quote Originally posted by hyperv6: The mug came up and shows that even the Pontiac team were not all on one page and in this case backs up the original use of the name. But the guy who said it was just the General Manager of Pontiac what would he know? LOL!

The fact that the only place his quotation has ever appeared is on a mug, is rather telling. If there was any manipulation of the name's origin from the marketing dept, I'd say it reared up on the cheap coffee mug.

quote Originally posted by Bloozberry: The fact that the only place his quotation has ever appeared is on a mug, is rather telling. If there was any manipulation of the name's origin from the marketing dept, I'd say it reared up on the cheap coffee mug.

You believe that a obscure name was found by chance 15 years after Pontiac used it once before on another another Pontiac with a different meaning and I don't I think it was all that much chance that led to the use with a new meaning appliesd I think we have that well established

Like I said the evidence is there for those here to let those here to decide on what they feel is the most likely case.

I can tell you knowledge on the Fiero is only semi complete if it is only based on the Witzenburg book. There was so much more that has never been published.

After reading through this, I think you are over thinking this Scott. Those mugs are also marketing trinkets sent to the dealers. If in fact Bill can be quoted as saying that and not from a marketing guy or Bill's assistant or consultant or whomever. Keep in mind that Bill was part of the era in his career when the Firebird Fiero concept was new and fresh and could have been living the "old days" when he made the statement. Bill was as engineer first and made his way up the ladder.

In defense of your theory, I have several marketing press releases, some that are stamped "GM Confidential" , that state that the Fiero name was a combination of Firebird and Aero in context to Pontiac's rich performance heritage. Not as the source of the name. The same documents state that Pontiac chose the name Fiero as having the meaning "Very Proud".

Now for the unpolished real story that I recorded on my digital recorder during lunch with Hulki, Wes Zaydel, Bob Dorn, John Schinella, and John Sawruk. The naming of the car actually got the car cancelled once just because no one could agree on what to call the P-Car. There was a tremendous amount of resource wasted over meetings on naming the car. It got to the point where the meetings over naming the car were interfering with legitimate things that needed to be determined to make the production deadlines. Engineering and the Design studio wanted to call the car Pegasus, explaining the flying horse, and continued to use that name all the way though the concept and packaging phases of the project. It was the legal department that nixed the Pegasus name as it was related to mythology. At this time, the emblems for the car had already been finished and approved. I have had a lead that somewhere in this great big world, that there are some sample fascia emblems that have the flying horse symbol on them as we are used to looking at and have Pegasus on them instead of Fiero at the top. I wish I could find one. With out a name, Marketing was then charged with holding research groups with public and whomever would talk to them about naming the car. The result was a document listing eight pages of possible names. I have this document in my stuff that is also stamped "GM Confidential". Long story short, Fiamma was chosen out of the list after a series of meetings again. As stated before, the name Fiamma was laughed at during the West Coast Dealers Association Convention. Evidently they had enough influence out there to make Pontiac rethink a new name. So, now once again Pontiac had a nameless car.

These guys that put together the P-Car program were a very tight knit group. They often got together quite often for off hours social events like dinner with the wives and golfing, ect. With the production deadlines uncomfortably close, the people involved were getting nervous about not having a name for the car. Keep in mind that the P-Car was a dream of several of the people involved, They had a lot of heart and soul invested in the car. It is the primary reason that the car made production in the first place. It was at one of these social off hours dinners that the guys involved would get together their wives and families for the sole purpose of discussing this name issue for their car. In a nut shell, it was John Schinella's wife who blurted out "since you guys are so damn proud of your little car then why don't you call the car Fiero". It was the next Monday that Hulki, Bob Dorn, Jay Wetzell, John Schinella and several other management people called a meeting and got the job done in a very short period of time based on the use of the Fiero name on a Pontiac Product in public in 1969.

If you want to get Hulki fired up, talk to him about the Witzenburg book. We have talked hours on how polished and sanitized the book is and how many half truths were printed. If you have the chance to watch the video of the 25th Anniversary guest speakers, you will actually see Hulki shaking his head when Gary was up speaking.

Naturally, I have more about this, but hey it's the internet and I would rather put the effort towards printing all of my information in my NIFE Articles that I write. Plus all the pictures of the use of the Pegasus name during the various stages of P-Car development.

Hopefully this helps you out with your theory.

