quote Originally posted by Sigler85GT: simple, torque differences

quote Originally posted by Xyster: In other words, area under the curve. Finally some sense in a thread that has turned to bickering.

Torque differences and the torque curve are not going to make a forced induction V-6 with less horsepower perform “better”.

Torque curve shows you where you get the best acceleration.
Example: a typical N/A V-8 with its torque curve in the lower RPM range will have its best acceleration from 0-60 mph. A forced induction V-6 with its torque in the mid/upper RPM range is going to have its best acceleration 40 t0 100mph. Since we are talking about performance over 1320 feet, If two cars with roughly the same weight, horsepower, and gearing race the N/A V-8 will pull ahead in the first half of the track. The forced induction V-6 will accelerate better at the half track point and catch up to the V-8 and they will cross the line basically door to door. So they will perform nearly identical in the quarter mile. If the V-6 has less horsepower, it is not going to perform “better” in the quarter mile.

The torque differences between the engines are not going to change the power to weight ratio. Power to weight is calculated by weight divided by horsepower. Basic physics. X amount of weight to X amount of horsepower = how fast the weight will move across a known distance. (quarter mile = 1320 feet) . A 300hp engine (regardless of the torque curve) in a 2800 lbs car (total weight) is going to have a power to weight ratio of 9.3 lbs per horsepower (9.3 to 1 ratio) and move the total weight across a specific distance in a specific amount of time.

Or in this case, the 3800 with its flat and stout torque curve is going to hold with the V8 for half of the track given the turbo spools early (which they do with 2valve 3800's), and pull away like a freight train on the eight in the latter section of the track (as we observe).

Still a Fiero.... at the end of the strip.

quote Originally posted by L67: Still a Fiero.... at the end of the strip.

lol, hater.

quote Originally posted by Oreif: Torque differences and the torque curve are not going to make a forced induction V-6 with less horsepower perform “better”. Torque curve shows you where you get the best acceleration. Example: a typical N/A V-8 with its torque curve in the lower RPM range will have its best acceleration from 0-60 mph. A forced induction V-6 with its torque in the mid/upper RPM range is going to have its best acceleration 40 t0 100mph. Since we are talking about performance over 1320 feet, If two cars with roughly the same weight, horsepower, and gearing race the N/A V-8 will pull ahead in the first half of the track. The forced induction V-6 will accelerate better at the half track point and catch up to the V-8 and they will cross the line basically door to door. So they will perform nearly identical in the quarter mile. If the V-6 has less horsepower, it is not going to perform “better” in the quarter mile. The torque differences between the engines are not going to change the power to weight ratio. Power to weight is calculated by weight divided by horsepower. Basic physics. X amount of weight to X amount of horsepower = how fast the weight will move across a known distance. (quarter mile = 1320 feet) . A 300hp engine (regardless of the torque curve) in a 2800 lbs car (total weight) is going to have a power to weight ratio of 9.3 lbs per horsepower (9.3 to 1 ratio) and move the total weight across a specific distance in a specific amount of time.

Forgive me if this is ignorant, but how fast a motor gets to it's peak HP and how long it stays there would make a difference wouldn't it? If you look at a dyno, it shows what kind of curve / peak the engine has. It's not like it's producing the same power throughout the entire range, it varies right? A car that has a faster peak with a longer duration should beat a car that has a slower peak with a shorter duration, even if they produce the same peak horsepower shouldn't it?

quote Originally posted by L67: Or in this case, the 3800 with its flat and stout torque curve is going to hold with the V8 for half of the track given the turbo spools early (which they do with 2valve 3800's), and pull away like a freight train on the eight in the latter section of the track (as we observe). Still a Fiero.... at the end of the strip.

But first we have to agree that the two have to have the same HP/TQ as they line up to the starting line. Then we have to assume that both drivers have a clue how to race a car (reaction time, too much clutch, not enough clutch, wheel spin) and even if this is true, we are still talking about less than .5 second. This could be made up with a missed shift, a late shift or any number of things.

