Son of a ....

Looks like I did it wrong too. I do agree though that this is a "ghetto" way of doing it, although I have yet to see any fabrication, tig welding, and turbo swaps happening in the ghettos near me, but when you take into account efficient exhaust flow, turbulence, etc...it makes a lot of sense. How much real world difference will it make though?

I think we need a separate thread for efficient turbo exhaust discussion.

Good idea for a discussion thread. I don't know how much detail Dave recorded of Ryan's fabbing of my headers but it might be useful for others.

quote I am positive that welding a flange onto the end of the stock manifold is about as far from perfection as possible. A tuned pair of headers and a symmetrical crossover comes to mind when thinking of a "real" exhaust system.

The stock exhaust system was tuned by engineers that make more money than you do... Call me stupid but I would like to think that even my brilliance cant create a better system than they did. You also have to remember, there is 40-60psi of pressure in my exhaust, so upgrading size is not going to get me anywhere, neither would upgrading my "design" above what they could do from the factory.

quote Dave and Ryan definitely went out of their way with mine and I wouldn't switch back for anything

Considering neither of them have ever designed a turbo system before... You wouldnt switch to something that was proven to be significantly better?

I think the stock 3800 exhaust is good enough for a Turbo setup except the front manifold..i'd replace that with a Power log or the like. And of course some porting of the heads where that "lip" is on the bottom.

I would like to do a real world comparison of stock manifolds with the flange welded on like I have, and then switch over to a custom made header with the flange located in the middle of the crossover pipe, but I'm not going to be really starting on my build until 2 other projects that are ahead of it are done.

I have, however, taken some dimensions and will try to laser cut some header flanges if someone else wants to experiment.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: The stock exhaust system was tuned by engineers that make more money than you do... Call me stupid but I would like to think that even my brilliance cant create a better system than they did. You also have to remember, there is 40-60psi of pressure in my exhaust, so upgrading size is not going to get me anywhere, neither would upgrading my "design" above what they could do from the factory. Considering neither of them have ever designed a turbo system before... You wouldnt switch to something that was proven to be significantly better?

Hang on a second Scott, I know you have a lot more knowledge about this than me, but if your logic was sound then why are there numerous aftermarket header companies that make them for just about every type of car? If the stock manifolds were really superior, why would aftermarket headers exist at all? There's a lot of evidence that auto makers don't always go for maximum efficiency or performance. A lot of things were under-engineered on a lot of GM cars. I think you could agree to that. The question here is whether or not the stock exhaust manifold for the 3800 is one of those examples.

As far as Dave's experience with turbo engines, this isn't the first turbo engine he's ever built. He works on turbo applications all the time from what he's said. Now this may or may not be his first turbo 3800 build, I'll have to let him answer about that. I don't see the custom header hurting performance unless they made a serious constriction of flow somewhere. If that was the case, I would expect them to fix it. I don't think even you'll find much to complain about when you see the exhaust system. Of course, you'll rip other things to shreds, like the size and choice of turbo, etc. But those were our choices, were based off of our specific goals, and we'll stand behind them.

GM OEM exhaust systems are the end result of compromises between Cost, Packaging, Durability, Noise/Thermal control, Performance and probably 5+ other factors... they are far from perfect.

However, they do work well in turbo applications where OEM manifold durability and heat control are key benefits.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 12-24-2011).]

I don't know how anything gets done on this site with all the members fighting like a bunch of 5yr olds over a piece of candy.

"There's a lot of evidence that auto makers don't always go for maximum efficiency or performance. A lot of things were under-engineered on a lot of GM cars."

You could die laughing at the stock manifolds that came off my son's L98 Vette. Restrictive would be a serious understatement.

quote Originally posted by BV MotorSports: I don't know how anything gets done on this site with all the members fighting like a bunch of 5yr olds over a piece of candy.

Without discussion, mistakes would continually be repeated. Just because you don't understand what is going on doesn't mean its all garbage. Feel free to trust only those who are in your pocket.

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Turbo 3800 E85 5spd spec5
11.54@132.7

quote Originally posted by AkursedX: I for one am still looking forward to the end of this build and will be glad to see some numbers. I hope the build is going well and that you end up with something you enjoy.

X2.

