[QUOTE]Originally posted by dobey:


There's a huge difference in cost when you're buying an $8000 crate motor vs. installing a 120K mile engine you got off eBay for $300.


How about if we use realistic numbers - The LS3 with the hot cam (480HP) runs less than $6500 - and woth every penny

Jim

quote Originally posted by Jim88GT: How about if we use realistic numbers - The LS3 with the hot cam (480HP) runs less than $6500 - and woth every penny Jim

OK. I was just recalling one of the prices I saw on a GMPP parts web site. Actual pricing on parts can vary wildly across dealers. But still, it's about 6x what my LS4 long block cost. And about 10-20x what you can get an OK 3800 for.

And my point still stands even if the crate motor is $6500 instead of $8000. It is possible to swap an LSx in for MUCH cheaper than what most people pay Archie to do one costs. I'm sure an LS7 swap would be "worth it" too, but it's a lot of $$$ and people are talking about how much LSx swaps cost compared to the other swaps people are doing. And the cost of an Archie swap greatly distorts the view for what it would cost to do an LSx swap.

quote Originally posted by Jim88GT: [QUOTE]Originally posted by dobey: There's a huge difference in cost when you're buying an $8000 crate motor vs. installing a 120K mile engine you got off eBay for $300. How about if we use realistic numbers - The LS3 with the hot cam (480HP) runs less than $6500 - and woth every penny Jim

but add in the ECM and harness for $995.00, so now we are at $7500, not that far off from $8K.

Rob

quote Originally posted by qwikgta: but add in the ECM and harness for $995.00, so now we are at $7500, not that far off from $8K. Rob

I was just having a little fun - figured I'd get a reply from Dobey in less than 10 minutes - he must be slowing down! I wasn't talking about the cost of the rest of the swap - just the crate motor. The LS3 also requires $ for bigger brakes and a stronger tranny etc etc etc....

Just to put out some other numbers. The 2 LS4 swaps that I have done, I got low mile drop outs from Morad in Ohio, the 40K engine cost $3200 and the 20K unit was $4000. This included the trans, wiring harness, ECM, TCM, steering column and brake booster. Yes they are more expensive than the other common swaps, but the power upgrades make the engine ideal for those that want that V8 sound and screaming performance.

Joe Sokol

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85 SE Daily driver with a 3.4 DOHC OBD II
88 Formula/GT 4.9 Allante Intake (My Baby)

I don’t think the ls(x) swaps are that expensive when you look at the total cost and what you are getting. If you look around you can easily find a decent fiero for under $2000, and any 20 something car is due for a new engine.so add $6000 for the swap. Under $8000 for a mid engine V8 sports car isn’t bad.

quote Originally posted by dobey: OK. I was just recalling one of the prices I saw on a GMPP parts web site. Actual pricing on parts can vary wildly across dealers. But still, it's about 6x what my LS4 long block cost. And about 10-20x what you can get an OK 3800 for. .

IF you call installing a 120,000+ motor a OK swap... you either have nothing else better to do, or you have a fully equiped race car garage and can pull and swap a motor in minutes. I dropped thousands into my 3.4 for one reason. It's now a brand new motor that will got another 120,000 miles driven hard. In my eyes only fools install a worn out junkyard motor they have never heard run in person, with a lick and a prayer. But then my time is highly valuable and I don't like pulling a motor for yet another major fix because I used a junkyard motor AS-IS....

I also grew up with hotrodders in the family that have always said, if it comes out of a junkyard, it get's a rebuild, unless you are building a demolition derby car.

quote Originally posted by Fieroking: Here is another LS4 disregard the engine covers (they are off a corvette) this is one quick Fiero (Murcielago) The turbo side From the rear Sitting in this 87 Fiero (Murcielago) Joe Sokol

Don and Joe:

The car looks great!

Nolan

Another point needs to be made about the cost of any motor swap -

If you perform the swap (any kind of swap) yourself, most do-it-yorselfers only count the actual dollars they have invested for the motor, parts, fliuds, etc., they don't usually assign a dollar value for the time they personally have invested (if they even track the time).

When you send a car to a swapper, whether it be Archie, Ryan, Jeremy, Guru, me, or whoever, yes, the total bill is more because of the labor; but the time the owner has in the car is cut to practically zero. And, the car is done, it runs, there is very little troubleshooting and sorting involved.

As to the cost of an LSx swap, by the time the do-it-yourselfer gets done, it is probably much less expensive to send it out to someone who has done it before.

There is the satisfaction factor, however, and that can be 'priceless'.

