Page 6 ownage!

You mentioned that you were trying to make this the cleanest swap you have done, so here are a few pointers from a previous swap (that never got its own build thread). Since you moved the 500 connector closer to the firewall, you might want to raise that corner of the notchie body work to get the tail light harness from coming over the top of the frame rail. This will allow you to move the 500 connector under the window ledge w/o any wiring mods.


With the 500 under the window ledge, you might want to consider having the engine side of the 500 harness go immediately down, then cross over onto the engine at the cradle vs. dangling across in mid air.



You could also think about running the excess of the chassis harness to the 500 in some metal conduit to help protect it from the heat. The conduit is slit on the back side, so you can slide it over the harness:


Then you can make a panel similar to this to cover all the firewall connectors:




Forgive the 4.9 pic in a 3800 thread, but this was the install that had all the above mods done. Notice the black firewall without any harnesses visible.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 02-25-2012).]

that's a good ideal. I'm using other 3800 swap treads to determine ideal placement of the harness. since I want a really clean swap. I wouldn't want to wait til i have the motor in the bay to do the wires. then ill have less room to move the wires around. the ONLY differences.between mine and matts swap is that he has a 87 gt. whereas mine is a 87 base. plus ill have just one extra connector for the boost control soleniod. I think his cradle is a little different then mine. but he is a lot of help.

quote Originally posted by Ryanstalin: since I want a really clean swap. I wouldn't want to wait til i have the motor in the bay to do the wires.

On one of the test fits, fab up some locating devises so you can make sure the 500 connector end is long enough and know where the harness will pass through to the center console.
Here is the one I made for the 4.9:


SBC:



4.3:



Then the engine side of the harness can be built/loomed with the engine outside of the car, then when it is finally installed, you can make the final terminations to the ECM and 203.

Fieroguru, wow, thanks for the post! I was actually planning on doing some of the things mentioned, but you added a few that I didn't know about, thanks! I saw pictures of that 4.9 build else where and was planning on building that center cover to hide the firewall connectors. Which leads me to a question, how did you get those bends so nice? Do you have a brake to bend sheet metal? I had to bend the 16ga for the battery tray, again similar to yours, and...well lets just say I'm glad no one is going to see the battery tray.

Also, what is required to lift the notchie clip on just that area? I think removing the headliner and unbolting it there? And did you use new insulation with that 4.9 swap? Doesn't look like it unless you added some on the inside.

Edit: One more thing, I can't put the C500 right under the window because that area is where I'm putting the 3800 computer, and next to that I'm putting the coilpack. I painted the PCM and holder black as well so you don't see them.

[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 02-25-2012).]

that gives me a kinda ideal of something im going to try. wow you have so many swaps. what's the update on the current? have you fired her up yet?

quote Originally posted by mattwa: Which leads me to a question, how did you get those bends so nice? Do you have a brake to bend sheet metal? Also, what is required to lift the notchie clip on just that area? I think removing the headliner and unbolting it there? And did you use new insulation with that 4.9 swap? Doesn't look like it unless you added some on the inside.

Yes, I do have a 48" sheet metal brake (16ga) and a 36" sheet metal shear. That is why most of my templates are in 16 ga... very quick to cut/shape/bend.

To lift the notching panel, the headliner, interior side trim, and lower quarter panel need to be removed. Then you need to remove the attachment bolts/nuts on the front and passenger side. Then you should be able to lift it the needed 1" to slide the connector under and around the frame.

My old 2.8, 4.3, original SBC swap and that 4.9 swap all were done w/o any firewall insulation in the engine bay. It is good from a ease of wash down, but you need to add more insulation to the inside.

Thinking about putting insulation just in the interior, but we haven't decided yet on what to do exactly.

Today my mom did alot of looming on the wiring harness, and I removed all of the currently exhaust components. I would like to upgrade the small-ish 96 rear manifold to a larger 97+ manifold. I also bought a used ZZP powerlog.

Got some more progress done today, but I actually got more done on Goldie, my other Fiero, since I'm just waiting for exhaust parts and good weather to really continue with this project (painting of engine bay). I did start making my own exhaust flange out of 3/16" steel plate for the larger style rear manifold outlet, because I have had zero luck with anything else.

Looking great. I really want my car back now. I'm very happy with what has happened to my previous car. You do the Fiero community proud.

Jim

Why not put the ECM in the factory location? Easy way to hide it...

A few reasons.

1. The wiring harness was already wired that way when I got it from Tstang.
2. The 3800 computer is just too big to put under the console without having the possibility of having overheating problems, in that small space.
3. There is now very little wiring going into the cabin compared to the stock setups.
4. 90% of the wires are much shorter compared to if the computer was in the cabin.

any updates?

