Originally posted by Niterrorz: if you mated them to the same type of trans why wouldnt the 350 beat the 3800 everytime? of course we are assuming you have 100% traction or at least someone who know how to launch. any answer is welcome as long as i get some insight into this phenomena
I think its been said somewhere in here, that it is the powerband of each engine differs. Depending on where each engine gets to peak HP/TQ numbers would make a difference. I think.
I now humbly bow out... edit: after owning PAGE 5!
[This message has been edited by 1988holleyformula (edited 01-18-2012).]
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05:28 PM
DL10 Member
Posts: 2350 From: Bloomington IL Registered: Jun 2000
I think one thing that really bothers the 3800 owners is the fact that the general public tend to be more impressed with any V-8 install........... even a dirty low HP V-8, than they are with a better looking and higher HP V-6 install......
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05:55 PM
Alex4mula Member
Posts: 7405 From: Canton, MI US Registered: Dec 1999
I think one thing that really bothers the 3800 owners is the fact that the general public tend to be more impressed with any V-8 install........... even a dirty low HP V-8, than they are with a better looking and higher HP V-6 install......
LOL! That is true. I take my finished and I think nicely looking 3800sc to local cruise nights and almost no one takes a look. Specially all the old school guys you find in FL. I guess they think is an import for how it sounds. The V8 always gets a crowd when I arrive.
------------------ Red: TPI V8 + 6-Speed White: 3800SC auto 304rwHP/366rwTQ
LOL! That is true. I take my finished and I think nicely looking 3800sc to local cruise nights and almost no one takes a look. Specially all the old school guys you find in FL. I guess they think is an import for how it sounds. The V8 always gets a crowd when I arrive.
I think that might be because it is a bit more impressive to stuff 8 cylinders into a small space than a V6 that looks like it came from the factory that way.
This whole 3800 vs V8 thing is just rediculous. I don't want a 3800, nor do I care about 3800's, I have a V8.
3800 guys.. Get out of V8 threads, seriously, theres a reason why its call "post-whoring".
If the 3800 guys got out of the V-8 Threads then they would be on page 5 in 2 days with no replies.....I can say when I finally get my LS4 going and become a "V-8 Guy" I will still post the same as I do now....
ok gotta ask why are the 3800 owners claiming they are better than lets say a 350? i mean from a power to weight ratio point of view does it really matter how many cyl you have? i dont know how much a 3800 sc weighs but lets say you take a 350 beings all cast iron and add the adapter plate in its prolly gonna weight quite a bit more than a 3800 sc but put out more power at the same time. if you mated them to the same type of trans why wouldnt the 350 beat the 3800 everytime? of course we are assuming you have 100% traction or at least someone who know how to launch.
im not saying either is better my first build was a 4.9 and ive been able to drive it once around the block (until i finish the exhaust) and im starting on my 3800 build, im just trying to figure out what the pissing contest is all about.
any answer is welcome as long as i get some insight into this phenomena
It all started way back when, typical Guy stuff my engine is better than yours bragging turned to an argument.
Which is better, first define better or use Simple math 3800 > 350 ...... lol
Really tho, just do whatever floats your boat for whatever reason turns you on and enjoy it.
Originally posted by DL10: I think one thing that really bothers the 3800 owners is the fact that the general public tend to be more impressed with any V-8 install........... even a dirty low HP V-8, than they are with a better looking and higher HP V-6 install......
This man speaks the truth! Nothing pulls toothless rednecks out of the woods like a SBC Fiero. The general public thinks the Fiero's a cheap piece of junk to begin with, they're not impressed with a Buick engine or any other engine choice. If you're so poor that you're driving a 25 year old car, built on 30 year old architecture, with a modern day engine, you're probably not the kind of person worth knowing, you're cheap. But installing a 50 year old engine, in a 25 year old car, built on 30 year old architecture, pulls the 'billies out of the hills like fly's to honey. Be prepared to impress every layman driving a work truck at the gas stations! I know this because I've driven one of the better SBC Fiero swaps on this board.
"Hey is that there a SBC Cheby?! I thought I heard it listenen out mah weender." *insert chew*
Say I'm wrong.
This is one occasion I'll have to cite Shaun Hammitt, I can appreciate what he said because I have observed the same phenomenon on my own.
quote
Originally posted by Shaun at RFT - Got Boost? PK86 Doesn't
As far as the car show? Let me tell you a quick story. It was the dyno day here in Daytona like 4 years ago now or so, when V8Archie and others dynoed their fieros. Well because V8Archie did such a poor job organizing it, the day was double booked with an Impala car club. Not a big deal, it got worked out so everyone could still dyno. However there was a skyline at the shop but it was an R33. It was nice looking, but you could tell the typical older crowd had no idea what they were looking at.
