anyone know a company who builds them? any link would be awesome thanks enthusiasts!!!!!

http://shop.zzperformance.c...ce-Crate-Engine.aspx

thanks man!!!!!! thanks to you there will be a motor in the mail soon and another happy fiero on the road soon, ill post pics when i start the swap, 3800 sc g6 gt 6 speed 85 fiero gt

Be advised that the 3800 crate motors sold by ZZ Performance are replacement longblocks only. Things like the LIM, exhaust manifolds, crossover pipe, supercharger, TB, MAF sensor, water pump, pulleys, tensioners, belts, alternator, starter, coil pack, ign wires, fuel rail, injectors, and all acessories are not included. You will need to buy those extra parts to complete the swap or try to find a good used complete engine..

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

What I would do is buy that crate motor, and buy a 3800 from pull a part or the like for $150, and take all the other parts that you need and scrap/sell the rest.

^^ Good advice. I agree. Trust me, its cheaper to get a built motor from ZZP. Buy a donor car to ensure you get everything you need. Part it out afterwards and then scrap the car. Use the donor cars engine as a core. You may actually make money this route.

i just emailed them about this specifically, and u guys answered all my questions first, man u guys are amazing im so glad i finally joined , big thanks to all the enthusiasts pitching in on my project, long live the mighty fiero!!!!!!!!!!!!
while were here does anyone have a good thread on hat i need to use a g6gt 6 speed tranny with this set up?

Who needs a performance block? Stock block all the way baby. Just get a Cam and Springs...done save a Ton

quote Originally posted by nosrac: Who needs a performance block? Stock block all the way baby. Just get a Cam and Springs...done save a Ton

I would at least do the heads. I'm really getting tired of using engines I didn't rebuild the heads on that have 100k+ miles on them, and blowing blue smoke out every time I hit the gas when it's hot.

Edit: No, Sea foam is not going to fix worn valve seals.

[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 07-27-2013).]

quote Originally posted by mattwa: I would at least do the heads. I'm really getting tired of using engines I didn't rebuild the heads on that have 100k+ miles on them, and blowing blue smoke out every time I hit the gas when it's hot.

Two Words....

Sea Foam

ok got a used 3800 for about 300 bucks gonna go get it this week, so i can grab all the parts the crate motor doesnt come with and i can use the rest for the core, now all i need to do is figure out what i need to get the g6gt 6 speed to work with it, then its just ordering and waiting until construction

Search.. there is tons of info about the F40 swap.

quote Originally posted by organik: ok got a used 3800 for about 300 bucks gonna go get it this week, so i can grab all the parts the crate motor doesnt come with and i can use the rest for the core, now all i need to do is figure out what i need to get the g6gt 6 speed to work with it, then its just ordering and waiting until construction

I highly suggest against getting a "crate motor". The fact that a stock 3800 will handle the same amount of power, and offer the same (usually better) reliability makes it a nobrainer.

You know, everytime this discussion about buying engines comes up the same thing is said.
I don`t think it comes down to the old addage that you can get by with an engine that has 200k miles just fine.
Unlike DH view in that it doesn`t matter how the engine looks or even if it only makes it down the track 2-3 times at under 12 seconds there are some who may believe, as I do that metal is metal no matter what it is in and that there is no way that 200k mile main bearings have more life in them than brand new bearings.
And that nobody can build an engine better than the original GM line mechanic that assembled the original 3800.
Given a decent machine shop and a decent engine builder, it`s a pretty good bet that the engine will have a very dependable and long life.
Because, as the years go by, some people seem to believe that as the non-rebuildable 3800 ages there will eventually be no more motors left.

Main bearings are not a wear part.... we are not just changing brake pads here... the fact is a mainbearing will metallurgicaly outlast most parts in a shortblock

Fair enough, I just think that as low-mileage engines get more scarce, it is to a person`s advantage to be able to rebuild a reliable daily driver engine that they are not taking only to the track to see how fast it will go. 3800SC engines may be plentiful in some parts of the country but here in Texas you are most likely to have an engine shipped. If you go to a site like Car-Parts.com and enter Texas as the default state the number of low-mileage engines is quite scarce. There is a yard close to me that has a 3800SC and they want 700.00 for it but they can`t even tell me how many miles it has on it. I thought of offering 700.00 for the engine and transmission and take a chance. I know that some yards offer a 30day return policy but it will be long after 30 days that I get a swap done.