Yea, I put 2 quarts of Mobil 1 Synthetic ATF fluid in the F23, and 5 quarts of STP oil and a filter on the 3800, the other day. I also bought another 90 degree bend for the flange, and tacked that on my flex piece. Other then that, not much. Waiting on my powerlog and larger rear manifold to come in the mail, should be here tomorrow! Also waiting for good weather, it's currently snowing. :/ But I would really like to get the cradle in this week, since it's spring break for me. It's soooo close to being able to put the cradle in the car! Honestly not much else I can do till I get the exhaust pieces I need and then install the cradle.

[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 03-04-2012).]

quote Originally posted by mattwa: A few reasons. 1. The wiring harness was already wired that way when I got it from Tstang. 2. The 3800 computer is just too big to put under the console without having the possibility of having overheating problems, in that small space. 3. There is now very little wiring going into the cabin compared to the stock setups. 4. 90% of the wires are much shorter compared to if the computer was in the cabin.

Valid reasons, although #2 confuses me a little. Granted, the only 3800 swap I ever did was an LN4 with a 1227808 ECM, but the ECM was easily half the size of the stock '84 unit. Did they change the form factor on the Series II ECMs?

quote Originally posted by Carcenomy: Valid reasons, although #2 confuses me a little. Granted, the only 3800 swap I ever did was an LN4 with a 1227808 ECM, but the ECM was easily half the size of the stock '84 unit. Did they change the form factor on the Series II ECMs?

The ECM is bigger than the fiero unit, but if it's a 98+ it fits no problem. Overheating? I'll let Mattwa explain that one.

Yes they are bigger. And it does fit, I never denied that, I'm just paranoid it will overheat in that really tight space. There is no or very little airflow, combined with the tight space and heat from the firewall, and all the insulation surrounding it that is attached to the center console, I just don't really like it. My 4.9 ECM is about the same size as the stock 2.8/duke ECM's as well.

I know what you are going to say, " But it's hotter in the engine bay then in that area!" True, but if you are moving there is always airflow going across it. from the bottom of the car all the way up though the engine vents.

[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 03-05-2012).]

That is what I was going to say! It is much hotter in the engine bay. If overheating was an issue would the factory have put it in the small place they did? Has anyone ever reported problems from an ECM overheating?

If I was in your situation with that harness I would do the same thing, no question. I wouldn't want to rewire it or lengthen all those wires either. But saying it's because your worried about it overheating sounds bogus!

I like what GM did on the factory placement of the PCM on the 98 Grand Prix: It's IN the intake box, just ahead of the filter, so the PCM is always getting cooled by intake air.

------------------


Currently in the middle of my 88 + 3800NA swap

quote Originally posted by 85sliverGT: Has anyone ever reported problems from an ECM overheating?

I second this question. Its one of the reasons I've wondered about adding a center console subwoofer. Though I guess the vibrations on 20+ year old electronics would be higher on my worry-list than overheating.

But I get the paranoid feeling. Good to see progress Matt.

quote Originally posted by aaronkoch: I like what GM did on the factory placement of the PCM on the 98 Grand Prix: It's IN the intake box, just ahead of the filter, so the PCM is always getting cooled by intake air.

I didnt like what they did, On a gtp we picked up the computer and airbox before the filter was filled with debris and nutshells. And the intake was a joke in itself, thats the most restrictive intake I've ever seen! I cut up the airbox just to hold the stock pcm and slapped a fliter right on the throttle body... it whines a lot more too now

quote Originally posted by 85sliverGT: That is what I was going to say! It is much hotter in the engine bay. If overheating was an issue would the factory have put it in the small place they did? Has anyone ever reported problems from an ECM overheating? If I was in your situation with that harness I would do the same thing, no question. I wouldn't want to rewire it or lengthen all those wires either. But saying it's because your worried about it overheating sounds bogus!

I would be worried about it overheating if I put it under the center console, but that's because I'm paranoid and just plain crazy, just ask my parents.

Here are some pics. The OBD 2 computer is slightly bigger in length and width, but it's also double the height of the OEM ECM. IF you don't remove the insulation from the inside of the center console, it will be against it.





So WILL it overheat? Most likely not. But I still wouldn't like it there. And like you said, not worth the trouble anyway at this point.

Aaaaaahhhhhhh it all makes sense now. Just took a look at a page with a list of GM ECMs from various Commodore models... the smaller size 1227808 style was only used on the LN4 and Series I 3800s. Ecotec/Series II onward have an ECM that looks entirely different, still smaller than what you have though? Have a looksie at this antique website, you'll get what I mean.

Regardless! Get it going!

