well i think it is the LS / vortec you can pick up a iron block 6.0 for about 1k and it makes 350 hp and it is lighter more efficient and sounds good passes emission or they do a 3800 easy to do good power in the SC form
I remember back when 350's in Fieros was the ultimate coolest thing to do.... That was back before the internet had any decent information ...and most of the knowledge we have today about installing the 3800sc, northstar, ecotec, etc was virtually non-exsistant ...you had to be smart determined (reserch + R&R)and spend more money to wire one of those engines in a fiero Archie had a product with step by step instructions that almost any moron could follow. That doesn't mean people today that install 3800sc's, northstar, etc are any smarter... Today's morons are blessed with easy access to information ...any moron that can read can get on the internet and figure out how these modern engines are wired up
so you installed a 3800sc, northstar, or ecotec in your fiero.... great.... but don't go hating on SBC guys just because you get better mpg
[This message has been edited by MaxCubes (edited 05-16-2011).]
Mine is still running, I fix things as they come up and I share some of the things I do. I don't post about my car as much, if asked I try to answer as best I can. I don't care so much about the gas, if I did I would drive the 2200 to work every day instead of the 350
I need an updated video, perhaps I will get one today
[This message has been edited by Jake_Dragon (edited 05-14-2011).]
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05:27 AM
Oreif Member
Posts: 16460 From: Schaumburg, IL Registered: Jan 2000
You are looking in the wrong area. Under the "Construction Zone" out of the top 12 threads, 10 are about V-8's. (sbc and N*) I still have mine and it runs great. In 7 years I have only had one thing go bad on the entire car. This spring I had a rear caliper develop a leak around the piston seal. Replaced it and all is good. Still a blast to drive and run laps on local road courses.
------------------ Happiness isn't around the corner... Happiness IS the corner. ZZ4 Powered !!
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07:26 AM
fieroguru Member
Posts: 12454 From: Champaign, IL Registered: Aug 2003
With most people having less disposable income and the high cost of fuel, most are looking for lower cost swaps that can get 25+ mpg on the highway. Most of the SBC threads that have been started in the last year or three are where someone purchased a complete SBC car (usually for less than the price of a master kit) and is reworking the swap vs. someone buying a brand new kit and doing a fresh install. I also think that most have figured out that pairing a 150K mile tranny with a SBC will eventually result in a non-operational car, so if you go the SBC route, you also should factor in the cost for a rebuilt transmission.
The 4.9 continues to be popular because of it low cost of completion, matched engine/transmission combo, and the power levels satisfy the improvement most are looking for. The 3800SC has the same benefits as the 4.9, but it isn't limited on performance upgrade options.
For me, I moved from SBC/Getrag to LS4/F40 about a year ago when I needed the SBC for my truck and will end up with a swap that weighs at least 75 lbs less, should make about 75 hp more, with a 500 rpm higher redline (to better match the transmission ratios), stronger transmission with lower highway RPMs, and should get at least 5 mpg better (28 mpg on highway) with the total cost of the install being slightly less than that of the SBC/Getrag.
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08:15 AM
California Kid Member
Posts: 9541 From: Metro Detroit Area, Michigan Registered: Jul 2001
Because a 3800 can put out the same power, get better mileage and does not require a V8 Archie kit to install.
That's funny actually, non of that applies to me and my car. Personally I think the SBC stands head and shoulders above the the 3800 SC, in many respects, mileage wasn't a consideration then - still isn't today (hobby car), mine isn't an Archie Kit, but it doesn't matter which kit, it's the package, how the car presents itself. A very large number of factors drive decisions on engine choice.
To me the Forum has gotten less activity due to Depression in the World, and projects like these have just taken a back seat to trying to maintain in this economy.
Cause Shauns efforts to convince people that V8 Fieros suck finally paid off? Yeah right! LOL
NOW THATS FUNNY !!!! Six Cylinder Shauna still ranting and raving.. I was told he's still writing things about me LOLOL what a spoiled little brat ....
With most people having less disposable income and the high cost of fuel, most are looking for lower cost swaps that can get 25+ mpg on the highway. Most of the SBC threads that have been started in the last year or three are where someone purchased a complete SBC car (usually for less than the price of a master kit) and is reworking the swap vs. someone buying a brand new kit and doing a fresh install. I also think that most have figured out that pairing a 150K mile tranny with a SBC will eventually result in a non-operational car, so if you go the SBC route, you also should factor in the cost for a rebuilt transmission.
