450 which if you divide by 1.5 = 300 hp. LFX would be (284 * 2) / 1.5 = 378 hp.

Are you sure the N* heads only flow 225? That sounds a bit low. If so, the engineers did a great job in getting every hp out of the air the heads can flow.

quote Originally posted by Doug85GT: It is 1.5 cfm per hp roughly. I believe the flow numbers are per head which already takes into account number of cylinders. So the N* total CFM for the engine is 450 which if you divide by 1.5 = 300 hp. LFX would be (284 * 2) / 1.5 = 378 hp. Are you sure the N* heads only flow 225? That sounds a bit low. If so, the engineers did a great job in getting every hp out of the air the heads can flow.

The only numbers I could find for stock N* heads were 218 for intake at stock lift. I think that was a 2000-era head though. The later models might be a little higher. I'd have to go search and find the link again where it said 218. And I think the 3.6 might have a slightly higher stock lift than the N* a well?

quote Originally posted by dobey: The only numbers I could find for stock N* heads were 218 for intake at stock lift. I think that was a 2000-era head though. The later models might be a little higher. I'd have to go search and find the link again where it said 218. And I think the 3.6 might have a slightly higher stock lift than the N* a well?

Not lift, flow. CFM = Cubic Feet per Minute.

quote Originally posted by Doug85GT: Not lift, flow. CFM = Cubic Feet per Minute.

Yes, but you measure the CFM at a certain valve lift. The amount the valve is open, and the way the valve is cut, both restrict flow. If the heads flow 225 CFM at 0.500 lift, but the cams only ever open the valves to 0.400 lift, your numbers might look good at 225, but you'll never see them on the dyno.

Ah. I misread what you posted. My mistake.

CHRF site http://www.chrfab.com/Head_Work.htm flow #
Flow in cfm at 28"

Lift Stock 4.0L Stock 4.6L Mod 4.6L

Int Exh Int Exh Int Exh

.050 26 29.6 39.2 28.8 40
.100 75.2 67.9 81.1 67 59.2

.150 110.7 94.5 121.8 98.4 92.3

.200 143.6 109.1 157 122.9
.250 170.9 118.6 186.4 133.9
.300 193.3 125.7 208.5 141 218
.350 207.5 130.9 218.3 146.2 239.4
.400 211.6 134.1 218.9 150 255.5
.450 215.1 138.5 222.4 152.8 265.7
.500 217.3 42.1 225.2 154.8 273.2
the olds 4.0 heads are not as good as the cad N* heads

the one other thing to get to like the 425 HP the 3.6 i think it will take 8 to 9 thousand rpm so stress on the parts would be high the N* will need to rev but much less so way less stress

I do like the 3.6 but its to much for a standard trans and no suport at all but i think mega squirt is working hard on the VVT part

[This message has been edited by engine man (edited 04-18-2011).]

quote Originally posted by engine man: the one other thing to get to like the 425 HP the 3.6 i think it will take 8 to 9 thousand rpm so stress on the parts would be high the N* will need to rev but much less so way less stress I do like the 3.6 but its to much for a standard trans and no suport at all but i think mega squirt is working hard on the VVT part

Not everyone cares about making 5000 horsepower with every engine swap they do. And head flow CFM is only one TINY little piece of that picture for the ones that do. 99% of the people concerned with making a lot of power in a street car are only using all that power 1% of the time anyway.

And if you would rather do a Northstar than a High Feature engine, then go do one and stop whining about how hard the 3.6 is in all the 3.6 threads. It's great you think the N* is a better choice for you, but it has nothing to do with what can be done for getting a HF V6 swapped and running in a Fiero.

your right not every one wants power so you can keep the N* stock and just do headers and good tune ad it will get good gas mileage and with the money you save on the install being cheaper then the v6 you can buy that extra gas it needs to run the N* lol

[This message has been edited by engine man (edited 04-18-2011).]

Would installing the Hi Value 3.6 out of a recent Malibu/G6/Aura be any easier? I know they are not DI, but they are transverse mounted, and put out about 260 hp. These engines are starting to show up in the wrecking yards in some numbers so they should be less expensive. Plus they are attached to a nice six speed auto that offers paddle shifting. This engine/trans would be a nice upgrade for a 2.8 auto Fiero.