Fred

Fire
In
Engine
Reputation
Occured

quote Originally posted by RAREW66: Now for the unpolished real story that I recorded on my digital recorder during lunch with Hulki, Wes Zaydel, Bob Dorn, John Schinella, and John Sawruk. The naming of the car actually got the car cancelled once just because no one could agree on what to call the P-Car. There was a tremendous amount of resource wasted over meetings on naming the car. It got to the point where the meetings over naming the car were interfering with legitimate things that needed to be determined to make the production deadlines. Engineering and the Design studio wanted to call the car Pegasus, explaining the flying horse, and continued to use that name all the way though the concept and packaging phases of the project. It was the legal department that nixed the Pegasus name as it was related to mythology. At this time, the emblems for the car had already been finished and approved. I have had a lead that somewhere in this great big world, that there are some sample fascia emblems that have the flying horse symbol on them as we are used to looking at and have Pegasus on them instead of Fiero at the top. I wish I could find one. With out a name, Marketing was then charged with holding research groups with public and whomever would talk to them about naming the car. The result was a document listing eight pages of possible names. I have this document in my stuff that is also stamped "GM Confidential". Long story short, Fiamma was chosen out of the list after a series of meetings again. As stated before, the name Fiamma was laughed at during the West Coast Dealers Association Convention. Evidently they had enough influence out there to make Pontiac rethink a new name. So, now once again Pontiac had a nameless car. These guys that put together the P-Car program were a very tight knit group. They often got together quite often for off hours social events like dinner with the wives and golfing, ect. With the production deadlines uncomfortably close, the people involved were getting nervous about not having a name for the car. Keep in mind that the P-Car was a dream of several of the people involved, They had a lot of heart and soul invested in the car. It is the primary reason that the car made production in the first place. It was at one of these social off hours dinners that the guys involved would get together their wives and families for the sole purpose of discussing this name issue for their car. In a nut shell, it was John Schinella's wife who blurted out "since you guys are so damn proud of your little car then why don't you call the car Fiero". It was the next Monday that Hulki, Bob Dorn, Jay Wetzell, John Schinella and several other management people called a meeting and got the job done in a very short period of time based on the use of the Fiero name on a Pontiac Product in public in 1969. If you want to get Hulki fired up, talk to him about the Witzenburg book. We have talked hours on how polished and sanitized the book is and how many half truths were printed. If you have the chance to watch the video of the 25th Anniversary guest speakers, you will actually see Hulki shaking his head when Gary was up speaking. Naturally, I have more about this, but hey it's the internet and I would rather put the effort towards printing all of my information in my NIFE Articles that I write. Plus all the pictures of the use of the Pegasus name during the various stages of P-Car development. Hopefully this helps you out with your theory. Fred

Very neat. Thanks for posting what you did.

[This message has been edited by GraterFang (edited 07-11-2012).]

quote Originally posted by Boostdreamer: Oddly enough, I recently asked for a photoshop of a 68-69 GTO nose onto a Fiero. Thanks to 85SEnochie! Jonathan

quote Originally posted by RAREW66: After reading through this, I think you are over thinking this Scott. Those mugs are also marketing trinkets sent to the dealers. If in fact Bill can be quoted as saying that and not from a marketing guy or Bill's assistant or consultant or whomever. Keep in mind that Bill was part of the era in his career when the Firebird Fiero concept was new and fresh and could have been living the "old days" when he made the statement. Bill was as engineer first and made his way up the ladder. In defense of your theory, I have several marketing press releases, some that are stamped "GM Confidential" , that state that the Fiero name was a combination of Firebird and Aero in context to Pontiac's rich performance heritage. Not as the source of the name. The same documents state that Pontiac chose the name Fiero as having the meaning "Very Proud". Now for the unpolished real story that I recorded on my digital recorder during lunch with Hulki, Wes Zaydel, Bob Dorn, John Schinella, and John Sawruk. The naming of the car actually got the car cancelled once just because no one could agree on what to call the P-Car. There was a tremendous amount of resource wasted over meetings on naming the car. It got to the point where the meetings over naming the car were interfering with legitimate things that needed to be determined to make the production deadlines. Engineering and the Design studio wanted to call the car Pegasus, explaining the flying horse, and continued to use that name all the way though the concept and packaging phases of the project. It was the legal department that nixed the Pegasus name as it was related to mythology. At this time, the emblems for the car had already been finished and approved. I have had a lead that somewhere in this great big world, that there are some sample fascia emblems that have the flying horse symbol on them as we are used to looking at and have Pegasus on them instead of Fiero at the top. I wish I could find one. With out a name, Marketing was then charged with holding research groups with public and whomever would talk to them about naming the car. The result was a document listing eight pages of possible names. I have this document in my stuff that is also stamped "GM Confidential". Long story short, Fiamma was chosen out of the list after a series of meetings again. As stated before, the name Fiamma was laughed at during the West Coast Dealers Association Convention. Evidently they had enough influence out there to make Pontiac rethink a new name. So, now once again Pontiac had a nameless car. These guys that put together the P-Car program were a very tight knit group. They often got together quite often for off hours social events like dinner with the wives and golfing, ect. With the production deadlines uncomfortably close, the people involved were getting nervous about not having a name for the car. Keep in mind that the P-Car was a dream of several of the people involved, They had a lot of heart and soul invested in the car. It is the primary reason that the car made production in the first place. It was at one of these social off hours dinners that the guys involved would get together their wives and families for the sole purpose of discussing this name issue for their car. In a nut shell, it was John Schinella's wife who blurted out "since you guys are so damn proud of your little car then why don't you call the car Fiero". It was the next Monday that Hulki, Bob Dorn, Jay Wetzell, John Schinella and several other management people called a meeting and got the job done in a very short period of time based on the use of the Fiero name on a Pontiac Product in public in 1969. If you want to get Hulki fired up, talk to him about the Witzenburg book. We have talked hours on how polished and sanitized the book is and how many half truths were printed. If you have the chance to watch the video of the 25th Anniversary guest speakers, you will actually see Hulki shaking his head when Gary was up speaking. Naturally, I have more about this, but hey it's the internet and I would rather put the effort towards printing all of my information in my NIFE Articles that I write. Plus all the pictures of the use of the Pegasus name during the various stages of P-Car development. Hopefully this helps you out with your theory. Fred

