quote because this one is pretty much trashed and useless

Because no information was ever being posted, and the information that was being posted was just plain wrong/ignorant... It has nothing to do with the fact that I attempted to discuss things. The fact that Michael's ego broke the door off the proverbial cage does not help matters either... The second his ideas were ever proven to be wrong the moods changed from "well this is what I want to do and how I plan to achieve it" to "I'm going to do it wrong just to piss you guys off". As grandma always said, it takes 2 to tango.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: Because no information was ever being posted, and the information that was being posted was just plain wrong/ignorant... It has nothing to do with the fact that I attempted to discuss things. The fact that Michael's ego broke the door off the proverbial cage does not help matters either... The second his ideas were ever proven to be wrong the moods changed from "well this is what I want to do and how I plan to achieve it" to "I'm going to do it wrong just to piss you guys off". As grandma always said, it takes 2 to tango.

No, You posted misinformation about what you thought I was building. You stated that we require a wideband with the Stage 5 camshaft which is true, but we are not using a stage 5 camshaft. You say a torsional LSD is useless in a Fiero, but you have no clue as to why we want the LSD in the first place. You keep trying to show that your junkyard builds are far superior to my five figure builds, but we are working on both ends of the spectrum. All you are doing is making claims at what you THINK we are building and saying we are doing it wrong.
I am not sure of your background with automotive experience, but I do know that you wouldn't last two hours in my shop before I either fired you or you broke down and cried (like most of the guys that have worked for me). I am very hard to work for because I expect everyone to be as good as me. Now as for me, I will summarize it for you:
18 years of PROFESSIONAL experience
college education in the automotive technology field
ASE advanced Master (L1) certified
achieved perfect scores on most of my ASE tests
repeatedly been asked to teach engine diagnostics seminars
Worked flate rate and averaged 110 flat rate hours a week (yes, I was that guy who would steal your work while you were on a test drive)
Opened my own German shop at the age of 26 and still in business today 11 years later.

Now for you to say that what I am doing is wrong without a good expanation is obviously just a way for you to troll. I don't think Michael has an ego, he just had two shops completely screw up his build before I got it and we had to go back in to correct their mess first. The last shop put the brake caliper brackets on the wrong sides and rotors on backwards (on two wheels). It was just pure carelessness.

So, if you were to come to my shop and add some pointers, I would give you my complete attention and we would talk and discuss the pros and cons and maybe you could show me a better way to complete the swap, but from 12 hours away all you are doing is getting in the way.
I have no intention of updating this thread with pics or progress because that is between Michael and me.
Once it is complete, then we will post a complete, detailed swap with all the liitle secrets.
The only thing I will disclose for now is that we spent a full week measuring and modifying the wastegate to flow exactly as it should while keeping it show quality. Everything has been done to full detail for performance and looks. This may seem slow to you, but this is the level of perfection we are seeking on this build. Michael has given me carte blanche on my ideas for this build and I won't disappoint him.

Dave

[This message has been edited by bmwguru (edited 12-16-2011).]

quote Originally posted by bmwguru: No, You posted misinformation about what you thought I was building. You stated that we require a wideband with the Stage 5 camshaft which is true, but we are not using a stage 5 camshaft. You say a torsional LSD is useless in a Fiero, but you have no clue as to why we want the LSD in the first place.

So you admit to being overly deceptive... and dont even provide reasoning as to why?

Also, a LSD is still usless in a fiero, unless you are turning the transmission sideways and trying to drive a front and rear axle for some type of AWD system. Again an area where you have zero experience in, yet you are offering "this is law" type advice. I have hands on experience in it, as I have installed one into a fiero, and you are saying I am wrong?

quote You keep trying to show that your junkyard builds are far superior to my five figure builds, but we are working on both ends of the spectrum. All you are doing is making claims at what you THINK we are building and saying we are doing it wrong.

You are on track to build something that isnt even equal to my "junkyard" builds... Lets not get any ideas that you were ever even to the point of being an equal on performance.

quote I am not sure of your background with automotive experience, but I do know that you wouldn't last two hours in my shop before I either fired you or you broke down and cried (like most of the guys that have worked for me). I am very hard to work for because I expect everyone to be as good as me. Now as for me, I will summarize it for you:

Its not like I am an engineer or anything.... I dont plan on turning wrenches on fieros/bmws to make a living any time soon either.

quote 18 years of PROFESSIONAL experience

0 years experience with turbo 3800s

quote college education in the automotive technology field

My friends girlfriend had one of those. It made me laugh on a daily basis. Good joke.

quote ASE advanced Master (L1) certified

They certify ASE for 3800 turbo setups now?

quote achieved perfect scores on most of my ASE tests

Jealous

quote repeatedly been asked to teach engine diagnostics seminars

But not asked to teach the aftermarket fabrication class... ouch....

quote Worked flate rate and averaged 110 flat rate hours a week (yes, I was that guy who would steal your work while you were on a test drive)

I work smart, not hard... sue me?

quote Opened my own German shop at the age of 26 and still in business today 11 years later.

