Lots of things done today, since I practically was working on it all day. First thing was my dad and I pressure washed both cradles (this one and the spare), afterwords I installed the poly bushings in the control arms. Last night, an idea hit me, why not use the "dogbone" design I used with my 4.9 for this setup? So I grabbed my other 88 suspension link, and I ta-da, I think I have my dogbone! Anyone see any problems with this design?

Afterwords, I finished my main motor mount. I had to use about 1/2" of spacer because of both the 88 mount and brick style poly mount made it so low the pan would have been below the cradle and the A/C bracket was sitting on the cradle. Works pretty good, and it's mount really low, so there is a good chance I won't have to cut any of the decklid! I started making the 2nd engine mount out of angle iron, but I stopped for the day. I plan to use the same brick style mount for all 4 mounts.

Also got the Series 3 fuel rail from Jncomutt and the correct 1/8" steel plate in the mail today. I installed the fuel rail, too.






Edit: I'm looking at that dogbone setup...do you think it would harm the alt/heater line piece or bend the long bolt? It's a starter bolt, so you would think it would be a strong bolt.

[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 12-12-2011).]

That stainless rail looks so good! The stainless line will complement it so well.

Take a look at this. Imagine the red line is the path of rotation the top bolt will follow as the engine rotates about the axle. Ideally, you'd want to mount the other end of the link as close to the yellow dot as possible for the most mechanical leverage. You've also got to keep the tie rod in mind. The NA engine isn't as much of a torque monster as the supercharged engine, but being you're only using the one mount under the engine, the dogbone is going to play a pivotal role in correctly supporting the engine's weight from driveline torque.



Do the best you can to get close to that yellow dot.

No kidding. That was the other place I was considering, the 88 suspension link lands almost exactly where that yellow dot is. I'm concerned for clearance of the frame though, like the trunk, not sure what is there in respect to that area in the engine bay.
Also, I did say I am making a 2nd engine mount on the other side, so the link won't have to take as much force.

[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 12-13-2011).]

quote Originally posted by mattwa:

It has been a while but I am pretty sure that is where I mounted that setup in Nosrac's swap and the last 5 speed swap I did...I built the box on the cradle right above where you have yours sitting...I used the same 88 style part that you are using also and so far as far as I know there have been no issues with it. When his motor comes back out in the spring time I will really get to see how well it has held up. I have done 3 swaps this way and no issues with any of them that I know...I use a Grade 8 allen head bolt up top to insure it is strong enough....Doing this to the 88 make fitment so much better and the angle also...

Yea, it works good with my 4.9 which is a torque monster, but it's mated next to an automatic. I'm building the same mount system as my 4.9, however in this case being a manual I'm sure it will put more strain on the dog-bone. It it doesn't work where the yellow dot is, where it is now is good enough.

Edit: Here is the picture of the same thing on my 4.9..I did not realize the 4.9 setup had that much more mechanical leverage (aka angle) compared to what I doing now.

[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 12-13-2011).]

quote Originally posted by mattwa: Also, I did say I am making a 2nd engine mount on the other side, so the link won't have to take as much force.

Ah. Dunno how I missed that. Looks good then.

Hey guys
So this is a replacement idea for the normal dogbone that mounts up top?

quote Originally posted by Fierotregg: Hey guys So this is a replacement idea for the normal dogbone that mounts up top?

Yes it is. I got it from fieroguru for my 4.9 originally, now I'm using the same idea on this setup.

Hey Matt you might want to look at this set up i did so i wouldent have to use a dog bone has worked great and all you need is a 1 by 1 inch square pipe and blots to the block then welded to the cradle( at the back near fire wall ) or you can use a 85 rear engine strut mount and bolt it no welding just an idea



Ac pump still fits in stock location

[This message has been edited by RULOOKIN (edited 12-13-2011).]

Yea i saw yours before, not going to do it because it's too stiff and gives too much vibrations. I don't have any of those pieces of metal anyway, I'm using what I have. Thanks for the suggestion though.

[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 12-13-2011).]

Busy busy day. I drilled and tapped the heater line pieces for 90 degree elbows and installed them, with 5/8" barb adapters going into the elbows. I made most of the return-less fuel system, I used the F-body's fuel pressure regulator, cut it all up, plugged one end, and connected it to the T-fitting. I know it doesn't look the best, no one will see it and if it doesn't leak I'm happy.