Thanks Fred for the info. I was hoping you would drop in here.

I suspected the Pegauses may have either died from Legal or mythology reasons since that is what has always killed the Banshee.

In any of you things did they state they ever had a list of names thay had to work through. The GM brand managers I know state that normally they have a list of names they have to choose from as before they can pick them they have to clear GM legal. The names are submitted to Legal in a group and then they are sent back for final picks is what I have been told. This is why there are often more than one name for each car being floated around. I would see what the list of names were at the Party.

Either way it looks as if the name may have been in play because of the original car as most players on the Fiero are from the 60's.

As for the mugs I thought they may have been commisioned early and they used an early quote. The quote is not dated and often marketing is working far ahead for releases. With the car name coming so late I assumed it may have been one of those things that happen once in a while where it just did not come into play later like the engine covers shown in the owners manual.

At least you have shown what I basically suspected. The name was in play as it was used before by Pontiac. I just never accpeted the odds it was chosen twice by chance as the odds to pick the same name twice at random were long and I also know GM normally works from a list from Legal of accepted names when in the final stages of choosing a name for a production car.

Thanks for the back up on the Book. Too many people take all of it for the Fiero Bible when it is not. Witzenburg in his last book on the Solstice kind of lets the car of the bag that his ties to GM were tight and gives you the impression he was used by them to tell their story their way. It is still a good place to get a lot of info but any reader needs to keep in mind that it still the story as GM wants it told not as it really was all the time.

This is why I would like to see a true book put out to document this stuff. If something happened to any of us that do have info much of it would be lost. Hint Fread Hint!!!! I know we have talked about this before.

quote Originally posted by Boostdreamer:

Niiiiice! That looks awesome and would really bring these cars back in a big way. Someone needs to reproduce this!

quote Originally posted by RAREW66: As stated before, the name Fiamma was laughed at during the West Coast Dealers Association Convention.

LOL I would have laughed at it too. I'm glad they didn't use Fiamma! However, after 25 years of familiarity, it might sound perfectly normal now.

quote Originally posted by css9450: LOL I would have laughed at it too. I'm glad they didn't use Fiamma! However, after 25 years of familiarity, it might sound perfectly normal now.

I have seen rejected names from other cars and you have to step back and wonder what the hell they were thinking.

But then we also has a Ram and the GM Impact not names I would have chosen when new as they could be taken the wrong way.

It would be nice if someone could put togther a collecton of car names and how they came about. It is amazing where many came from.

quote Originally posted by RAREW66: In defense of your theory, I have several marketing press releases, some that are stamped "GM Confidential"...

A "GM Confidential" press release? Isn't that an oxy-moron? How can you have a document that is simultaneously GM confidential AND a press release and not be suspicious of its contents?

quote Originally posted by RAREW66: ...the Fiero name was a combination of Firebird and Aero in context to Pontiac's rich performance heritage. Not as the source of the name. The same documents state that Pontiac chose the name Fiero as having the meaning "Very Proud".

Playing the devil's advocate again, this seems to confirm that the marketing team couldn't make up their minds how to pitch the name to gain public acceptance. It's as much of a defence of Hyperv6's theory as it is a contradiction.