[This message has been edited by TXGOOD (edited 06-25-2012).]

That sucks because you will still need a ton of parts if you spend 3000 on the Zzp block... water pump intake oil pan cam lim supercharger throttle body 3 belt brackets alternator AC coils wiring valve covers rockers pushrods exhaust manifolds bolts for everything... the list goes on

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: I highly suggest against getting a "crate motor". The fact that a stock 3800 will handle the same amount of power, and offer the same (usually better) reliability makes it a nobrainer.

Anyone that suggests a junkyard motor is better that pro built crate engine is a complete idiot. Sorry, there is no other way to put it. Seriously...

quote Originally posted by BV MotorSports: Anyone that suggests a junkyard motor is better that pro built crate engine is a complete idiot. Sorry, there is no other way to put it. Seriously...

except a cut crank is weaker... assembly tolerances on the rod bearings are WAY worse than factory (cracked rods).... head to block flatness tolerance is no where near factory...

But yeah, what do I know anyway.

"assembly tolerances on the rod bearings are WAY worse than factory (cracked rods).... head to block flatness tolerance is no where near factory... "

Complete BS, to ASSume that machine shops can't match factory tolerances, or mill flat. My son is a machinist and he is laughing.....

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: except a cut crank is weaker... assembly tolerances on the rod bearings are WAY worse than factory (cracked rods).... head to block flatness tolerance is no where near factory... But yeah, what do I know anyway.

And the junkyard engine with XXXXXXX miles, unknown maintenance history, unknown physical condition etc is better? Dude you have lost all credibility. A PRO BUILT (and we are talking about ZZP) is equal or better quality than NEW OEM engines. But hey, its not like the aftermarket has access to parts built specifically to address any known problem areas or weakness in GM's designs. Yeah, their engines are complete junk and loose as hell. What was I thinking.


Again, IDIOT. So maybe you need to change your wording to a j-yard engine is better than anything you half-ass cobble together.

Again, OP I would suggest you buy a complete engine from a trustworthy yard to use as a core for the ZZP engine. Plus you will have all the extras you will need to swap over to the new engine. If you go the route of buying a complete donor car like I mentioned above, you may even be better off.

[This message has been edited by BV MotorSports (edited 06-25-2012).]

quote Originally posted by weaselbeak: "assembly tolerances on the rod bearings are WAY worse than factory (cracked rods).... head to block flatness tolerance is no where near factory... " Complete BS, to ASSume that machine shops can't match factory tolerances, or mill flat. My son is a machinist and he is laughing.....

considering a cracked rod can not be resized.... A "machinist" would not be able to do anything but laugh... but wait I am the one assuming here.

quote A PRO BUILT (and we are talking about ZZP) is equal or better quality than NEW OEM engines.

I have been to both the 3800 manufacturing facility and zzp's facility.... I can say without any issue that GM invested more into any 1 tool on that assembly line than zzp has invested into their crate engine program. While I ZZP has no doubt found a way to rebuild a 3800 to like factory condition, it is still just an attempt to restore it to that factory level.

I would admit I would like to play around with a balanced crank and 7000+ RPM operation.. but the truth is nobody on PFF but me cares about those features as I am the singular fiero guy that knows how to make a 3800 work in those RPM ranges. The reality of metallurgy is a super balanced amazing cut crank is weaker than one that is not cut.

quote aftermarket has access to parts built specifically to address any known problem areas or weakness in GM's designs.

Ok, a zzp rebuild uses some aftermarket bearings... and all stock parts otherwise... I have never had a problem with a bearing as long as it had oil going to it in my 8 years of owning and building 3800s... Personally I have never broken a 3800 in any form.

quote Dude you have lost all credibility.

You say that like I care.