Takes alot of balls to open your own business, I am in the process of and it is far from a comforting process. Nothing but props for that one.

quote Now for you to say that what I am doing is wrong without a good expanation is obviously just a way for you to troll.

No, its just a way for me to get away with posting at all, I usually dont have time to sit down and explain something to someone that doesnt want to listen anyway.

quote I don't think Michael has an ego, he just had two shops completely screw up his build before I got it and we had to go back in to correct their mess first.

Thats a lie and we both know it.

quote The last shop put the brake caliper brackets on the wrong sides and rotors on backwards (on two wheels). It was just pure carelessness.

When you knew you were not getting paid to ship a car off to be rebuilt anyway, why would you care?

quote So, if you were to come to my shop and add some pointers, I would give you my complete attention and we would talk and discuss the pros and cons and maybe you could show me a better way to complete the swap, but from 12 hours away all you are doing is getting in the way.

Hard to say I am "getting in the way". You can obviously ASK me to explain further in the case you wanted my help. 99/100 times people dont want my help on the internet.. I learned to accept this years ago.

quote I have no intention of updating this thread with pics or progress because that is between Michael and me.

But you took the time to post here? And you said I was getting in your way? (confusing)

quote Once it is complete, then we will post a complete, detailed swap with all the liitle secrets.

As said before, there are no secrets to be revealed on this... you are going down a path well traveled and already abandoned now... If anything you may have brushed off a few tidbits along the way, but they will be far from anything secretive.

quote This may seem slow to you

Considering you posted "it will be done next week" some many months ago... I wouldnt be the one calling anything slow... I would be calling you a liar.

I could care less how long anything takes... There is a reason I decided to build my car and race it at the expense of "looking good"... at a time it was more about money, but now it is more about free time.... I take what I can get...

quote Michael has given me carte blanche on my ideas for this build and I won't disappoint him.

The instructions I got when it was in texas was very clear, and I provided a very clear path to the goal... next thing I knew you had the car? It is not really my fault he said "do it cheap", then came into money and you provide the ability to not "do it cheap".... then blame me for trying to "do it cheap"....

Just a comment from a casual observer. I was following this thread closely - until DH started with his "I am right and you are wrong" attitude. It seems that every thread with a L67 that DH enters turns into that sort of discussion, and frankly it really gets tiring for me - to the point that I lose interest in the build.

DH can really sour up a decent thread for me in no time.

With that said, I will pop in from this point from time to time just to see if something significant has happened, but as far as a close following - I just do not feel like reading thru so much "DH dribble"

Yay! more DH pi$$ing contest. Don't get sucked in like many before you Dave. Ignore and move on.

BOT please.

Out of all that...I just gotta ask about the brakes being put on backwards? Explain this? Dont think I have ever seen this before...

quote Originally posted by Finally_Mine_86_GT: Yay! more DH pi$$ing contest. Don't get sucked in like many before you Dave. Ignore and move on. BOT please.

DITTO!!!

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: The instructions I got when it was in texas was very clear, and I provided a very clear path to the goal... next thing I knew you had the car? It is not really my fault he said "do it cheap", then came into money and you provide the ability to not "do it cheap".... then blame me for trying to "do it cheap"....

"Do it cheap" was never really muttered by me at any time, neither was "make it like your car". I only wanted it to run at first and to look at least somewhat decent, not like some hack job. Why do you keep inserting yourself in Zack's place when YOU didn't turn a wrench on my car? Zack let the car sit without touching it for months, and then took it in the wrong direction from what I really wanted. When I gave him a visual of what I wanted, I showed him a picture of AkursedX's engine. He had his own ideas, and I initially went along with him because I thought he would come through. After months of excuses why he wasn't getting the work done, I put a hard deadline on him and said it had to be done so I could send it off for the transmission. He did a last ditch effort to get it running, barely enough to get it 15 miles to a truck, and it turned out he put all that work and parts into an engine that should have been discarded. I actually told him to verify the engine was solid before he put anything into it and he ignored me.

