So, I know this is a bad idea, you don’t need to tell me that. But say this hypothetical situation happened. I was going down a highway and some kids (well I'm a kid, to most of you on here) in a srt 4 neon wanted to give it a go. I heard his turbo blow off earlier, so maybe its modified. We started at about 80 and I stopped at about 120. It happened a few more times and he kept beating me. I'm running a 87 gt; 3900 with a 4t65e; in town gears and stock 2.8 air box. I should be a hair lighter and just as much power. What’s up with that? Any ideas?

Matt

quote Originally posted by MaddMatt: So, I know this is a bad idea, you don’t need to tell me that. But say this hypothetical situation happened. I was going down a highway and some kids (well I'm a kid, to most of you on here) in a srt 4 neon wanted to give it a go. I heard his turbo blow off earlier, so maybe its modified. We started at about 80 and I stopped at about 120. It happened a few more times and he kept beating me. I'm running a 87 gt; 3900 with a 4t65e; in town gears and stock 2.8 air box. I should be a hair lighter and just as much power. What’s up with that? Any ideas? Matt

230- 240hp in the 3900, if tuned right maybe a "few" more. "265" stock in the srt4 (its been proven that dodge underrated its numbers) if its been modified, id not be surprised if he was pushnng 300 or more.

I had a friend that had an SRT and it was bad!! I never thought a Neon could go that fast that quick. He talked about changing the turbo out on it but wrapped it around a tree before that happened. He bought a second one and rolled it, LOL. He now is driving a old Beetle. Dont mess with the neon unless you got more than what you have now.

Upgrade to the 3800 SC with a few bolt ons and you won't have this problem. You also won't have a million dummy electronics behind your seat.

quote Originally posted by MaddMatt: So, I know this is a bad idea, you don’t need to tell me that. But say this hypothetical situation happened. I was going down a highway and some kids (well I'm a kid, to most of you on here) in a srt 4 neon wanted to give it a go. I heard his turbo blow off earlier, so maybe its modified. We started at about 80 and I stopped at about 120. It happened a few more times and he kept beating me. I'm running a 87 gt; 3900 with a 4t65e; in town gears and stock 2.8 air box. I should be a hair lighter and just as much power. What’s up with that? Any ideas? Matt

The "hair lighter" isn't a big deal on the highway, it's more about having enough power to overcome the drag. Thus the Neon whooped you.

I suggest you lower the car, if you haven't done so.

Anyway, there's no reason to downgrade to the ancient 3800. A 3800 makes about the same power as a naturally aspirated 3900, but it needs a supercharger to do it. That really doesn't sound like an upgrade.

quote Originally posted by L67: Upgrade to the 3800 SC with a few bolt ons and you won't have this problem. You also won't have a million dummy electronics behind your seat.

why? just bolt a turbo to that 3900, can easly pull some serious numbers from the newer 60deg engines, and thats already in his car....

boost it and say goodbye to that neon

quote Originally posted by pmbrunelle: Anyway, there's no reason to downgrade to the ancient 3800. A 3800 makes about the same power as a naturally aspirated 3900, but it needs a supercharger to do it. That really doesn't sound like an upgrade.

It makes 40 more torque at those ratings, that alone is a big deal. Pulley, cam, tune, and the 3900 doesn't stand a chance. Turbo a 3800, make 400+ hp. Turbo a 3900, break a rod. Right Joseph? Do whatever you want, I've already been there and beaten a stage 2 Turbo Neon. What the hell do I know right?

The fastest N/A V6 on the quarter mile list is a 3900 and with some recent upgrades will hopefully be in the 12's, still N/A.

quote Originally posted by L67: It makes 40 more torque at those ratings, that alone is a big deal. Pulley, cam, tune, and the 3900 doesn't stand a chance. Turbo a 3800, make 400+ hp. Turbo a 3900, break a rod. Right Joseph? Do whatever you want, I've already been there and beaten a stage 2 Turbo Neon. What the hell do I know right?

That 3900 broke due to tuning, not because of an inherent 3900 problem.

You really should stop sticking your nose in the 60 degree V6 threads.

It broke because of its static compression, its tuning, and its inherent design. It's easy for you to sit behind your computer and talk all day brunelle, I'm still waiting for you to get your hands dirty. I was racing the "most powerful" 60 degree V6 of the time before you joined this forum.

