For my somewhat radical norm asp 2.8 engine Im building, I may make a new style of intake. The CFM will likely the same as the one we make now sell, it will just look dif; bigger plenium, some fins on top etc. I would apprecaite it if someone would convert an MS Word file -drawing- to IMG file so I can post what it may look like. If the interest is enough and it won't cost more to build, we may add it to products list. Also, while our currant intakes flow enough CFM to support 300+hp, I know some like the looks of a dual TB setup. Thus we may offer one if again, there is enough interest. The thing is, for a dual setup to work best, it needs to draw air from outside the engine compartment like the stock setup/ours and not from say, two cone type air filters on the TBs. Such would require some type of Y adapter and ducting to feed the TBs the addition of which will raise the cost. So what do you guys think?
you already know my answer! im holding off until you make them. i love your work. but the looks of the intake would probably raise a red flag for my smog guy. and im partial to the looks of the stocker.
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02:50 PM
Raydar Member
Posts: 40985 From: Carrollton GA. Out in the... country. Registered: Oct 1999
If your intake could be made to look similar to the old style TPI small block intake I would consider one. I really liked the look of the TPI V8's. I also love the look of the stock Fiero intake, even though it is not best for performance. No offense, but your current intake does not have a "factory production" look. I look forward to seeing your new design.
Originally posted by red85gt: That would be nice but the distributor is in the way or pontiac would of not done the akward bend on the stock intake.
You could make a TPI-style intake for the Fiero, with a bent neck for the throttle, if using the stock single-bore Fiero throttle body. Using the dual-bore TPI throttle body would be harder to do, yes. But one option would be to do the 7730 ECM conversion, and also switch to DIS and get rid of the distributor.
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12:31 AM
Francis T Member
Posts: 6620 From: spotsylvania va. usa Registered: Oct 2003
I'm hoping the new design will be close enough to the stock type look -IE flat looking plenium- to maybe sneek bya few inspectors, especially if painted red with with the finned top.
If Raydar has any look with that MS Word file you'll see what I mean. Keep in mind, the drawingf is a very rough draft, when -and / if- it's built it should look a lot better.
The real bummer with the smog crap is our intakes run cleaner than stock - the engines do not get progressively richer with RPM above 4k, and also get better gas millage. Thing is: with such a small market - even counting the F-bods and S-10 etc- we can't afford to get Ca approval.
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06:43 PM
IMSA GT Member
Posts: 10522 From: California Registered: Aug 2007
Thing is: with such a small market - even counting the F-bods and S-10 etc- we can't afford to get Ca approval.
I wouldn't even waste your time and money trying to convince this shithole state. Most people out here will simply install it after the smog or do what I do and pay a smog ref under the table.
PM sent.
[This message has been edited by IMSA GT (edited 05-29-2011).]
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07:08 PM
Raydar Member
Posts: 40985 From: Carrollton GA. Out in the... country. Registered: Oct 1999
I think it would be awesome if you could combine the look of a TPI V8 intake with dual throttle body functionality. .And I think it would be "do-able" if you made a wide plenum with a divider in the center, and a mounting plate for a TPI V8 throttle body. Think about it... two throttle valves, split plenum... basically a "stealthed" dual TB intake. Since you're using a twin-plate throttle body, you won't have any issues regarding sensor hook-ups, vacuum equalization, etc.
Just a thought.
[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 05-29-2011).]
Originally posted by Blacktree: I think it would be awesome if you could combine the look of a TPI V8 intake with dual throttle body functionality. .And I think it would be "do-able" if you made a wide plenum with a divider in the center, and a mounting plate for a TPI V8 throttle body. Think about it... two throttle valves, split plenum... basically a "stealthed" dual TB intake. Since you're using a twin-plate throttle body, you won't have any issues regarding sensor hook-ups, vacuum equalization, etc.
Just a thought.
Eh, the dual-plate throttle bodies on the TPI and LT1/4 engines weren't that good. They fit the engines they were designed for well enough, for style; but I wouldn't try to retrofit one to anything else. would be better off just using a larger single bore throttle body. Even all the new dual stage intakes use a single bore body.
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09:43 PM
Francis T Member
Posts: 6620 From: spotsylvania va. usa Registered: Oct 2003
Lol, it now kind of reminds of one of those funny very fuzzy looking signs that say STEADY. Even before you shook it up it wasn't that good of a drawing but It should get the idea across. Thanks Raydar
The top finned thing in the drawing will aluminium and use small -10/32- recessed cap -allens- screws. I may space the fins so that customers can put a FIERO logo on top to make it look more factory. The removeable top will also let me employ two plugs/holes in the bottom for easy access to the fuel rail mounting bolts and make it easier for us to weld velocity stacks on the runner ends. While they may not look it, what with maybe 2" inside the plenium, runner lengths will be the same.
I suspect some of you may be wondering if we can make it and keep the cost close to the intakes we now sell, me too! Material-wise it should be very close, as for the labor, no idea yet. The plenium will be lot more work than a round one.