Builds are always nice to watch, it gives me some enthusiasm to go set to work on my own cars. I see no reason this shouldn't be an excellent wee machine when it's all finished, time will be the test.

quote Originally posted by Justinbart: Without discussion, mistakes would continually be repeated. Just because you don't understand what is going on doesn't mean its all garbage. Feel free to trust only those who are in your pocket.

I understand the BUILDS... that is all I care about. The continuous bickering and nut-swinging I do not. Honestly, what are we in high school?

With that being said, some of you are in for a rude awakening. Call it a new years gift from Cliff and I'll leave it at that.

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1987 Fiero GT Road Racer. 1st documented 3.4TDC swap- built in 1994. 5MT Isuzu, Quaife prototype LSD, HT Tubular A-arms, Fully poly & Heim jointed suspension, Custom 3 way adjustible sway bars, HT Bump Steer kit, Koin's, 320# springs, GA brakes, ZEX N20 and more! Under full restoration.
Toyota Tacoma Double cab Prerunner SR5
KTM 250SX

quote Originally posted by Justinbart: Without discussion, mistakes would continually be repeated. Just because you don't understand what is going on doesn't mean its all garbage. Feel free to trust only those who are in your pocket.

This...All information is good information and take it how you want too.....Some will take it as trash talk while others will use it to learn from....This is a Forum and like any other Forum there is dissucion that gets heated and then of course people will start just talking out there a** cause they know it will push buttons....I myself will be following the ways of DH/Justin for my turbo build because it is cheap and they have proven it to work. I will also be doing a turbo build for Nosrac that will use nothing but quality parts that cost $$$...I think the end results will be pretty close for both builds and time will tell...If information was not put out there then the Fiero would still be running mid 15s and a shitbox......If you can't understand this concept then I can't help you....

And OMG...Ur scaring me with what Cliff has planned for the New Year....

quote Originally posted by MstangsBware: And OMG...Ur scaring me with what Cliff has planned for the New Year....

I must have missed it? what?

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Turbo 3800 E85 5spd spec5
11.54@132.7

quote Originally posted by MstangsBware: This...All information is good information and take it how you want too.....Some will take it as trash talk while others will use it to learn from....This is a Forum and like any other Forum there is dissucion that gets heated and then of course people will start just talking out there a** cause they know it will push buttons....I myself will be following the ways of DH/Justin for my turbo build because it is cheap and they have proven it to work. I will also be doing a turbo build for Nosrac that will use nothing but quality parts that cost $$$...I think the end results will be pretty close for both builds and time will tell...If information was not put out there then the Fiero would still be running mid 15s and a shitbox......If you can't understand this concept then I can't help you.... And OMG...Ur scaring me with what Cliff has planned for the New Year....

It was not my intention to "scare" anyone. Call it a heads up, if you will.

I understand, and can appreciate, a co-operative exchange of information. Its a good way to avoid mistakes and have a much more appealing end result. But it never seems to work out that way here. Typically, a bunch of useless drivel and chest-thumping ensues.

YMMV

[This message has been edited by BV MotorSports (edited 12-24-2011).]

quote Originally posted by BV MotorSports: It was not my intention to "scare" anyone. Call it a heads up, if you will. I understand, and can appreciate, a co-operative exchange of information. Its a good way to avoid mistakes and have a much more appealing end result. But it never seems to work out that way here. Typically, a bunch of useless drivel and chest-thumping ensues. YMMV

This is a car Forum that is 99% men....You are going to get useless drivel and chest thumping along with stretched truth,lies, ect...The information works out well for me cause I can weed thru all the BS..

I think BV is right to a large degree. If the bickering was kept to a minimum, the information would be more readily accessible. A "healthy debate" is one thing. The whole "you're stupid and I'm so far above you I won't even explain why" thing is not furthering anyone's cause. Well maybe the trolls' cause but no one else's. For everyone still wanting to follow this train wreck of a build, thanks. I'm hoping the end result will be worth suffering the drama that this generated.

**EDIT** I personally think Cliff would grow tired of this as well. Think of how a prospective new member would view this happening in all of these threads. I would say this is probably a deterrent for new members joining at this point. It could use a little "tough love" to bring back a little more civility.