Like others, I got my custom F23 shift cable today, and wow does it look nice! Very good quality. It's a bit stiff, but the leverage of the shifter will make it un-noticeable I'm sure. I took pictures of each end next to the getrag select cable. It's several inches longer, and has a longer throw, which was the purpose of this cable in the first place. I installed it on cable bracket, and I saw a few problems. First off, I knew when I got the select cable that my shift lever wouldn't work, it would not let me shift into the 5th/reverse position, even with the cable adjusted all the way out. Second problem is the angle of the bracket that holds the F23 shift cable was at too much of an angle, it was really binding and was quite difficult to shift. Third, the whole bracket was made out of the metal I had gotten in the mail, which was the wrong thickness, too thin, so the bracket was flexing too much for my liking while shifting. I made bracket version #2, and shift lever version #2 tonight as well. The angle for the shift cable is reduced, as well as other tweaks to the piece itself.

I don't have a shift ball for the select cable, I need to get one.

[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 12-15-2011).]

Looking good Matt.

Are you cutting those pieces out with a hack saw..?

quote Originally posted by L67: Looking good Matt. Are you cutting those pieces out with a hack saw..?

I was earlier, but I recently bought some 4 1/2" metal cutting discs and 7" metal cutting discs for my two grinders. The 7" one is huge and hard to control doing this, so I'm using the smaller one and it works out pretty well, except I get metal everywhere.

I am having problems with the 1" holes...the hole saw broke two 1/4" pilot bits today...grrr. Not sure what to do now.

[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 12-15-2011).]

hey Matt do you have any pics of the mounts you fabbed up to hold the trani ?? the lines look top notch !!

Haven't made those yet, I have been kinda stalling because I'm having difficulties coming up a design for them, which mount point to use, etc. It would be really nice to use that mounting area on the end if the bosses were freaking parallel to the cradle, not at an angle, that really screws things up.

[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 12-16-2011).]

Busy day today on this project. I went to pull-a-part, and got a stock F23 front mount, coilpack/ICM for the 3800, and some wire loom. I bolted up the front mount, but I found it moved the transmission up more then I thought because of the lower bolt. I ground down the top of the bolt to give me a little more clearance, but I still had to add another 1/4" spacer to the main engine mount. Clearances are good now, however the nuts on the engine mount aren't threaded on much of the studs because of nearly 3/4" of spacers, all welded together by the way. After that, I made the two flat pieces of 1/4" plate for the sides of the mount to hold that corner up. Using the same method as the control arm bushings and front cradle bushings, I got the very large bushing out of this mount as well.

[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 12-22-2011).]

Grind down the mount surface underneath the bolt.

I might if I need too, but everything looks good right now.

5 steps backword today. I installed the new ball joint and decided to test how everything looks when I installed the long axle mounting wise. Well, turns out my mounting was WAY off, it's that damn 88 bracket that screwed me up big time. The engine/tranny needs to be moved over at least 2 inches I'm guessing, as I could not even get the wheel bearing perpendicular to the ground before the axle was compressed too much.

[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 01-16-2012).]

Deep breath.

Everyone has days like that... just chalk it up to learning something new and move on.

I have spent days/weeks making something, only to throw it in the trash and do it again because it didn't fit/work/look like I wanted it.

.

[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 12-27-2011).]

You've made all the other stuff from metal, just make a new front mount. I did the one for my sisters 3800 in a couple hours. Bolt a flat piece of metal to the mount, then take another piece of metal, bolt it to the block, trim as needed, bolt it back up, bend, weld. Doooo it...

I reinstalled the two knuckles and connected up both axles to the F23, and I kind of got the engine/trans in a spot where I like it and where the axles look pretty good, however that spot is right where the F23 sits on the cradle rail with the rounded edge of the casing on the bottom, so It loves to fall off and push the whole thing back again. As for the engine bracket, I compared it with Alex's 85-87 bracket, and the only big difference is front to back mounting, not side to side or height, which seem pretty similar. So I can either adapt the 88 bracket to work or build a new one. I rather adapt the 88 bracket, since most of it is ok, it's possible to just weld another piece of 1/4" steel plate on it, offset to reach the poly mount, and welded under it to get the 88 bracket some more height.
But from the looks of it I should do the trans mounts first.

quote Originally posted by mattwa: I'd rather adapt the 88 bracket, since most of it is ok, it's possible to just weld another piece of 1/4" steel plate on it, offset to reach the poly mount, and welded under it to get the 88 bracket some more height. But from the looks of it I should do the trans mounts first.