[This message has been edited by L67 (edited 09-19-2011).]

quote Originally posted by L67: It broke because of its static compression, its tuning, and its inherent design. It's easy for you to sit behind your computer and talk all day brunelle, I'm still waiting for you to get your hands dirty. I was racing the "most powerful" 60 degree V6 of the time before you joined this forum.

So because Joseph's custom engine had way high compression all other 3900s are the same way?

Yeah, it's very easy to talk when what you say makes sense.

quote Originally posted by pmbrunelle: So because Joseph's custom engine had way high compression all other 3900s are the same way?

Not at all.

quote Originally posted by L67: Not at all.

Well then, don't imply that anyone who turbocharges a 3900 will result in Joseph's result.

quote Originally posted by L67: Not at all.

So are you saying the 3900's have to high compression or not? Just in case though, I used to run a turbo saturn back in the day. Saturn DOHC's run 9.5 compression and people boosted those left and right (myself included) The general rule was that the stock engine would break around 250-275 WHP (still on 9.5) I had one myself btw, course I only ran 4 PSI and never had a problem after 15,000 miles of beating the hell out of it. Anyways, even the guys that run forged bottom ends some still kept the comp up.

I've seen honda's btw with compression in the 11+ range with boost still. I've heard over and over again that in todays day and age, if you know what you are doing with tuning you can run high compression and boost.

quote Originally posted by pmbrunelle: Well then, don't imply that anyone who turbocharges a 3900 will result in Joseph's result.

I was implying that using the 3900 as a boost alternative is a poor decision when the 3800 exists. Try throwing 20 lbs of boost at it, see what happens.

If the OP doesn't want to use boost, he's going to have a hard time catching that Neon. Matt's local to me, and I've heard from others that he thought his car was "fast". Sounds like today was in sorts an eye opener.

Coo: Yes.

http://realfierotech.com/ph...opic.php?f=4&t=17503

quote Originally posted by L67: I was implying that using the 3900 as a boost alternative is a poor decision when the 3800 exists. Try throwing 20 lbs of boost at it, see what happens. If the OP doesn't want to use boost, he's going to have a hard time catching that Neon. Matt's local to me, and I've heard from others that he thought his car was "fast". Sounds like today was in sorts an eye opener. Coo: Yes. http://realfierotech.com/ph...opic.php?f=4&t=17503

He doesn't need 20 psi of boost to beat a stock-ish SRT-4 with a 3900. For that sort of very high power that you're thinking of though (you never thought anyone would want a "moderate" build?), a factory boosted engine definitely makes for a simpler starting point though.

If OP doesn't want to use boost, then the 3800 will be slower than what he has now.

[This message has been edited by pmbrunelle (edited 09-19-2011).]

quote Originally posted by pmbrunelle: (you never thought anyone would want a "moderate" build?)

I've never understood why people install a turbo and then only run 10lbs of boost, no. I suppose "go big or go home" has gotten to my head over the years. But you're right, if the OP wanted to stick with NA, the 3900 would be faster for sure. Edit: But that's not going to catch the SRT.

[This message has been edited by L67 (edited 09-19-2011).]

i dont know what the attraction of the 3900 is .is it lighter than a 3800? i know it is a newer design , but it just seems like a lot of work for little gain .i think too many people look at the 3800sc hp rating of 240 stock and think that isnt so great .but then if you look at the 1/4 mile times these motors pull without any mods and you know GM was just keeping insurance company's happy .i am all for doing stuff that is different ( only ecotecs for my car ) but if different is just more work for no gain why bother? and one other thing: i am pretty sure that a SRT4 is lighter than a 3900 equipped fiero .

Chill! no need to start a war.

I was just wondering if the 3900 was off or the neon was really that fast (using stock numbers, it should have been close, I thought). I would rather have a NA over boost any day, if I wanted more power I would have swapped a L92 (I could not find a 3.6 at a scrap yard that was not driven to death for the price of my 3.9). Dropping is kind of a bad idea for me; I have speed bumps at my apt and can’t make it up my girlfriend’s driveway as it is.

Find me a NA 6 or 4 that can keep up, I have yet to take it to a track but it should be near 12.5 in the 1/4. Find a na 6 that can to that at 2500#, there are only a few. I am not super-fast, but for what I am its good enough for me, now pull that boost off your boat anchor and bring it. The 3900 is lighter and has a lower cg. There is a reason gm killed the 3800.

Good day to you. Matt

Edit: sorry, lost my cool. my bad. What I mean is any fool can boost, but I would rather have displacement (3.9 to 4.2+?) and not idle below 2 grand.

