The power level, triple disk clutch and driver were probably the 3 leading contributors to the that F40 failure.

the idea here is that we are going to build a fun car. With an electronic boost controller, the car probably won't be seeing much more than 7psi of boost for daily driving. But as we all know, when it is time to get on it, the car is going to be abused. Just don't dump the clutch.
Dave

quote Originally posted by bmwguru: But as we all know, when it is time to get on it, the car is going to be abused. Just don't dump the clutch. Dave

I'm OFFENDED that you think such things! I would NEVER EVER abuse this car... hey is that a Corvette that pulled up next to me at the light...?

quote When here's what the thread ACTUALLY said... "He was running 18psi on a T66, headwork, cam, 3" straight exhaust, triple disc clutch...... i guess this combo is just too much for the poor F40." I guess I just don't understand. Why are people so quick to judge and spread rumors instead of waiting to see? The truth is, some people want it to fail so they can be right. They may very well be right, but they have NO way of knowing if they are or not, at least not until someone legitimately breaks one at a lower threshhold than they would break a 4T65E. That story is definitely NOT an example of that. I don't know squat about cars, but I DO know about people and arguing. Many people argue opinion as if it's fact. Either way, we'll all find out soon enough

You really didnt read what I said...

You take it out of context of what I said before in the thread.

I will say if you are going through all this to run 7psi, I really dont think you will have any problems.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: You really didnt read what I said... You take it out of context of what I said before in the thread. I will say if you are going through all this to run 7psi, I really dont think you will have any problems.

I quoted what you said. I re-read both threads several times to try to figure out where you got your info. You weren't responding to anything about anyone else's car. You have a specific goal, which is to be the fastest, so you equate everything to that goal. I won't be throwing 18 psi of boost at this engine to drive in rush hour traffic. I won't be dumping the clutch to get from my house to the corner every time I drive the car. When I want to turn it up to say 15 psi, I will but not for regular driving.

I've also read what you posted on Club GP...

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon:"The clutch wont hold anyway. He probably would have been faster with a m90 at this point...."

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon:"The shop he is sending it to has never worked on a manual transmission fiero, at least one that is not stock. I know all there is to know about manual fiero transmissions, I have installed many into 500whp+ setups."

Or did I take that out of context too? If so, I'll have to get my copy and paste function serviced, it must be faulty. Since you know all there is to know about manual Fiero transmissions because you've installed many into 500whp+ setups, why don't you let us all know exactly what the failure threshhold will be on mine, and show us where you tested it. I'd love to have the info so I can stop myself from making a horrible decision.

But I get it, this is just who you are.

quote Originally posted by mptighe: I'm OFFENDED that you think such things! I would NEVER EVER abuse this car... hey is that a Corvette that pulled up next to me at the light...?

Lol hes not joking. I (like an idiot) the other night pulled up to a red light. i have a habbit of holding my clutch down with my car in gear till the light turns. well with a spec stage 2 clutch in my 3400 turbo formula it is really stiff and i found out the hard way it is to stiff for the Fiero's disengagement system. Well now a bent banjo and spent slave cylinder later I'm now seeing it wasent a good idea.

quote I won't be throwing 18 psi of boost at this engine to drive in rush hour traffic.

Why do you have such a big turbo then? Why not just stay supercharged at that point?

I have some absolute junk tires on my car most of the time, so I may leave it on 15-16psi when its cold like this, but for the most part I never see much less than 19 or 20. Justin cant set his boost lower than 18.

quote Or did I take that out of context too? If so, I'll have to get my copy and paste function serviced, it must be faulty. Since you know all there is to know about manual Fiero transmissions because you've installed many into 500whp+ setups,

You did take that out of context, because I clearly said 500whp+, and at 7psi you will be lucky to break 240.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: You did take that out of context, because I clearly said 500whp+, and at 7psi you will be lucky to break 240.

ok. Scott, I've always defended you to everyone that said you were a punk kid that talked out his ass. If you continue to input incorrect info in my build thread because you feel that you are the Turbo Guru, than you will no longer have me backing you. I've never had an issue with you until now and you have pissed me off with your inaccurate comments. You are looking to see this build fail and I don't have people with that attitude around me because it causes bad vibes and it is not productive. I've fired more employees than I can remember because they said something that wasn't positive or they showed me they weren't up for a challenge build.

As for your comments on Club GP (I am a member there as well), You say I have never worked on a manual transmission Fiero. Maybe I should post up my Fiero resume.

