ghost from the past here. I cant believe it has been almost nine years since I put my ls1 fiero on the road. I think it has been almost as long for regular posting on here as well. I was looking through the build section and didn't see any LS(x) V8's. i guess the ls4 has taken over, which makes sence with the bolt pattern issues. what new deveptment have come since for this swap?
The LS4 is an LSx motor. And there are plenty of people doing LS3s, with Archie's kit. What's with all the "has the X swap gone out of style" threads lately? This and the N* one both.
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11:27 PM
LS1swap Member
Posts: 1181 From: McHenry,IL.USA Registered: Jan 2001
your right the ls4 is a LS(x) i should have worded it differently meening none of the rwd bolt pattern v8's. like i said the ls4 makes more sence. why go through more work than you have to?
i made the post because i didn't see any build theads in the construction zone
There are other motor swaps that are faster, cheaper and better fitting than the LX motor....The 3800 I would say take the majority of the swaps going on these days.....
....The 3800 I would say take the majority of the swaps going on these days.....
Probably has something to do with how easy it is to get hold of one - and that whole reliability thing is great, too. Not to say the LS engines aren't reliable, just that you can't really go to a yard and trip over a couple dozen on a nice weekend like the 3800s.
Some hunting will alleviate that issue, if you really want to do one.
A major reason not as many do LS(x) swaps as much as say the 3800 or 4.9 is the cost of the engine and the possible cost of Archie's kit. Same situation as the SBC's except those motors are a good deal cheaper then LS(x)'s.
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03:05 AM
LS1swap Member
Posts: 1181 From: McHenry,IL.USA Registered: Jan 2001
A major reason not as many do LS(x) swaps as much as say the 3800 or 4.9 is the cost of the engine and the possible cost of Archie's kit. Same situation as the SBC's except those motors are a good deal cheaper then LS(x)'s.
I am sure there is allot of truth to that Iwas just hoping to here more about what oil pan and waterpump system home builders are using now?
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04:38 AM
KissMySSFiero Member
Posts: 5548 From: Tarpon Springs, FL USA Registered: Nov 2000
No one said you have to use an ls1, ls2, ls3 etc. You can pick up the iron block derivative of the LS block. They're cheap and plentiful. A 5.3 truck block will run under $500. The 6.0L blocks will run $1000-$1500 for used blocks. I've seen s10's pull 320hp/320tq on a 5.3L with a cam and shorty headers. That's not bad for a $500 motor and cam. That's essentially the same block as the LS4. here's the link with video. http://www.s10forum.com/for...h-bump-stick-392738/
Still, the fact you have to buy an adapter kit makes the swap more cost prohibitive. Most of the builds with rwd LSx engines have been done by archie. So they get done in a timely manner. There's a lot of other engine swaps that are done by someone at home. Working a weekend here and there will draw out the time it takes for the swap. So those build threads will be updated regularly and last longer.
your right the ls4 is a LS(x) i should have worded it differently meening none of the rwd bolt pattern v8's. like i said the ls4 makes more sence. why go through more work than you have to?
i made the post because i didn't see any build theads in the construction zone
The LS4 doesn't make any more sense to do than a RWD LSx swap, really. You don't need an adapter plate, but unless you're using the stock 4t65e-HD that came bolted to an LS4, there is a lot to deal with. The engine block doesn't have a starter mount, so to use a stick shift, you have to modify the trans to mount the starter to the bell housing. The engine comes with DoD/AFM, which is somewhat limiting, so to get rid of that, a lot more things need to be swapped out. The stock intake is a bit restrictive, The stock exhaust is restrictive.
Don't get me wrong, the LS4 is a great engine, and screams out for upgrades. And I'm in the middle of doing one. But it's not exactly any easier or cheaper if you're not going with a whole drivetrain drop-out from an LS4 car. There's a reason all the current LS4 swaps on the road are pretty much bone stock drop-outs.
Seems like maybe the question you were trying to ask was why there were no build threads really. Sort of like the SBC thread that was here a couple weeks ago. And I think it's because a large number of the LSx swaps are done by Archie, and there's no point in making another thread that's "I bought a V8 swap" when there's the "What's going on at Archie's?" thread. and I think most of the V8 swaps tend to be from the 35-40+ crowd. And a lot of them are tired of all the V6 vs V8 BS that tends to happen when any V8 threads come up.