[This message has been edited by mptighe (edited 12-24-2011).]

quote Originally posted by mptighe: I think BV is right to a large degree. If the bickering was kept to a minimum, the information would be more readily accessible. A "healthy debate" is one thing. The whole "you're stupid and I'm so far above you I won't even explain why" thing is not furthering anyone's cause. Well maybe the trolls' cause but no one else's. For everyone still wanting to follow this train wreck of a build, thanks. I'm hoping the end result will be worth suffering the drama that this generated. **EDIT** I personally think Cliff would grow tired of this as well. Think of how a prospective new member would view this happening in all of these threads. I would say this is probably a deterrent for new members joining at this point. It could use a little "tough love" to bring back a little more civility.

Just because its not all sunshine and lollipops doesn't mean the information is wrong. Step back and look at where the debating is coming from, people with hands on experience. You make is sound like you know what is BS and what isn't. This shouldn't be so hard on you.

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Turbo 3800 E85 5spd spec5
11.54@132.7

quote Originally posted by Justinbart: Just because its not all sunshine and lollipops doesn't mean the information is wrong. Step back and look at where the debating is coming from, people with hands on experience. You make is sound like you know what is BS and what isn't. This shouldn't be so hard on you.

I never claimed to know what's right and what isn't. Far from it, I have a huge area of ignorance when it comes to cars. I'm talking about respecting people even when debating. When you go into a thread and tell someone they don't know what they're doing without offering an explanation or resolution, do you honestly see that as being helpful in any way? If you offer actual information, then I can see your point, but more often than not that's not what's happening. Take the LSD thread in the tech section. Scott basically said that because he installed one, and has a fast Fiero, that makes him an expert on the subject. Apparently he even thinks this is enough experience to argue against an engineer who has something like 15 years experience with a rear engine car fitted with a LSD.

Basically put think of your goal. Is it to be helpful or to be confrontational? Once you decide that, look at your actions and decide which area they are driving you towards. The opinions, even based on hands on experience, can be fairly subjective. Insulting someone's intelligence and trying to negate their experience because it conflicts with yours isn't really needed. I know how you feel about me, and can tell by your posts to others how you view them, but think about this for a second. I'm sure you can see my point here. If not, give it a few years and you probably will.

quote Originally posted by BV MotorSports: It was not my intention to "scare" anyone. Call it a heads up, if you will. I understand, and can appreciate, a co-operative exchange of information. Its a good way to avoid mistakes and have a much more appealing end result. But it never seems to work out that way here. Typically, a bunch of useless drivel and chest-thumping ensues. YMMV

Has anyone looked at this guys avatar? It's the exact same thing he is whining about. This is a public forum, that has mostly guys on it, and we all are human beings (except Cliff...lol). Bickering and chest-thumping is going to happen EVERYWHERE, not just here, and it will never change or just "go away". It's going to happen no matter how many rules or regulations you add. Don't like it, don't comment and move on. Or just leave if you hate it that bad. I can weed past the BS as well, you don't really have a choice if you want good information.

[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 12-24-2011).]

The only "build" part of this thread was some poorly documented ghetto F40 stuff... It hasnt even attempted a build thread for the last 5 pages.. Why would you come in here complaining about stupid crap.

quote Originally posted by mattwa: Has anyone looked at this guys avatar? It's the exact same thing he is whining about. This is a public forum, that has mostly guys on it, and we all are human beings (except Cliff...lol). Bickering and chest-thumping is going to happen EVERYWHERE, not just here, and it will never change or just "go away". It's going to happen no matter how many rules or regulations you add. Don't like it, don't comment and move on. Or just leave if you hate it that bad. I can weed past the BS as well, you don't really have a choice if you want good information.

That avatar has been there since 2001. Its funny and I like it, next subject. Whining? More like SICK OF THE CONSTANT BICKERING. FFS guys, we are GROWN MEN. How about we act like it?

OP, I'm sorry for the OT. This is a great build and I am just disgusted with all the nonsense and such these builds seem to attract. All this "my way is better than yours", "my tuner is better", "my e-penis is bigger" etc is just getting out of hand.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: The only "build" part of this thread was some poorly documented ghetto F40 stuff... It hasnt even attempted a build thread for the last 5 pages.. Why would you come in here complaining about stupid crap.

Your response is why. This thread went the way it did because of you mainly. Lots of stuff has been done and documented, just not documented here yet because we didn't feel like dealing with your crap. By the way the whole ghetto comment coming from you was funny.

