For short runs, the only thing that will significantly be affected by speaker wire size (within a reasonable range) is the damping factor. See the PFF thread previously cited: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum6/HTML/090611.html. You're welcome.

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 12-21-2012).]

quote Originally posted by Khw: Just curious, those underpowered setups, did the owner have his gain cranked to max? Really, if a sub handles 500 watts rms and 1000 peak, and then you hook a 500 watt rms amp up to it, is that amp going to be dumping 500 watts into the sub continuosly? Answer me that. Then provide facts to back up your answer. It will last a couple of years? Yeah, right.... I have a 350 watt RMS sub in our Mazda that's been there for a year. Before that it was in my VW for 6 years. That whole time it's run off a 150 watt RMS amp. So how does 7 years = a couple? Why has it lasted so long? Well I don't have the gain maxxed out and I don't listen to my music at a very high volume. So my sub never see's the amplifier going into fits trying to sustain peak output. That's what damages a amplifier if you under power it, the amplifier trying to sustain peak wattage output to push it. If you are listening responsibly, then your sub will continue to last like mine. I'll tell you what, check back in another 7 years and if it's blown by then I'll pull the sub apart and we can look at the voice coil.

If you want to get specific I didn't say a "couple years" I said a "few years". Which could mean 2 or more. 7 would fall in that mix. To answer your other question, no, they don't come in with the gain cranked up all the time, as I said, it's usually one of those two things. Next, within the definition of RMS you'll find the word "continuous". However you're correct you will not be getting a measured reading of 500w at all times, nor did I ever say you would. As you point out, you set the gain correctly and you don't push the system. So once again, as I stated, how you treat the system will help it. However, if you under power it, even with the gain set to something decent, and cause excessive amounts of distortion or clipping you can cause damage over time. If you want the science behind it and can give you the basics of what I know and have read. Over or under powering can cause distortion and clipping. This can cause to voice coil to heat up excessively due to the harder, "snaps" if you will, instead of the fluid motion of a full signal. This heat could cause the coil to give out before it's time. Now a lot of modern subs have made huge strides in handling the heat so a nice sub is less likely to have this problem. In fact you may NEVER have this problem, however with certain subs you might. I never meant that you will blow any and every sub by under powering it, however, over extended periods of time that can change how well that sub performs. You clearly state the same thing as me about how you treat the sub will have an effect on it. So you ask, "Why has it lasted so long?" to which I actually answered in the post you quoted me on.

If I told you I only put in half the required amount of oil in my car and always maintain it at that level what would you say? You'd tell me that is bad and I'll end up causing damage to my engine. If I don't know any better and want to be a smartass I'd say something like "I've been driving it this way for 7 years and it still works so explain that!" The mechanic might not be able to explain why the engine hasn't failed yet, but that doesn't mean that it's running perfectly.

EDIT: I just read the rest of the posts and Marvin has the same answers that I've read in my textbooks(and clearly the experience to back it) So I wasn't trying to copy off him! But it was nice to see that someone had more of the science in his answer than I could recall.

[This message has been edited by thedude557 (edited 12-21-2012).]

quote Originally posted by thedude557: If you want to get specific I didn't say a "couple years" I said a "few years". Which could mean 2 or more. 7 would fall in that mix. To answer your other question, no, they don't come in with the gain cranked up all the time, as I said, it's usually one of those two things. Next, within the definition of RMS you'll find the word "continuous". However you're correct you will not be getting a measured reading of 500w at all times, nor did I ever say you would. As you point out, you set the gain correctly and you don't push the system. So once again, as I stated, how you treat the system will help it. However, if you under power it, even with the gain set to something decent, and cause excessive amounts of distortion or clipping you can cause damage over time. If you want the science behind it and can give you the basics of what I know and have read. Over or under powering can cause distortion and clipping. This can cause to voice coil to heat up excessively due to the harder, "snaps" if you will, instead of the fluid motion of a full signal. This heat could cause the coil to give out before it's time. Now a lot of modern subs have made huge strides in handling the heat so a nice sub is less likely to have this problem. In fact you may NEVER have this problem, however with certain subs you might. I never meant that you will blow any and every sub by under powering it, however, over extended periods of time that can change how well that sub performs. You clearly state the same thing as me about how you treat the sub will have an effect on it. So you ask, "Why has it lasted so long?" to which I actually answered in the post you quoted me on. If I told you I only put in half the required amount of oil in my car and always maintain it at that level what would you say? You'd tell me that is bad and I'll end up causing damage to my engine. If I don't know any better and want to be a smartass I'd say something like "I've been driving it this way for 7 years and it still works so explain that!" The mechanic might not be able to explain why the engine hasn't failed yet, but that doesn't mean that it's running perfectly. EDIT: I just read the rest of the posts and Marvin has the same answers that I've read in my textbooks(and clearly the experience to back it) So I wasn't trying to copy off him! But it was nice to see that someone had more of the science in his answer than I could recall.