If I go with the dual TB setup, I will use two pleniums with two good size balance tubes between them and keep the TBs even so they can use a common throttle shaft. Tuning should not be a problem, whereas one TB can be blocked off at time.
[This message has been edited by Francis T (edited 05-29-2011).]
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09:57 PM
Raydar Member
Posts: 40985 From: Carrollton GA. Out in the... country. Registered: Oct 1999
Eh, the dual-plate throttle bodies on the TPI and LT1/4 engines weren't that good. They fit the engines they were designed for well enough, for style; but I wouldn't try to retrofit one to anything else. would be better off just using a larger single bore throttle body. Even all the new dual stage intakes use a single bore body.
Totally agree but they looked cool. It would be nice to have an intake that looks cool as well as flows well.
Francis, your design looks a lot like the LX9 3500 intake (the upper part anyway). What about just making an adapter to use it with the stock Fiero middle/lower portions? Is there so much restriction in the middle portion that it wouldn't be feasible to do?
Originally posted by jscott1: Totally agree but they looked cool. It would be nice to have an intake that looks cool as well as flows well.
Well, the TPI looked cool because it didn't have to worry about the distributor, since for the FR layout cars, the intake and distributor were on opposite ends. Starting with the current Trueleo intake design, it wouldn't be too difficult to make an upper intake that looked more like the TPI setup. You'd just need to machine a top, and make a custom top/center section, and put some flanges on the intake runners , so they can be bolted to the center portion; just like the V8 TPI setup. Then the only real problem is dealing with the interference to the distributor. At least it would be easier to install, since the center portion would be removable.
But I don't think it's worth doing as something to sell to people. Too much work, and would need some custom gaskets and such. People are already reluctant to pay $600 for an intake. Even for one that "looked better, like the TPI," I don't think anyone would want to pay $900 or more for something that wouldn't perform as well as the $600 option. Maybe 1 or 2 might, because they want it only for show, and anything is better performing than the stock intake. But making it as anything other than a one-off experiment would probably be a poor business decision.
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01:01 AM
jscott1 Member
Posts: 21676 From: Houston, TX , USA Registered: Dec 2001
Originally posted by dobey: ... But I don't think it's worth doing as something to sell to people. Too much work, and would need some custom gaskets and such. People are already reluctant to pay $600 for an intake. Even for one that "looked better, like the TPI," I don't think anyone would want to pay $900 or more for something that wouldn't perform as well as the $600 option. Maybe 1 or 2 might, because they want it only for show, and anything is better performing than the stock intake. But making it as anything other than a one-off experiment would probably be a poor business decision.
You are probably right...but the Truleo is right on the harry edge of being beautiful now, it just needs a little tweaking.
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01:59 AM
Patrick Member
Posts: 37966 From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada Registered: Apr 99
The TPI motors hid the distributor under a finned plastic cap that resembled the top of the intake. Covering the distributor is not an issue for me. The illustration is a much improved look over the current design. I would like to see it have the central portion made slightly narrower and actually have the tubes coming directly out of the sides of the plenum like the original TPI design.
[This message has been edited by Rick 88 (edited 05-30-2011).]
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03:18 PM
jscott1 Member
Posts: 21676 From: Houston, TX , USA Registered: Dec 2001
The illustration is a much improved look over the current design. I would like to see it have the central portion made slightly narrower and actually have the tubes coming directly out of the sides of the plenum like the original TPI design.
Yes that would make it more attractive.
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06:50 PM
Francis T Member
Posts: 6620 From: spotsylvania va. usa Registered: Oct 2003
1- Even with it being a very liimited production custom intake, it won't sell if cost more than say $700, not to the Fiero crowd. Lol, we also make stuff for the Lotus crowd -they have money- and my son is always giving me a hard time: "The Fiero people don't have any money and/or won't pay for custom work, stop trying to make stuff for them !" He has a point whereas we dont really make much at all on our Fiero intakes or headers, but then he also loaves and races MR2s.... while I like the Fiero better. Kind of ironic inasmuch as the Fiero body reminds of the Lotus Espire. If I do make one and it turns out to be undoable as product because cost, no problem, it willl look cool on my car.
2- I don't want to make a box to sit on the stock center intake whereas it has a restricting bend in it. smaller runner inside dia, and no velocity stacks. Besides, we have plenty of base flanges which were the most complicated/costly part to desing and have CNCed for the intake.
3- Having the runners come in from the sides would one, make them too long, make the whole intake look even less like a stock Fiero, probably require intake removal to remove a valve cover as with the stock intake and add to the cost.
[This message has been edited by Francis T (edited 05-30-2011).]
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08:41 PM
Jun 11th, 2011
Francis T Member
Posts: 6620 From: spotsylvania va. usa Registered: Oct 2003
Just lil update for those waiting: I got my 2.8 engine back from Advaced Machine in MD -had it bored .030 over, everything balanced and all that- and thus I will soon -once I get my F-430 rear facia done- begin to put it al together. That relateds to this post whereas once it's assembled I can start work on the new design intake for it.
