Correct me if I'm wrong but, I believe the only way to know if an 88 is a true CJB is by the option code on the fender sticker? The VIN will not indicate any such option. I've previously done the research to satisfy myself on my T Top Formula, it is what I claim it to be. Is there any other way to verify?

The reason I'm asking is a potential buyer recently challenged whether or not my 88 Formula is a true CJB even though the fender sticker obviously shows that option. He insinuated that I could have had a replica fender sticker made up. Yeah, like that's gonna happen.

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Ron
We learn good judgement by exercising bad judgement. Such is the human condition, as sad as that sounds.

http://www.fierottop.com/registry/

There are some minor differences with the weather stripping.
Where the edge of the headliner fabric wraps around the opening, the "trim" (for lack of a better word) that covers the edge of the fabric is molded in to the CJB weatherstrip.
As I understand it, the non-CJB trim is a separate piece. I could be mistaken, however.

There is someone on the forum that makes reproduction RPO stickers that are close to the originals. So, in theory, yes you could have had one made. I don't remember being able to decode the VIN to find out if it was CJB other than running the VIN to see if it was slated and sent to become a CJB car. If it was tasked as such it should reflect it in the ROP sticker prior to leaving the factory for T-Tops.

quote Originally posted by Raydar: There are some minor differences with the weather stripping. Where the edge of the headliner fabric wraps around the opening, the "trim" (for lack of a better word) that covers the edge of the fabric is molded in to the CJB weatherstrip. As I understand it, the non-CJB trim is a separate piece. I could be mistaken, however.

You are correct! The only differences from NON-CJB to CJB cars is the weather strips, all 4 weather strips are different.

Anyone wants to challange you on this to the point that you faked the sticker is nuts. The time and money it would take to fake the sticker really would mean little to the value of the car.

Lets face it the value is in the t top itself and the condition.

Not worth selling to someone that "concerned", hes just trying to get yor price down most likey.

quote Originally posted by 2.5: Not worth selling to someone that "concerned"...

My thoughts as well.
I know it's not your style, but I might suggest that he go shop elsewhere.

So....everything matches between the VIN, the RPO sticker, and what is actually on the car. Yeah, I agree with the others...this is not worth putting effort into researching. "Here is the car, here is the price, take it or leave it." If he is that concerned about it, perhaps he should do some of his own research.

Tell the buyer to take a hike...

If he really wants it he will buy it if not he is just jerking you around. If he really wants the car he will call.

I probably should have been more specific or provided more details but, I doubt the potential buyer will return with any money. That really doesn't bother me, I set a price and told him he could buy it or not. But, it really ticked me off that my integrity was challenged like that and I was looking for a fool proof way to shove........... OK, prove my claim. The RPO sticker (though old and faded) clearly indicates CJB. What he wanted was VIN proof and to my knowledge, that is simply not available.

Regardless, the T Top Registry Site will have to do. Thanks for providing that info. I had forgotten about it.

Thanks to everyone for their responses.

Edited:

Complete VIN: 1G2PE1198JP218607

It was 544 of 1252 to have T-Tops installed.
It was delivered to Greentree Pontiac.
Cars & Concepts received it on 4-15-88.
Cars & Concepts shipped it on 4-29-88.


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Ron
We learn good judgement by exercising bad judgement. Such is the human condition, as sad as that sounds.

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 10-17-2012).]

I agree with letting the jerk take a hike. There are lots of options not identified by the VIN. The RPO is the official record of which options are factory. I think the T-Top registry is excellent documentation, but doesn't the window sticker also identify the CJB code and can't you get a reproduction from PHS?

quote Originally posted by jazz4cash: I agree with letting the jerk take a hike. There are lots of options not identified by the VIN. The RPO is the official record of which options are factory. I think the T-Top registry is excellent documentation, but doesn't the window sticker also identify the CJB code and can't you get a reproduction from PHS?

You are most likely correct but, I've got a feeling the potential buyer would have questioned any "reproduction" evidence provided. I doubt that it really matters anyway, I think he was a looker and a tire kicker, not a buyer. Thanks for the comments.

Ron,

There are other ways to have what is technically a CJB top car. I know that you have seen my red t-top at the house and maybe at shows. It was originally a hard top but I "borrowed" the components from another 88 Fiero and installed it on my Mera. While it may not be a factory installed 88 t-top, it is an 88 t-top installed on an 88 vehicle and has the correct CJB seals. I would feel justified in calling my car a CJB vehicle if anyone ever asked or cared about how it got there.

Nelson

Lets face it the CJB is not adding value along the lines like a 455 SD does to a Trans Am or a 421 SD adds to a Super Duty Catalina to the general collector. Yes it may add a little to a few Fiero code crunchers but that is it.