No one said you have to use an ls1, ls2, ls3 etc. You can pick up the iron block derivative of the LS block. They're cheap and plentiful. A 5.3 truck block will run under $500. The 6.0L blocks will run $1000-$1500 for used blocks. I've seen s10's pull 320hp/320tq on a 5.3L with a cam and shorty headers. That's not bad for a $500 motor and cam. That's essentially the same block as the LS4. here's the link with video. http://www.s10forum.com/for...h-bump-stick-392738/
Still, the fact you have to buy an adapter kit makes the swap more cost prohibitive. Most of the builds with rwd LSx engines have been done by archie. So they get done in a timely manner. There's a lot of other engine swaps that are done by someone at home. Working a weekend here and there will draw out the time it takes for the swap. So those build threads will be updated regularly and last longer.
Exactly, and if anything I think the LS builds are getting more common.
------------------ 84 2m4 72 whp 108 wtq, stock.
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08:37 AM
fieroguru Member
Posts: 12453 From: Champaign, IL Registered: Aug 2003
The LS4 doesn't make any more sense to do than a RWD LSx swap, really. You don't need an adapter plate, but unless you're using the stock 4t65e-HD that came bolted to an LS4, there is a lot to deal with. The engine block doesn't have a starter mount, so to use a stick shift, you have to modify the trans to mount the starter to the bell housing. The engine comes with DoD/AFM, which is somewhat limiting, so to get rid of that, a lot more things need to be swapped out. The stock intake is a bit restrictive, The stock exhaust is restrictive.
Don't get me wrong, the LS4 is a great engine, and screams out for upgrades. And I'm in the middle of doing one. But it's not exactly any easier or cheaper if you're not going with a whole drivetrain drop-out from an LS4 car. There's a reason all the current LS4 swaps on the road are pretty much bone stock drop-outs.
Seems like maybe the question you were trying to ask was why there were no build threads really. Sort of like the SBC thread that was here a couple weeks ago. And I think it's because a large number of the LSx swaps are done by Archie, and there's no point in making another thread that's "I bought a V8 swap" when there's the "What's going on at Archie's?" thread. and I think most of the V8 swaps tend to be from the 35-40+ crowd. And a lot of them are tired of all the V6 vs V8 BS that tends to happen when any V8 threads come up.
Agreed.
Once the LS4/F40 is done, I am kicking around doing a low cost LS(x) based swap for my daily commuter (fun but fuel effient) using the following: 4.8 truck engine (dirt cheap) 97 Corvette stamped steel stainless manifold (flow decent, and dirt cheap) LS1 intake (better looking, lower profile and dirt cheap) Stock LS6 cam (better performance, dirt cheap) Electric water pump with remote thermostat housing. Thin adapter plate (about 1/4" - easy for me to fabricate) Modified LS1 flywheel (turned to accept 142 tooth ring gear and fiero pressure plate) Tranny mounted starter using the stock LS4 starter (similar bolt on bracket as my LS4/F40) 92-94 Getrag (no clutch release lever - allows room for the starter - keeps all the axles, shifter brackets and shifter cables stock)
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11:50 AM
PFF
System Bot
qwikgta Member
Posts: 4670 From: Virginia Beach, VA Registered: Jan 2001
ghost from the past here. I cant believe it has been almost nine years since I put my ls1 fiero on the road. I think it has been almost as long for regular posting on here as well. I was looking through the build section and didn't see any LS(x) V8's. i guess the ls4 has taken over, which makes sence with the bolt pattern issues. what new deveptment have come since for this swap?
Oh GOD... here we go again. We just got rid of the last thread on this subject after pages and pages of why V6 motors are better than V8's. Yes I know thats not the subject of this thread, but the last one turned into a big pissing contest and went on for pages and the OP of that thread didn't start it as a V6 vs. V8 post either.
i made the post because i didn't see any build theads in the construction zone
My ideas:
1. Cliff controls what threads move to "construction zone" 2. Because if the builder mentions "Archie" anywhere in the thread, the A$$holes come out of the woodwork to bash them for it. Its just more fun to build it, and keep it to yourself, or share with friends over email. 3. They are not members of Pennocks ( I know two V8 swaps going on that will not be posted on Pennocks and another who is buying stuff from Archie, but may not post here for reason #2)
not saying it is so, but cost has more dimensions than just "I can't afford that". I know you get cheap engines in the US, but around here the cost of the engine alone would be enough to have you re-think the swap. For the money you put into a V8 fiero, there are other very interesting alternatives, and while a late 80´s corvette may or may not be a better car, it's already on the road and probably an upgrade compared to the original fiero.