So, why did you spend hours on the phone with him every day? First off you're friends. Second off, your friend apparently didn't know what he was doing. The funny thing is YOU recommended him Mr. 3800 God. I like Zack, and would let him work on a Grand Prix, but he didn't do right by my car. As far as the financial thing goes, he was paid full price for every part he used, including parts he had laying around that he used. He was also paid his general labor rate for an engine swap, even though he never even dropped my engine. Why wasn't he paid more? The car was f'd up when I got it, and he missed the mark completely. Basically he put me in a situation where I was having to start over yet again. I know you'll probably read this Zack, and I'm sorry but this **** is getting old, and the truth is you didn't do right by the car.

Now Scott, Let's get one thing straight you small minded jackass. Dave never lied about anything. He didn't deceive anyone. You assumed what we were doing, when we hadn't said anything to those levels yet. You apparently knew what we were doing before we did, and it turns out you were wrong on almost all counts. Dave never said it would be done in a week, I did, and I was just flipping him crap and making jokes. Your comprehension is so ridiculously low though you didn't even pick up on the running joke. I even flatly admitted I was joking in one of my posts. He's not lying about the condition of my car when he got it, or the work he had to undo of both Zack's and Split Second's. You wouldn't know because you've never seen this work you supposedly had a hand in.

So, a turbo 3800 with a F40 is a well traveled and now abandoned path? Where are all these cars? Hell I would have bought one if they were in such great supply. People listen to you on some things, but VERY few people think you're anything but a punk. You are a troll, when you criticize without any offer of an alternative, that's not being helpful. You brought up Archie in a V8 thread. Archie would handle himself in a much more mature manner than you ever have. He would have probably PM'd someone to let them know his sincere concerns and more than likely would have offered a solution. Your way? "That's crap compared to mine, because I'm the turbo 3800 god." I personally hope you do start a business. It will be funny to watch it crash and burn because you treat everyone like you're so much better than them.

Why do people back down from you? Because they pity you when they finally see you. They understand you're compensating for your short-comings. You have the fastest 3800 Fiero (unproven still), but you'll always be a little boy with an inferiority complex.

quote Originally posted by mptighe: Archie would handle himself in a much more mature manner than you ever have.

Whoaaa now.... lets not go "full" retard. *chuckle*

I would seriously pay to see Dave and Scott go at it bare knuckle, or gloved. Set it up, I'll attend.

I got $100 on the skinny white guy.

Dis $h!t is better than real houswives of ...

Don't stress over internet

Happy Holidays

Yea I'm surprised my thread hasn't been touched yet. Most likely because it doesn't have the Turbo part to it, could be classified as boring in this case.

quote Originally posted by mptighe: You brought up Archie in a V8 thread. Archie would handle himself in a much more mature manner than you ever have. He would have probably PM'd someone to let them know his sincere concerns and more than likely would have offered a solution.

LOL....Not going to happen....Archie is the worlds worst as handling any issue....He resorts to name calling within the first two replies...His business skills when it comes to communication is about a 2 on a scale of 1-10.....

quote Originally posted by MstangsBware: LOL....Not going to happen....Archie is the worlds worst as handling any issue....He resorts to name calling within the first two replies...His business skills when it comes to communication is about a 2 on a scale of 1-10.....

I don't know, I've seen him say things in a V8 thread without acting like DH. Yeah he gets in his fair share or arguments, but it's not like he trolls every V8 thread like this. I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt.

ok, back on topic....

quote Originally posted by MstangsBware: Out of all that...I just gotta ask about the brakes being put on backwards? Explain this? Dont think I have ever seen this before...

The brake rotors are directional, but one of the lefts was on the right side, so two were mixed up. The rear WCF brackets were mixed up side to side which lowers the caliper and makes the parking brake cable impossible to line up.

Anyway, I won't go into anything else on the build prior to my touching it. It is like dating a stripper...you just leave her past alone and enjoy the free lap dances.

As for the LSD in a Fiero. I installed a torsional Peloquin LSD in the VR6 Fiero. The car launches better, grips better, and has the "cool two tire burnout". It also handles the turns better once you get used to the difference in the way the car handles. I don't see any cons to the LSD. The Peloquin LSD came with a lifetime warranty as well.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: When you knew you were not getting paid to ship a car off to be rebuilt anyway, why would you care?

This is a very true statement that I do have to agree with. Once we discovered that we were working with a blown engine in one of our previous builds, and the owner was planning on scrapping most of our build and taking a new turn, we just buttoned it up as quick as possible to get it back to him and got on with the next build.