The 4.9 continues to be popular because of it low cost of completion, matched engine/transmission combo, and the power levels satisfy the improvement most are looking for. The 3800SC has the same benefits as the 4.9, but it isn't limited on performance upgrade options.
For me, I moved from SBC/Getrag to LS4/F40 about a year ago when I needed the SBC for my truck and will end up with a swap that weighs at least 75 lbs less, should make about 75 hp more, with a 500 rpm higher redline (to better match the transmission ratios), stronger transmission with lower highway RPMs, and should get at least 5 mpg better (28 mpg on highway) with the total cost of the install being slightly less than that of the SBC/Getrag.
I think this hits it dead on...Hopefully some of this rings true,as I will be posting my 85 V8 sbc for sale later today...
I am holding out to see if someone does a 3.6 DI swap with a manual gearbox. 312 direct injected horsepower, 6000 plus rpm, and 29 mpg in a 1000 lb. heavier Camaro is pretty nice. In a Fiero it would be a blast. I think this engine will be the swap of the future in Fiero.
Of course if I could afford an LS9, that would be another story........
That's funny actually, non of that applies to me and my car. Personally I think the SBC stands head and shoulders above the the 3800 SC, in many respects, mileage wasn't a consideration then - still isn't today (hobby car), mine isn't an Archie Kit, but it doesn't matter which kit, it's the package, how the car presents itself. A very large number of factors drive decisions on engine choice.
To me the Forum has gotten less activity due to Depression in the World, and projects like these have just taken a back seat to trying to maintain in this economy.
What does a SBC (not a LQ/LS/LT) do that a 3800 doesnt do better? How a car "presents" itself does not really center around exhaust note (which can be fixed in a 3800)
The reasons that the SBC idea has been thrown out, are obvious.
1. gas mileage 2. price of motor itself 3. (biggest one imo) price of install (kits adapters,starters) 4. Complications with install (cutting framerails, weird water pump issues, radiator/cooling)
I dont have issues with any swap, but when ever this comes up you always get the 3800 sc or turbo comparison has the same horse power or whatever. ITS a forced induction engine, most 350 swaps are NA and they are doing the same power as a turbo or sc set up. Do the same theing to the V8 and you have more power , what you have to do to make it hook up is the same for high hp 3800 as it is fora v8. As for fuel milage its not what you drive but how you drive it. The cost of a 3800 swap is expensive as well weather your using warmed over junk yard parts all hacked up or all off the shelf parts and crate engines. The quality of the swap is dependent on the skill of the mechanic doing the work and above all the quality of the parts. Use cheap parts or unknown condition junk yard parts and just you wind up paying for you swap on installment instead of enjoying it out of the box.
What does a SBC (not a LQ/LS/LT) do that a 3800 doesnt do better?
Hold eight pistons.
Aside from build threads in the construction zone, I don't think you see much talk about V8s because of responses like this. Many people here are hostile towards anything other than "their preferred engine" and they'll go into any thread where something else is being discussed to explain why that person made the wrong choice.
Most V8 owners that I know built their cars for fun and aren't interested in constantly having to justify their decision to people. It's the Ford vs Chevy or Import vs Domestic argument applied to Fiero engine swaps. I've wanted to do a V8 swap ever since I drove my first V8 Fiero, although now that I have an LS1 Trans Am I'm not sure if a V8 Fiero is as desireable only because I have a V8 toy, so I could do something different, like a DOHC V6, or whatever, with the Fiero. One thing I did decide long ago was if I ever did do a V8 swap in my Fiero, I doubt I'd talk about it much here because I'm not interested in putting up with 3800 owners' .
[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 05-14-2011).]
What does a SBC (not a LQ/LS/LT) do that a 3800 doesnt do better? How a car "presents" itself does not really center around exhaust note (which can be fixed in a 3800)
The reasons that the SBC idea has been thrown out, are obvious.