Lets look at what Marvin said.

quote Originally posted by Marvin McInnis: One point, in particular, requires repeating in the context of this discussion: "Underdriving" a speaker cannot harm it. You do this every time you turn the volume down! It's also worth noting that the average power delivered to the speakers when playing music, even at very loud listening levels, is typically quite a bit less than 10 watts. 2) Overdriving an undersized amplifier, which results in clipping. This is the detail in which the article above is incomplete, particularly with respect to low-frequency speakers like subwoofers. A clipped low-frequency signal suddenly contains a huge amount of its energy in the high-frequency end of the spectrum, energy that a sub (in particular) is incapable of efficiently coupling into the air. That energy has to go someplace, and that someplace can be either heat in the voice coil and/or internal shearing in the cone material. What to do? 1) Properly match the amplifier(s) to the speaker(s). 2) Place a properly-sized fast-acting fuse in the feed to each speaker. Sure it's a pain to have a fuse blow now and then, but would you rather buy a new speaker or amp? 3) In case of an undersized power amplifier, place a low-pass filter between the amplifier and sub. 4) If all else fails, turn the volume down.

So, typically even at a loud volume you won't be delivering more then about 10 continuos watts to your speakers.

So tell me, what's the difference if that 10 watts going to a 500 watt rms speaker is delivered from a 150 watt rms amplifier or a 500 watt rms amplifier, assuming they have the same distortion ratings?

Also we will notice next that he does not say that using a smaller amplifier is neccesarily detrimental. It is when one sets the gains or boosts in such a way that clipping occures. However if one limits the output of the amplifier to keep clipping from happening (does not max the gain or boost the hell out of the bass frequencies) then you won't have a problem. You can argue it all you want, but the fact is speakers rarely see their maximum rms or peak wattage delivered to them. Speakers are constantly underdriven. The problem is when someone sets up the amplifier so that clipping occurs.

As to the last bolded part, well yeah that's what I've been saying. Set your gain and boost properly so clipping doesn't occur (turn the volume your trying to get out of your amplifier down) and you won't have a problem.

I agree, a "matched" amplifier would be the ideal situation, but to say that underdriving kills speakers is just not true. Speakers spend most of their lives being underdriven. It is when you try to push your amplifier to do something it's not capable of that you kill the speaker. So while it is being underdriven because the amplifier is only capable of producing a sustained wattage that is less then what the speaker is rated for, it's not the lower wattage that is killing the speaker it's the clipping. So, what is clipping?

quote What is Clipping? Lets Talk About Clipping . . . This is when an amplifier has reached its maximum output capacity yet tries to keep up with the input signal gain ratio between the signal source "HU" and Amp. The amp hits an imaginary wall whereby the output signal is no longer a symetrical replication of the input signal. The wave form in, does not match the wave form out in shape or amplitude. (you can see this easily if you had a A/B channel oscilloscope; channel A connected to the amp input, channel B to amp output) The only difference you should see between channel A & B are signal amplitude values. If the signal shape varies considerably in channel B, you have a problem with clipping. So.. what's wrong with this picture? The amp tries to put out the appropriate power, but runs out of voltage from the supply rails and we get a flat spot at the upper and lower peaks of the wave form. In an extreme case, "severe clipping", there is so much additional energy buildup (heat) into the voice coil(s), but the cone does not move (motivate) enough to cool the voice coil and former adequately. Hense, the voice coil over heats and either seizes in the gap or burns the voice coil windings. RESULT: OPEN CIRCUIT and a blown speaker! OK, what happens to the speakers when they are underpowered? Under normal listening conditions... NOTHING! There is adequate signal voltage from the amplifier to motivate the speaker. This moves the speaker cone and draws/expells air to cool the voice coil adequately. No problems here... just modest output from the speaker.