Now from here, we can either let this tread die and Ryan and I will keep building the car, or we can have a decent discussion about the turbo 3800 with the F40 and go from there.
None of the supercharged builds seem to get bashed. I have built at least three supercharged 3800's that have made the same whp using completely different mods to get it, and the cars all drive completely different. The turbo is the same concept in this particular case. The turbo that I chose is way too small for Dark Horizon's taste, but I was on the phone with Turbonetics for over an hour discussing what we were working with and where we want to be with the whp and boost. I also want very little turbo lag and we were working with limited space with the F40.
Michael wants his trunk back, so he can store his T-tops when they are not in use.

The only regret I have on this build thus far is that the heads are stock. I am not sure at this point if that will really be an issue, but if it is, it is only a few hours to take them off and either port them out or buy a set of ZZP heads. At this point, we plan to get it up and running, all broken in and then dyno it. Once that is complete, I'm hoping Michael will fly up and drive the car around for a weekend and let me know if he needs anything else done or made differently. Maybe I'll twist his arm into having a few beers and get some videos of him singing karaoke

Dave

[This message has been edited by bmwguru (edited 12-17-2011).]

quote Originally posted by bmwguru: ok, back on topic.... Once we discovered that we were working with a blown engine in one of our previous builds, and the owner was planning on scrapping most of our build and taking a new turn, we just buttoned it up as quick as possible to get it back to him and got on with the next build.

How is that "back on topic"?

You want to drag me into it? Okay... Lets go take it into YOUR thread, where it belonged in the first place.
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/F.../074780-12.html#p477

I've refrained from calling out your BS about this build in this "build thread" because my problem with you isn't Michael's problem and he has nothing to do with my situation (other than your pathetic, and as usual full-of-BS pot shots taken at me in his thread). Of course, as some of the other idiots (and some of the other non-idiots) have said, this isn't a "build thread" anyway, being "top secret" and all.

That's all I'm going to say about that... in this thread.

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 12-17-2011).]

Bummer.

This build thread is not top secret....I only have not disclosed the turbo we chose due to the fact that it would spiral the thread more off track than Whodeanie's thread when roller rocker arms got brought up. In the past month that I haven't updated this thread, this build has come a long way.
I'd like to start fresh once the car is done with an explanation as to why I chose to do things this way and I don't mind the constructive critism, but by then the car will be built and to my specs with Michael's vision.

For the record, Michael told me what he wanted it to look similiar to. AcursedX's car. I called Michael and gave him the turbo to buy. Ryan and I came up with the header design to flow with the diameter we chose. The only part of Acursedx's build that I didn't really like was the 90 degree wastegate. The wastegate should flow with the exhaust. Other than that, Darth did an awesome job building that car.
I would love to post up the pics, but I feel that we would just get another three pages of BS saying that what we did won't hold over 800whp or other comments irrevelant to the build.
If locals are curious to see the build, feel free to stop by the shop and I'll be happy to show you what we did so far.
If Michael wants me to post up the build info and pics, I will.
Dave

As I said before, details will be filled in when everything is done. That way we can have performance specs included so people won't be guesstimating what power we will / won't have or be dissing on something they don't even know enough about to comment on yet. I can say that Dave was true to his word and gave me a nice Christmas present today. I got to see the car start and hear it run for a brief time. He's going to tune it and start pinning everything down soon.

quote Originally posted by mptighe: As I said before, details will be filled in when everything is done. That way we can have performance specs included so people won't be guesstimating what power we will / won't have or be dissing on something they don't even know enough about to comment on yet. I can say that Dave was true to his word and gave me a nice Christmas present today. I got to see the car start and hear it run for a brief time. He's going to tune it and start pinning everything down soon.

So car should be back to you and ready for the Tx events that we will have this year. Start planning to make them now so there are no excuses when the time comes....

quote Originally posted by MstangsBware: So car should be back to you and ready for the Tx events that we will have this year. Start planning to make them now so there are no excuses when the time comes....

My excuse is that my car will be in your shop.
I hope you have it turbofied before June as I plan on winning @Texas motor speedway.
Hell we can skip phase 1 and do it all the first sign of spring.

quote Originally posted by nosrac: My excuse is that my car will be in your shop. I hope you have it turbofied before June as I plan on winning @Texas motor speedway. Hell we can skip phase 1 and do it all the first sign of spring.

Mine went from pulling it in the garage supercharged to driving it to and down the track turbo'd in < two weeks. ....Just say'n

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Turbo 3800 E85 5spd spec5
11.54@132.7

quote Originally posted by Justinbart: Mine went from pulling it in the garage supercharged to driving it to and down the track turbo'd in < two weeks. ....Just say'n

Wasn't that using that supercharged intake and blocked off M90 case? That's probably why.