That's exactly what I did when I installed my old 3800 in Taylor's car, added an extension to the '88 mount I was using. Just be sure to use some thick stock.

Change of plans, I sold the engine bracket, need the money anyway. I drew up a template from it though to get me started.

I admire your resourcefulness. Keep on keepin' on...

Progress made today. I got the 3800/F23 where I want it on the cradle, and I made the main engine bracket and the front F23 bracket. They have not been fully welded yet, only tacked, since my little 120V flux core welder can't do 1/4". And the flash on the pictures make the brackets look worse then they are in person, they really don't look that bad LOL. One interesting thing to note, the front F23 bracket looks really weird/crazy when off the cradle, but on the cradle it's like...whoa. The extra holes are from the first time, before I found out it was way off were it should have been.

I think they are pretty good considering the limited number of tools I have for a job like this (not that I'm complaining).

[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 12-26-2011).]

Your mounts look creative and simple, which is good in my book.

My only concern (and it is a minor one) is the compliance of the mounts between the engine/transmission. Ideally, the mounts on both ends will allow the same amount of movement. You do not want the engine side limited to 1/2" movement, but the transmission side has 1" of movement. This type of imbalance will end up stressing the "tighter" mounts vs. spreading the load more uniformly across all mounts.

To minimize this issue, I typically use the same round bushings front/rear on engine and transmission and even keep the mounts co-linear between the engine/transmission on the front and back... but I am quite anal/obsessive about some things.

great job !!!
I look forward to seeing your updates

if you don't mind me asking, what did you use to cut the 1/4" steel ?

quote Originally posted by fieroguru: Your mounts look creative and simple, which is good in my book. My only concern (and it is a minor one) is the compliance of the mounts between the engine/transmission. Ideally, the mounts on both ends will allow the same amount of movement. You do not want the engine side limited to 1/2" movement, but the transmission side has 1" of movement. This type of imbalance will end up stressing the "tighter" mounts vs. spreading the load more uniformly across all mounts. To minimize this issue, I typically use the same round bushings front/rear on engine and transmission and even keep the mounts co-linear between the engine/transmission on the front and back... but I am quite anal/obsessive about some things.

Right, I understand that concept, and it might be more of an issue with this manual setup, however, my 4.9/4T60e has two of the same poly bushings for the engine, the rubber 88 suspension link for the dog-bone, and two rubber Fiero mounts for the transmission. And it works great so far. I was planning on doing the same thing roughly in this setup, but if it helps, I can use rubber for the second engine mount that is going under/next to the A/C compressor. This will only leave me with the "center" engine mount I'm using with poly, which takes most of the weight of the 3800 and doesn't take as much rotational force as the others do.

[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 12-26-2011).]

Beautiful blue car Fiero.

Today I drilled the 1" holes in the shift cable bracket, tested and painted it, and installed the ball stud on the shift lever. I'll get some pictures when it's all together painted. I also drilled the holes in the front F23 mount and into the cradle in the two extension legs of the mount. I started making the 2nd engine mount, but didn't finish. Thinking about using the 79 dodge truck mount since it's short and will clear the A/C compressor for sure.

I think I missed the mention... are you using Thelin's rear mount for the tranny or are you making your own?

Awesome thread so far! The lack of forum drama is breath taking...

------------------

quote Originally posted by carbon: I think I missed the mention... are you using Thelin's rear mount for the tranny or are you making your own? Awesome thread so far! The lack of forum drama is breath taking...

I'm making my own mount out of 1/4" steel like all the other mounts so far, compared to Thelin's rear mount which is 1/8" stamped steel made to go with the ecotech kit he sells. Which costs $125 just for that one mount bracket, FYI.

There's no drama because it's so boring to them. I'm building a stock 3800..with no turbo or supercharger! How could I do such a thing!

[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 12-28-2011).]

Our correspondence also correlates heavily.

Today I finished the shifter cable bracket. 5th/Reverse gate is a bit difficult to get into, but it should work fine with the leverage of the shifter. Those cable clips are only temporary, I'm getting the snap rings fieroguru found that work great, and look cleaner.
I also finished (except for final welding) the 2nd engine mount using the dodge truck mount. I'm sure when it's torqued down that I will be able to straighten it out.



^Not as happy the way that mount turned out, I'll most likely fiddle with it.

[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 12-28-2011).]

I took some pictures of how it sits today. Not much else, cleaned the garage up as it was super dirty from all my work making mounts.

[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 12-31-2011).]