Rick, I believe you're talking about the LY7, which is still a Hi Feature DOHC V6.
This drivetrain, with the 6 speed auto, could actually be my swap of choice, depending upon the difficulty (or not, as the case may be) of doing the DI version.
I would have to see the DI setup, before I would be comfortable that it would work in a Fiero as easily (easily?) as the LY7.

The DI part is not the hard part IMO. There is a standard fuel pump in the fuel tank and then a mechanical one on the block that bumps the pressure up to what is required for DI.

The hard part might be just getting the electronics to work with the Fiero electrical system. I know ALLTRBO posted some quotes that say that it will work. No one knows for sure until it is actually done. For someone like me in California, it might be impossible to do as a swap because our ridiculous smog laws don't allow altering of the ECM and from what I hear alterations to a OBDII ECM is easy to detect.

quote Originally posted by Raydar: Rick, I believe you're talking about the LY7, which is still a Hi Feature DOHC V6. This drivetrain, with the 6 speed auto, could actually be my swap of choice, depending upon the difficulty (or not, as the case may be) of doing the DI version. I would have to see the DI setup, before I would be comfortable that it would work in a Fiero as easily (easily?) as the LY7.

Raydar, you are probably right. I have heard the name "Hi Value" and thought that it was given to the non DI 3.6 motors. This powertrain moves a new Malibu around very nicely, and would be even better in a lighter Fiero. Also, they should be less expensive in the yards than the DI equivalent. If there is ever a swap kit for either of these 3.6 engines, I think they would be great in a Fiero.

[This message has been edited by Rick 88 (edited 04-18-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Doug85GT: The DI part is not the hard part IMO. There is a standard fuel pump in the fuel tank and then a mechanical one on the block that bumps the pressure up to what is required for DI. The hard part might be just getting the electronics to work with the Fiero electrical system. I know ALLTRBO posted some quotes that say that it will work. No one knows for sure until it is actually done. For someone like me in California, it might be impossible to do as a swap because our ridiculous smog laws don't allow altering of the ECM and from what I hear alterations to a OBDII ECM is easy to detect.

Well, the electronics are a lot easier, if you swap in the gauges and everything. See Rickady's LS4 swap for example. Given the smog certified swaps I see on here form California though, I don't think that ECM statement is entirely true.

Man will you guys do one already?
I have a g6 with the ly7, the oil filters are a pain in the ass from what I've heard on the g6 forums. I have taken it to the dealer for this reason.
Last time this came up I tried reading on it and I thought a major problem was with the DI ECMS and them not being tunable yet.
I'm not putting any money into my stock 2.8 and waiting for either a HFV6 or ecotec swap I can afford.

quote Originally posted by Rick 88: Raydar, you are probably right. I have heard the name "Hi Value" and thought that it was given to the non DI 3.6 motors. This powertrain moves a new Malibu around very nicely, and would be even better in a lighter Fiero. Also, they should be less expensive in the yards than the DI equivalent. If there is ever a swap kit for either of these 3.6 engines, I think they would be great in a Fiero.

The "High Value" engine family are pushrod V6s, and some have already been swapped into Fieros. These are the 3.5L and 3.9L engines. They are much easier to swap, and have the Metric bell housing pattern, so can bolt straight up to all the common Fiero swap transmissions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_High_Value_engine

The "High Feature" engines are the DOHC V6 engines, available in a lot more displacements.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wik..._High_Feature_engine

The LF1 3.0, Alfa 3.2, LLT 3.6 and LFX 3.6 are the High Feature engines with DI. It seems like the only thing about the DI version that would make it harder, is that it has a mechanical fuel pump on the accessory drive, which may need some rearranging for fitting in a Fiero. Electronically, they shouldn't be any more or less difficult, as I think both versions of the engines still use the same ECM hardware with slightly different programming. The LF1 and LFX engines though, do have internal exhaust manifolds built into the heads, which may make exhaust options a bit more difficult to deal with.

well dobey I would still like to do my steam idea but not enough $$$$$$$ and at least I can dream . but i don't go around giving folks a hard time about there dreams like you so stop crying because some one gave you back a little of what you dish out LOL

[This message has been edited by engine man (edited 04-19-2011).]

quote Originally posted by engine man: well dobey I would still like to do my steam idea but not enough $$$$$$$ and at least I can dream . but i don't go around giving folks a hard time about there dreams like you so stop crying because some one gave you back a little of what you dish out LOL