So again, so long as you don't try to overdrive your underpowered amplifier, what's going to happen? That's right, NOTHING! When will something happen? When you try to make that little amplifier do what it isn't designed to do. Don't do that and you will be fine. Expect to get modest output. If you want to win a SPL contest, then DO NOT UNDERDRIVE YOUR SUB, but if all you want is normal listening, well your sub will probably never see more the 100 watts. So as long as your amplifier can deliver 100 watts of clean power you will be FINE.

As to the answer about the gains, I beleive you. However, I know from experience with freinds... They get their car out from the install shop, reach down and turn the gain all the way up. They turn that 12db of bass boost to max and then turn the bass on the headunit as high as it will go, followed by hitting the loudness button. When the woofer blows, what do they do? They turn it al back down before they bring it back to you... So yeah, I beleive you when you say they don't come to you with the gain all the way up. But it's not just the gain that can cause clipping. It's anything in the chain that boosts a set of frequencies, and let's face it people are going to tweak settings to their liking.

As to your "oil analogy", that isn't proper. An engine is completely different then an electronic circuit. How many physical moving parts are there in an amplifier? Because in your anaology, the engine would be the amplifier and the wheels the speaker. So as far as oil goes, we'd have to refine your analogy a different way. The oil, would have to equate to petrolium products used to make the engine run being compared to the electricity used to make the amp run. Kinda like at 12 volts a amp makes so much wattage, at 13.2 a little more and at 14.4 a bit more (assuming a non regulated power supply). Same would hold true for a engine, E85 produces so much power, E89 a little bit more and so on. Therefore your analogy would only work if we varried the engine size. Like say we took a 350 SBC (1000 watt rms amplifier) and put it in a Yugo (100 watt rms speaker). Is it going to work, well yeah as long as you take it easy but if you nail it things are going to break. Now take a 100 hp I4 (100 watt rms amplifier) and put it in a Ford F150 (1000 rms watt speaker). Is it going to work, yeah it's going to work, but if you try to pull a stump out of the ground with it... So that's all any of us have been saying and you want to come in here and say we are wrong. No we are not wrong. Set it up so the amplifier doesn't clip and you will be fine.

And lastly,

quote How many is a few? While few does not always mean exactly the same to everyone, generally a few is more than 2 (a couple) and a small number. A small number might mean 3 to some and another number to someone else. It might also depend on the number of total items that are being talked about. Out of a group of 50, 3 or 4 might be a few. In a group of 100,000, 100 might be considered a few.

So let's consider just how long a speaker will last in the harsh environment of a car. For instance the speakers in a Fiero. After 25 years they have rotted and most if not all will have been or will be in need of replacing. At most, I would say 30 years tops for a speaker used in a car. So, if mine has already lasted, at the least, 7 years being driven the way it is, would you consider 1/4 of it's life span to only be a few? If it is still working fine in another 7 1/2 years, would you consider almost half of it's lifetime a few? If I asked you to go to New York to do something for a few years, would you consider 18 years to be a few (1/4th of the average males life expectancy)? How about 36 years, is that still a few? No, 7+ is not a "few" when talking about a subwoofer and by no means is 15 either. Sorry, but your idea of a few is seriously skewed.

quote Originally posted by thedude557: However, if you under power it, even with the gain set to something decent, and cause excessive amounts of distortion or clipping you can cause damage over time.

I just want to reiterate this. Look at what we all have posted in this thread. Where did we disagree with you? We all have said OVER AND OVER agian, that so long as you set the gain porperly and do not drive your amplifier into clipping you will be fine. If you keep the gain set so that clipping does not occur then there WILL NOT BE A PROBLEM. Do you think it is not possible to set the gain so that clipping does not happen, or atleast does not happen at a normal listening level? Seriously?