I'm sure all the v8 fiero fanatics will jump at me, but I am in no way saying the fiero is a bad car, just that as costs increase you start looking at your options
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02:58 PM
LS1swap Member
Posts: 1181 From: McHenry,IL.USA Registered: Jan 2001
I didn’t realize the construction zone was controlled by cliff, I thought anyone could start one. Wasn’t trying to start up that whole v8 Vs. v6 debate, just when I went through the first three pages in the construction zone last night at work and didn’t see any LS(x) threads except for a couple ls4’s, and was curious. (by the way not bashing LS4’s I think they are a great swap)
Not starting any Archie debate either, when it comes down to it the first two LS1 swaps were not done by Archie anyway. I am sure there must have been others since as well.
I do remember both of those topics even ten years ago, and they were never productive for anything. Some things never change LOL
One of the things I was hoping to find was if anyone one was using the front sump pans for the GTO’s to do swaps now.
Originally posted by LS1swap: One of the things I was hoping to find was if anyone one was using the front sump pans for the GTO’s to do swaps now.
I don't know of anyone using the GTO pan on an LSx swap. Maybe someone has a swap with a LS2 from a GTO though? I am using a C6 Vette LS2/3 pan on my LS4 swap. And my thread isn't in TCZ yet either, it's in TD&Q.
But I unfortunately haven't gotten very far yet either.
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05:45 PM
Doug85GT Member
Posts: 9825 From: Sacramento CA USA Registered: May 2003
Don't judge the number of engine swaps by what is in the Construction Zone. There are a lot of threads on swaps that never make it into that forum. I don't know what the rule is for that forum but it is far from all of them.
Just the opposite - LSX swaps are gaining in popularity! I think a lot of us that go the LSX route are older and don't feel the need to seek approval online - we just build what we like, enjoy our cars and don't waste time worrying about what the 3800 crowd does.
Originally posted by Doug85GT: Don't judge the number of engine swaps by what is in the Construction Zone. There are a lot of threads on swaps that never make it into that forum. I don't know what the rule is for that forum but it is far from all of them.
I have noticed a lot of your posts recently have had this "." link at the end of them, which links to a completely unrelated thread. Why are you spamming other threads with seemingly inconspicuous links to totally unrelated posts in other threads?
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09:18 PM
Jun 14th, 2011
Gandalf Member
Posts: 647 From: Stockport, England Registered: May 2009
I have noticed a lot of your posts recently have had this "." link at the end of them, which links to a completely unrelated thread. Why are you spamming other threads with seemingly inconspicuous links to totally unrelated posts in other threads?
I too noticed this, and have come to this thread after following a series of 3 or 4 "." links
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08:18 AM
hookdonspeed Member
Posts: 7980 From: baltimore, md Registered: May 2008
I have noticed a lot of your posts recently have had this "." link at the end of them, which links to a completely unrelated thread. Why are you spamming other threads with seemingly inconspicuous links to totally unrelated posts in other threads?
it links to his last post, kinda ingenious actually, lets you stalk erm... follow him around the forum
and probably makes it really easy for him to just go back threw to see any new post that have been made since he last posted as it links directly to his lastpost.
Originally posted by hookdonspeed: it links to his last post, kinda ingenious actually, lets you stalk erm... follow him around the forum
and probably makes it really easy for him to just go back threw to see any new post that have been made since he last posted as it links directly to his lastpost.
It's disturbing, especially going from TD&Q to dumb threads in T/OT.
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09:52 AM
Doug85GT Member
Posts: 9825 From: Sacramento CA USA Registered: May 2003
A major reason not as many do LS(x) swaps as much as say the 3800 or 4.9 is the cost of the engine and the possible cost of Archie's kit. Same situation as the SBC's except those motors are a good deal cheaper then LS(x)'s.
Exactly.
the LSx is the rich mans swap.
that said, I'd love a LS4 if I had $6000 for a swap just to buy the parts.
They're not buying up the ls4s are they? I'm tempted to buy a spare ls4 while they are still reasonable.
Not really. The other LS engines are a better option for any S-10, muscle car, etc… swaps. A hot rod Daewoo Lanos with an LS4 would be pretty rockin' though.
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10:30 PM
jaymelk2 Member
Posts: 262 From: louisville ky Registered: Apr 2011
I agree the cost does run up mine ended up being allot more than I expected. As far as the trans qwikgta I have had a getrag behind mine for nine years with no issues. I think allot of people misunderstand why we put v8’s in fieros its more about looks and bragging rights than about speed. I have said it a hundred time there are better ¼ mile cars than the fiero, so if you want a dragster start with a different car. I saw Archie is still using the vette crank pulley. I was under the impression the 4.3 single belt pulleys fit, and would take allot less room in front.
