There are two types of t-top Fieros. The C&C aftermarket kits, made pre '88. And then the official '88 CJB T-topz, alzo made by C&C. Between both official and unofficial t-top cars, there were right around 3,000-ish or so made and that was it.
If you want to add them to your car, you would have to find a salvage Fiero that has everything intact, cut the roof, and swap onto your car - and that would be nowhere near an easy endeavor. Consider many parts like the seals are no longer produced, you could easily pay way more than what you would pay for a running Fiero by the time you find everything.
If you really want a Fiero with t-tops, you would probably be wise to find one already with them. Non-CJB pre-88 cars typically command prices $1,000 or so above non t-top cars and confirmed CJB 88 Fieros can start there at $1,000 above normal prices and typically rise.
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09:54 PM
jscott1 Member
Posts: 21676 From: Houston, TX , USA Registered: Dec 2001
There are two types of kits floating around... Kits that people have assembled from wrecked T-tops and there are (believe it or not) a few NOS t-tops kits being hoarded by members. I personally know of a couple.
When I went looking for a "kit" I posted in the mall and people came out of the woodwork to sell me a kit. The problem is that they are not cheap and most Fiero owners are cheap so they go unsold. But if you are serious you can buy a kit easily. For the right price I would cut the roof off my pride and joy Proud-2. Everything has a price.
Oh and starting with the roof off another car is not nearly as difficult as you might think. It's just like starting with a kit except you have to drill out 50 rivets or so. Adds maybe an hour onto the job, which easily can be done in a weekend.
note the date on the C&C install, April 6th 1987, delivered to dealer on April 7th 1987.
It's been well documented that the C&C Tops on the pre-88 are virtually identical to the CJB. The difference is that pre-88 it was a dealer installed option versus a "factory" option (CJB) even though the method of installation was nearly identical.
The only difference in your case is that it was a local shop that did the install versus the ship through installer in Michigan.
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04:12 AM
hyperv6 Member
Posts: 6134 From: Clinton, OH, USA Registered: Mar 2003
This topic get so distorted by so many Fiero fans.
Cars and Concepts made all the T tops. The 84-87 were considered a Dealer installed option by Pontiac as it could be installed by a local dealer using a Cars and Concepts installer or as many were installed by the very same Cars and Concepts in Brighton Mich for the dealers. By being a Dealer Installed option it made it so a Dealer could have it installed and still sell the car as new with a full warranty.
The CJB was just an option code added by Pontiac when it became a factory ordered option. These cars were taken from the Pontiac plant and delivered to the Brighton Mich plant that already had installed a great number of the dealer option car tops. C&C set up a assmbley line and to make it go better they made the top gasket seal and the inter headliner seal as on part. This was done for better quality control and the fact they only needed one part per side vs two.
I have found many of the pre 88 tops to be very well installed as often on man worked on it and often go the trim better lined up. Many 88 cars have trim that at times may not be as well lined up since they were moving faster. Not a big deal just an observation.
So in short any t top kit will fit any year of body style of Fiero. The parts other than the top seal are the same and you can interchange them if needed.
The real trick is getting a top in good condition. Oftne the glass is scratched and the trim will need repainted. Also the plastic caps are now being remade as often they have broken with age.
I would recomend using care in buying a top. Make sure it is complete as possible in good condition. Buying parts seperately can be time consuming and expensive.
There are new kits still around but they are not cheap. Often like stated you may find a complete car in good condition just for a little more with the tops installed.
While T tops are not on every Fiero they are not all that hard to find if you really want one. Per the man who bought C&C and was incharge of the T top program told me there were around 7,000 kits made. Keep in mind not all were used on Fiero's. Warranties and repairs were made using complete kits and the rest of the parts were discarded. They had to keep enough parts on hand to take care of GM warranties for a while so many of thses kit were parted out. Also there are some NOS kits left at a price. Either way there were at least 5,000 T top Fieros built counting all the cars that recieved a top. Other kits found their ways into many Kit cars too that were never counted by C&C as they just sold them the kits.
I bought some new NOS glass years ago incase I broke one. I had looked for a long time and good glass and gaskets are hard to come by.
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09:26 AM
rourke_87_T-Top Member
Posts: 1347 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jan 2009
This topic get so distorted by so many Fiero fans. ... I bought some new NOS glass years ago incase I broke one. I had looked for a long time and good glass and gaskets are hard to come by.
I think what I said was consistent with your story.
I took my tops off yesterday and I use the "death grip" whenever I'm handing them. Yes I have a spare set just in case, but I'm not about to break them carelessly.