OK, so I really should be keeping out of this, because I'm te least knowledgable person when it comes to this stuff. I figure that's a good enough reason as any for me to throw my opinion in

On this one particular thing, I believe everyone has some truth to their opinions. Scott has a tendency of contradicting himself. He considers everyone to be completely inept when compared to the original designers, yet he constantly brags that he's the only person capable of accomplishing what he has with these engines. You kind of have to ignore him.

However, what I've read and learned from everyone, is the 3800 is pretty unique in it's resiliency. Due to it's forged internals, it can stand up to more wear than most other engines in stock form. A lot of people HAVE gone out and grabbed high mileage jyard engines and have beat the snot out of them without issue. For the average person, they probably couldn't break one under normal circumstances.

That said, I don't believe that pro builders and the guys at ZZP only weaken these engines with everything they can do. Scott and I have argued about this before. Engines from the factory are FAR from perfect and they are not engineered stock with maximum performance in mind. If this was true there wouldn't be any aftermarket companies. Edelbrock, Hooker, Holley, Crane, etc wouldn't have a market to work within.

[This message has been edited by mptighe (edited 06-25-2012).]

Just a small point, I find it interesting that a 3800 is so tough, yet a tiny bit of water/coolant in the oil from a intake gasket change spins a rod bearing. I know that is something that could kill any engine, but the 3800 seems more sensitive to it.

[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 06-25-2012).]

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: 1 I have been to both the 3800 manufacturing facility and zzp's facility.... I can say without any issue that GM invested more into any 1 tool on that assembly line than zzp has invested into their crate engine program. 2While I ZZP has no doubt found a way to rebuild a 3800 to like factory condition, it is still just an attempt to restore it to that factory level. 3 I would admit I would like to play around with a balanced crank and 7000+ RPM operation.. but the truth is nobody on PFF but me cares about those features as I am the singular fiero guy that knows how to make a 3800 work in those RPM ranges. The reality of metallurgy is a super balanced amazing cut crank is weaker than one that is not cut. 4 Ok, a zzp rebuild uses some aftermarket bearings... and all stock parts otherwise... I have never had a problem with a bearing as long as it had oil going to it in my 8 years of owning and building 3800s... Personally I have never broken a 3800 in any form. 5 You say that like I care.

1- nobody cares how much GM spent on a tool (pun intended) on their assembly line. It has nothing to do with a rebuilt engine. Nothing nadda zip. Much like whatever point you are trying to make.

2. Restore it to factory level. Again, you try to make some off the wall points... What else would they "restore" it to, FORD specs?

3. So go run some 7k+ rpm on your jyard motor. Post some vids. Again, Nothing to do with this thread... Cutting the crank, micro-polishing, hardening etc are common practice and have been standard proceedure during millions of rebuilds. Anything from grandma's Geo to race cars. Seriously, only a complete IDIOT would try to play this card. Keep grasping at straws Ace.

4. I didn't realize, they only used factory parts. I had no idea that GM made all those AFTERMARKET parts ZZP sells & installs. Amazing. Again, nothing to do with the thread. I havent broken a 3800 yet, either. Do I win a prize? Furthermore, there is nothing wrong with using OEM parts during a rebuild, unless the aftermarket has a better part. We arent even talking about parts upgrade(s) anyway. We are talking about replacing an old, used engine with a new or rebuilt one.

I have been burnt by used engines. Personally I really would rather spend my time out enjoying my car than swapping out a engine when I could have done the smart thing and installed a rebuilt or low mile one in the first place. You do what you need to do. Try to justify it howver you like. Your arguments and points are weak as hell. Bow out and try to save some face...

Too late Ace.