I know I'm not making any friends here, but the trouble with this whole argument is that it's like having two clocks set at different times in the same room: you can't tell which one is correct, or if either one is. A collection of dated or endorsed statements by the players who would've been in-the-know at the time is the only way any serious historian would accept a different story than the "official" one (which by the way, is exactly what Witzenburg's book is). Don't get me wrong, I'm not calling anyone a liar, but statements that contradict the official story must be supportable by either indisputable facts, or the willingness of key figures who know the "true story" to stand up and tell their version of the events. They need to deliver the goods. If they don't, then no amount of discussion on the internet by people who weren't there will make the new version any more believable except for those who are inclined to believe that conspiracy theories abound.

quote Originally posted by Boostdreamer:

WOW!!! this looks amazing! A lot like the previously shown concept car in this thread, and very Pontiac-centric. Why hasn't someone done a front end like this instead of all the Ferrari knock offs?

quote Originally posted by DucRyder: WOW!!! this looks amazing! A lot like the previously shown concept car in this thread, and very Pontiac-centric. Why hasn't someone done a front end like this instead of all the Ferrari knock offs?

I agree, it looks amazing! Why not give the Fiero the look of a classic Pontiac?

Bloozberry,
I guess you missed the part where Fred said he has it in video as I stated I have information also in this manor. That is one hell of a start. I also stated I heard it was due to John Schinella heritage as I was told by two people involved with the original project. I also was making sure it is known that Scott is not off base as many of these folks can start a story 20 or so years later from bad memories and then it grows legs making us wonder for sure. It makes for great discussion and I bet they never thought anyone would car this many years later either. Many of these folks will live on in our stories and memories long after they are gone. Rick B

quote Originally posted by Bloozberry: Playing the devil's advocate again, this seems to confirm that the marketing team couldn't make up their minds how to pitch the name to gain public acceptance. It's as much of a defence of Hyperv6's theory as it is a contradiction. I know I'm not making any friends here, but the trouble with this whole argument is that it's like having two clocks set at different times in the same room: you can't tell which one is correct, or if either one is. A collection of dated or endorsed statements by the players who would've been in-the-know at the time is the only way any serious historian would accept a different story than the "official" one (which by the way, is exactly what Witzenburg's book is). Don't get me wrong, I'm not calling anyone a liar, but statements that contradict the official story must be supportable by either indisputable facts, or the willingness of key figures who know the "true story" to stand up and tell their version of the events. They need to deliver the goods. If they don't, then no amount of discussion on the internet by people who weren't there will make the new version any more believable except for those who are inclined to believe that conspiracy theories abound.

It looks like you really don't know Fred do you?

Fred is the leading and best informed person on the Fiero and the program there is bar none. He has taken a lot of time and money to collect this information and in the process made close friends with all the major players. Also he has collected more information and documents than anyone you will ever find. He has documentation covers from the early years right up to the 1990 Fiero.

It is ok if you want to question me on anything but Freds the real deal and knows what the hell he is talking about. He has been a great help to the Fiero community for a long time and has established a reputation as being the go to guy for history. Do yourself a favor and listen and learn from what he has to offer you will be much better off and smarter for it.

quote Originally posted by SuperchargedV6: I guess you missed the part where Fred said he has it in video as I stated I have information also in this manor.

I didn't miss that part. But with all due respect RareW66's description of what's on the video is interesting, but it isn't clear. His summary of the contents is vague regarding who said what during the video, and who agreed (or disagreed) with what was being said. He doesn't quote anybody in particular so it's hard to know where his description of what's actually on the video ends and where his own synopsis of what was said or implied begins. Nor does his summary shed any further support to Hyperv6's belief that the name Fiero was originally chosen as a combination of Firebird and Aero, which is what this entire thread started out being.

quote Originally posted by SuperchargedV6: I also stated I heard it was due to John Schinella heritage as I was told by two people involved with the original project.

Again with all due respect statements like this are meaningless. "I heard... from two people..." Which two people? What was their connection or affiliation with the project? How would these two people have had access to the nature of the discussions at the time? What are the people claiming to have videos and actual documents of what transpired holding out for? Publishing rights? The whole purpose of this thread was to try to convicne others that there was a hidden agenda to the naming of the car. Nothing has yet has been shown to lend credible support to this argument.

quote Originally posted by Hyperv6: It is ok if you want to question me on anything but Freds the real deal and knows what the hell he is talking about. He has been a great help to the Fiero community for a long time and has established a reputation as being the go to guy for history. Do yourself a favor and listen and learn from what he has to offer you will be much better off and smarter for it.

This may be true, however I never said I wasn't listening. In fact if you were to disect only what he has said without reading into it, perhaps we both would learn something. Saying you have video of a discussion between a few key players without attributing specific words or gestures to those sitting around the table leaves a lot to be desired. RareW66's post is interesting and his video is no doubt fascinating to watch, but as long as he holds it to his chest it is no more than heresay. Even if he chooses to make it public someday, it will still be only a piece of the whole picture. If the story is any different than the official version, the motives of the people sitting around the table as well as those who claim to know the official story (Witzenberg) would have to be understood to know why there is a difference. So far, the motives of Witzenburg's so called puppet masters (GM marketing) haven't been addressed except to say that they must have lied.