Exactly. As an example, in 1994, 20,836 out of 47,717 Firebirds were made with T-tops.
By 1998 all Trans Ams were equipped with T-tops. Similar to the Fiero and the sunroof, the structure of the 4th gen Firebird had the t-top build into the structure.
[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 03-04-2012).]
By 1998 all Trans Ams were equipped with T-tops. Similar to the Fiero and the sunroof, the structure of the 4th gen Firebird had the t-top build into the structure.
Really? Didn't know that, cool info. Seals for 4th gen's are pretty cheap and available as well, but Fiero T-tops seals...you are for the most part out of luck if you don't have a few thousand for them laying around.
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04:23 PM
qwikgta Member
Posts: 4670 From: Virginia Beach, VA Registered: Jan 2001
having owned my T-Top since 1998, I can only say that the novelty of the T-Top wears off very fast. The first time your caught in rain and you get all wet, and then a few months later notice that your headliner is moldy, you will regret cutting off your top.
If my car was not a CJB one, I'd cut the top off and do a choptop at the same time. Also having beachwood and a T-Top just makes finding those special parts that much more fun.
Now, I will admit that driving with the tops off on a warm summer evening is a blast, the half dozen or so nights a year I get make me remember why I spent so much money on this car over the years.
having owned my T-Top since 1998, I can only say that the novelty of the T-Top wears off very fast. The first time your caught in rain and you get all wet, and then a few months later notice that your headliner is moldy, you will regret cutting off your top.
Rob .
Naaah, just don't slow down. Mythbusters proved that you won't get wet as long as you don't slow down.
having owned my T-Top since 1998, I can only say that the novelty of the T-Top wears off very fast. The first time your caught in rain and you get all wet, and then a few months later notice that your headliner is moldy, you will regret cutting off your top.
If my car was not a CJB one, I'd cut the top off and do a choptop at the same time. Also having beachwood and a T-Top just makes finding those special parts that much more fun.
Now, I will admit that driving with the tops off on a warm summer evening is a blast, the half dozen or so nights a year I get make me remember why I spent so much money on this car over the years.
Just my .02 cents.
Rob .
The novaslty does not wear off if you put the tops in when the sky gets dark and they are in place before it rains. The tops do fit behind the seats or trunk.
Those warm summer nights driving around the lakes make them worth every penny. There is no sunroof that can replace them.
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05:15 PM
hyperv6 Member
Posts: 6134 From: Clinton, OH, USA Registered: Mar 2003
I think what I said was consistent with your story.
I took my tops off yesterday and I use the "death grip" whenever I'm handing them. Yes I have a spare set just in case, but I'm not about to break them carelessly.
I was just backing you up on what you said with a little more detail That was all.
But I was the one who coined the Death Grip term for removing the tops years ago. LOL! I should have gotten a trademark!
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05:19 PM
jscott1 Member
Posts: 21676 From: Houston, TX , USA Registered: Dec 2001
Those warm summer nights driving around the lakes make them worth every penny. There is no sunroof that can replace them.
I agree 1000% I never regretted for a millisecond adding t-tops to my GT... and I haven't completely given up the notion of adding t-tops to my choptop.
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05:20 PM
PFF
System Bot
el_roy1985 Member
Posts: 295 From: Bismarck, ND, USA Registered: Jun 2004
Sure would be nice to have some T-tops. Has anyone used the t-tops from a vehicle with more readily available replacement parts?
I've been thinking of just making my own t-tops (since a Targa would compromise vehicle structure without weight adding re-inforcement), but instead of glass use fiberglass or carbon fiber.
I would advise giving up on the idea of adding a top from another car. The Fiero needs a good support to tie the car together. The T top was claimed to be impossible by GM when C&C approched them in 84 about doing a factory one. In a short time C&C designed and built the first one on a 84 Pilot model. GM was amazed it was done. The key was to design a top that could be cut and put into the car to replace the removed structure.
For all intents the Fiero is like a 4 legged stool. then you cut the top it becomes a 2 legged stool. the H piece that they designed is like a third leg that holds the car stable. The T top cars do have a little more flex to them but the the Credit of C&C they did find a way that did leave the car acceptable.
You also have consider crash worthiness too. While I know the T top is not as strong as the original car it will at least give you a chance. To not get any other top in right will let the car fold up on you and leave you with a much shortened life.
Note most of the good Targa cars and convertibles all have added bracing and most have bad cowl shake.
The second issue it the glass. You would be hard pressed to find glass that will fit the top. To have it made is not cheap.
The bottom line is if you want T tops you either need to be lucky and find a complete car to cut it out of with all the parts there or just find a good car with a T top. Otherwise if you try to piece the whole thing together you may have more invested in the kit than the car is worth.