I don't understand why you've been so conscious about exhaust cross section and flow. When you were asking about this engine way back when, I remember pointing out the lesser extent of exhaust planning that needed to be exercised to accommodate the naturally aspirated motor. But here, you've engineered a system adequate for the supercharger, when two inch pipe would have been sufficient.

quote Originally posted by L67: I don't understand why you've been so conscious about exhaust cross section and flow. When you were asking about this engine way back when, I remember pointing out the lesser extent of exhaust planning that needed to be exercised to accommodate the naturally aspirated motor. But here, you've engineered a system adequate for the supercharger, when two inch pipe would have been sufficient.

Yes, and a top swap isn't out of the question either. I built it for the future, so I don't have to RE-build it later when I want to upgrade. Same concept with the engine and transmission mounts, being made out of 1/4" steel is incredible overkill for an N/A.

With so much initial planning, I hadn't suspected you'd be changing your mind later on - a top swap being an involved change. Aren't you building this car to commute with?

Right now, yes, that is why it is being left as an N/A right now, regular 87 octane fuel and decent gas mileage with the EGR. It will be a commuter until I finish my college education and get my degree, get a good job, and buy a new(er) car. I have my eyes set on a 2009-present generation VW Golf GTI. Then it will become more of a toy I can build. A top swap wouldn't be too involved, but I agree I would most likely just go Turbo.

Another reason I used 3" piping is to help with the flow on that nasty bend I made.

Edit: actually...now that I think about it, by the time I'm ready to really upgrade, I'm sure that exhaust will be rusted out by then, being all mild steel. Haha.

[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 03-06-2012).]

CRADLE IS IN!!!!!

It was a very exhausting and tiring day, but I got it in and made good progress. Ran into many problems along the way, but it's expected I guess. I rather have these type of problems then have problems with the engine or transmission.
Getting the cradle in was a big pain. But Alex and I did it. Ripped out one of the coolant elbows, but that's fixed. Got most simple things bolted or connected or ran. Still alot to do. I had to dent the trunk wall for that flex piece, and it still touches, so I need to put insulation in and maybe put something in between it so the vibrations don't annoy me.




Had to dent the strut tower for the shift bracket. Again most likely because the whole assembly is further to the driver's side then normal.



I have many other issues to deal with, but the #1 problem is the deck-lid doesn't close. Not because of the alternator! but because of the Throttle-body bracket! Never seen that before, but I'm sure it's because of my mounting, the longer L26 intake, and the TB adapter.

[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 03-07-2012).]

Very good work sir!

IN!

Fantastic, keep up the good work Matt.

Got some things done today before it started raining too much and I had to quit. I got the decklid to close, but it required me to cut two big notches in the decklid to do so. :/ One large one for the TB and a smaller one for the alternator. Also hooked up the clutch line and the PCM connectors to the computer (that was a PITA...that location is not a good one whatsoever), and connected most of the rest of the wiring in the interior. Got both struts bolted up as well, except for that one stud that is still missing.

I hate you! Unless you agree to sell it back to me at cost. Seriously though, great job.

Jim

[This message has been edited by jimbolaya (edited 03-08-2012).]

Today's update, I installed the rear brakes, made some of the fuel line and attached it, installed the coil pack, and some other minor stuff.

Here are some pics.

Sections I had to cut out of the decklid.


Connected clutch line and clearance of front F23 mount (not much).


Coilpack and fuel feed line. C500 is just sitting there, not mounted anyplace yet, haven't decided where to put it exactly.

[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 03-09-2012).]

The 3800/F23 swap RUNS!!!!! IT RUNSSSSSSS!!!!
Video(s) being uploaded to photobucket right now, might take a bit though.

congrats I can't wait to see that video

Well what I did today was, finish the fuel lines (more on that later), attach the coolant hose (coolant pipe is crushed a bit, so might need to fix that), attached spark plug wires, bought and ran some vacuum line for the evap canister and FPR, and a few other minor things.

This technically isn't the first start, compared to what my mom says, this is actually the second start. I had the truck next to us to provide battery power, as the old battery I was using temporarily wasn't strong enough. We just bought a brand new battery tonight for Skye, so that will be going in tomorrow as well. Tachometer is way off, because of what I did to it...meh. Temp gauge pegs when ign on but works fine when the engine is running?! Weird. Bad news is, the fuel lines are leaking slightly, so I'm going to have to fix that tomorrow. It's going to be a real PITA, but I'm hoping for the best. I also put it the F23 in first gear when it was running, and that worked! The axles moved! Lol. Clutch doesn't work yet, still need to bleed it. I did get my SS flex brake lines in, and I'm going to be putting those in as well!