I wouldn't know Fred from Adam, I'll admit that. But from what's been stated so far, he is a Fiero historian/researcher. That does not make him anymore immune to being used as a pawn by the people he interviews, than Witzenburg was (as you claim) a puppet for GM marketing. The disgruntled employee will likely have a jaded perspective that he will all too willingly share with anyone ready to listen. Saying that Hulki was shaking his head during Witzenburg's speech without elaborating on what part(s) he was shaking his head at doesn't say anything except that Hulki disagreed with something that was said. Discrediting Witzenburg may have its merits, but discrediting him with inuendo does not make anyone appear knowledgeable.

There. I'm done defending my earlier statements, now how about a few of you start answering some of my questions. What motive would the marketing team have to lie about the source of the name? How does a manager flipping through the dictionary " top" the combination of Firebird and Aero in anybody's mind? Why should anyone offering heresay information be more believeable than a book with direct quotes attributed to secific people that were in-the-know in an official publication? Again, I don't say any of the speculation isn't true, but it's time to show your cards in this game of poker. I call. Witzenburg has a full house, Kings and Queens. Not the highest hand, but who can top that?

quote Originally posted by Bloozberry: This may be true, however I never said I wasn't listening. In fact if you were to disect only what he has said without reading into it, perhaps we both would learn something. Saying you have video of a discussion between a few key players without attributing specific words or gestures to those sitting around the table leaves a lot to be desired. RareW66's post is interesting and his video is no doubt fascinating to watch, but as long as he holds it to his chest it is no more than heresay. Even if he chooses to make it public someday, it will still be only a piece of the whole picture. If the story is any different than the official version, the motives of the people sitting around the table as well as those who claim to know the official story (Witzenberg) would have to be understood to know why there is a difference. So far, the motives of Witzenburg's so called puppet masters (GM marketing) haven't been addressed except to say that they must have lied. I wouldn't know Fred from Adam, I'll admit that. But from what's been stated so far, he is a Fiero historian/researcher. That does not make him anymore immune to being used as a pawn by the people he interviews, than Witzenburg was (as you claim) a puppet for GM marketing. The disgruntled employee will likely have a jaded perspective that he will all too willingly share with anyone ready to listen. Saying that Hulki was shaking his head during Witzenburg's speech without elaborating on what part(s) he was shaking his head at doesn't say anything except that Hulki disagreed with something that was said. Discrediting Witzenburg may have its merits, but discrediting him with inuendo does not make anyone appear knowledgeable. There. I'm done defending my earlier statements, now how about a few of you start answering some of my questions. What motive would the marketing team have to lie about the source of the name? How does a manager flipping through the dictionary " top" the combination of Firebird and Aero in anybody's mind? Why should anyone offering heresay information be more believeable than a book with direct quotes attributed to secific people that were in-the-know in an official publication? Again, I don't say any of the speculation isn't true, but it's time to show your cards in this game of poker. I call. Witzenburg has a full house, Kings and Queens. Not the highest hand, but who can top that?

Well you have the story from the most informed and dedicated Fiero historian there is and if you choose not to accept it fine if not that is up to you.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

It's hard to argue with a marketing mans dream.

[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 07-11-2012).]

Fred and I have worked togeather for many years on FIERO history. I have the same documents he has on this topic. I will post a list of suggested names for our (beloved Fieros). I have to say that there are names not published . Will try and do this Thur. as it is a long list and why these names were not used.


For those attending the 30th Anniversary you will be able to see a vast collection of my Fiero history. And for Indy owners you will see original documents I received from Hulki on the Pace Car program. Some of these have hand written notes for the Indy program.

Ron T.
Historian
Indy owner #305

------------------

signature by F-I-E-R-O (My Indy on right / #1 IMS)

You edited your last post just as I was quoting it. When I hit the quote button, a much shorter version of your post appeared on my screen. That's OK, I remember what you said. It's perfectly OK to question the source of my knowledge about Fieros. I don't take offence... I freely admit that my knowledge of the politics behind the Fiero story is based mostly on the Witzenburg book and on what was published in almost every main-stream magazine article ever written on the car. I don't doubt the fact that this information was screened and prepped for public consumption by GM. There's no need to flog the Solstice book any longer. I suspect that 95% of anybody interested in the Fiero only has the Witzenburg book to go by. So if it's not worth your time and effort to enlighten the masses with better information, then it isn't fair to say you've led a horse to water. I am willing to drink if only someone would give more than an empty bucket... swallowing air gives me acid reflux.