1. gas mileage 2. price of motor itself 3. (biggest one imo) price of install (kits adapters,starters) 4. Complications with install (cutting framerails, weird water pump issues, radiator/cooling)
In my opinion your logic is flawed
1. My 400 hp 350sbc gets about 23mpg if I'm nice to it. I don't consider that horrible, what does a 400hp 3800 get if you're nice to it? I wouldn't suspect it to be much better. Plus I can reliably make 400hp without worry of the engine grenading itself, a 400hp 3800 is definitly doable, but even you would have to admit it's nowhere near as reliable as a 400 hp sbc. As for transmission reliability 400 hp is 400 hp no matter where it comes from.
2. I picked up a brand new basic 260hp 350 sbc from gm for less than $1600 10 or so years ago, I'm sure they are more now, but not much. I've built that engine up to get it to where it is now and I have less than 4000 grand in it including the original cost of the engine. If you really wanted to cheap out you could go the junkyard route [which is what most if not all 3800 swaps are] and come out closer to a $2k investment for the same 400hp. How much does it cost to make a RELIABLE, DRIVE EVERYDAY 400hp in a 3800?
3. Basic Archie kit about $1000 ten or so years ago. I don't know what the cost is now, but I don't think it's too much more. If you're good at scrounging and/or fabricating you can pick up/make the necessary adaptors and pieces for substantially less. I don't know if there's a 3800 "kit" out there but if there is what does it run?
4. As for complications with the install, I don't see much difference between the two swaps. Each has it's difficulties, each has it's advantages. In my install I didn't have to cut my framerails, and the water pump mods were minimal.
As for exhaust note, you can never make a 3800 sound as sweet as a good old thumping V8. I've never heard a 3800 anywhere give a similar sound to a V8. I have heard several 3800s that sound great in their own way, but in my opinion they don't rank up there with a good sounding V8.
You are correct, how a car presents itself doesn't center on it's exhaust note, but it is a part of how it presents itself. If that exhaust note is important to you it's hard to beat that V8 sound
In my opinion build what you're comfortable with, build what you like. Both are still quite viable options
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04:13 PM
PFF
System Bot
GT-X Member
Posts: 1507 From: Crestwood, KY Registered: Feb 2003
What does a SBC (not a LQ/LS/LT) do that a 3800 doesnt do better?
How about 2300 hp?
(disclaimer 1: yes I know it won't fit in a Fiero and it's big $$ but I'm just sayin'. I've never seen a 2300hp 3800sc) (disclaimer 2: I happen to like 3800sc and think they're a great engine for Fieros. I also like SBC's and think they're a great engine for Fieros. In the end, what you want, is the best choice.)
~Tyler
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04:41 PM
darkhorizon Member
Posts: 12279 From: Flint Michigan Registered: Jan 2006
1. My 400 hp 350sbc gets about 23mpg if I'm nice to it. I don't consider that horrible, what does a 400hp 3800 get if you're nice to it? I wouldn't suspect it to be much better. Plus I can reliably make 400hp without worry of the engine grenading itself, a 400hp 3800 is definitly doable, but even you would have to admit it's nowhere near as reliable as a 400 hp sbc. As for transmission reliability 400 hp is 400 hp no matter where it comes from.
I assume we are talking crank horsepower... In that case it costs almost nothing to setup a 400 crank HP 3800.. and have it run as reliably as anything... all while getting 33-35mpg "being nice".
quote
2. I picked up a brand new basic 260hp 350 sbc from gm for less than $1600 10 or so years ago, I'm sure they are more now, but not much. I've built that engine up to get it to where it is now and I have less than 4000 grand in it including the original cost of the engine. If you really wanted to cheap out you could go the junkyard route [which is what most if not all 3800 swaps are] and come out closer to a $2k investment for the same 400hp. How much does it cost to make a RELIABLE, DRIVE EVERYDAY 400hp in a 3800?
Junkyard 3800s are probably more reliable in fiero swaps than rebuilt 350s... Its purely a speculation, but I would suspect that i am right.
quote
3. Basic Archie kit about $1000 ten or so years ago. I don't know what the cost is now, but I don't think it's too much more. If you're good at scrounging and/or fabricating you can pick up/make the necessary adaptors and pieces for substantially less. I don't know if there's a 3800 "kit" out there but if there is what does it run?
There is no kit required for a 3800.
quote
4. As for complications with the install, I don't see much difference between the two swaps. Each has it's difficulties, each has it's advantages. In my install I didn't have to cut my framerails, and the water pump mods were minimal.
