Here is the other short video I took. Sorry it's so shaky, you can tell how nervous I was.


Edit: Page 7 ownage!!

[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 03-11-2012).]

Man the extra room that is in the engine bay with out the SC....Looks good.....

Glad that its come to this, congrats on being close to the finish Matt. Waiting on a vid of it banging through the gears

Thanks guys! Yes, there is alot of room in that engine bay. Would like even better if I could put the alternator where the A/C is, but I want A/C in this one.

And I agree, I'm excited to see what the F23 is like, and I will for sure get a video of it, but it will be going easy the first few times.

it looks and sound nice. plenty of room back there for common maintenance. and the exhuast doesn't seem to be too loud. I like very much.

If you noticed, the exhaust came out the sides. I haven't put the resonator tips on it yet, so that should help the sound a bit. Still not as loud by far as Goldie is when she is cold.

You are awesome Matt. Great work.

Jim

Good job that first start is always exiting.

What kind of clutch do you have in it? I must have missed that part

Congrats! Now get it buttoned up and put some miles on it. I am curious what kind of highway mileage you can get.

Well you kicked my ass at getting the 3800 swaps running. I think we started around the same time. I've only been able to work on mine about 2 days over the last 2 months, it's killing me.

I used a stock Fiero Getrag clutch. I admit I am concerned how well it will hold. I too am curious what MPG I can get, but it's not going to be as good as the automatic, since the final drive is 3.94 for this F23.

Today I installed the new battery in the tray after some tweaking, and covered the positive cable in double wire-loom to protect it. Sadly, the headlight is not going to work as is. I'm going to have to re-route the cables to make it work. Tighten up the fuel lines, and that seemed to stop the leaking. But now it seems to be leaking coolant out of the timing cover :/. But I did run it again for 5 minutes or so, seems to run good, but it really vibrates you when you sit inside. Maybe it's my mounts. Haha. No check engine light this time oddly.

My mom painted both fender wells today with rustoleum, and I installed the SS flex lines for the brakes in the rear. Those old rubber lines were nasty after 183K miles and 27 years.

Here is more pics of how things look, almost finished. Yes, there is alot of room on the passenger side with no SC there.





And a shot of the interior with the center console just laying there.

And a short video of me shifting though the gears inside, if anyone is interested in watching. Smoother as or better then an Izusu, no notchy-ness.

quote Originally posted by mattwa: I used a stock Fiero Getrag clutch. I admit I am concerned how well it will hold. I too am curious what MPG I can get, but it's not going to be as good as the automatic, since the final drive is 3.94 for this F23.

You speak as if it's the truth but do you really know for sure that an auto would do better for gas mileage? It does crack me up that you went through the trouble to use a transmission that could handle a decent amount of torque yet put a clutch in that isn't even capable of your engines output. If you have clutch troubles right off the bat let me know as I might be able to help you out.

quote Originally posted by Jefrysuko: You speak as if it's the truth but do you really know for sure that an auto would do better for gas mileage? It does crack me up that you went through the trouble to use a transmission that could handle a decent amount of torque yet put a clutch in that isn't even capable of your engines output. If you have clutch troubles right off the bat let me know as I might be able to help you out.

Yea I know, I was told a stock clutch would work fine with an N/A, and this is still a budget build, so that's what I did. I did have a spec 3 clutch here that came with the engine, but I sold it because it hit the inside bell-housing of the F23 since it was the 4-speed clutch. I went with the F23 for several reasons, more then just it's ability to handle a decent amount of torque. Those reasons are spelled out in L67's F23 Tutorial, along with the fact that it's still a unique swap, as not many have done it..yet.

About the automatic getting better gas mileage, I believe it would. Being the F23 has the 3.94 final drive, compared to 2.93 final drive that the 4T65e would have had if I decided to use it, and an almost identical overdrive ratio ( F23 .69 5th, 4T65e .70 4th) this will lower the RPM per MPH, which common sense tells me would get better gas mileage. With the 195/70/14 tires this Fiero has, the 3800 would be turning 2770 RPM@75MPH with the F23, compared to 2090@75MPH with the 4T65e.

[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 03-11-2012).]

Stock clutch will be fine Matt. I ran my NA behind an MY8 with a fresh clutch to suit a Duke, never had any issues with the box or clutch. You have a bit more power than my old 3800 had, but you also have a better drivetrain combination.

quote Originally posted by Carcenomy: Stock clutch will be fine Matt. I ran my NA behind an MY8 with a fresh clutch to suit a Duke, never had any issues with the box or clutch. You have a bit more power than my old 3800 had, but you also have a better drivetrain combination.