As for how long I've been into Fieros, well, that'd be since I bought my first one brand new in 1986. I've had at least one whole one in the stable ever since. I am just as passionate about Fieros as anyone you've likely ever met, except that my passion has been almost exclusively to gain more knowledge about the technical side of things. The difference is that I am willing to, and have shared my information freely with anyone anytime. Of my 5500 posts, about 5400 of them are me sharing my information. Imagine how much better this site would be if there was someone willing to share his/her knowledge about the Fiero story in the same way...

Now maybe I'm wrong about this, but because your last posts seems more about finding a way to cast a negative light on me than to proving your theory, I'd like to point out that you're the one who based his argument on what was written on a marketing trinket. Shall we return to finding credible, accredited sources for the "true" Fiero story?

I figured it out and it is simple. Boozberry wouldn't care what you said as his only reason for getting in this discussion is to try and make himself look intelligent. He has argued everything and anything said in a very intelligent way only for self gratification on his part and to be able to say he showed you.

This is sad as many would enjoy learning with some discussion on hows and whys without a total contradiction leaving everything said as 100% doubtful. I also personally do not like seeing people like Fred or Scott who grew up on the Fiero, trying to collect as much info as possible and both having some pretty nice collections of very rare Fiero stuff , being chastised as if they are new guys to the forum. I agree they do not know everything but when arguments just for the sake of showing them they know nothing and are wrong and another is smarter is just wrong.

Boozberry if you do not believe them then shows some proof of the people you talked with and you found knowledge, please . Rick B

[This message has been edited by SuperchargedV6 (edited 07-11-2012).]

quote Originally posted by SuperchargedV6: I figured it out and it is simple. Boozberry wouldn't care what you said as his only reason for getting in this discussion is to try and make himself look intelligent. He has argued everything and anything said in a very intelligent way only for self gratification on his part and to be able to say he showed you. This is sad as many would enjoy learning with some discussion on hows and whys without a total contradiction leaving everything said as 100% doubtful. I also personally do not like seeing people like Fred or Scott who grew up on the Fiero, trying to collect as much info as possible and both having some pretty nice collections of very rare Fiero stuff , being chastised as if they are new guys to the forum. I agree they do not know everything but when arguments just for the sake of showing them they know nothing and are wrong and another is smarter is just wrong. Boozberry if you do not believe them then shows some proof of the people you talked with and you found knowledge, please . Rick B

Attack my character all you like, put words in my mouth all you like, the arguments presented in this thread so far amount to speculation and heresay. Give dates, accredit statements to the people who said them, and allow public scrutiny. That's how one goes about changing the historical record.

Perhaps, but in the end it was the high insurance rates, a market flooded with two seater competition, and the engine fires that killed the car. Nothing Chevy or the Corvette team had anything to do with.
[/QUOTE]

Sorry Blooze but I have heard stories about other things in GM that were shelved because of the donkey holes at chevy. Blooze being here in Michigan we used to have a lot of suppliers to GM here. I have sold them vehicles over the years. I have heard stories from them not GM. One gentleman, Ron Hammer used to sell tooling to GM, told me about a few great engines that never made it into our pick ups because of the infantiles at chevy didnt want another division engine. One engine in particular was from Olds, and with that engine in the 1500, GM could have crushed Ford, but no the spoiled brats at chevy put it down. This and other stories have led me away from Chevy and I used to sell them. I have sold GMC,Pontiac, chevy, Buick and Olds over the past 35 years. I also co founded the local Camaro Club. Then sold my Z and got into Pontiacs. Best move I made! 2007 was the last year we leased a chevy. The idiots at GM in the ivory tower think that Pontiac people will go to chevy or Buick. Wrong. Buick is for old farts, overpriced and has soft suspensions. chevy is CHEAP, plain looking, cheap interiors, lack styling and just plain beer can gm. Our - actually my wifes last two cars have been other makes not chevy or Buick and will continue to be so.

Steve W.
NE Grand Rapids, MI
88 Coupe

[This message has been edited by solotwo (edited 07-12-2012).]

quote Originally posted by RAREW66: These guys that put together the P-Car program were a very tight knit group. They often got together quite often for off hours social events like dinner with the wives and golfing, ect. With the production deadlines uncomfortably close, the people involved were getting nervous about not having a name for the car. Keep in mind that the P-Car was a dream of several of the people involved, They had a lot of heart and soul invested in the car. It is the primary reason that the car made production in the first place. It was at one of these social off hours dinners that the guys involved would get together their wives and families for the sole purpose of discussing this name issue for their car. In a nut shell, it was John Schinella's wife who blurted out "since you guys are so damn proud of your little car then why don't you call the car Fiero". It was the next Monday that Hulki, Bob Dorn, Jay Wetzell, John Schinella and several other management people called a meeting and got the job done in a very short period of time based on the use of the Fiero name on a Pontiac Product in public in 1969. Fred