I would advise giving up on the idea of adding a top from another car. The Fiero needs a good support to tie the car together. The T top was claimed to be impossible by GM when C&C approched them in 84 about doing a factory one. In a short time C&C designed and built the first one on a 84 Pilot model. GM was amazed it was done. The key was to design a top that could be cut and put into the car to replace the removed structure.
For all intents the Fiero is like a 4 legged stool. then you cut the top it becomes a 2 legged stool. the H piece that they designed is like a third leg that holds the car stable. The T top cars do have a little more flex to them but the the Credit of C&C they did find a way that did leave the car acceptable.
You also have consider crash worthiness too. While I know the T top is not as strong as the original car it will at least give you a chance. To not get any other top in right will let the car fold up on you and leave you with a much shortened life.
Note most of the good Targa cars and convertibles all have added bracing and most have bad cowl shake.
The second issue it the glass. You would be hard pressed to find glass that will fit the top. To have it made is not cheap.
The bottom line is if you want T tops you either need to be lucky and find a complete car to cut it out of with all the parts there or just find a good car with a T top. Otherwise if you try to piece the whole thing together you may have more invested in the kit than the car is worth.
I don't think giving up on using another car is the right answer before it's even been looked into.
I'm not talking about making a convertible, I'm talking about making a T-Top, which still has supports for the roof. Usually in the center...
I was wondering what the measurements would be. I can make it strong enough if I need to.
OK OK, let me start over before we get going with this "take the train crap".
I asked about taking the top from another car, cutting it out, and welding it in place on a Fiero that also had it's top cut out. This top would already have glass that fits it since it was made for another car. What cars have a similar width roof and window? The 80's Firebird was the first one that came to mind for me, I'm certain that there is at least one car out there that "fits" what is needed.
I am not sure if it had so much to do with warp as vs the damage that could happen with stray sparks to paint and the interior.
Whey they cut the top out they did use supports to hold the car in alignment. This is one key part many will be missing when they do it at home. Many have come up with different ways to hold the car in place while drilling and installing the rivets
There are install manuals floating around and it covers how to install one of these. I don't know if it was ever put out in a PDF file.
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09:00 PM
PFF
System Bot
qwikgta Member
Posts: 4670 From: Virginia Beach, VA Registered: Jan 2001
The novaslty does not wear off if you put the tops in when the sky gets dark and they are in place before it rains. The tops do fit behind the seats or trunk. Those warm summer nights driving around the lakes make them worth every penny. There is no sunroof that can replace them.
You goof balls, im not talking about getting rained on because I don't have the tops on, im talking about how having a hole, any hole in your roof will lead to water getting into the car. The rubber parts start to dry up, the seals start to let go. My parts are in very good condition (garage kept) but when it rains, water leaks at the corner of the windows, and water gets down into the area between the top molding and rear clip. I've had it all apart, and fixed it all, but I still don't drive it when it may rain.
Rob
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09:07 PM
jscott1 Member
Posts: 21676 From: Houston, TX , USA Registered: Dec 2001
I don't think giving up on using another car is the right answer before it's even been looked into.
I'm not talking about making a convertible, I'm talking about making a T-Top, which still has supports for the roof. Usually in the center...
I was wondering what the measurements would be. I can make it strong enough if I need to.
OK OK, let me start over before we get going with this "take the train crap".
I asked about taking the top from another car, cutting it out, and welding it in place on a Fiero that also had it's top cut out. This top would already have glass that fits it since it was made for another car. What cars have a similar width roof and window? The 80's Firebird was the first one that came to mind for me, I'm certain that there is at least one car out there that "fits" what is needed.
Brad
What you forget is most cars were designed as a T top and the support is made into the car and is not easily or even possible to remove and transfer as the H bar in the Fiero was. The Fiero top was designed installed in a car after the fact when it was designed. This is not an easy task and it difficult in most cars and was deemed impossible by the staff at GM that designed the Fiero space frame.
I am not trying to give you a hard time but since I have a 85 with an installed top I know a little about the kit and also since I have met with the guy who what incharge of selling GM on the idea from C&C I have a little insight on what they had to do.
Here is my point. Take a look at the photos of the rivets. The black all around is the T top H bat that was designed to fit into the car to give it the needed support. The thing is that is not what is in a Mustang, Firebird or any other T top car. Those were designed into the car and not a retro fit. There will be noting like this to take out.
Second the issue is the tops from the other cars are not only not the same size but generally of a different shape in how they form to the roof. This is why getting replacment gaskets is so diffucult as there are none the same size or even close in shape. The Mustang is as close as I have seen to this kit but the parts do not transfer.