The truth is the tops were installed at Cars and Concepts in Michigan as a supplier install not on the Pontiac line. This is how and where many of the retro dealer installed tops were also installed by the same staff. Other than some paperwork a RPO code and some seals the tops are pretty much all the same.

The value in general is the T Top and the condition anymore. CJB is worthless if your seals are ripped and your glass is scratched up. The lack of parts has made condition above all other things the leading terms of value.

As hard as we may try other than the Power Steering there are few super rare holy grail type options to the Fiero. Anymore Condition Condition Condition with the most options is where the value is. The Fieros were all built pretty much the same and there were really not much in the way of a 1 of 5 built rare perfomace options like on a 1960's COPO car. That is just how they did it in the 80's.

The CJB will not hurt anything if you have it but I just don't see the added value one way or the other outside a small group of collectors.

One thing for all of us is if you drop one top your screwed unless you have a extra NOS top or can find a clean used one. Hense my coined term the death grip when removing.

Any way that is just the way I see it for what it is worth.

quote Originally posted by hnthomps: Ron, There are other ways to have what is technically a CJB top car. I know that you have seen my red t-top at the house and maybe at shows. It was originally a hard top but I "borrowed" the components from another 88 Fiero and installed it on my Mera. While it may not be a factory installed 88 t-top, it is an 88 t-top installed on an 88 vehicle and has the correct CJB seals. I would feel justified in calling my car a CJB vehicle if anyone ever asked or cared about how it got there. Nelson

but its not a real CJB so don't call it one. The VIN will not be in the registry, C&C did not do the conversion, and when your car was sold, it did'nt have TTOPS. You can put a GT rear clip, ground effects and all the other GT parts on a coupe, and its still a coupe that has been made into a clone of a GT.

Rob

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88 Coupe, CJB T-TOP, LS376 and a GT clip
88 GT, ex-parts car, 3800NA/Auto swap underway
Build Thread: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/083204.html
Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAH9yjw6XR0
Web Site: http://www.vafieros.com/
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/pag...ciation/471024735229

quote Originally posted by hyperv6: Lets face it the CJB is not adding value along the lines like a 455 SD does to a Trans Am or a 421 SD adds to a Super Duty Catalina to the general collector. Yes it may add a little to a few Fiero code crunchers but that is it. The truth is the tops were installed at Cars and Concepts in Michigan as a supplier install not on the Pontiac line. This is how and where many of the retro dealer installed tops were also installed by the same staff. Other than some paperwork a RPO code and some seals the tops are pretty much all the same. The value in general is the T Top and the condition anymore. CJB is worthless if your seals are ripped and your glass is scratched up. The lack of parts has made condition above all other things the leading terms of value. As hard as we may try other than the Power Steering there are few super rare holy grail type options to the Fiero. Anymore Condition Condition Condition with the most options is where the value is. The Fieros were all built pretty much the same and there were really not much in the way of a 1 of 5 built rare perfomace options like on a 1960's COPO car. That is just how they did it in the 80's. The CJB will not hurt anything if you have it but I just don't see the added value one way or the other outside a small group of collectors. One thing for all of us is if you drop one top your screwed unless you have a extra NOS top or can find a clean used one. Hense my coined term the death grip when removing. Any way that is just the way I see it for what it is worth.

I agree with you....However. If the car is not a CJB, you have no idea who installed them. Could have been a) C&C, b) a reputable body shop, or c) me and my brother working out of my garage. For my car it's C.

I would expect that most buyers might actually care about that distinction as important versus some being only some obscure code that no one cares about.

And T-tops parts are not that hard to find. Maybe not cheap, but definitely not hard to find. If you have the bucks you could easily grab two or three complete t-top kits off this forum in about 5 minutes.

quote Originally posted by jscott1: I agree with you....However. If the car is not a CJB, you have no idea who installed them. Could have been a) C&C, b) a reputable body shop, or c) me and my brother working out of my garage. For my car it's C. I would expect that most buyers might actually care about that distinction as important versus some being only some obscure code that no one cares about. And T-tops parts are not that hard to find. Maybe not cheap, but definitely not hard to find. If you have the bucks you could easily grab two or three complete t-top kits off this forum in about 5 minutes.

If it was done by C&C or a approved C&C installer it will have a sticker in the door jam as long as no one removed it.

I have studied most installs that the 88 cars are often the ones who do not line up the trim well. They were done a small line and they kept them moving. The other installs were done by Trained C&C intallers and they often were done over two days.