From this paragraph it appears there is some partial support for both theories being partially correct. While I don't really know Fred on a personal level, I have met him in passing and I'm well aware of his Fiero knowledge and I'd be willing to bet Fred has this story correct. I don't think it can be said with any certainty the name was choosen one way or the other .So they're both PARTIALLY right as to how the Fiero got it's name. As there is some public marketing out there on both theories, I guess this will most likely always be one of the blurry, gray areas of Fiero history.
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1988 CHOPTOP V8

Local club http://www.foxvalleyfieros.webs.com/
Facebook club page http://www.facebook.com/gro...?gid=141412865904993
N.I.F.E. member #461 Chris M http://www.fierofocus.com/

[This message has been edited by av8fiero (edited 07-11-2012).]

Thanks Fred! Have you written a book yet on Fiero History? I would love to have one!

Bloozeberry, to address your concerns above:

1) Yes, there is such a thing as a GM Confidental Press Release as it is an internal document until all of the powers with in the Pontiac organization agree that the material they are sending out to the public is something they can stand behind. Once approved, it then is just a press release. The beauty of the documents that are stamped GM Confidential is that they show the changes made between the original draft and what was actually publicly released. Some of my pieces have the cover sheet on the front where the different departments initialed their approval. Several of them actually have hand written notes scribbled on them as to suggesting changes to make the press release more publicly appealing.

2) The statements I made above about naming the car are very general to help Scott with his thoughts. I do not find it necessary to spend the time to publish the documents, dates, names and specific details on the internet. I have them all preserved and archived and they will be published in a more formal manner than chatting on the Forum. I have a bunch of time and money invested in spending time with the guys who were there to make the decisions. The story above has came from several different people to verify what I have recorded with the guys. Page 59 in Witzenburg's as Dave mentioned above is a great example of how the story was sanitized for the public release. I don't think Pontiac would approve of publishing that the name was conceived as the result of a off hours social dinner sitting around a table with the wine flowing discussing a company matter with non employees in public.

I even took Witzenburg's book for gospel until I started corresponding with the guys involved. I found myself quoting some of the information out of this book with these guys and got laughed at. I was then told how that particular subject actually happened. If a lot of the behind the scenes stories were let loose in to the public, GM would simply be viewed as incompetent to conduct business. Well, I guess that was determined in 2008. The book is not an official GM publication. There is even a disclaimer in the front that the material is true to the best of their knowledge. Don't get me wrong, the book is a terrific source for information. But it does not exploit the complete story. That is where guys like myself, Scott, Ron and Rick have spent a lot of energy to be able to listen to what the people involved have to say. Where the challenge lies is to filter the crap out of what is said and logically think with an open mind as to what we are actually being told. I usually do not repeat information until I hear it from more than one unrelated source. I hear a lot that is simply not verifiable. But this subject currently under debate is one that I will stand behind 100%.

To be devils advocate, maybe I could suggest that you prove that my information is wrong. The guys that I have interviewed have been great resources for information that I never imagined was possible and is usually verifiable.

So hopefully in the future Blooze, we will be able to cross paths at one of the events and you will get to see some of my stuff and get a feel as to why Scott defends what I have to say. Monitoring and responding to these long debates on the internet are not for me as I would like to direct my energies more towards collecting and preserving the history and most importantly preserving the cars.

quote Originally posted by Bloozberry: You edited your last post just as I was quoting it. When I hit the quote button, a much shorter version of your post appeared on my screen. That's OK, I remember what you said. It's perfectly OK to question the source of my knowledge about Fieros. I don't take offence... I freely admit that my knowledge of the politics behind the Fiero story is based mostly on the Witzenburg book and on what was published in almost every main-stream magazine article ever written on the car. I don't doubt the fact that this information was screened and prepped for public consumption by GM. There's no need to flog the Solstice book any longer. I suspect that 95% of anybody interested in the Fiero only has the Witzenburg book to go by. So if it's not worth your time and effort to enlighten the masses with better information, then it isn't fair to say you've led a horse to water. I am willing to drink if only someone would give more than an empty bucket... swallowing air gives me acid reflux. As for how long I've been into Fieros, well, that'd be since I bought my first one brand new in 1986. I've had at least one whole one in the stable ever since. I am just as passionate about Fieros as anyone you've likely ever met, except that my passion has been almost exclusively to gain more knowledge about the technical side of things. The difference is that I am willing to, and have shared my information freely with anyone anytime. Of my 5500 posts, about 5400 of them are me sharing my information. Imagine how much better this site would be if there was someone willing to share his/her knowledge about the Fiero story in the same way... Now maybe I'm wrong about this, but because your last posts seems more about finding a way to cast a negative light on me than to proving your theory, I'd like to point out that you're the one who based his argument on what was written on a marketing trinket. Shall we return to finding credible, accredited sources for the "true" Fiero story?