I remember hearing from them how that little ricer would get worked by even the slowest impala there, and the fiero guys were talking crap about it too. I knew what the car was and what it had done, so I just laughed under my breath and kept my mouth shut. Finally the shop owner came over and started talking about it. He said it was making around 800 whp on race gas and said he would race any car there. Impala guys were looking at the tires claiming how he wouldn't hook up and how he would still prob lose cause he doesn't have a lot of tq. Owner said it was all wheel drive and had a sequential gearbox. Those typical old chevy crowd shut up real quick. Then started admitting that it probably was fast.
That skyline was nicer looking, then all the fieros and impalas in that parking lot. It was also making a **** ton more horsepower too. However it wasn't going to win any trophy's at "typical old crowd" car shows. Bias from them older crowd guys would prevent this, so why even enter it??? Then again, I doubt the car was built to impress typical old crowd chevy people anyways.
It's the purpose of building the car in the first place. The OP asked about 1/4 mile times. SBC Fiero's suck (relatively) at the track, end of story. So the only utility the SBC has going for it is to impress people who think installing a SBC into a Fiero is harder than it really it. The LS engine is a different story all together.
Why is there all this "hate". Well it's because old fellows think they're awesome, when they're not. You talk to any SBC Fiero owner, and they'll brag about outrunning anything on the road. It's denial or apathy in the highest form. I've learned to live with it, more than half of all Fiero owners exhibit the same behavior, even with the 2.8 behind the auto. It paints a bad picture for everyone in the hobby, including me. It's like have a retarded cousin.
Dude... I agree with most of what you just said there, but you have a rare talent for making people want to hate you for the way you say it. LOL
Do you really do it just for the reaction or are you really that bitter? You even quoted Shaun, who was also speaking truthfully... But it's just Shaun so you'll get negs for even posting it. *sigh*
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03:31 PM
secre7skw3rl Member
Posts: 63 From: Grafton, Ohio Registered: Mar 2011
So I was gonna build a 3800SC for my Fastback, but the more I think of it, I want to do an LS motor. Still shopping around. Could be a 5.7, a 6.0 or a 6.2. What kind of times are the LS fieros running at the track?
I would like to say that the OP may have inadvertantly started this as a 3800SC VS. V8 thread.
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03:37 PM
PFF
System Bot
dratts Member
Posts: 8373 From: Coeur d' alene Idaho USA Registered: Apr 2001
Originally posted by carbon: Do you really do it just for the reaction or are you really that bitter?
For the most part reaction. It's my day off. I opened this thread, chuckled to myself, thought about the counter points, made lunch, walked the dog, smoked my pipe, made up my mind to play devils advocate and typed that up. I'm about as chill as Roger Garrison at Chuck E cheese.
quote
Originally posted by dratts: If it was a V8 versus V6 thread I would ask which do you prefer, an iron V6 or an aluminum V8?
You need to get to a drag strip. I wanna see what your car will do.
[This message has been edited by L67 (edited 01-19-2012).]
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03:48 PM
engine man Member
Posts: 5309 From: Morriston FL Registered: Mar 2006
the 2 biggest problems with a Ls or SBC is getting the transaxle to handle the torque and need of adaptor the SBC or Ls V8 can make as much and even more power than a 3800 V6 and stay together all day long .V8 Archie will tell you not to use a 400 sbc and why due to to much torque down low in the rpm for the transaxle now you can all scream , whine ,cry & b1tch but thats the way it is in my opinion
[This message has been edited by engine man (edited 01-19-2012).]
I'm going to have both, or if you want a exact comparison, my friend is going to have the other. I fully expect my friend's L67/4T65eHD setup to beat my 4.9/4T60e...but I'll try damnit!
What will be interesting is to see what happens with a 4.9/4T60e vs L36/F23.
My V8 is for sound, show, and a nice cruse down the road. Doesn't mean it's slow, but It won't be any record breaker. If I want to win races and be fast, I'll turbo the 3800 next to my F23.
[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 01-19-2012).]
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03:58 PM
dratts Member
Posts: 8373 From: Coeur d' alene Idaho USA Registered: Apr 2001
You need to get to a drag strip. I wanna see what your car will do.