Maybe we should all agree that on any given day, at any given track the two will preform the same (or close enough) given the two cars have the same HP/TQ. We still need to talk about trans, axle ratio, tire size/compound, weather etc.....

When I go to the track, I don't race the guy next to me, I race to get my best time. When I line up against a 400hp 1972 Firebird, or a 500 hp 2005 GTO, its not about beating him, its about running my best race. Sometimes my times are slower than the last, sometimes I set a new personnel best, but thats what its about. Run the race, tune the car, change the tire pressure and then get back out and take another run. Sometimes you go slower and have to "undo" what you did, sometimes the lane prep is bad, or the wx changes and its getting hot.

We should work together and move the whole Fiero community forward not divide our forces in this "Civil Unrest".

Bottom line - Some SC3800 are faster than some LSX, and some LSX are faster than some SC3800 and just leave it alone.

Rob

[This message has been edited by qwikgta (edited 01-26-2012).]

quote Originally posted by Oreif: Torque differences and the torque curve are not going to make a forced induction V-6 with less horsepower perform “better”. Torque curve shows you where you get the best acceleration. Example: a typical N/A V-8 with its torque curve in the lower RPM range will have its best acceleration from 0-60 mph. A forced induction V-6 with its torque in the mid/upper RPM range is going to have its best acceleration 40 t0 100mph. Since we are talking about performance over 1320 feet, If two cars with roughly the same weight, horsepower, and gearing race the N/A V-8 will pull ahead in the first half of the track. The forced induction V-6 will accelerate better at the half track point and catch up to the V-8 and they will cross the line basically door to door. So they will perform nearly identical in the quarter mile. If the V-6 has less horsepower, it is not going to perform “better” in the quarter mile. The torque differences between the engines are not going to change the power to weight ratio. Power to weight is calculated by weight divided by horsepower. Basic physics. X amount of weight to X amount of horsepower = how fast the weight will move across a known distance. (quarter mile = 1320 feet) . A 300hp engine (regardless of the torque curve) in a 2800 lbs car (total weight) is going to have a power to weight ratio of 9.3 lbs per horsepower (9.3 to 1 ratio) and move the total weight across a specific distance in a specific amount of time.

Nothing could be further from the truth in this post.

I wont go into it, but just remember that RPM is the only way a n/a motor will increase airflow into it, aka horsepower. A turbo motor has no relation between RPM and airflow... Basically if a turbo motor is beyond a specific rpm, it is going to be converting as much air and fuel into horsepower as possible, while a V8 has to obtain peak RPMs to reach its optimum power level.

Considering a V8 is at its peak power level for ~%20 of the time its going down the quarter mile, you have to "discount" that peak power number for the times its not pulling in as much air at the lower rpm.

The perfect example of this is the lowly 240horsepower 3800 is able to run a 12.6@108mph behind a 4speed while your 355hp zz4 crate motor struggled to run a 12.2.. with that much more power there should be no issues blowing that away.

If that wasnt enough, I could get into the calculus required to explain it further.

Wasn't there a post that lots of people listed their quarter mile times? Anyone know the link

"The new and improved 1/4 mile list" Personally I would like to see a V6 only thread along with the V8 only thread I started and a V8 vs V6 thread for people who like to argue. We are not all the same except for our love of Fieros and we don't all want the same engine. I am interested in most of the swaps whether I do one or not, but sometimes I just want to look for information about my engine without arguing. My engine choice is right for me, but then I'm kinda strange and it's for sure not right for everybody (maybe nobody) else.

quote Originally posted by BOBBY D: Wasn't there a post that lots of people listed their quarter mile times? Anyone know the link

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...ML/088059-2.html#p74

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Turbo 3800 E85 5spd spec5
11.54@132.7

Hmmmmm DH i don't see that 12.6 in the 1/4 list of a stock 3800SC but i did see a 12.8 in there and not even realy sure thats stock due to some dont list all there mods but like some have said this was a thread about V8 1/4 mile times but like allways the 3800 guys think it is there duty to start taking it off topic and bashing anything thats not a 3800 and the reason 3800 need a blower or turbo is they cant make any power with out forcing the air in due to there crapy 170 cfm flowing stock heads and sure they got low end torque just like a john deer tractor lol

Can someone do the math for me on this one? This is all theoretical of course but would like to know of the possible time and trap speed. The WHP ,tq and car weight are on the printout.