Nothing negitive just trying to qualify your back ground nothing to get paranoid over. A lot of post do not mean any of us know anything. Some of the best informed speak when needed to help just not to post.

I found my Credible source for the true story as Fred is the real deal and I will bow to his info. I know him, I know who he knows and will stand on what he states. So at this point I am good. If you want to disagree that is fine. The fact is much of the true Fiero history is not all in books and you have to dig for it. When a car like this is built under cover from the parent company many things are not made public then nor now unless someone asks.

The first thing you would learn if you dig into the Fiero history as a few of us have is there is a lot more there and most of the info was never made public as of yet. Cars like the Vette etc have 25 books a year published on them when we get a book on the Fiero about ever 25 years.

The best I can recomend is that there are a few people here that do know more than you or I and they need to be listened to as you and I could just learn something.

If all you do is look to published books from 30 years ago you will never learn much. The few here that have taken the time to learn, record and document what many of the Fiero team members have shared do so with good intent on letting the rest of us what they learned.

So to put it to rest for me I have known Fred and trust him as anything he has shared has never been off. It is all based on what he was told by those who built the car. While it may differ than some published accounts that is to be expected as with the way this program went and my first hand knowledge of how GM worked.

So I have my answer. If you want to argue more you will have to find someone else.

FYI: Ron above also is a deeply respected and dedicated historian. He could share nearly as much as Fred. He also could share more on the Pace Cars than anyone to be found. As for history Fred and Ron are the two best souces for info you will find on the Fiero. To disrguard them will only be a loss on your part. I know a lot of Fiero history but I also know enough if they correct me I have it wrong.

Sorry for the fast edit but I termed things in a way that I thought best to restate. I am not out for an argument or fight I just wanted the answer and I got mine.

[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 07-12-2012).]

quote Originally posted by RAREW66: To be devils advocate, maybe I could suggest that you prove that my information is wrong.

First, the burden of proof lies with the one attempting to change the historical record... something I gather you are doing with great effort and expense. My hat's off to you, and I understand why you may not be ready or willing to disclose the information you have on the internet. But then you are not the one who started this thread challenging the official GM story on how the Fiero got it's name.

Second, once all the rhetoric has been boiled off this thread, the bottom line is that nothing to date conclusively supports Hyperv6's theory that the name was chosen from an earlier combination of Firebird and Aero, and later marketed as an Italian word meaning "very proud". Even the chronology of the events you spoke about in your first post support the fact that "Fiero" was blurted out at a party as a word meaning proud, and then "the next Monday that Hulki, Bob Dorn, Jay Wetzell, John Schinella and several other management people called a meeting and got the job done in a very short period of time based on the use of the Fiero name on a Pontiac Product in public in 1969."

The rest of this discussion has been a debate over whether unsupported statements, regardless of who makes the claim, constitute fact.

quote Originally posted by RAREW66: So hopefully in the future Blooze, we will be able to cross paths at one of the events and you will get to see some of my stuff and get a feel as to why Scott defends what I have to say.

I would be honored to meet you, though sadly this is very unlikely.

quote Originally posted by Ang84Indy: I agree, it looks amazing! Why not give the Fiero the look of a classic Pontiac?

because the Fiero was to bring new people into the showroom. Do you remember the Pontiacs from the late 70s early 80s? I am glad that the Fiero was different than the rest of the line up (in style).

quote Originally posted by jaskispyder: because the Fiero was to bring new people into the showroom. Do you remember the Pontiacs from the late 70s early 80s? I am glad that the Fiero was different than the rest of the line up (in style).

I was referring to the people that customize Fieros. I to am glad that the Fiero had a different look from other cars of the time.

quote Originally posted by Bloozberry: My apologies Scott, I was typing while you were. I've also said all I want to say on this subject and am glad you found the answer you were looking for. Regards.

No problem!

I am good with what Fred has as I know the quality of his work. I hope you can find the trust in some unpublished work as you really limit your knowledge and will miss out on a lot of "good" info. This is really true in the case of the Fiero as so little of this info will ever get published anywhere. It will be up to us to authenticate and pass this info on or it will be lost for ever.

I am still waiting for a friend whose father passed away two years ago to find the blue prints for the cradle as he worked at MTD in Brookpark Ohio by me and had this and a few other things. Rick B

Some of the best things have come from the suppliers. That is where John found the 1990 Emblems when he was doing work for Dott industries.

It is amazing what stuff may be on the shelfs of some of the suppliers yet.

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