If I was going to remain stock I wouldn't have a problem with a higher mileage engine. Engines typically will last over 200,000 miles nowadays. Since I'm boosting mine I settled on a 20,000 mile engine and transaxle. Way less than a crate engine and pretty close to new. Just my opinion. I really don't want to get into a 3800/ls4 debate, but for me having an aluminum v8 as opposed to an iron v6 is worth some extra money.

[This message has been edited by dratts (edited 06-18-2011).]

quote Originally posted by timgray: IF you call installing a 120,000+ motor a OK swap... you either have nothing else better to do, or you have a fully equiped race car garage and can pull and swap a motor in minutes. I dropped thousands into my 3.4 for one reason. It's now a brand new motor that will got another 120,000 miles driven hard. In my eyes only fools install a worn out junkyard motor they have never heard run in person, with a lick and a prayer. But then my time is highly valuable and I don't like pulling a motor for yet another major fix because I used a junkyard motor AS-IS.... I also grew up with hotrodders in the family that have always said, if it comes out of a junkyard, it get's a rebuild, unless you are building a demolition derby car.

That isn't what I said. My LS4 only had 10K on it when I got it, but I'm still rebuilding it. But go look through all the "should I install a 3800?" threads and look at the comments from other 3800 swappers. The consensus I see there is that "if it's < 200K miles, it's probably good to just install." Now, I would freshen it up anyway, myself. But most of the swapped 3800s out there were not rebuilt before installing, from what I've seen. People looking for the cheapest possible swap, probably aren't going to rebuild the engine, either. Even if I pullsed a 3800 out of a running Buick that I'd been driving for 6 years as a daily, to swap in a Fiero, I'd still rebuild it. Besides, why would I want to put a motor with 120K in my Fiero that only has 60K itself?

The only engine I wouldn't rebuild, is a brand new engine.

I believe that the engine choice comes down to what your budget and taste can determine. Those new high tech lightweight V8's like the LS2/LS3 offer power, looks, sound, and get decent gasoline mileage. They are great choices but are almost always high dollar swaps. In addition to the engine you will need an adapter kit and most likely a new transmisson. If you have $12,000 + to invest I say go for it. A more economical lower power V8 would be the FWD LS4 as no adapter kit is needed but it is a difficult swap and more difficult for most backyard mechanics.
The reason why the V6 ( and 4.9l) is more popular is simply cost; more bang for the buck for the low dollar car collector/hobbiest.

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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

Simply put... power... now that turbos and superchargers are out there and more advanced you can put in a V6 throw a turbo on it and walk all over just about any stock V8 swap

quote Originally posted by pontiackid86: Simply put... power... now that turbos and superchargers are out there and more advanced you can put in a V6 throw a turbo on it and walk all over just about any stock V8 swap

It really has nothing to do with power. Turbos and superchargers also work on V8s. It's cost, time, and energy, to get it done. And the time and energy are just different forms of cost. The power argument is just a futile attempt at trying to compensate. Unless you've found some grand new engine that makes all it's power in the bottom end. And having all that power in an engine is totally pointless if you can't control it, or just can't drive.

This is sliding into a V6 Vs. V8 thread and that is not what I intended to start when I made the thread. I was just wondering what advancements have come along in the ls(x) swaps since I had done mine in 2002. I am very pleased with my install, but at the same time I know there are things that could be improved upon. But when I looked in the construction zone I didn’t see any ls(x) with the rwd bolt pattern being done.
for this side debate about V6 Vs. V8 for me the choice of a V8 was never one sided on speed alone. It was about the wow factor too. When I pull my Fiero (with LS1 and Hot cam, and short exhaust) into car show or cruise night it turns heads. People think a Fiero shouldn’t sound like that. Then I pop the trunk and they see the LS1 which does not look stock in way shape or form. They are usually shocked, and it gets allot of attention. I would guess if you had two identical Fieros at a car show one with a S/C 3800 and one with an LS3 the LS3 would get twice the attention, and maybe wrongly so but most would assume the V8 to be faster.
I think they are both great swaps if I had room for another fiero I wouldn’t mind having a S/C 3800 as well. In fact skitimes car has always been my favorite fiero (although I understand he no longer owns it). It was still stock enough to still look like a Fiero but had all the little tweaks to make it stand out.

quote Originally posted by pontiackid86: Simply put... power... now that turbos and superchargers are out there and more advanced you can put in a V6 throw a turbo on it and walk all over just about any stock V8 swap

and you can put a turbo on any V8 and utterly decimate ANY v6 swap. in fact do the EXACT SAME THING to both the V6 and the V8 and the V8 will always win.