Look the Boston Acoustic subs I have for my other car are rated 98DB at 1 watt at 1 meter. So to with the natural acoustical boost of the cars interior, I'm probably pretty close to 100 db at 1 watt at 1 meter, considering they are in a sealed enclosure. So, in order to increase the volume level of the speaker by 3 db you have to double the wattage. So at 103 I need 2 watts, 106 I need 4, 109 needs 8 watts, 112 needs 16 watts, 115 needs 32 watts, 118 I'd need 64 watts and if I ever wanted to go up to 121 I'd need 128 watts. Now I don't know about you, but at 120db+, if I looked at my passenger and said something to them they'd only see my lips move. I do not listen to music in my car that loud... So if my amplifier can deliver 100 watts of clean power, what makes you think I'm ever going to exceed that and cause clipping to occur?

The big problem is current audio tech. Subs have been given stiffer suspension and heavier cones so they can be used in smaller enclosures. This sacrifices SPL, so the 10" that used to put out 95 db in a 1.5 cubic foot enclosure now only puts out 85 db from a .75 cubic foot enclosure. This means they need more power to make the SPL that older subs made. In such a case, underdriving a sub into clipping is much harder to keep from doing as you need more power to produce the same volume level a older sub made with less power. You can still get subs that require the larger boxes and put out a higher db with less power, but for some reason as cars have grown more roomy since the mid 80's to mid 90's, people want subwoofers that take up less room. Personally, I'd rather a larger subwoofer enclosure and smaller power draw over a smaller enclosure and a larger power draw.

Anywho, I agree underdriving can cause damage if you set it up so that clipping occurs, but if you set it up so that it doesn't then it won't. If that means we have to agree to disagree that's fine. I was alot more "into" car audio back in the 80's and 90's so I'm more familiar with older tech and really don't like current tech as far as the trends for subwoofers.

[This message has been edited by Khw (edited 12-22-2012).]

Didn't read all that, but the parts I pulled out were what I was trying to point out in my post...that we were saying the same thing. You originally quoted me with "opposing" views, when in fact we were saying the same thing just in a different way. I won't argue the semantics of what a "few" is, when I used that word your 7 year thing hadn't come up. I simply meant that it will last a few years, with no specific year given, I'll try to be more exact next time to avoid confusion. As far as my analogy, it wasn't mean to be a literal comparison, more about how someone who doesn't know what they are doing or saying might react in that situation. It seems that we don't actually have opposing views, we're just arguing "If you under power your sub and push the system it can cause damage!" - "NO! If you under power the sub and don't set it right you'll cause damage!" Which was why I replied the way I did, you challenged what I said by rephrasing and giving your life experience of what I said you should do if under powering a sub... I was actually more confused than anything. Other than that I won't post again on this topic, I don't want my brain to melt.

[This message has been edited by thedude557 (edited 12-22-2012).]

quote Originally posted by thedude557: Didn't read all that, but the parts I pulled out were what I was trying to point out in my post...that we were saying the same thing. You originally quoted me with "opposing" views, when in fact we were saying the same thing just in a different way. I won't argue the semantics of what a "few" is, when I used that word your 7 year thing hadn't come up. I simply meant that it will last a few years, with no specific year given, I'll try to be more exact next time to avoid confusion. As far as my analogy, it wasn't mean to be a literal comparison, more about how someone who doesn't know what they are doing or saying might react in that situation. It seems that we don't actually have opposing views, we're just arguing "If you under power your sub and push the system it can cause damage!" - "NO! If you under power the sub and don't set it right you'll cause damage!" Which was why I replied the way I did, you challenged what I said by rephrasing and giving your life experience of what I said you should do if under powering a sub... I was actually more confused than anything. Other than that I won't post again on this topic, I don't want my brain to melt.