I've owned my first five speed Fiero in 1993. How old were you then?
I installed a SBC in that Fiero in 1995. Then daily drove it until 1999
I built another SBC manual transmission Fiero (my orange and black GT) in 2002
I then built a Volkswagen VR6 Fiero using a VW manual transmission in 2007
In 2008, I built my gold GT 3800s/c with a manual transmission.
Since then, I've built a 3800s/c manual transmission for Vince in South Dakota. I've done a clutch repair on Fierobobo's LS3 Fiero, I've worked on Troyboy's LS7 F40, but nothing to do with the transmission. I've had my hands in Ryan's car (he is my employee and built his own Fiero)....with a 3800s/c and manual transmission. I've done a lot of work to Sabooo's manual transmission 3800s/c. Charlie's 3800s/c has a manual transmission as well. I've also built Midtrbo with a manual transmission. I'm also swapping a series III 3800s/c with a manual transmission currently.
In addition to my minimial experience with manual transmissions, I've swapped a handful of auto 3800s/c Fieros as well.

So from this point on, I'd prefer to remove the "Negative Nancy's" from this thread and let me build what Michael wants and not what you think he should have. I don't mind constructive critism, but I will not tolerate blatent negativity because you want me to build a drag car and run 30psi on the street.

Michael asked for his trunk back. He asked for a fun daily driver he could take to work. He asked for it to perform when he wanted it to go. He also asked for it to have a manual transmission.

So with that being said, I just wasted the last 20 minutes typing this and I'd like to go start my day.

Dave

ps: I agreed to not trash anything Tengis did on this build, so I will keep to that. Michael can post up anything he feels I tell him is worth mentioning. In return, I'd prefer Tengis to not be a Negative Nancy on Club GP. You took in a basket case, and got it running. Leave it there. Whodeanie is getting the car after I'm done with it. If he has to redo something I did....so be it.

[This message has been edited by bmwguru (edited 04-18-2011).]

'Nuff said. Sorry about my drawing this into the thread Dave. Let's continue.

"In return, I'd prefer Tengis to not be a Negative Nancy on Club GP. You took in a basket case, and got it running."
Im pretty sure I didnt say anything negative toward you on ClubGP...

quote Originally posted by Tengis: "In return, I'd prefer Tengis to not be a Negative Nancy on Club GP. You took in a basket case, and got it running." Im pretty sure I didnt say anything negative toward you on ClubGP...

I apologize....I read it at 5am this morning and didn't have my morning coffee yet. i realize now you were just showing off the work you had done.

Dave,

I feel like things have strayed from my original intentions of showing concern....... to implying criticisms towards you.

I really dislike how the internet tends to do this, but I really need to emphasize that it is a much MUCH different world when you are doubling the power from what you normally work with. I am not implying that you are incapable of constructing things to produce this much power, or that you may be confident that it is going to hold it for XXX reason....

I have some more input, but that can be discussed further in a PM, as it gets a bit dramatic.

BOT...

I got a status report. The calipers have been reinstalled, and we are waiting on the Quaife LSD, which may have been backordered. For those of you interested in this unit, you won't find it anywhere for the listed price. Everyone wants at least a couple hundred more than what the websites have it listed for, mainly due to the increased cost of shipping (fuel) and the lack of supply I imagine.

Also, to help answer the question about the engine. Dave just let me know that it is only firing on 5 cylinders. With the questionable history and everything else, out with the old and in with the new....er old engine. Dave has assured me that "we" (notice how I try to seem more important by including myself in this?) have the build under control.

This looks to be another SWEET build from Team GURU. Should I order more decals for you Dave?

For everyone that's considering swapping this transmission, but is concerned about the reliability of it handling higher power, I'm researching shops that build performance engines and transmissions in an attempt to find someone that might be able or willing to beef up a F40. I've already spoken with Tim King and a couple of others who are heavy into beefing up Grand Prix transmissions. I'll keep everyone posted if I find anything decent to report.

Any updates?

quote Originally posted by JesseM: Any updates?

As a matter of fact, yes. Well, sort of. I was able to find a performance shop that has experience cryo and wpc treating these transmissions. They've actually done some for the Fiero community already but apparently have been kept a secret. My transmission will be shipped out to them for this process, which they say will easily enable the transmission to hold 450 ft lbs of torque without issue. Unfortunately this will cause a 2 week delay in the build while this is being finished. Dave has a couple of other projects to tend to in the meantime, so this is probably good timing. Once the transmission returns, I'll pass along the contact info on the performance shop.

[This message has been edited by mptighe (edited 04-26-2011).]

quote Originally posted by bmwguru: It will be the same as a BMW

So fast left and forward, like on the MINI, Porsche, ... Muncie 4 speed?

..man, now I want an F40....

quote Originally posted by Austrian Import: Now that I finally read through all of this thread: Less arguing... More building, and more pictures. Build threads need more pictures.