Some are, some arnt... It is usually more involved I would say.
quote
As for exhaust note, you can never make a 3800 sound as sweet as a good old thumping V8. I've never heard a 3800 anywhere give a similar sound to a V8. I have heard several 3800s that sound great in their own way, but in my opinion they don't rank up there with a good sounding V8.
My turbo sounds just fine.
[This message has been edited by darkhorizon (edited 05-14-2011).]
Both of these threads are about my V8 I try to post my experiences and hope someone will gain something from them. The Alt thread could be used for any Fiero not just a V8, the fuel pump too but as its going to be ran from the ignition and a safety cutoff it may not work on other setups.
I'm not mechanic but I get by and have been able to accomplish almost everything I have taken on.
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05:02 PM
Oreif Member
Posts: 16460 From: Schaumburg, IL Registered: Jan 2000
What does a SBC (not a LQ/LS/LT) do that a 3800 doesnt do better? How a car "presents" itself does not really center around exhaust note (which can be fixed in a 3800)
The reasons that the SBC idea has been thrown out, are obvious.
1. gas mileage 2. price of motor itself 3. (biggest one imo) price of install (kits adapters,starters) 4. Complications with install (cutting framerails, weird water pump issues, radiator/cooling)
1. Gas mileage with a V-8 is not as bad as you think. My carb'd V-8 gets better mileage than the stock V-6 did.
2. Used engines are not expensive and a new 3800 isn't cheap either. Most folks tend to use new SBC's because they are very easy to get and the cost is not bad unless you want something like a LS7.
3. Not all V-8's use a kit. The 4.9L and N* don't require kits. As for cost, the cost of the swap depends on the person doing it. A SBC can be swapped in for less than $4K if the person does much of their own work.
4. Not all SBC's require frame cutting. My frame isn't cut. Weird waterpump issues? Oh you might mean the pulley in the wheel well. Which hasn't been done for years. Most use the electric pumps or the cam driven pumps. Any engine swap that is using a larger more powerful engine will require a cooling system upgrade. Or are you saying a turbo 3800 generates less heat than a N/A SBC?
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05:23 PM
Racing_Master Member
Posts: 1460 From: Hooksett, NH, USA Registered: Nov 2007
Reason I don't do it.... .... Overdone :P. But hey, that is just me! I like to pioneer things or do things out of the norm.... 3800SCs, and SBCs, and the like are so overdone because they are so easy and cheap. I would rather do something people would tell me I am crazy over
Reason I don't do it.... .... Overdone :P. But hey, that is just me! I like to pioneer things or do things out of the norm.... 3800SCs, and SBCs, and the like are so overdone because they are so easy and cheap. I would rather do something people would tell me I am crazy over
AMG 6.3L V8. 510HP out of the box and 1500HP easily done. the Zonda R came with one in it and it's one of the fastest cars on the planet.
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07:43 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
Originally posted by darkhorizon: There is no kit required for a 3800.
So a 3800 uses the OEM engine mounts? The wiring harness plugs into the stock connections?
Saying there's no kit "required" when you still have to do fabrication work is a bit dishonest. It would be more accurate to say there is no kit "available" for the 3800. With a V8 Archie Master Kit, you get everything down to the hose clamps required for the swap. All those little incidental parts you run back and forth to the part store for - those aren't free are they? The 3800 does need fuel lines and coolant lines, right?
The only thing simpler about a 3800 swap is there is no bellhousing adapter plate required. Other than that, custom mounts, plumbing and wiring are required for any engine swap.
Are you trying to suggest a 3800 is a plug and play swap just like putting in another stock 2.8?
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10:02 PM
engine man Member
Posts: 5309 From: Morriston FL Registered: Mar 2006
ok 3800sc vs a LQ9 v8 both have great bottom ends the 3800sc heads are not that great where the lq9 heads flow pretty good as for after market parts lq9 all day long therre is every thing that you could ever want the 3800 some after market i dont even know if they have after market heads that fit that fwd block . the 3800 engine work good in the fiero but that dosnt mean it the best engine built
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10:21 PM
PFF
System Bot
blackrams Member
Posts: 32792 From: Covington, TN, USA Registered: Feb 2003
In my opinion build what you're comfortable with, build what you like. Both are still quite viable options
Here's my opinion, I've ridden in and driven just about every swap there is. I've been on a never ending mission to own the perfect Fiero with the optimal conversion. I've owned 14 or 15 Fieros, not sure on that. This is what I do know, I haven't found the perfect combination yet. My current stable consists of seven 88 notchbacks. IIRC, five were originally Formulas. Of those seven notchies, one is now a parts car because someone decided to rearend my daughter causing her to hit the car infront of her. All of my cars have different conversions, all have their strengths and weaknesses.