Like engine man says. It's the transaxle. I'm building my third transaxle now. I want to see what it will do too. The car it's in has 11" longer wheelbase than a stock Fiero and weighs 3400lbs with 1/2 tank of gas, so we really can't compare it to a regular Fiero. A Fiero with a drivetrain like this would seriously kick my ass.
[This message has been edited by dratts (edited 01-22-2012).]
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04:02 PM
rcp builders Member
Posts: 736 From: north port, Fl. Registered: Apr 2007
Again it goes back to not many v8's being built up to put the numbers down but they are out there. I would say the video I posted shows quite clearly that the v8's could put up impressive numbers. The biggest thing is people get a hold of a Gen1 350 and alot just assume they have horse power in stock form (170hp on average). But, throw some time and MONEY at it and 450hp is easily had. Ray
Edit to fix link
[This message has been edited by rcp builders (edited 01-19-2012).]
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04:39 PM
mptighe Member
Posts: 3321 From: Houston, TX Registered: Aug 2009
L67 I must admit you have balls to quote Shaun Vomitt here on PFF using a PontiacKid put down thread. Shows that you are one heck of an instigator .... Good way to have more NEGS flying your way. As for shanna's opinion who f'n cares !!!
OK this does bring up one very specific idea. Everything is relative.
For the most part, I would say a lot of the V8 guys were muscle car guys. They had an idea of what fast is / was and want to be true to that iconic idea.
I would also say that the 3800 guys are more like the Import Tuner crowd. They want speed too but see it in different aspects.
I hate to say it, but the Muscle Car guys will never fully respect the Import Tuner guys and vice versa. I happen to be in between these polar opposites. I see how this is highly subjective, and honestly I grew up in between these eras, so I don't have any identity tied up in it. Basically, I'll drive my 3800 Fiero but I'll respect anyone for their choices.
L67 I must admit you have balls to quote Shaun Vomitt here on PFF using a PontiacKid put down thread. Shows that you are one heck of an instigator .... Good way to have more NEGS flying your way. As for shanna's opinion who f'n cares !!!
I would discredit the man as much as you do really. He has posted some really good information over on RFT and has also done a few nice write up. Also he has built a nice 3.4 turbo. So you really do have to give him some credit. I will also admit I do find what he post funny and there seems to be a little bit of truth to them...
If you want to race a car, don't build a Fiero. If you do want to build a Fiero, then it won't matter what motor you pick, you have to have a goal, select your motor based on that goal and remember your going to need a lot of money to do it right, and to fix things as they brake. Some folks who race do so to be the best 12.00 guy out there, others are shooting for 10.50 as a goal. Some only care about reaction time, and trap speed.
Not everyone who does a motor swap in a Fiero is looking to take the car to the track, or dyno to prove how fast they are. You can actually do it because you want to drive a car with a new motor, one that starts every time, and is FUN to drive.
Any thread that has "V8" in it must make a point of clearing up the "SBC" and "LS" based motors, most of everything the SC3800 crowd says about the iron block SBC is correct, but the LSx motor is not a SBC.
If you have the money, a 2.0L ecotech could smoke a SC3800 and it would be a 4 cylinder doing it. Its not about the number of cylinders, its about how its built.
So, if your on the fence about a SC3800 or a LSX motor, then you only need to ask how much money you have. If you have < $10000 to spend then go SC3800. If you have >$15000 to spend then go LS. but you will enjoy either motor and that is the bottom line..........
Originally posted by Fiero_Fan_88: I would discredit the man as much as you do really. He has posted some really good information over on RFT and has also done a few nice write up. Also he has built a nice 3.4 turbo. So you really do have to give him some credit. I will also admit I do find what he post funny and there seems to be a little bit of truth to them... Heres one for your V8 Danyel - http://realfierotech.com/ph...opic.php?f=4&t=17565
I use to go there and get all worked up about his posts before.... now knowing he's a retarded child.. I just have pity for him ...poor guy looks wimpy. I wont be reading your link and neither will waste my time going over there to read his nonsense posts LOL. His SUPER 3.4 TURBO FIERO IS NOT EVEN RUNNING ... LOL
...by the way that 12 sec time was with a stop watch AS MENTIONED... on a amature track not far from here... this summer I will post vids and timeslips from Pont Rouge Drag Strip... will have a REAL 1/4 mile time ... I'm not too eager for this knowing.... I will probably scrap my tranny ... but a mans got to do what a mans got to do to see what this V8 can do ...