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09:11 AM
Doug85GT Member
Posts: 9712 From: Sacramento CA USA Registered: May 2003
It looks good. The large plenum will help with the flow quite a bit.
As I understand it, for high flow there are two ways to go. Either a large (or multiple) throttle bodies or a large plenum. They both serve the same purpose, slowing down the air in the plenum so that it can make the sharp 90 degree turn into the runners easier.
It would not surprise me if this intake with the large plenum flows as much as duel throttle body designs.
Want to really get attention? make a plenum that is designed to be used with a cheap Supercharger like the pontiac M62/M90 or the divorce mounted Ford Thunderbird. giving a easy path to using a dirt cheap SC on the 2.8/3.1/3.4 would be really interesting.
for the M62, the M90 is identical but taller with bigger impellers but the exact same base. Unfortunately you cant find much in CAD drawings of the baseplate without getting your hands on one.
I'm trying to make a 1 off for myself, but If my research can help you make one for the masses, I'l gladly help.
the M62 is a lot shorter than the M90 and is perfect for the 2.8-3.4 engine... gives more of a chance of making it fit under the decklid.
I was planning on basically a plate to bolt to the lower intake and the M62, But have not figured out what to do about the fuel injectors. If you can figure out how to stand that thing above the fuel rail and make it strong enough to handle the stresses of being pulled on by the drive belt..... I'll buy yours.
another option is the supercharger on the ford thunderbird. It's divorce mounted and has some nice plumbing already in place that if there was a bolt up intake for the fiero, it would suddenly be a lot easier.
Want to really get attention? make a plenum that is designed to be used with a cheap Supercharger like the pontiac M62/M90 or the divorce mounted Ford Thunderbird. giving a easy path to using a dirt cheap SC on the 2.8/3.1/3.4 would be really interesting.
for the M62, the M90 is identical but taller with bigger impellers but the exact same base. Unfortunately you cant find much in CAD drawings of the baseplate without getting your hands on one.
I'm trying to make a 1 off for myself, but If my research can help you make one for the masses, I'l gladly help.
the M62 is a lot shorter than the M90 and is perfect for the 2.8-3.4 engine... gives more of a chance of making it fit under the decklid.
I was planning on basically a plate to bolt to the lower intake and the M62, But have not figured out what to do about the fuel injectors. If you can figure out how to stand that thing above the fuel rail and make it strong enough to handle the stresses of being pulled on by the drive belt..... I'll buy yours.
another option is the supercharger on the ford thunderbird. It's divorce mounted and has some nice plumbing already in place that if there was a bolt up intake for the fiero, it would suddenly be a lot easier.
That draw is not much help whereas it does not show an unside view. What with fitting the fuel rail under it the M90 I had dismised the idea of making it fit under a stock hood, it would likely need scoop or bubble to hide it. Also, it will have to be high to lower flange mounting bolts, yet another reason it wont likely fit under a stock hood.
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06:08 PM
hookdonspeed Member
Posts: 7980 From: baltimore, md Registered: May 2008
Originally posted by Francis T: ...while our currant intakes flow enough CFM to support 300+hp, I know some like the looks of a dual TB setup. Thus we may offer one if again, there is enough interest.
Prior to this thread, the best-looking intake I've seen for the pushrod 600 V6 in my opinion was a dual-plenum set-up crafted as a "one-off" effort (I think by a gentleman in Georgia), but it wasn't for sale:
I think this is the same set-up, just without the finned cover between the plenums:
However, Francis T, your new intake manifold design depicted in the file Raydar converted for you might look even better:
quote
Originally posted by Raydar:
I also like these ideas you've mentioned:
quote
Originally posted by Francis T: The top finned thing in the drawing will aluminium and use small -10/32- recessed cap -allens- screws. I may space the fins so that customers can put a FIERO logo on top to make it look more factory.
I'm hoping you make the aluminum panel atop the plenum both thick and non-porous enough to chrome plate it. That way, I can find someone nearby me to chrome plate mine, just as was done with my Fiero's otherwise stock, aluminum valve covers. Then, to match the look of my Fiero's valve covers, I also could set off the fins you mentioned atop your new intake manifold with some heat-resistant black tape just as I did my Fiero's chromed valve covers' fins --- all of which, aside from looking great, should add 6,000 HP to my engine.
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08:09 PM
Jul 8th, 2011
Racing_Master Member
Posts: 1460 From: Hooksett, NH, USA Registered: Nov 2007
Francis T, whatever happened to your idea for a novel custom intake manifold for the pushrod 3.4L engine, namely, the single-throttle-body one depicted in this file which Raydar converted for you back in May of 2011 to help illustrate what it might look like on a pushrod 3.4L engine in a Fiero?