I totally agree...but all there is to take pictures of right now would be work someone else did, so I don't see Dave taking any until he gets the transmission back. After that, he BETTER take some pictures I'm starting to feel like I don't own a Fiero again

yes....more pictures will be shown as the work progress continues.
The transmission was shipped to Performance Autowerks today, so in the meantime, I'll finish up Charles project car and start fabricating the mounting brackets for the transmission....I forgot to tell Michael that I do have another F40 here....the one for my gold GT.
The trip to Jersey made the car gross to touch, so the first thing I had Ryan do was wash it off...and here is a pic as requested. More to come soon.....

That's the first time that car's been washed in a year and a half. I'm glad you have the other transmission to work with until mine returns, not that I expect you to get a lot done during that time. You still have Charlie's car to work on, and the other swap coming in. I was going to wait until we got it back, but since Dave mentioned them, yes Performance Autowerks is doing the strengthening of the transmission. They've done several of Archie's and are more than willing to do more for the Fiero community.

Here is their contact info.

Dave Gilbert

Performance Autowerks, Inc.

12425 Rhea Dr. Suite A

Plainfield, IL 60585

phone - 815-439-4547

fax - 815-439-6751

e-mail - dave@performanceautowerks.com

www.performanceautowerks.com

The process takes about 2 weeks, and the cost varies depending on whether or not you want a LSD installed.

Complete tear down and rebuild

Cryo treat all steel internals

WPC process all steel internals

Install Quaife LSD (LSD price not included)

$1500.00

The LSD runs $1,200 and includes pressing in the new bearings.

If anyone decides to work with them, feel free to mention my name, as I assured him I'd get him some more business. I would have liked to have known about them from go, but like I said they've been a secret, and I had to search them out. My goal is to break the silence about them and make sure we have another option for treating our transmissions.

The bill from dave is probably going to pass 20k before you know it! Its like an archie all out build now.

.

[This message has been edited by bmwguru (edited 04-28-2011).]

Keep "winkie" on the tool box Dave --- Haters will hate for no good reason! Love the work you do and it's a credit to you that those who want the best chose you to spend their hard earned money with.

Who said I was hating anything?

I actually don't think Scott meant it that way (I can't believe I am saying that). I just think he's comparing my build to the higher end builds. I could be wrong.

Dave and I discussed the cost of the transmission swap before we knew he was going to have to start over with the engine. We're still on track for the transmission cost from what I can tell. I purchased the transmission from Schram on Ebay for $300. The LSD is going to cost $1,200, and the fortification of the transmission is going to be $1,500. So I'm at about $3,000 for the transmission alone, plus the cost of the clutch and flywheel kit from Spec, any parts Dave needs to mate the transmission and engine (like axles, modified shift cables, etc), to convert the car (remember it's an auto now), and fabrication to make everything play nice together. I could have saved almost $3k by using the stock F40, but with everyone saying I will break it, I decided to spend the money up front, just in case they turned out to be right.

The rest of the work to be done shouldn't be THAT bad. Yes, Dave will be starting over in a lot of ways. However, there is already a 3800 mounted in the car. Some of the parts are already there for the engine side of things. He has to replace the engine and will be getting a new cam, lifters, roller-rockers, and springs. The turbo may need to be rebuilt or replaced, he'll DEFINITELY be replacing the header, and we're also looking at a F-Body intake setup. OK, so now that I list it all out I'm getting worried LMAO.

I'll be selling some of the parts I currently have to offset some of the cost, like my ZZP stuff we won't be using. We'll be reusing some of it though, like the N* TB, RollMaster timing chain, and maybe a few other things.

Seriously I don't expect this to be "cheap", but after spending almost $20k on the car so far, without anything to show for it, I'm ready to do this. That said, Dave promised not to perform any "Bad Touching" with regards to my wallet. Besides, he felt so bad about all of the issues he said he'll do anything else I want for free.... right Dave?

[This message has been edited by mptighe (edited 04-27-2011).]

I retracted my statement and sent a pm to apologize to Dark.

Dave

quote Originally posted by mptighe: That's the first time that car's been washed in a year and a half. I'm glad you have the other transmission to work with until mine returns, not that I expect you to get a lot done during that time. You still have Charlie's car to work on, and the other swap coming in. I was going to wait until we got it back, but since Dave mentioned them, yes Performance Autowerks is doing the strengthening of the transmission. They've done several of Archie's and are more than willing to do more for the Fiero community. Here is their contact info. Dave Gilbert ............... If anyone decides to work with them, feel free to mention my name, as I assured him I'd get him some more business. I would have liked to have known about them from go, but like I said they've been a secret, and I had to search them out. My goal is to break the silence about them and make sure we have another option for treating our transmissions.