The reason I know is I checked a lot of tops out tops for possible replacments incase I could never find a FIero glass top. Since none were right or close enough I ended up buying a NOS set of glass as back ups.
So like I said I am not trying to be negitive or give you a hard time but there are few parts on the Fiero tops that can be found anywhere else to use on our cars. Some may be close but with tops like this close is not good enought when it rains.
I have seen older 4 cylinder cars with bad engines and complete tops that have sold for a very cheap price. Taking the time to find one like is well worth saving the hassles of reengineering a new top. Anything can be done but the time money and engineering skills would make this a difficult job at best. To be honest I think making a convertible would be a much easier task.
So sorry if I stepped on your toes. I was not meaning any harm and I hope now that I explained my point you can just take it for what it is advice. As for what you do that is up to you.
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09:14 PM
hyperv6 Member
Posts: 6134 From: Clinton, OH, USA Registered: Mar 2003
You goof balls, im not talking about getting rained on because I don't have the tops on, im talking about how having a hole, any hole in your roof will lead to water getting into the car. The rubber parts start to dry up, the seals start to let go. My parts are in very good condition (garage kept) but when it rains, water leaks at the corner of the windows, and water gets down into the area between the top molding and rear clip. I've had it all apart, and fixed it all, but I still don't drive it when it may rain.
Rob
Sorry I missed where you said it has a leak in the roof.
[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 03-04-2012).]
What you forget is most cars were designed as a T top and the support is made into the car and is not easily or even possible to remove and transfer as the H bar in the Fiero was. The Fiero top was designed installed in a car after the fact when it was designed. This is not an easy task and it difficult in most cars and was deemed impossible by the staff at GM that designed the Fiero space frame.
I am not trying to give you a hard time but since I have a 85 with an installed top I know a little about the kit and also since I have met with the guy who what incharge of selling GM on the idea from C&C I have a little insight on what they had to do.
Here is my point. Take a look at the photos of the rivets. The black all around is the T top H bat that was designed to fit into the car to give it the needed support. The thing is that is not what is in a Mustang, Firebird or any other T top car. Those were designed into the car and not a retro fit. There will be noting like this to take out.
Second the issue is the tops from the other cars are not only not the same size but generally of a different shape in how they form to the roof. This is why getting replacment gaskets is so diffucult as there are none the same size or even close in shape. The Mustang is as close as I have seen to this kit but the parts do not transfer.
The reason I know is I checked a lot of tops out tops for possible replacments incase I could never find a FIero glass top. Since none were right or close enough I ended up buying a NOS set of glass as back ups.
So like I said I am not trying to be negitive or give you a hard time but there are few parts on the Fiero tops that can be found anywhere else to use on our cars. Some may be close but with tops like this close is not good enought when it rains.
I have seen older 4 cylinder cars with bad engines and complete tops that have sold for a very cheap price. Taking the time to find one like is well worth saving the hassles of reengineering a new top. Anything can be done but the time money and engineering skills would make this a difficult job at best. To be honest I think making a convertible would be a much easier task.
So sorry if I stepped on your toes. I was not meaning any harm and I hope now that I explained my point you can just take it for what it is advice. As for what you do that is up to you.
So the Mustang tops are a close fit then?
Brad
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10:00 PM
Mar 5th, 2012
jscott1 Member
Posts: 21676 From: Houston, TX , USA Registered: Dec 2001
Originally posted by hyperv6: Here is my point. Take a look at the photos of the rivets. The black all around is the T top H bat that was designed to fit into the car to give it the needed support. The thing is that is not what is in a Mustang, Firebird or any other T top car. Those were designed into the car and not a retro fit. There will be noting like this to take out.
The Mustang and 3rd gen F body had kits available to be installed by C&C in an almost identical process as the Fiero. This link is for a 2nd gen, but you get the idea.
There were factory T-tops, but I know for a fact that the Mustangs and Firebirds and Camaros were also sent to C&C to have t-tops installed. The C&C tops would have an "H" like frame that could be removed. It would still be a difficult if not impossible job. But if someone really wanted to do it I'm sure it could be done.
[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 03-05-2012).]
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12:00 AM
hyperv6 Member
Posts: 6134 From: Clinton, OH, USA Registered: Mar 2003
About as close as you will find. But in this case close only counts in hose shoes. Many have looked at the glass and seals but to this point I have only seen the P seals used with some mods. I have not seen any of the other parts used.
Most people have a hard enough time getting the Fiero parts to fit right. LOL!
I bought it as a parts car for $500.