[This message has been edited by MaddMatt (edited 09-19-2011).]

......... BWAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA! Hilarious.

"Good day to you."

quote Originally posted by L67: ......... BWAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA! Hilarious. "Good day to you."

Well played sir............ well played.

I am curious to see your results at the track so I can get a comparison. For your information, I have 3.73 gears, 2,500rpm stall, long tube headers, 3 inch exhaust, custom 3400 cam with .610'' lift, northstar throttle body and the newer non variable intake. All that got me to 13.35 but I'm sure it had more in it with the tune. I have since upgraded the brakes to hopefully power brake better and get off the line and installed thinner head gaskets. I will retune and try for 12's. It is not as easy as some want to say to hit 12's.
For the record the slowest 3800sc is a 14.51 at 94mph.

Matt, you're running a stock PCM? Does it keep the VVT and all that fancy jazz or did you lock the cam like others here have done? I think people with running 3900s need to dyno their cars so we can compare between them. I have a feeling a lot of power can be lost by "making it work" in a Fiero.

quote Originally posted by MaddMatt: So, I know this is a bad idea, you don’t need to tell me that. But say this hypothetical situation happened. I was going down a highway and some kids (well I'm a kid, to most of you on here) in a srt 4 neon wanted to give it a go. I heard his turbo blow off earlier, so maybe its modified. We started at about 80 and I stopped at about 120. It happened a few more times and he kept beating me. I'm running a 87 gt; 3900 with a 4t65e; in town gears and stock 2.8 air box. I should be a hair lighter and just as much power. What’s up with that? Any ideas? Matt

He was probably lighter, and you dont make nearly the torque he does.

Even a lightly modded SRT4 will pull away from a high 12 second 3800SC car on the expressway..... I raced a few with my old old SC setup back in 06/07.

http://www.streetfire.net/v...o-vs-SRT4_166711.htm

[This message has been edited by darkhorizon (edited 09-19-2011).]

I'm looking at getting on the speedway strip here at Charlotte (if I can). I have kept it stock, per the 07 impalla 9c1 (lz8). As far as the computers know it is still in the impala. I do want to take it to a shop to get a good flash on it, I heard that some people were able to get it over 250. The vvt, I think, lets get the wide torque band which should give it more power. The 12.5 is baised off the weight and power, but at best its a guess. I noticed that the trans seems to eat a lot of power (miss/slopy shifting), I'm hopeing its because of the flash on the tcm. None the less its a hole lot more fun then the 2.8. What are you doing on fule? Im about doing 25/35 with agressive driving.
Matt

quote I would rather have a NA over boost any day,

lolwat?

Peak HP numbers mean almost nothing. Compare a L67 dyno graph to the 3900 dyno graph for the power curve.

I think you will struggle to run 13's

------------------
Turbo 3800 E85 5spd spec5
11.53@126.7

I found a video..

http://www.streetfire.net/v...o-vs-SRT4_166711.htm

"Anyway, there's no reason to downgrade to the ancient 3800."


Let us know when the 3900 finds the credentials of one of the finest engines ever built.

I haven't calculated fuel economy but I'm fairly certain I get more than 30.

its pointless to argue the 60deg vs 90degree, it seems *alot*(not all) are the people are biast and refuse to admit another engine could replace the 3800's because that would make their swaps "outdated", im doing a 60degree swap, i have nothing againts the 3800's, just wanted something diffrent in my car then everyone else has done, and the 3500 seemed like a good option for me, im not going "all out race" but will be boosting it... hope to get about 350hp... will be a "weekend driver"

you all knew this was coming by if you can't beat them join them why now just put a srt-4 turbo in your fiero? has been a plan of mine for a while not that i'm a mopar fan but love the aftermarket of the srt4's and would make for a great swap in my opion

I argue because when someone claims that with a pulley, cam and tune on a 3800sc the naturally aspirated 3900 doesn't stand a chance it hurts my feelings. The quarter mile list shows different.

quote Originally posted by joshua riedl: I argue because when someone claims that with a pulley, cam and tune on a 3800sc the naturally aspirated 3900 doesn't stand a chance it hurts my feelings. The quarter mile list shows different.