Now I know many have cut them out and moved them but these cars will lack the sticker or any paperwork so these are the cars you just will need to check out. Putting in the roof is not hard it is more of a challange of nerves than anything else. Most people with a decent set of tools and skill can install them. The key is to support the car well as you do the install with the center cut out. Also getting the rivet in properly is also key.

Generally one drive in the car will tell you how solid the install is.

Hmm, gonna have to go take a look for those stickers, I don't remember ever seeing them. Mine does have the CJB code option on the RPO sticker though.

Regardless, I'm convinced mine is a CJB car. As far as converted T Top cars that were not done by C&C are concerned, they are still a valued and note worthly option that adds a cool factor to the car. I've seen Nelson's and I know who did the conversion. It's first class and that's all there is to it.

In closing, now that I've decided to lean the herd a bit, if anyone knows someone interested in a really nice 88 Formula T Top, mine is available. I've kept it for years because the wife likes it best but, she hasn't put any miles on it in so long, it just sits there taking up space. No, I'm not giving it away but would consider a trade for something that interested me.

Thanks for all the comments.

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Ron
We learn good judgement by exercising bad judgement. Such is the human condition, as sad as that sounds.

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 10-19-2012).]

I don't have a picture at the moment but in the drivers side door jam there is a silver sticker (almost looks like aluminum foil) from C&C with some install information on it.

If you have a sticker or paperwork then great it's a CJB. But lack of a sticker doesn't tell you anything. After 25 years there are plenty of chances for the sticker to have been removed.

It's up to the buyer to look at the install and judge for themselves in either case. As pointed out earlier the CJB installs are not automatically all that much better, and many things could have happened to tweak the car.

All things considered I love the t-top. I like the open air feeling of the car. In my opinion it's the best possible design solution for an open roof Fiero. More so than most cars because there's no room to store a hard targa top and a convertible has to deal with the heat from the engine.

The sticker is gone from my 85 it came off years ago. I think I have it in a Pontiac book some where. I would say many came off.

The best part of the T top is it was the only way to give the car some rigidity and still remove the top. Too few of the convets and targa tops supported the car properly. In many cases I would almost be affraid to be in a crash in some of them. Cutting the top removes a lot of support. I know the T tops lose some support not a lot but some. The car has less cross support and more cowl shake.

quote Originally posted by hyperv6: The sticker is gone from my 85 it came off years ago. I think I have it in a Pontiac book some where. I would say many came off. The best part of the T top is it was the only way to give the car some rigidity and still remove the top. Too few of the convets and targa tops supported the car properly. In many cases I would almost be affraid to be in a crash in some of them. Cutting the top removes a lot of support. I know the T tops lose some support not a lot but some. The car has less cross support and more cowl shake.

Well, that sticker thing came up a couple of days ago and to show you how concerned I was about it, I still haven't walked out and actually checked to see it it's there or not. I'll try to remember to do it tomorrow.

As to the rigidiity issue, I'm getting ready to cut the top off of a 88 Coupe that has been retrofitted with frame rail support and center tunnel reinforcement, I guess we'll see what happens. The end result is supposed to be a roadster. As I said, we'll see.

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Ron
We learn good judgement by exercising bad judgement. Such is the human condition, as sad as that sounds.

quote Originally posted by blackrams: Well, that sticker thing came up a couple of days ago and to show you how concerned I was about it, I still haven't walked out and actually checked to see it it's there or not. I'll try to remember to do it tomorrow. ...

My Formula was a CJB coded car. I don't remember seeing the sticker.

OTOH, a friend who has an 86 SE with T-tops has the sticker. Its on the driver's side door jamb, right near the striker bolt.

quote Originally posted by Raydar: My Formula was a CJB coded car. I don't remember seeing the sticker. OTOH, a friend who has an 86 SE with T-tops has the sticker. Its on the driver's side door jamb, right near the striker bolt.

Well, that brings up a question in my mind, do any 88s have this sticker on the door pillar or was that only for previous year models? Obviously, prior to 88, there was no CJB option from Pontiac. Hmm, so many things to consider.

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Ron
We learn good judgement by exercising bad judgement. Such is the human condition, as sad as that sounds.

I have never seen the sticker on the 88 cars but the dealer install tops have them. It if I recall was a sticker that pretty much stated the top was an approved install by C&C and I think they dated them. I need to go out and look at mine too. I think mine came off if I recall back in the late 80's. The sticker came in the kits.

If you are cutting the top you did the right thing stiffening the car. You will still lose some rigidity by this will help cut it down a lot. Most convertibles and T tops all lose some stiffness as it is just simple engineering when you cut away support.

I have seen some of the better convertibles get good support and they work well while others you an see the doors move when you hit a bump.