A little correction is in order.......

I've been having Dave Gilbert dis-assemble & re-assemble some of the 6 speeds for several years now. However, no one has ever asked in one of my build threads who I was using. (I have Rec'd several EMails asking & I've responded to them with the info)

One other thing we should get straight. I have always used 300Below for all my processing http://www.300below.com/ When Dave takes the transmission apart, I send all the internals to 300Below for processing. After processing, Dave puts the transmission back together.

Thanks

Archie

quote Originally posted by mptighe: Seriously I don't expect this to be "cheap", but after spending almost $20k on the car so far, without anything to show for it,

WOW that is way too much dough rey mi !! (edit: FOR ME to spend not you )

You should have bought Skitime's car!!

Oh well it should be a nice car when done......IF THERE WERE MORE PICS!!!!!!!!!!!!

And I think 300*below is who Cali kid used as well on his cryo treatments. I think.

[This message has been edited by revin (edited 04-28-2011).]

I will post more pics as it progresses....lol
Besides, wasn't a pic of Ryan washing the car with his shirt tied up funny enough for now?
Dave

Thanks Archie for clearing that up. Performance Autowerks is sending the trans internals out to have them treated, but I'm pretty sure it's not to 300 Below as Dave said it gets sent to CA. Does 300 Below do the WPC process as well? If so it might be good for Dave at PA to use them since they're closer.

Revin, that includes the purchase price and what I spent getting it running as well as the stereo and install. When you factor in the money I spent at 2 different shops for the attempts at having a running 3800 and the cost of replacing what the first shop broke / stole, yeah I'm at about $20k now. It's too much money for me too to be honest. Had I known this was going to be the case I could have bought pretty much any of the higher end cars that have come up for sale recently, and probably should have. You don't want to know what I have spent on all of my cars in the past couple of years

Dave, if you could get Ryan to put on a Brittany Spears wig and a catholic school girl uniform while doing it, then I will release you from having to post any other pictures I say that in a purely hetero way of course.

[This message has been edited by mptighe (edited 04-28-2011).]

I am not sure where anyone got that ultrasonic stress relieving or cryogenically treating the transmission gear sets (or who does it for that matter) was a secret or something new. CaliforniaKid has been a large supporter as well as Archie and FieroX and each has posted information about treating parts in their transmissions. Here is a older one that lists a shop in CA that does the process:
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...030819-1-027315.html

Here is a post Archie made back in 2005 from this thread: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...050818-1-049976.html

quote Originally posted by Archie: Also, we are currently working on a V-8 Fiero stick shift for the guy who owns 300Below http://www.300below.com/site/home.html so I'm in hopes that that relationship will help the Fiero community. So, we'll see. Archie

Just do a search for 300below or Cryogenic and you will get up to 10 pages worth of previous threads.

What does just the cryo treatment run on these trannies? I may be into one that I will assemble myself but would like to have the treatment done. Any ideas? peace

Pete

quote Originally posted by fieroguru: I am not sure where anyone got that ultrasonic stress relieving or cryogenically treating the transmission gear sets (or who does it for that matter) was a secret or something new. CaliforniaKid has been a large supporter as well as Archie and FieroX and each has posted information about treating parts in their transmissions. Here is a older one that lists a shop in CA that does the process: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...030819-1-027315.html Here is a post Archie made back in 2005 from this thread: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...050818-1-049976.html Just do a search for 300below or Cryogenic and you will get up to 10 pages worth of previous threads.

It wasn't the cryo treating that I wasn't aware of, it was the fact that there's a shop that will handle all of it for you. It would have been nice to know about Autowerks, since they're used to working with the F40's. Most performance shops that do transmissions won't even look at one, at least not the ones I contacted. I could have sent my transmission to them after I bought it and it would have saved me some cash in extra shipping, not to mention time. I'm not really blaming Archie or anything, but when I find a place that does cool stuff, I go out of my way to let people know and get them business. A lot of people on this forum aren't like that. I want to make sure the guys at Autowerks get the props they deserve.

[This message has been edited by mptighe (edited 04-28-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Pete Matos: What does just the cryo treatment run on these trannies? I may be into one that I will assemble myself but would like to have the treatment done. Any ideas? peace Pete

For all the internals for the 6 speed 300Below charges in the $220 to $250 range.

If the parts are there by tuesday they have them done by Friday.

Quick turnaround & nice people.

Archie

In a conversation with the folks at zzperformance.com, they mentioned in some research they have done on the F40s, they are extremely easy to take apart and put back together.

Thanks guys... All good medicine....!! peace

Pete