Actually maybe I was confused also. The way you started your post was something along the lines of "I don't know what these people in this thread are telling you but it's wrong, they don't know as much as they think they do", paraphrasing of course. That's what got my response. We all were saying, if you use a smaller amplifier but keep the gain and boosts turned down so you don't drive it into clipping you will be fine. I agree completely with you, if you use a underpowered amp and you push it into clipping you most definately will break something if your doing it frequently or for periods of time exceeding more then like 30 seconds. So yeah, we probably were just argueing the different ends, the abused set to high end versus the conservative set low enough not to cause damage end. If I did over react, which I might have (lord knows it wouldn't be the first time), then please except my apology.

We'll just chalk it up to post-apocalypse stress syndrome.

quote Originally posted by thedude557: We'll just chalk it up to post-apocalypse stress syndrome.

Hey that can be the new Buzz Term, PASS or PASD Something everyone on the planet can go to their doctor and claim they need drugs for. LOL.


Ok, and I am almost scared to ask this. However, everyone says Testing Tuning, more Tuning and More Testing and Tuning.

Is there a preferred way to tune. Should I
A. Tune the stereo with the type of music I listen to most. (80's Pop, 70-80's Rock, and yes Gasp County.)
or
B. Find a few Bass Tuning CD's in WAV format and tune with that.

There are very few really bass heavy songs I listen to, but some that come to mind, Baby Got Back from Sir Mix A-A lot, a few old School EZ-E tracks, like Nobody Move, Nobody get Hurt. Then one that I really love but can't remember the song title it was on the Pump up the Volume sound track. My favorite MP3 CD that's in the car has AC/DC, Footloose, Sir Mix A Lot and Beach Boys on it. Beach Boys Little Deuce Coupe and 409 are my two best Summer Time Roll down the Windows and Plant the foot to the floor songs.

I don't have a DB meter, but might be able to borrow one.

Honestly this stereo system at 1/2 volume is going to be louder than I will ever need. I might crank it up a few times just to SEE how loud it will go, probably with ear plugs and ear muffs over my ears.

So from what I have read, put it all in, set the gain to about half, set the bass and treble at either Zero or middle, and start turning everything up til the sub farts, (clips) then take the gain back a bit and call it good. This amp has a remote level adjuster that I plan to put under the drivers side dash as well.

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857GT Part 85GT Part 87GT Part Caddy, 93 Eldorado 4.9, 5spd Dual O2 Custom Chip, Custom Exhaust. MSD Everything Now with Nitrous. Capt Fiero --- My Over View Cadero Pics Yellow 88GT 5spd Full Poly Suspension, Lowered 1/2" in front, Corner Carver.

quote Originally posted by Capt Fiero: Then one that I really love but can't remember the song title it was on the Pump up the Volume sound track.

I have that CD.

1."Everybody Knows" (Leonard Cohen) – Concrete Blonde
2."Why Can't I Fall in Love?" – Ivan Neville
3."Stand" – Liquid Jesus
4."Wave of Mutilation (UK Surf)" – Pixies
5."I've Got a Miniature Secret Camera" – Peter Murphy
6."Kick Out the Jams" (MC5) – Bad Brains with Henry Rollins
7."Freedom of Speech" – Above the Law
8."Heretic" – Soundgarden
9."Titanium Exposé" – Sonic Youth
10."Me and the Devil Blues" (Robert Johnson) – Cowboy Junkies
11."Tale O' The Twister" – Chagall Guevara

Which song?

Wave of Mutilation and Why Can't I Fall in Love are 2 of my favorites from that album although I like many of the other songs to, like Kick Out the Jams. Everybody Knows is also a good song, although I prefer the Leonard Cohen version used in the film the most. The Concrete Blonde version of the song wasn't used until HHHs last broadcast. I was dissappointed that they omitted the Beastie Boys song .


NSFW

Not that it was all that great a song, but it just seems wrong that it wasn't included.

[This message has been edited by Khw (edited 12-22-2012).]