[This message has been edited by BV MotorSports (edited 06-25-2012).]

the way i look at it im building my dream car here and i dont want to have to turn around and pull the motor again, to me the fact that ill have all new parts that have a much longer life expectancy is well worth it to me, if ur gonna build it build it right. this is not just a car im creating, its a legacy of an extinct car manufacturer and an endangered model. this being said the newer the parts are the longer ill get to enjoy this 2 seated tire burning excitement driving fuel injected smile machine that i get to appreciate every day from the time its finished on. and thanks again for all the info guys its helped tremendously
-Shane

quote Originally posted by mptighe: OK, so I really should be keeping out of this, because I'm te least knowledgable person when it comes to this stuff. I figure that's a good enough reason as any for me to throw my opinion in On this one particular thing, I believe everyone has some truth to their opinions. Scott has a tendency of contradicting himself. He considers everyone to be completely inept when compared to the original designers, yet he constantly brags that he's the only person capable of accomplishing what he has with these engines. You kind of have to ignore him.

What?

quote However, what I've read and learned from everyone, is the 3800 is pretty unique in it's resiliency. Due to it's forged internals,

There is not a single forged internal part in a 3800.

quote That said, I don't believe that pro builders and the guys at ZZP only weaken these engines with everything they can do. Scott and I have argued about this before. Engines from the factory are FAR from perfect and they are not engineered stock with maximum performance in mind. If this was true there wouldn't be any aftermarket companies. Edelbrock, Hooker, Holley, Crane, etc wouldn't have a market to work within.

its a good thing those companies make aftermarket parts for 3800s... oh wait they dont.

I would look at second hand for high performance perhaps ebay.com.au maybe worth looking at if you prepared to pay for freight.
http://www.ebay.com.au/sch/...c0.m14&_sop=16&_sc=1
None i see listed as high performance at present but i do see 300+ hp engines for sale in Australia at times.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: There is not a single forged internal part in a 3800. its a good thing those companies make aftermarket parts for 3800s... oh wait they dont.

Sorry about the forged comment. I actually typed then changed that sentence after I typed it and it came out wrong. I was trying to say something else.

Those companies don't make stuff for the 3800, but Thrasher, ZZP, Intense, Comp, Crow and some others do. I'd say the main reason the ones I mentioned don't is because they didn't see value in the market, not because they couldn't.

Why are you so argumentative about this particular subject? You've said yourself the heads are restrictive on these engines. Well, don't you think the ported heads available are better? If you had a chance to grab a 20k engine and a 200k engine, would you automatically go for the 200k one? Well, in some people's eyes, the rebuilt is their first choice. It's not your cash on the line (you know, the millions of dollars you make from your ENGINEERING job?), why do you care?

quote Originally posted by mptighe: Those companies don't make stuff for the 3800, but Thrasher, ZZP, Intense, Comp, Crow and some others do. I'd say the main reason the ones I mentioned don't is because they didn't see value in the market, not because they couldn't.

They dont make engine parts.... Upgraded pistons are a COMPLETE waste on stock rods in terms of power handling... Compression bump options are nice but not particularly worth this associated cost.

quote Why are you so argumentative about this particular subject? You've said yourself the heads are restrictive on these engines. Well, don't you think the ported heads available are better? If you had a chance to grab a 20k engine and a 200k engine, would you automatically go for the 200k one? Well, in some people's eyes, the rebuilt is their first choice. It's not your cash on the line (you know, the millions of dollars you make from your ENGINEERING job?), why do you care?

I am not argumentitive, I just happen to be more informed than anyone posting random hillbilly rumors based on the 302 iroc motor they rebuilt with their dad. This discussion would go much differently if we were talking about SBCs SBFs, mod motors, LSx, etc... but its a disucssion on 3800 motors.

OP, In terms of a true crate motor... any GM dealer should be able to get you one.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: I am not argumentitive, I just happen to be more informed than anyone posting random hillbilly rumors based on the 302 iroc motor they rebuilt with their dad. This discussion would go much differently if we were talking about SBCs SBFs, mod motors, LSx, etc... but its a disucssion on 3800 motors. OP, In terms of a true crate motor... any GM dealer should be able to get you one.

RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHTTTTTTTTTT. And it shows! NOT!

BTW, there wasn't a 302 IROC motor.

Well, although this thread is about a series II engine, DH`s general claim about non-forged parts in the 3800 seems to need clarifying.

Stronger powdered metal sinter forged connecting rods are used in 2004+ supercharged, and 2005+ naturally aspirated engines, instead of the cast iron style from Series II engines.