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06:31 PM
RCR Member
Posts: 4416 From: Shelby Twp Mi Registered: Sep 2002
I saw Archie is still using the vette crank pulley. I was under the impression the 4.3 single belt pulleys fit, and would take allot less room in front.
The 5.3L LS4 balancer is right up against the block is the most compact you can get. I extensively modified the LS4 water pump and made custom Alternator and AC brackets, but was able to get everything within the stock frame rail on the passenger side using the F40. I did move the factory frame indention on the driver side rail back 3/4" to allow better clearance for the transmission.
The nice thing about the LS4, is the block is about 3/16 to 1/4" longer than the RWD blocks at the rear where the Metric pattern actually protrudes from the RWD pattern. This means that with a thin adapter to put the RWD crank flange flush with the adapter plate, you can treat any RWD LS(x) base engines (except the early truck engines with a significantly longer crank flange) the same as an LS4. You could even replace the LS4 at a later date with a larger cube RWD engine and only have the engine shift about 1/8" to the passenger side (notice I left room on the PS frame rail). Everything else would swap over as well, so all you really need would be the short block.
The other nice this is the LS4 drop outs are dirt cheap. The metric bellhousing and lack of a starter provision greatly reduce their use for engine swaps which drives the price down. I purchased an 18K mile 2007 LS4/4T65e-hd with all accessories, harness and ecm for $1000. Not bad for an aluminum entry level LS(x) engine.
very impressive fiero guru, I wish i had your machining skills. that front pully is a much better set up than i have, but unfortunatly was't available when i did mine. just a note i did a quick search and they do make an underdrive pulley to fit as well if space is still tight.
very impressive fiero guru, I wish i had your machining skills. that front pully is a much better set up than i have, but unfortunatly was't available when i did mine. just a note i did a quick search and they do make an underdrive pulley to fit as well if space is still tight.
can't wait to see it done
BTW, where is your build thread? And did you use the stock mechanical pump, or an electrical one?
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10:38 PM
Jun 16th, 2011
LS1swap Member
Posts: 1181 From: McHenry,IL.USA Registered: Jan 2001
even though I consider LSx engines efficient (for what they are) I think people are starting to wakeup and realize gas is expensive and not about to get any cheaper
who knows it could be something else, but I'm having a hard time guessing what?
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01:09 PM
Fieroking Member
Posts: 2150 From: Coeur D Alene Idaho USA Registered: Jun 2002
There are other motor swaps that are faster, cheaper and better fitting than the LX motor....The 3800 I would say take the majority of the swaps going on these days.....
I would add that LX swaps are also expensive and appeal to a select audience.I believe that Archie has done quite a few of them but they can end up being big buck swaps. The majority of us here are looking for the max for the min hence the many 3800's, 4.9L, 3400, 3500, 3900, Ecotecs, etc. LS V8 swaps are great if they fit your budget.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
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05:28 PM
dratts Member
Posts: 8373 From: Coeur d' alene Idaho USA Registered: Apr 2001
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: I would add that LX swaps are also expensive and appeal to a select audience.I believe that Archie has done quite a few of them but they can end up being big buck swaps. The majority of us here are looking for the max for the min hence the many 3800's, 4.9L, 3400, 3500, 3900, Ecotecs, etc. LS V8 swaps are great if they fit your budget.
I don't know if I'd classify Archie's LSx installs as the general baseline for cost. Nor would I put Ecotecs in the same cost range as the 3800, 4.9, 3.4, 3500, or 3900. I don't think any of the completed Ecotec swaps were done that cheap. Also, a very large number of the 4.9, and the 3800/3.4/etc… V6 swaps were done at home, and not paying someone else to do all the labor. While on the other hand, the majority of current LSx swaps were done by Archie or with Archie's kit. There's a huge difference in cost when you're buying an $8000 crate motor vs. installing a 120K mile engine you got off eBay for $300. If one guy was doing most all the 3800 swaps, and you had to buy a brand new crate motor from GM to install, the discussion would be a bit different.
My LS4 swap won't be anywhere near the cost of installing an LS3 at Archie's shop in the end, but there's only so much room in a Fiero engine bay, and most people don't want to deal with all the little details to make stuff fit properly. They want to get it in and running as quickly as possible. And the V6 swaps that have been done to death are great for that.