I used to tune via a meter. You'd have a test tone CD and set it to 60hz, turn the volume up about 3/4 of the way, and adjust the gain until the meter read such and such AC volts. This was a decent method that usually had good results. You could of course get an O-scope and use that to make sure you're not clipping and such. Or you can just adjust it by ear to what sounds good to you. A few good steps though that will help if you don't have a meter or O-scope and just want to tune by ear are:

Start with setting the crossover. Set that to something within the operating standards of the sub. And only do it in one spot. Meaning don't tune the EQ at the radio, then tune the amp. Pick one(usually the amp) and tune from there while leaving the settings on the radio flat(or at least flat as far as the sub is concerned)

Have the gain and any bass boost settings set to minimum before you start. Just like tuning with the meter turn the volume up to about 3/4 of the way to max volume(or if you don't think you'll ever go that high then something just below the max level you would usually listen at). Start playing a song in the genre that you usually listen to, or something with some good bass. Start moving the gain up slowly, stopping to get in the driver seat every so often to give a good listen and see if you like it. Keep doing this with each little turn of the gain until you get something that sounds good to you. By good I don't mean "it bumps", I mean, it sounds clean. If you feel like you need more bass then you can tweak with the bass boost, however if you find yourself going over the halfway mark on either gain or bass boost I'd stop and double check. Usually having to go that high on most radios means the preamp voltage isn't very good and the amp is trying harder than it needs to.

Now, real quick, to explain why you wouldn't crank the system to full volume when tuning a system. In this modern age we listen to music that has been recorded, copied, transferred, compressed, decompressed, edited, enhanced, etc etc, the list goes on. This means that getting a good signal isn't always going to happen with everything you have on your iPod or whatnot. Ever have one song be super loud, and another normal volume. That's why you want to have some headroom to be able to get that little bit extra you might need out of a signal that isn't as good as another.

quote Originally posted by Khw: I have that CD. 1."Everybody Knows" (Leonard Cohen) – Concrete Blonde 2."Why Can't I Fall in Love?" – Ivan Neville 3."Stand" – Liquid Jesus 4."Wave of Mutilation (UK Surf)" – Pixies 5."I've Got a Miniature Secret Camera" – Peter Murphy 6."Kick Out the Jams" (MC5) – Bad Brains with Henry Rollins 7."Freedom of Speech" – Above the Law 8."Heretic" – Soundgarden 9."Titanium Exposé" – Sonic Youth 10."Me and the Devil Blues" (Robert Johnson) – Cowboy Junkies 11."Tale O' The Twister" – Chagall Guevara Which song? Wave of Mutilation and Why Can't I Fall in Love are 2 of my favorites from that album although I like many of the other songs to, like Kick Out the Jams. Everybody Knows is also a good song, although I prefer the Leonard Cohen version used in the film the most. The Concrete Blonde version of the song wasn't used until HHHs last broadcast. I was dissappointed that they omitted the Beastie Boys song . NSFW Not that it was all that great a song, but it just seems wrong that it wasn't included.

Hmm it wasn't on that soundtrack, and for the life of me I could not remember the song, until tonight while on the way to the mall, it just sorta popped into my head. It was Beastie Boys, Brass Monkey

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857GT Part 85GT Part 87GT Part Caddy, 93 Eldorado 4.9, 5spd Dual O2 Custom Chip, Custom Exhaust. MSD Everything Now with Nitrous. Capt Fiero --- My Over View Cadero Pics Yellow 88GT 5spd Full Poly Suspension, Lowered 1/2" in front, Corner Carver.

quote Originally posted by Capt Fiero: If I need I have my 3 other spare amps that I can toss into the mix to power the dash and pillar speakers if the sub is too overpowering.

If the sub is overpowering, adjust the gain lower to balance with the rest of the system. Much simpler fix.

WooHoo, we we got home from some shopping I had a nice package waiting for me.

I was suprised with all the extra stuff that it came with, like the data link cable, the mounting hardware and the bass control knob for under the dash. Also this sucker is HEAVY, which actully made me feel better about it. The Subsonic filter is something I am going to have to read up on. So far I have my sub, head unit and amp, just no box or car to put it in. Am still waiting for the car to be done from the shop.