Good to hear someone else saying this, thanks, I feel a bit more at ease now.

BTW, how was that MY8? Always wondered what that 3rd-4th gear drop was like with a more powerful motor, because on paper it's a huge drop.

I never got to drive it with the original Duke for comparison, but with the 3800 it wasn't bad at all. Sometimes I yearned for a higher gear to quieten it a little on the open road, but I think that was more psychosomatic than anything else, the MY8's fourth was plenty high enough on paper.

Don't worry about the clutch, the stock clutch is exactly what you need. You were smart to sell the SPEC. The ICM board is underneath the grill, so water could puddle beneath it. I recommend you move it.

quote Originally posted by L67: The ICM board is underneath the grill, so water could puddle beneath it. I recommend you move it.

Congrats, on the build.
You could mod a stock GTP ICM holder thingie.

Get rid of that bar code sticker. It is the biggest eyesore in your engine bay.

kidding aside, nice job on the install Matt. I'm envious of all the Fiero tinkering you get to do.

You know, I didn't even really "notice" that bar-code! I shall remove it.

Not sure about the coilpack placement, I have seen others put it there as well, but I understand where the concern is coming from. I thought about building a shield around it so water doesn't get into it, or mounting it on the firewall on the right side of the passenger decklid hinge, but that would require me to make a new set of wires.

[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 03-12-2012).]

Boy, the previous owner really took care of that car.

Jim

quote Originally posted by mattwa: You know, I didn't even really "notice" that bar-code! I shall remove it.

You ain't kidding. I went back intentionally to look for it, and it still took me two minutes to find it. Where's Waldo?

Jim

Matt, my sisters 3800 NA vibrates a lot at idle too and that is with all rubber mounts. I actually had to raise the idle speed in the pcm about 250 over stock to make it more comfortable for her. Press the gas lightly and see if your hot idle is smoother around 900 or so. Hopefully it doesn't take until over 1000 for your setup to smooth out.

I have a poly mount and a tightly mounted dog-bone, so I'm not sure if it will. It did go away when I revved it a bit, of course. I don't really mind it if it's normal, my 4.9/4t60e does the same thing while in Drive and stopped.

[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 03-13-2012).]

Forgot to update this yesterday. I got the front SS brake lines in, the brakes bled and the clutch bled...kinda. The clutch does disengage, but it feels weird. The pedal feels very light for about half of the travel, then the bottom half of the travel is stiff. Then again, even with the Isuzu, the pedal was always on the stiff side in this Fiero since we have bought it. My dad's Fiero, the pedal is light and easy.

Then I spent about 5-6 hours working on Alex's L67 swap, running wires on the engine.

hay Matt did you use sealant on all the timeing cover and water pump bolts , in your last pic the bolt that only holds the timing cover definatly needs sealant !! it goes into the cooling jackets of the block and if not sealed will leak past the threads

quote Originally posted by RULOOKIN: hay Matt did you use sealant on all the timeing cover and water pump bolts , in your last pic the bolt that only holds the timing cover definatly needs sealant !! it goes into the cooling jackets of the block and if not sealed will leak past the threads

I don't know, i didn't build this engine. But I might put the bolt out and put sealant on the threads if there isn't already.

quote Originally posted by mattwa: I don't know, i didn't build this engine. But I might put the bolt out and put sealant on the threads if there isn't already.

Rule #1 when buying some elses project....What ever work they did you always go back and double check it. That way you know when the time comes that it is done right. Been down the road on an install that was already half way installed and just needes finishing...

Like mentioned some of the bolts in the cover have sealant applied to them. I would pull bolt, add sealant and then tourque back down. This will probally fix as I have never seen a timing cover gasket leak.

The coils mounted under the grill area is fine bit adding a cover will nit hurt anything. The ICM/coils are weather packed so they are meant to be in the elements. I have ran my coils under the grill for over 50K with no issues....

I put sealant on three bolts today, don't think they had any, but only one bolt had water come out when I removed it, and that one wasn't really in the area of the leaking, but still I hope I did some good. I'll check it tomorrow if the weather is good. I also checked for injector wiring issues today for cylinder #2, and I didn't find any. I got 11.8V+ at the pink wire, the injector was at 12 ohms, and I got continuality between Pin Blue 73 and the injector connector, complete connection. I also pulled the spark plug just because, and it looked clean. So I’m guessing there isn’t any fuel being injected into the cylinder. I also bolted the E-brake cable brackets to the calipers and installed the spring.