[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 12-23-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Justinbart: Mine went from pulling it in the garage supercharged to driving it to and down the track turbo'd in < two weeks. ....Just say'n

Yeah but I have a job that requires me to work 50-60 weeks during the spring so that puts a hender on getting things done......But like all good things it will get done.....Plus I am just slow when it comes to working on others car being I want everything to be right the first time....

I am going to try to make this happen on my car though...I will be swapping it over basically like you did with only changing the manifolds, intake and adding the turbo/IC......

[This message has been edited by MstangsBware (edited 12-23-2011).]

quote Originally posted by MstangsBware: So car should be back to you and ready for the Tx events that we will have this year. Start planning to make them now so there are no excuses when the time comes....

I'll be picking the car up when the weather is nice enough for the cross country drive. If Dave was local that would mean the day it's done, but since he decided to live in Blizzard NJ, I'm going to wait until the winter stuff is gone. Hopefully I can hang onto it for a minute and resist the urge to send it to Dean the day I get it back for the interior and exterior mods. If it's not at Deans, I'll make sure to attend at least one hooplah.

quote Originally posted by mattwa: Wasn't that using that supercharged intake and blocked off M90 case? That's probably why.

For some reason I dont think it was, but even if it takes less than 60 minutes to swap intakes... everything else stays the same, it probably takes more time to build vacuum lines.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: it probably takes more time to build vacuum lines.

And a real exhaust system. Oh... **** ... Sorry Scott, no offense.

"A real exhaust system" can be purely subjective, what would an exhaust system "real"? If any of you know of my 4.9 exhaust, I call that an exhaust system. Kinda.

Your 4.9 exhaust is simply used to transport exhaust gases through a muffler(s) and away from the vehicle. Although the T below the dump is equally as ghetto and a design flaw, it plays less of an impact on your naturally aspirated engine. I don't feel as if I'm qualified to say with certainty what parameters must be achieved in order to have a successfully designed and executed exhaust on a turbocharged car, but I am positive that welding a flange onto the end of the stock manifold is about as far from perfection as possible. A tuned pair of headers and a symmetrical crossover comes to mind when thinking of a "real" exhaust system.

quote Originally posted by L67: Your 4.9 exhaust is simply used to transport exhaust gases through a muffler(s) and away from the vehicle. Although the T below the dump is equally as ghetto and a design flaw, it plays less of an impact on your naturally aspirated engine. I don't feel as if I'm qualified to say with certainty what parameters must be achieved in order to have a successfully designed and executed exhaust on a turbocharged car, but I am positive that welding a flange onto the end of the stock manifold is about as far from perfection as possible. A tuned pair of headers and a symmetrical crossover comes to mind when thinking of a "real" exhaust system.

There is no T after my dump, it's an equally spaced Y, and I honestly don't see how that's a bad design.


As far as the exhaust Justin has, no I don't see it as a good professional exhaust, but I don't view it as bad either other then not supporting the weight of the Turbo with some kind of bracket.

[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 12-24-2011).]

I could have sworn you were the one running around with a T, but that must be someone else. No, there's nothing wrong with your exhaust, that's a great design. As for Justin's, it's just cheap, and not professional. If I sent my car to a shop to have an engine professionally installed, I would expect more.

I defiantly had the m90 block off plate for awhile. As for turbo placement, I still wouldn't change a thing if I started over from scratch. It's so unbelievably easy to work on when I need to drop the trans or anything else. I surely can't find it limiting me in away way besides losing the bottom 1/3 of my trunk.

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Turbo 3800 E85 5spd spec5
11.54@132.7

Merry HanuKwanSolsMas everyone.

I see a lot of people using stock manifolds or eBay headers for these setups. How much does a more thought out custom header add to a turbo setup? From the pictures, Dave and Ryan definitely went out of their way with mine and I wouldn't switch back for anything. Just curious.

quote Originally posted by mptighe: Merry HanuKwanSolsMas everyone. I see a lot of people using stock manifolds or eBay headers for these setups. How much does a more thought out custom header add to a turbo setup? From the pictures, Dave and Ryan definitely went out of their way with mine and I wouldn't switch back for anything. Just curious.

It's tough to say. Generally, a properly tuned tubular manifold setup should be superior to the stock manifolds. How much gain would it provide? I don't know. Also, you would generally see those gains in the higher rpm ranges and the 3800 isn't exactly a high-rever.

Here's a pretty good test comparing a tubular manifold to a log-style manifold.

I for one am still looking forward to the end of this build and will be glad to see some numbers. I hope the build is going well and that you end up with something you enjoy.

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'04 Mazda RX8 Build Thread
'88 GT- 3800 Turbo 11.367@121.03mph (Sold and gone now)
GM Tuners