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05:31 PM
qwikgta Member
Posts: 4670 From: Virginia Beach, VA Registered: Jan 2001
OK this does bring up one very specific idea. Everything is relative.
For the most part, I would say a lot of the V8 guys were muscle car guys. They had an idea of what fast is / was and want to be true to that iconic idea.
I would also say that the 3800 guys are more like the Import Tuner crowd. They want speed too but see it in different aspects.
I hate to say it, but the Muscle Car guys will never fully respect the Import Tuner guys and vice versa. I happen to be in between these polar opposites. I see how this is highly subjective, and honestly I grew up in between these eras, so I don't have any identity tied up in it. Basically, I'll drive my 3800 Fiero but I'll respect anyone for their choices.
THis is a very good point. When I got my first Fiero in 1990 (87 GT) it was the first V6 car I had owned. I had owned several V8 Pontiacs and Olds (and one Dodge Dart swinger 340), and I would say if I had to define myself it would be a Muscle Car Guy. But if I look at the cars I've owned since 1990 I've only had two or three with V8's. Most have been V6 or 4 bangers. The days of V8's in every car are gone, and an entire generation has grown up without the V8's. With fuel prices as they have been for the last few decades, its the tuner crowd that have taken over and with it, the idea of a "V8 or nothing" has been lost.
I would bet if you took a poll of the age of the V8 owners vs. the age of the SC3800 you would see that the V8 guys are older. Yes, there will be exceptions, but Im just saying as a average. Maybe we should start a new thead and have everyone post their age too.
not trying to push any buttons but you L67 need a women,man or what ever your heart desires...or maybe just a friend ...i feel a hug coming on....and just remember life isnt measured by the number of breath u take but measured by the moments that take your breath away.....i myself need a hug now
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05:43 PM
L67 Member
Posts: 1792 From: Winston Salem, NC Registered: Jun 2010
Awww thanks. Don't assume I'm bitter like everyone else, I'm one of the happiest clams on this spinning rock, and have plenty of the resources you mentioned. Although, recently, I need a few new f*** buddies. Taking applications - females only.
Originally posted by qwikgta: I would bet if you took a poll of the age of the V8 owners vs. the age of the SC3800 you would see that the V8 guys are older. Yes, there will be exceptions, but Im just saying as a average. Maybe we should start a new thead and have everyone post their age too.
I'm one of the exceptions. I'm 19, and I love my V8. I don't like import tuners either. I wouldn't like driving around sounding like a weed whacker with my L4 and a fart can. Like I said, I'm building a 3800 as well right now, so we will see.
quote
Originally posted by L67: Taking applications - females only.
Now that's funny. I should do the same thing damnit.
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07:20 PM
L67 Member
Posts: 1792 From: Winston Salem, NC Registered: Jun 2010
the 2 biggest problems with a Ls or SBC is getting the transaxle to handle the torque and need of adaptor the SBC or Ls V8 can make as much and even more power than a 3800 V6 and stay together all day long .V8 Archie will tell you not to use a 400 sbc and why due to to much torque down low in the rpm for the transaxle now you can all scream , whine ,cry & b1tch but thats the way it is in my opinion
But I thought the F40 was supposed to be the answer..I mean if it was once said that a Izusu could handle all the power of the V-8 then I would think a trans that is 20 years newer with zero miles could handle anything that is threw at it...Espically the ones that have been cryoed and has the LSD installed.Your opinion is just another excuse...Also a SBC can be built not to be a torque monster if done right....
Originally posted by qwikgta: I would bet if you took a poll of the age of the V8 owners vs. the age of the SC3800 you would see that the V8 guys are older. Yes, there will be exceptions, but Im just saying as a average. Maybe we should start a new thead and have everyone post their age too.
Great comment.
Rob
This could also explain why the V-8 crowd tends to think that their cars are fast. To them a high 13 second car was fast back in their day but in todays world a high 13 second car is considered slow. This makes alot of since....
Holy Crapoly!!! This tread got out of control quick. LoL I cant imagine that a good V8 wont be fast. I do want speed, but I do want the sound as well. I am sure we can argue V8 VS V6 all day long, so I guess its safe to say its a matter of pref. LoL I was just curious about where they stand at the track...
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08:32 PM
qwikgta Member
Posts: 4670 From: Virginia Beach, VA Registered: Jan 2001
Holy Crapoly!!! This tread got out of control quick. LoL I cant imagine that a good V8 wont be fast. I do want speed, but I do want the sound as well. I am sure we can argue V8 VS V6 all day long, so I guess its safe to say its a matter of pref. LoL I was just curious about where they stand at the track...