[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 03-16-2012).]

Ok, I am VERY frustrated and confused...I bled the clutch again today, actually I was more like flushing and then bleeding, since the fluid was very nasty black. I used our truck as the vacuum source with the catch can this time, and it really worked well. After that, I tested the pedal out. It felt great! Lots of travel. BUT, I kept loosing fluid in the master...I thought the master was leaking. It's not, as I found fluid coming right out of the bottom of the transmission!! I'm 98% sure the HTOB is leaking! WTF!!

Semi-good news was I took it for a short 45 second drive, even with the leaking HTOB or whatever it is, I could tell the pedal went to the floor more before it disengaged..but that's the thing, it still disengaged! Completely. There was a rotational clack or something when the car was moving more then 5MPH as well. 1st is pretty short, the clutch does seem kinda weak for the power this has, even running on 5 cylinders! Other good news is I think I fixed the coolant leak. Either that or there is no coolant left which would be just peachy...

What to do!!!!

Edit: I have been thinking, I could have overextended it, but even if I did, I would assume it wouldn't work at all anymore. It still works! Just leaks a good amount. I didn't feel any big resistance, and I didn't hear any pop or exploding either.

[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 03-17-2012).]

on L67s F23 thread he only showed using a spacer on the HTOB for the small block, do you still need to use one if your doing a 3800 swap? i assumed the spacer was because of the adapter plate.

[This message has been edited by Niterrorz (edited 03-17-2012).]

I don't think one is necessary, just need to shim out the master cylinder. But either way, I need a new HTOB. Going to have to drop the transmission and cradle again..

[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 03-17-2012).]

Well, end result of this engine problem looks to be a bad PCM. Gotta get another one reprogrammed :/.

But, I did get several items in the mail today! I got our brand new HTOB from Rockauto, and a Spec 2+ clutch disk and clutch master cylinder spacer generously donated to me by Fieroguru. Thank you, you are a gentlemen of scholar, I really appreciate it. Plus, I borrowed a custom cut 4x4 from a transmission shop that used to replace clutches and transmission in Fiero's, for suspending the engine in the air while I pull the transmission and cradle again.

Did you have a stock clutch master cylinder and push rod? Do you think I'll need to put spacer on my master?

------------------
Turbo 3800 E85 5spd spec5
11.54@132.7

Yes, from the looks of it, I have a stock clutch master and pushrod.

[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 04-15-2012).]

quote Originally posted by mattwa: Yes, from the looks of it, I have a stock clutch master and pushrod. I HIGHLY recommend you or anyone else using a HTOB transmission with stock clutch master cylinder, to do something to prevent this from happening, either a spacer from SPEC for the HTOB or a spacer on the master cylinder. Something, anything! It has too much travel as is for a HTOB system. Hell, I even heard someone used a block of wood to stop the pedal from going too far. The problem is, it's almost impossible to watch HTOB travel without expensive micro-camera equipment.

The spec spacer is a very bad idea when installing the F23 (or 282 HTOB) transmission on anything with a flywheel face depth in the .81 to .83" range. The spacer was designed for the F40 which is about 1" deeper between the bellhousing face and HTOB, so it needed/could fit the spacer. Installing the spacer on an F23 on anything that but a SBC (or possibly LS(x) when using an adapter plate) will result in a clutch that will not engage. The spacer will bottom out on the HTOB and push the fingers on the pressure plate to keep the clutch released all the time.

Several people have has over-extension issues with the HTOB transmissions, and it most likely is due to either the fiero clutch master being slightly larger in diameter vs. the HTOB ones or it has a longer stroke. The fix is to either swap out the clutch master, or restrict the range of motion on the clutch pedal (either shorter banjo, adjustable banjo, pedal stop, or shim the clutch master away from the firewall.

Edited-
Please read on, I ended up using a HTOB spacer anyway.

[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 04-15-2012).]

Oddly, I've never done anything with regards to clutch hydraulics and never had an issue. With regards to bleeding, I don't do it conventionally. I literally just kick the pedal a few times. I don't know why it works, but it does. Conventional methods never worked for me bleeding the F23.

I have a little mity-vac that I use for bleeding things, it worked great for my brakes, but not the F23 all that well. It disengaged the clutch, but I don't know how much and I didn't think it was enough beacuse I had to push the clutch pedal more then 1/2 before I felt anything. Then I used our truck as the vacuum source, and that REALLY worked well...too well apparently.

Edit: Is it even possible to bleed it TOO much? Abstract thinking.

[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 03-27-2012).]