Wouldn't it be nice for the OP of a thread to have the ability to delete posts in their threads? Basically the OP would be able to moderate their own thread to a degree. Hmmm... I may be on to something! PM'ing Cliff now! LOL

[This message has been edited by BV MotorSports (edited 12-25-2011).]

quote Originally posted by BV MotorSports: That avatar has been there since 2001. Its funny and I like it, next subject. Whining? More like SICK OF THE CONSTANT BICKERING. FFS guys, we are GROWN MEN. How about we act like it? OP, I'm sorry for the OT. This is a great build and I am just disgusted with all the nonsense and such these builds seem to attract. All this "my way is better than yours", "my tuner is better", "my e-penis is bigger" etc is just getting out of hand.

You missed my entire point, this is nothing compared to other forum's, like any honda civic forum for example. This is the internet, obviously alot different then having a technical discussion in person. Typical internet bashing, nothing new. Grown men act like this all the time, there have always been and always will be those who do that type of thing. Not everyone is mature no matter what the age. At least that's what I saw during my life so far.

And I disagree with deleting posts to your thread, because if I post an informative post, and it gets deleted because the OP didn't like what I had to say, I would be pissed.

Merry Christmas everyone!

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: Good to see you have put all your knowledge of real exhaust systems to good use by building a car faster than mine. Oh wait sorry dumbass.

Another wonderful attitude that ruined this tread. Thanks, Scott, you are soooo awesome!

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: Considering neither of them have ever designed a turbo system before... You wouldnt switch to something that was proven to be significantly better?

Another batch of misinformation. You have no idea of what we designed. For the record, the world's fastest BMW in the 1/4 mile was at one time built in my shop a few years ago.

I work on turbo cars on a daily basis.....all German, but they are just slightly more advanced than GM

We built Michael headers to give a better sound. The 3800's are known for the crappy sound and we found a way to make them sound unique....don't take this the wrong way, a lot of them sound good, but some sound bad in my opinion.


As for this build thread, I'm done posting in it because it is all gone to crap. I send Michael the pics and videos and after the car is built, Michael and I can decide on whether to post the build up on here or I can host the build thread on my website. You guys are free to make your opinions, but it gets old real quick when misinformation and attitude gets involved. Michael is not looking to compete with Fierox with this build. Not all turbo Fieros have to compete for the fastest Fiero. Some builds are done with country road driving, shows, and reliability in mind.

As for Scott and Justin....who are you to say what s right and wrong? Ten years from now some 18 year old kid is going to say that your turbo old school cars are slow cause their "projected beam infuser" gets 60mpg and runs 7 seconds all day long.
My only opinion as to right and wrong here is that GM is still using pushrods? WTF is that all about? Time to step it up and start using solenoid controlled valves....lose those camshafts....or if I am getting too far ahead, at least use more than two valves per cylinder.

Anyway, we got the car up and running. I need to tune it....the injector scaling was soooo far off on the tune when it came in....it was just dumping fuel. There still is a lot of other stuff we need to finish too. I would love to do a quality build when it is done, but once the word turbo is mentioned, the penis measuring contest comes out. It is getting really old and tiresome.
Dave

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www.hausofguru.com

if you think this is bad....don't ever sign up at the cleveland racing forum!

quote Originally posted by bmwguru: Another batch of misinformation. You have no idea of what we designed. For the record, the world's fastest BMW in the 1/4 mile was at one time built in my shop a few years ago. I work on turbo cars on a daily basis.....all German, but they are just slightly more advanced than GM We built Michael headers to give a better sound. The 3800's are known for the crappy sound and we found a way to make them sound unique....don't take this the wrong way, a lot of them sound good, but some sound bad in my opinion. As for this build thread, I'm done posting in it because it is all gone to crap. I send Michael the pics and videos and after the car is built, Michael and I can decide on whether to post the build up on here or I can host the build thread on my website. You guys are free to make your opinions, but it gets old real quick when misinformation and attitude gets involved. Michael is not looking to compete with Fierox with this build. Not all turbo Fieros have to compete for the fastest Fiero. Some builds are done with country road driving, shows, and reliability in mind. As for Scott and Justin....who are you to say what s right and wrong? Ten years from now some 18 year old kid is going to say that your turbo old school cars are slow cause their "projected beam infuser" gets 60mpg and runs 7 seconds all day long. My only opinion as to right and wrong here is that GM is still using pushrods? WTF is that all about? Time to step it up and start using solenoid controlled valves....lose those camshafts....or if I am getting too far ahead, at least use more than two valves per cylinder. Anyway, we got the car up and running. I need to tune it....the injector scaling was soooo far off on the tune when it came in....it was just dumping fuel. There still is a lot of other stuff we need to finish too. I would love to do a quality build when it is done, but once the word turbo is mentioned, the penis measuring contest comes out. It is getting really old and tiresome. Dave

Or your could just continue to post and ignore all the non constructive posts? Becaue if you do stop, then those that do appreciate your work and updates, go without. Just a thought.