I am not into drag racing and I really don't care how fast my car can get through a quarter or eighth mile. What I care about is all round performance, reliability and getting the biggest bang for my buck, but, the one thing I insist on is the car must still handle like a Fiero and corner like it was on proverbial rails. I was never a V8 (SBC) fan after driving two different V8 Fieros, I simply did not care for the way they handled. If I had spent more time driving one, I might have changed my mind. Getting used to a converted Fiero is part of the process. I didn't have that opportunity, I only got to drive them a relatively short time and distance. Having said that, if I ever do or have done, another Fiero conversion, it will be an LS4 conversion. Paul (Fieroguru) has provided me with some insight and confidence that it would be a fun car to own and drive. But until that day comes, I'll be very happy to drive those in my current stable.
As mentioned previously, each car has it's own strengths and weaknesses. The one thing I have become convinced of is that a Fiero that is being driven as a performance car must have a manual transaxle. My opinion but, for my stable, that all that really counts. But, every rule has an exception, one never knows what is just around the corner.
My stable currently consists of the following:
88 Formula, 4.9 auto 88 Coupe, 4.9, 5 speed (in progress) 88 Formula, 3800SC, 5 speed 88 Formula, 3.4 TDC, 5 speed 88 Coupe, 3.4 P/R 5 speed 88 Formula, 2.8, 5 speed CJB 88 Coupe, parts car now
Pick yer poison, they can all kill ya.
Edited to correct that Formula count, 4 Formulas and three coupes.
------------------ Ron
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 05-14-2011).]
ok 3800sc vs a LQ9 v8 both have great bottom ends the 3800sc heads are not that great where the lq9 heads flow pretty good as for after market parts lq9 all day long therre is every thing that you could ever want the 3800 some after market i dont even know if they have after market heads that fit that fwd block . the 3800 engine work good in the fiero but that dosnt mean it the best engine built
why dont you see much sbc v8 discussion any more ? most younger people have never owned one and dont see why a fiero might be better with one .they want the motors they grew up with , not the ones grampa grew up with .
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11:56 PM
May 15th, 2011
California Kid Member
Posts: 9541 From: Metro Detroit Area, Michigan Registered: Jul 2001
why dont you see much sbc v8 discussion any more ? most younger people have never owned one and dont see why a fiero might be better with one .they want the motors they grew up with , not the ones grampa grew up with .
Insert line for the Movie "We Were Soldiers":
" If one of you sons of bitches call me Grampa.....I'll kill ya. "
why dont you see much sbc v8 discussion any more ? most younger people have never owned one and dont see why a fiero might be better with one .they want the motors they grew up with , not the ones grampa grew up with .
oh boy Turbo 4 cylinders are in the works ......
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01:09 AM
GADJet Member
Posts: 1466 From: Star City, AR, USA Registered: Sep 2010
(disclaimer 1: yes I know it won't fit in a Fiero and it's big $$ but I'm just sayin'. I've never seen a 2300hp 3800sc) (disclaimer 2: I happen to like 3800sc and think they're a great engine for Fieros. I also like SBC's and think they're a great engine for Fieros. In the end, what you want, is the best choice.)
~Tyler
When did a 454 become a small block motor? They specifically said small block!
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01:46 AM
Australian Member
Posts: 4701 From: Sydney Australia Registered: Sep 2004
...small block chevys (350,305,400,327,etc) are still easy to find... still cheap to build... and still easy to get horsepower from
Why the lost interest ?
The modern out look is green electric power and frangapani stickers. Don't worry if it isn't trendy to drive a V8 just as long as you don't get stuck driving behind one up a hill smelling of flowers.
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03:45 AM
joshh44 Member
Posts: 2166 From: Nanaimo, B.C, Canada Registered: Aug 2007
Yeah right! LOL
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