Then do it. I'm not going around giving you a hard time about your jumbled mess of dreams. I only gave you a tiny bit of guff in maybe 2 of the 300 or so threads you've started about random engines being swapped into a Fiero; and only because it's obvious you have no idea what you want in an engine swap, and you like to ignore the facts, and get stuck on CFM ratings for the 3.4 DOHC heads, that seem to be incorrect anyway. Even if your own LY7/LLT thread you created, you kept going on about how the 3.4 DOHC supposedly flows so much better. Get over it. Nobody is crying because you don't like the 3.6 DOHC engines.

the thing is I LIKE every engine even the 3.6 but what sucks is that the only standard that will bolt to it is out of the 93 areo or a new 95 so there rather pricey and as far as the 3.4 DOHC i said the heads flow almost as good even though i had the wrong info the where still less than 20 cfm differance but any way i hope that some one puts the 3.6 in and we wont fight any more and no more bitching so what do you really think it will take to get one of the 3.6 in a fiero the only really thing i can think of on the DI engine will be the tank fuel pump not sure if that need to be a higher pressure and the throttle body is that drive by wire if so then then you would need to do something there as fare as the controlling of it I have no idea

[This message has been edited by engine man (edited 04-19-2011).]

I searched from the "quote" that ALLTRBO posted...

From Trifecta's page.
http://trifectaperformance.com/

UPDATE (01/03/10) Trifecta Tunes 2008 Pontiac G8 V6 (remotely)!!
Trifecta now offers custom tuning for the 2008-2009 Pontiac G8 with the 3.6L (LY7) engine. We remote-tuned a 2008 Pontiac G8 in Ohio and dramatically improved power and reponsiveness, according to the owner of the vehicle! We're currently looking for somebody in the Seattle area with one of these cars, so we can put it on the dyno and generate some actual dyno results! If you want one of our new LY7 tunes and live in Seattle, please send us email! Also looking for: 2008-2010 Cadillac CTS, 3.6 (LY7), 3.6 SIDI (LLT)


UPDATE (06/11/10) VATS (AntiTheft) Disable available for E69 based engines -
We've had a number of requests for the ability to make E69 based engines (2.0 turbo/LNF, 3.6 SIDI/LLT) run in transplant applications. We now have the ability to make these engines and ECMs work without the body control module!


(There is lots of stuff about the Camaro, too.)

Sounds like the last nut has been cracked. Actually, almost a year ago.
They ought to have it polished to perfection by now.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 04-19-2011).]

? will the flywheel of the 2.8 in the 9-3 fit this engine and is the 6 speed standard the F40 with the HF engine bolt pattern and last is the F40 trans deeper then a getrag so it needs the flywheel set further beck . the reason i ask is if the flywheel need further set back on the F40 and that is what there using on the 9-3 then if a adapter is made for a getrag the correct thickness and the flywheel of that 2.8 fits the 3.6 that should solve that problem for the flywheel and tranns

quote Originally posted by engine man: ? will the flywheel of the 2.8 in the 9-3 fit this engine and is the 6 speed standard the F40 with the HF engine bolt pattern and last is the F40 trans deeper then a getrag so it needs the flywheel set further beck . the reason i ask is if the flywheel need further set back on the F40 and that is what there using on the 9-3 then if a adapter is made for a getrag the correct thickness and the flywheel of that 2.8 fits the 3.6 that should solve that problem for the flywheel and tranns

The LP9 and LY7/LLT flywheels should be the same. I think the Ecotecs might even use the same bolt circle for the crank, but not 100% sure on that. The flywheel on the 3.9 from the G6, or the stock Fiero flywheels will not work. All the HF V6 engines with manual use a dual mass flywheel, which is thicker, but the ring gear is not any further from the block. If you use an adapter plate, though, you will need to do some machine work or make a custom flywheel, to add the necessary thickness, I think.

And the new 9-5 does not come with a manual in the US. All the current year LP9 cars are automatics. Not sure about foreign market though. If you want an F40 with the right bellhousing pattern, it'll have to come off a 2003-2007 Saab 9-3 2.8t car, from what I can tell, unless you order a new one from a Saab parts dealer, or find a foreign market car that came with HFV6 and a manual trans, from somewhere. But buying one of those would probably be as much as buying a new one, especially if paying to import it from another country.