This pic is a few years old but it is a boosted LT1.

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ARCHIES JUNK IS FASTER THAN SHAUNNA'S JUNK
12.3 is faster than a 13.2

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: I wont go into it, but just remember that RPM is the only way a n/a motor will increase airflow into it, aka horsepower. A turbo motor has no relation between RPM and airflow... Basically if a turbo motor is beyond a specific rpm, it is going to be converting as much air and fuel into horsepower as possible, while a V8 has to obtain peak RPMs to reach its optimum power level. The perfect example of this is the lowly 240horsepower 3800 is able to run a 12.6@108mph behind a 4speed while your 355hp zz4 crate motor struggled to run a 12.2.. with that much more power there should be no issues blowing that away.

Nothing could be further from the truth in your post. Or you really are just posting garbage to "stir the pot"

A 240hp 3800 running 12.6??? ROFLMAO!!! There is no way in a stock Fiero that is possible.
A stock 260hp 3800SC in stock Fiero can barely get into the mid 13's and you expect us to believe a 240hp 3800 can go a full second faster?? Sorry but as I stated before a 3800 cannot change physics. Yes the speed at which an engine revs up and how wide the torque band is does have an effect but in the quarter mile you are only talking tenths of seconds not a full second. And not even calculus is going to change that.

A turbo has no relationship between RPM and airflow? Sorry but the RPM of an engine has a relationship with exhaust flow and in BASIC turbocharging a turbos boost is controlled by how fast the exhaust spins it. (yes the size of the turbo and ratio does affect the level of boost as well, But the boost is still controlled by how fast the exhaust spins it)

[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 01-27-2012).]

quote Originally posted by Oreif: Nothing could be further from the truth in your post. Or you really are just posting garbage to "stir the pot" A 240hp 3800 running 12.6??? ROFLMAO!!! There is no way in a stock Fiero that is possible. A stock 260hp 3800SC in stock Fiero can barely get into the mid 13's and you expect us to believe a 240hp 3800 can go a full second faster?? Sorry but as I stated before a 3800 cannot change physics. Yes the speed at which an engine revs up and how wide the torque band is does have an effect but in the quarter mile you are only talking tenths of seconds not a full second. And not even calculus is going to change that. A turbo has no relationship between RPM and airflow? Sorry but the RPM of an engine has a relationship with exhaust flow and in BASIC turbocharging a turbos boost is controlled by how fast the exhaust spins it. (yes the size of the turbo and ratio does affect the level of boost as well, But the boost is still controlled by how fast the exhaust spins it)

Who said 240HP? Stock 3800SC dosen't necessary equate to 240HP. I'm sure there are a few 270HP anomaly cars from the factory. Put it in a Fiero and it is NO longer stock and change to a 3.4 pulley and you could be ~285HP. He got it from a junkyard and who really knows what was previously done to it???

"The perfect example of this is the lowly 240horsepower 3800 is able to run a 12.6@108mph behind a 4speed "


"Who said 240HP?"


DH said it.

quote Originally posted by weaselbeak: "The perfect example of this is the lowly 240horsepower 3800 is able to run a 12.6@108mph behind a 4speed " "Who said 240HP?" DH said it.

I interpreted it as 240HP factory rating but NOT actual Dyno numbers as a 240BHP in 3000lb car is NOT going to run 12.6. However, a ~240HP rated engine that actually has 285WHP in a 2800lb car....
I guess I made answer fit my train of thought....LOL