The T tops could really use a x support on the pan. the t top car twist more than anything. Having owned and driven my car with the solid top and t top I know the differences. Also mine is as tight as any of the other 88 t tops built. I guess it is the price paid for the open top feel. If I had to do it over I would with no question.

[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 10-20-2012).]

quote Originally posted by hyperv6: If you are cutting the top you did the right thing stiffening the car. You will still lose some rigidity by this will help cut it down a lot. Most convertibles and T tops all lose some stiffness as it is just simple engineering when you cut away support. I have seen some of the better convertibles get good support and they work well while others you an see the doors move when you hit a bump. The T tops could really use a x support on the pan. the t top car twist more than anything. Having owned and driven my car with the solid top and t top I know the differences. Also mine is as tight as any of the other 88 t tops built. I guess it is the price paid for the open top feel. If I had to do it over I would with no question.

Well, as I said, we'll find out just how much strength we added to the chassi. I can guarantee we added a lot mre steel than will be removed, Was it placed in a structurally perfiect system, we'll see. The welding was done by someone that is a good welder after I saw how poorly my efforts were turning out and the gas tank tunnel has been fully enclosed with a removable steel pan and tied into the rear cradle mounting area so, I'm thinking it'll be about as strong as is possible to make it. If it buckles then, I'll just scrap it out and put it down as a lesson learned. It's also had a 4.9 coupled to a five speed just cause that's what I wanted for this one. Different strokes for different folks ya know. My biggest concern has been deciding on how to make a cover for when it's in storage or parked on the street to protect the interior during inclement weather. I want this to be a true roadster. Obviously, there isn't anywhere to store or take along a removable hardtop so, I'm considering a canvas top that will snap onto the windscreen, over the side windows and down to the rear decklid area. Haven't made up my mind on that yet.

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Ron
We learn good judgement by exercising bad judgement. Such is the human condition, as sad as that sounds.

quote Originally posted by blackrams: Well, that brings up a question in my mind, do any 88s have this sticker on the door pillar or was that only for previous year models? Obviously, prior to 88, there was no CJB option from Pontiac. Hmm, so many things to consider.

My 88 GT CJB does have the C&C sticker in the door pillar area, right above the latch point.It's been torn a bit on the top of the sticker area, but is still very much intact.

Robert

quote Originally posted by Axdrenalin: My 88 GT CJB does have the C&C sticker in the door pillar area, right above the latch point.It's been torn a bit on the top of the sticker area, but is still very much intact. Robert

Well, that answers that. But, to be clear, your 88GT does have CJB on the RPO sticker?

I still haven't gone out to check mine for that sticker. Lots of excuses, none of them worth posting. Gonna have to get out there and check mine. (Unless one of you would care to volunteer.)

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Ron
We learn good judgement by exercising bad judgement. Such is the human condition, as sad as that sounds.

The 88 Formula I had was not a CJB coded car, but did have the C&C door jam sticker and serial number.

I would think the importance is the condition as well, and not the RPO code. Unless the guy is expecting the Fieros with CJB codes to greatly appreciate in value at some point beyond where they are currently.

If there was some major change or improvment to the CJB then there would be a greater demand and increased value but since so little was different and it really was not that much of an improvment they are all in the same conditon game.

It looks as if all C&C cars had a sticker in the door jamb factory optioned or dealer optioned alike.

quote Originally posted by hyperv6: It is not how much steel you add but where you put it. You will want to add strength front to back but note what many convertibles are doing today with an exbrace to tie the car corner to corner. Also many converters of tops put plated up and into the bottom of the fire wall on both sides to tie the cowl resting to see how what you did turns

Be assured, much thought was put into just how it should be strengthened. I'm pretty confident in what we did. I fully admit though we could get a surprise.

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 10-21-2012).]

My 88 is a CJB car, and it has the sticker. its number 95 of 1252.

Rob

My dad just bought another 88 GT t-top car. It has no CJB code on the fender tag, but the original window sticker included with the car shows the CJB option ($795). How is this possible?

quote Originally posted by brownc00: My dad just bought another 88 GT t-top car. It has no CJB code on the fender tag, but the original window sticker included with the car shows the CJB option ($795). How is this possible?

Correct me if I'm wrong but, I believe the dealership is the one that produces the window stickers and the factory produces the RPO on the fenders. But, as this and many other threads have shown, what do I know.

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Ron
We learn good judgement by exercising bad judgement. Such is the human condition, as sad as that sounds.

quote Originally posted by blackrams: Be assured, much thought was put into just how it should be strengthened. I'm pretty confident in what we did. I fully admit though we could get a surprise.

Put it on a 4 pad rack and if you can open the doors with it in the air you did well is the best test.