[This message has been edited by BV MotorSports (edited 12-25-2011).]

Merry Christmas guys. I think we'll look at redoing the build somewhere else like Dave said. Somewhere that people can't put their $.02 in about every little detail and throw it off. Then it can be linked here and a discussion can be had about it. That seems to be the most logical option, as it's really unfair that Dave's work is being ragged on like it has. This is his thread and his work, my only involvement is that it happens to be about my car. It's hard to ignore someone who's entire goal is to cause problems and disrupt your goal. I understand Dave not wanting to deal with it.

quote Originally posted by bmwguru: We built Michael headers to give a better sound. The 3800's are known for the crappy sound and we found a way to make them sound unique....don't take this the wrong way, a lot of them sound good, but some sound bad in my opinion.

You assume that because you put a different turbo manifold on a 3800 it makes it sound better automatically? How do you know it wouldnt sound worse? Again you have never designed a (3800) turbo system before yet you built one KNOWING that it would sound better?? Stupid logic if you ask me.

The truth of the matter is someone like myself that has built many many 3800 turbo setups can tell you that the turbo itself is going to dictate your sound, to some degree your wastegate, and to zero degree your turbo manifold.

quote Michael is not looking to compete with Fierox with this build. Not all turbo Fieros have to compete for the fastest Fiero. Some builds are done with country road driving, shows, and reliability in mind.

Hah, it "doesnt have to work like it should because it looks good" is funny. You also brought in the reliability word to this... And it is obvious you are only pushing that around because things "look" reliable they must be.

A bit of reality here... The turbonetics turbo you used will NEVER come close to the reliability of a OEM holset turbo. My dodge ram has 502k miles on the stock HX35...

quote I need to tune it....the injector scaling was soooo far off on the tune when it came in....it was just dumping fuel.

Sure it was... I must have NO idea what I am doing when it comes to tuning turbo cars right?

Sorry Scott, even though you're incapable of refraining from being a douche even on Christmas, you're not going to get what you want here. Just move along. Everyone else can look for the results of the build another time and place. I'm letting Dave know there isn't to be another update here, period. It is his thread, but since it's my car I figure I have the right. I'm not going to enable some punk kid to belittle everyone and make himself seem like less of a loser in life by being a troll.

Scott you didn't win anything here, the car is still going to be finished, a proper build thread will be documented, and this will still be a better car than anything you've built (except for being a track car which I care nothing about). To use your own term, your ghetto building style isn't what I'm interested in for my car. I'm not even going to debate your points, as I'm sure everyone knows how full of it you are by now. Go be a "winner" in your pos race car. You're still a miserable person whose future is going to be plagued with hollow achievements. Good luck with your "business". I hope it goes well for you.

Michael

[This message has been edited by mptighe (edited 12-25-2011).]

"Winning"- Charlie Sheen LOL

quote Originally posted by BV MotorSports: Wouldn't it be nice for the OP of a thread to have the ability to delete posts in their threads? Basically the OP would be able to moderate their own thread to a degree. Hmmm... I may be on to something! PM'ing Cliff now! LOL

How many quality posts have you made in this thread? You come in here and take it way off topic. Now you are arguing about people arguing.

Maybe you should ask to the forum admin about restricting your ability make such idiotic posts.

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Turbo 3800 E85 5spd spec5
11.54@132.7

quote Originally posted by Justinbart: How many quality posts have you made in this thread? You come in here and take it way off topic. Now you are arguing about people arguing. Maybe you should ask to the forum admin about restricting your ability make such idiotic posts.

I was just spit-balling an idea due to the content in THIS thread. if you got all butt hurt, write your congressman.

quote Originally posted by BV MotorSports: I was just spit-balling an idea due to the content in THIS thread. if you got all butt hurt, write your congressman.

Why, they don't do anything for this country anyway.

quote Originally posted by mattwa: Why, they don't do anything for this country anyway.

LOL good point!

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Turbo 3800 E85 5spd spec5
11.54@132.7