Horsepower
The 3900 V6 engine was used in a variety of vehicles that had different power requirements. The horsepower of the engine varied based on the model of car that the engine was installed in. The Buick Lucerne engine has 219 horsepower at 5,700 revolutions per minute (rpm), and the Lucerne LGD has 227 horsepower at 5,700 rpm. The Pontiac G6 Convertible has 222 horsepower at 5,600 rpm. The Chevy Impala Bin 4 Emissions LGD has 224 horsepower at 5,700 rpm, and the Bin 5 has 233 horsepower at 5,600 rpm. An LGD engine is a flexible fuel engine that can operate on a blend of gasoline and up to 85 percent ethanol. It is often referred to as E85 capable. Bin 4 Emissions and Bin 5 Emission refers to the level of emissions the vehicle will produce based on American regulations.

Torque
Similar to the variations in horsepower, the 3900 V6 engine also has torque variations by model. The Buick Lucerne features 234 foot-pounds at 3,200 rpm and the Lucerne LGD features 237 foot-pounds at 3,200 rpm. The Chevy Impala Bin 4 features 224 foot-pounds at 5,700 rpm, and the Bin 5 features 233 foot-pounds at 5,600 rpm. The G6 Convertible features 222 foot-pounds at 5,600 rpm.
Read more: G.M. 3900 V-6 Engine Specifications | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/list_74...s.html#ixzz1YX9QTLsc.................................


Those numbers do not add up to a mildly modded 3800SC, nor even the newer stock 3800SC with some 265 HP. The HP numbers are up on my 3800NA by 20, but a also a bit lower in torque. I'll take the more reliable and easier to deal with 3800. I have no whine about a 3900, just do not see any big improvement.

[This message has been edited by weaselbeak (edited 09-20-2011).]

quarter mile list shows different

quote Originally posted by joshua riedl: quarter mile list shows different

joshua riedl: 13.355 @ 103.85mph (3900 V6 / 4t65e)

Lildevil: 11.74 @ 115mph (SC3800-II, 2.75" pulley, XP HOT cam, DHP PCM, ZZP Intercooler / 4T65)
MNFiero3800: 11.92 @ 114mph (SC3800-II, Stage II intercooler, Stage I TB, cam, headers, DHP PCM, 2.8" pulley / 4T65E)
Nosrac: 12.017 @ 111.61mph (3800SC, S2 intercooler, 2.8" pulley, 42.5lb's, N* TB, Pacesetter headers, VS Cam, DHP Powrtuners / 4T65E-HD / Street Radials)
lowfierogt: 12.93 @ 105mph (SC3800-II, custom chip, headers, 3.25" pulley / 4T60E)
TimGully: 12.90 @ 109mph (SC3800-II, cam and pulley / ???)
BadgerBob: 12.89 @ 99mph (SC3800-II, roller rockers, 3.4" pulley / 4T65E)
yellowfever: 12.8 @ 108mph (SC3800-II / 5-spd)
SOULCRUSHER: 12.38 @ 110mph (SC3800-II, 3.0" pulley, XPHOT cam, custom PCM, 105lb valve springs, SS intercooler / 4T60E-HD)

You were saying?

I ran a 12.6 @ 108 with high mileage l67 with just 3.4 pulley

------------------
Turbo 3800 E85 5spd spec5
11.53@126.7

Only three of those are verified times. Look at the two verified times above and below mine. Both are lightly modded 3800sc. The previous statement was cam, pulley and tune. Both those cars have those and both are comparable ( time wise) to me. I stand by what I said.

There's a lot more to making quick 1/4 mile times, than just horsewpower. In fact, horsepower has pretty much nothing to do with it. It's mostly a pointless number that people like to use to brag with.

A lot of people who talk about 1/4 times also just want to use numbers for bragging, and they have no idea how to actually drive a car in a 1/4 mile drag race.

If you were trying to make a point, you should try to point at some actual facts, and not 1/4 mile times of random people driving. It's not like Bob Glidden drove all those cars at the same track, on the same day, under the equal conditions, and got those times. Not to mention you're the ONLY 3900 car listed on there. Even if it were faster than all the 3800s, you wouldn't be enough data to prove anything.

The LZ9 3.9 is at most stock rated at 240 hp/240 lb-ft, while the Series II L67 3800SC is stock rated at 240 hp/280 lb-ft. Everything else being equal, the LZ9 will lose.

quote Originally posted by joshua riedl: I don't wan't to call BS because I believe you did run that time but this is the closest car to your time on the list FieroGTguy: 12.694 @ 106.24mph (SC3800-II, XP cam, 3.25" pulley, WCF headers, Intense LSD, DHP PCM / 4T65E) More than just a 3.4 pulley

Manual trans adds 50whp, at least.