You guys are going to have to agree to disagree because some people want to use the cheapest used parts they can scrounge up and some of us want to use new and sometimes improved parts no matter what the cost and even if it isn`t necessary. The two sides will rarely understand each other`s thinking on any given expenditure. Whatever buys you peace of mind, in the end, is the important part.

Me, I basically have no social life, so I tend to spend as much money on my Fiero as I want.
It may be a lonely existence but I`m happy.
Partly kidding.

[This message has been edited by TXGOOD (edited 06-26-2012).]

quote Originally posted by TXGOOD: Well, although this thread is about a series II engine, DH`s general claim about non-forged parts in the 3800 seems to need clarifying. Stronger powdered metal sinter forged connecting rods are used in 2004+ supercharged, and 2005+ naturally aspirated engines, instead of the cast iron style from Series II engines.

How dare you question him, you hillbilly.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: I am not argumentitive.... (snip), ... random hillbilly rumors based on the 302 iroc motor they rebuilt with their dad...

^ ^ ^
That kinda made me laugh... I AM NOT arguementative!!... funny...
and as for the IROC motor... that made me laugh too as I used to think as a kid how cool the title Crossfire Injection sounded. Surely... There could be no such car part more cool... nothing more amazing than.... Crossfire Injection/...

ha ha... about as cool and effective as the caddy 4-6-8 system...

Of Course... you weren't even born when these failed bits were being pushed on the market... but I know you know what they are and can laugh at them with me...

quote Originally posted by TXGOOD: Well, although this thread is about a series II engine, DH`s general claim about non-forged parts in the 3800 seems to need clarifying. Stronger powdered metal sinter forged connecting rods are used in 2004+ supercharged, and 2005+ naturally aspirated engines, instead of the cast iron style from Series II engines.

FYI, The L26 rods are lighter and thinner, but not stronger then L36 rods. Recently it seems the L36 can take alot more abuse then an L26. L32 rods are a different story, those seem to be the best (strongest) factory rods in a 3800.

quote Originally posted by TXGOOD: Stronger powdered metal sinter forged connecting rods are used in 2004+ supercharged, and 2005+ naturally aspirated engines, instead of the cast iron style from Series II engines.

SINTERED powdered metal rods do not equal FORGED rods... completely different process of manufacturing...

They were also engineered to be used in the series3 motors to cut costs not improve strength.

They are done together in some instances.
Around 2004 Ford was doing the same thing to their turbo diesel connecting rods.

Process Definition
Custom blended metal powders are
fed into a die, compacted into the
preform shape (different from the
final part shape), ejected from the die
and then sintered (solid state
diffused) at a temperature below the
melting point of the base metal in a
controlled atmosphere furnace. The
heated preform is withdrawn from the
furnace, coated with a high
temperature lubricant and transferred
to a forging press. The hot preform is
then close die forged (hot worked) to
cause plastic flow, thus reshaping and
identifying the preform. The
compaction step requires the preform
to be removable from the die in the
vertical direction with no cross
movements of the tool members. The
sintering step creates metallurgical
bonds between the powder particles
imparting mechanical strength to the
preform. The forging step reshapes
the preform to its final configuration
and reduces the porosity to nearly
zero.

I would never use an L26, and probably never a L32, because of the powdered metal rods. The "forged" and stronger was started by Intense Racing, and lots of people bought into it. Powdered metal forged, is not the same as forged that most people associate with strong parts. They are cheaper to make than the old cast rods, that's why GM started using them. I have seen far more new style "forged" rods fail than ever l36/l67 rods. I would run the old rods, or if I was building an engine the new ZZP 4340 rods.

[This message has been edited by LFiero67 (edited 06-26-2012).]

I don`t know if this is comparing apples to oranges but according to this article someone thinks pretty highly of powder metal forged rods.

http://www.superchevy.com/t...lock/1510sc_howards/

quote Originally posted by TXGOOD: I don`t know if this is comparing apples to oranges but according to this article someone thinks pretty highly of powder metal forged rods. http://www.superchevy.com/t...lock/1510sc_howards/

But, ...but,...but....