Truth is that the "track" is a myth. Yes many do make the occasional trip down the 1320, but most just talk a big game. Those who do run the 1/4 mile build a car so that they can do it over and over again. The only way to get better and faster is to run the 1/4 mile a lot. Try it. everyone who "Thinks" they can just take thier car to the track and run a quick 12 second time slip are fools. You may drive a car on the street, and think its fast, you may leave the "green light" fast and race the guy next to you and play the game of "im not going to let you drive faster then me", but that is not the track. You may have a car that has good pickup, and can go to 50 mph in 6 seconds, but guess what, thats a 14 second car at the track. Lots of people think that their car is fast, and then they go to the track and they find out that they are not as fast as they think they are. See it boils down to this, if you spend $15,000 to put a V8 in your car, and then someone talks you into running at the track, you may run a mid 12 second pass. Then a guy in a SC3800 will run the lane after you. He will run a mid 12 second pass. The SC3800 car only cost $7000 to build, so everyone thinks your an idiot because you spent twice as much and both run mid 12 second times. But who cares. If its all about who has the fastest car, well guess what, no matter how fast you run, someone will run faster, it just takes money and skill. So don't' build a car because you may take it to the track once a year and make 4 pass's. Thats just a waste of time, build a car that you wil have fun in the other 364 days a year. The fact that you are using the 1/4 mile times tells me your a SC3800 guy. Find a good donor motor, and read all the build threads for the SC engine and build you a kick *ss car. Have fun and build your car. V8 guys don't have to ask which one to build, they know in their hearts that only a V8 will do.
Rob
[This message has been edited by qwikgta (edited 01-19-2012).]
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09:32 PM
La fiera Member
Posts: 2274 From: Mooresville, NC Registered: Jun 2008
Formula one cars are V8, Australian Supercars are V8, Indy cars are V8, that other class that only turns left and forced me to take the Speed Channel off also have V8s. I like the V6 in my Fiero but I love a V8 in a Camaro or Firebird! Whatever you decide to do is fine, it is your preference and we have to respect you for that.
These threads are fun. I would actually like to see what some forums years ago had. The versus section. Track runs no street racing. I am not a tuner I am not a muscle car guy. I am a car guy. I can build what I want. You see people like l67 and mustang not really saying anything wrong. This is a lot like a versus come on v8 guys if its not a track car ok. Those like I that want to build somethin cheap and beat the crap out of it. Then build what u want how u want run your times come back and then show what u did. I was gonna do a v6 then issues came about sold that motor. Being around friends and such with nothing but raw v8 knowledge I'm gonna throw a v8 and see what I can do.. IF I want to go back to camaro and mustang I can but if not I got a fun car that I enjoy. I hate seeing people actually get mad and attack each other. Let's be car guys and let our builds talk not a keyboard.
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09:52 PM
MadMark Member
Posts: 2935 From: Owosso, Michigan, USA Registered: Feb 2010
I am going to jump in here against my better judgement. To start out with I own a 3800 SC III / 4T65E-HD Fiero GT. I love my car and the way it drives. It is fast, but I have never taken it to the quarter mile, but I might in the future. However, I have several friends who have V-8 Fiero's. One with an LS-3 another with a 4.9 they are both fast in different ways and they do sound neat and get a lot more looks at car shows than mine. But, so waht. I love my car and drive it like I want to and they love their cars and drive them like they want to.
Let us just respect that we all have different ways to make ourselves happy. And that includes those with 2.8 and 2.5 engines that are perfectly stock and others with different configurations.
Those that are serious racers let them go to the track to see who is fastest. Each to his or her own.
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10:06 PM
dratts Member
Posts: 8373 From: Coeur d' alene Idaho USA Registered: Apr 2001
But I thought the F40 was supposed to be the answer..I mean if it was once said that a Izusu could handle all the power of the V-8 then I would think a trans that is 20 years newer with zero miles could handle anything that is threw at it...Espically the ones that have been cryoed and has the LSD installed.Your opinion is just another excuse...Also a SBC can be built not to be a torque monster if done right....
If you want a transverse stick shift and don't mind the gear ratios I would say go with the f40. The people who really want to put the power to the ground use the 4t65e hd and spend some money to build it right. Except for DH. He did some tuning on his stock tranny which I intend to copy with my built tranny.
Uh, no.