In fact there is 800X more "go fast" parts for the LS series engine than the 3800 engine. Last week at the Hot Rod Tour proved this. All the vendors had go fast items for LSx series engines, and NOTHING at all for any V6.
Also turbos and Supercharges have been out there for decades. It's not new. what is new is dirt cheap used market OEM engines with a supercharger. being able to grab a used SC out of a junkyard for nothing (Under $400.00 is nothing when it comes to a supercharger) was unheard of 10+ years ago.

Ok, I'm frightened.. I agree on a point with Dobey.

As for V8 advancements, I have not seen anything new other than the great upwelling of new racing and performance ECM's from all the electrical companies. the "any dummy can tune it" type of ECM is available for the LSx series engines that make it easy to stick with MPFI and add go fast parts along with a re-tune in your driveway without a dyno or even knowing how to tune a car ECM. some are downright cheap at $3500.00 for a complete system that will control engine and transmission.

[This message has been edited by timgray (edited 06-17-2011).]

As I catch up on this post, I need to make a few replys. In my opinion, and my opinion only, those who have a LS3 "type" of swap do in fact have some extra cash on hand, because it does cost a lot of money. A few of the quotes in the last few replys are low. I also agree about the cost of the do-it-yourself swapper. To buy the V8 kit, the motor, trans and all the extra do add up and the comment about the cost of time is spot on. I did my own 3.4 DOHC swap. I blew the budget, and killed the clock. It cost 2x as much and took 4x as much time. When I did my LS376 swap, I paid Archie to do it. Did I care.......NO. It was well worth it to me. It took Rob and Chris, 4 days to do my swap. It took me 4+ years to do my DOHC.

The arguement about SC V6 and LS3/4 is just over. The two camps will NEVER agree on anything except the motors are in the FIERO. Get over it, don't give in to the preasure to respond to the arguement. Its always one sided. The SC guys are always bashing the V8 guys. I have seen some great SC builds, and I the one thing I will admit, for the price of my swap, I could have done the SC3800 swap, got a $4000 paint job, spent $2500 on a full blown suspension, $2000 on brakes and still had money left over to pay for gas for a year. In the end its what you want, and my LS swap is part of a long process to make the Fiero I want.

The arguement about the LS3 vs the LS4 is over. Both engine offer a great result. The main reason (as I see it) for the lack of LS4 is the manual trans. I know GURU and others have fixed that issue (some what) but until it becomes more common, I don't see it getting as big as the LS3. I will have an LS4 in my next Fiero, but it will be a "Daily Driver" 88 Formula, hard top, Automatic car. I will keep the LS4/AT and use a paddle shift in it. I want the Automatic because of the ease to drive it in traffic, and so that when I mash the "GO" pedal, I won't have to "worry" about braking the trans.

I have yet to hear anyone at a car show, or a cruze night tell me that I should have saved my money and put in a SC3800, but I have heard a whole lot of "Holy Crap" and "You have to be kidding me, a LS3 in a Fiero".

THe OP was looking for new information on the LS swaps. He wanted to "Catch up" on the latest trends. Lets get back on topic.

Rob

I agree. A stock ls4 swap will make a thrilling fiero. I turboed mine in order to match the stupid horsepower of the car I'm replicating and compared to how much I have in the car it didn't seem like a lot. We got it out of the shop this morning and I'll be driving it around for a week to watch for glitchs. I'm anxious to get it on a dynoe and tune it to see if we get the 640 hp that Kevin at car tuning claims. It already puts a huge grin on my face and my passengers when I mash the go pedal. Joe Sokol rules!

Congratulations dratts, she's a beaut!

quote Originally posted by Fieroking: The turbo side Joe Sokol

This is what has been missing from the v8 swaps, very nice swap Dratts and incredible install Joe.

Ray

Got my front tooth back in and did a run to Spokane for a new custom fit windshield. I checked the gas mileage and on a trip with 1/3 city and 2/3 highway driving between 50 and 70 mph I got 26.5 mpg with it's rough tune. I'm still hoping to get over 30 mpg on the highway with a good tune.

Should have left the tooth out, less wind resistance...

That's a nice mileage number even for a rough tune

Nolan

Never thought about that. Wind resistance huh? I get to see your car more than you do, so there! You've got a sweet car there Nolan. Joe says you're thinking boost. That's one of the engines that handles boost real good.

Yes I'm thinking about it but that will be something for the future. If I talk about boost with the spousal unit right now I think my life expectancy will abruptly drop.

Thanks for the compliments on my car, I sure like her.

Nolan

If I had the money, I'd have a V8 to go along with my 3800.

Finally! A solution to the 3800 vs V8 squabble. I'd like to have a boosted Eco tech too. So many options. That's what's so great about fieros.

[This message has been edited by dratts (edited 06-27-2011).]