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857GT Part 85GT Part 87GT Part Caddy, 93 Eldorado 4.9, 5spd Dual O2 Custom Chip, Custom Exhaust. MSD Everything Now with Nitrous. Capt Fiero --- My Over View Cadero Pics Yellow 88GT 5spd Full Poly Suspension, Lowered 1/2" in front, Corner Carver.

The subsonic filter is just to "tune" out wasted energy. Most humans can't actually hear lower frequency's, say, 30hz or below depending on your hearing. You might still feel the sub working at that level, and you'll see it move but you're not actually hearing anything. The idea of the subsonic filter is to be a crossover on the front end and prevent the sub from reproducing a lower frequency and thus potentially helping it reproduce the stuff you can hear since it's not working as hard to get those really low notes. Usually a 20hz setting is fine for those.

quote Originally posted by Capt Fiero: Thank You. I kinda knew about the issues with compression and such, and that if I really wanted good quality I would have to have audio ripped from the original CD in WAV format,

This is a huge misunderstanding of how compression works, both in recording, and with regards to MP3 and other "lossy" audio codecs. Storing the audio in WAV is simply a waste of storage space, and doesn't gain you any real benefit. If you really think you must store your songs in a lossless format, at least do it using FLAC.

The classic problems with MP3 were mostly because everyone used to encode to 96 kbps or lower, due to the prevalence of dial-up access to the Internet, and the slower computers of the late 90s and early 2000s. Now, everyone rips with variable bit rates targeted at 256 or 320 kbps, because broadband has overtaken dial-up, and digital music stores are the norm. So the probability of getting the classic "tinny" results that people often complain about, is very, very small.

Most of the issues you're going to find in the realm of quality, with modern CDs, is going to be due to the loudness wars, and poor mastering techniques, where studios will crank the volume of the whole track up, get a lot of clipping, then heavily compress the music, to get rid of the clipping. In the case of some re-mastered album releases of late, this means that some of the more subtle parts of the songs, will simply get cut out. Heck, some of them would sound better on 8-track, than they would on a new CD.

Ok so I got the sub box here, and took some measurements. The interior airspace is well over 1 cubic foot, however when you take out the airspace from the sub. (I assume that’s what you do, rather than just quoting the air space of the box) It’s probably just about 1 cubic foot useable. I promised pics of the enclosure when I got it, so here they are.

Outside dimensions are 21 inches by 15 inches at the face and interior dimensions are 19 inches wide x 14 inches deep at the largest area, and 14 inches tall.

From the looks of it, he added wire mesh to make it stronger, it is formed to fit the exact footwell of the Fiero and sit flush even with the bottom of the dash. Leaving the passengers just enough area to cross their legs in front of it, at the same time getting a let massage when it turned on.

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857GT Part 85GT Part 87GT Part Caddy, 93 Eldorado 4.9, 5spd Dual O2 Custom Chip, Custom Exhaust. MSD Everything Now with Nitrous. Capt Fiero --- My Over View Cadero Pics Yellow 88GT 5spd Full Poly Suspension, Lowered 1/2" in front, Corner Carver.

So, that amp you got puts out 2100x1 Watts RMS at 4 ohm (which is the impedence of the subwoofer), which is more than twice the max of the sub. If you use them together, I suspect you're going to blow that subwoofer very quickly, especially in that enclosure, even with the gain turned all the way down on the amp. It's just too much power for the sub, and the enclosure is too small for what the sub needs for optimum performance.

Ya I am a bit worried that It'll blow, and if it does, well it was a great experiment. The previous owner of the box had a nice sub in it and ran it in his Fiero for while and did not have any issues, however I believe he was running about 1/2 the power that I am. If it does go Boom, and if it does not blow the amp up in the process. I'll sell the amp, and buy something a lot more reasonable for a Fiero, like another GOOD 8" sub and 500w amp. This experiment was more about me going "Ah What the Hell" lets try it.

So how long do you think it would last with the gain at full? One Good Thump? Kinda worried that I'll bust the box with a good thump. However we shall see.

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857GT Part 85GT Part 87GT Part Caddy, 93 Eldorado 4.9, 5spd Dual O2 Custom Chip, Custom Exhaust. MSD Everything Now with Nitrous. Capt Fiero --- My Over View Cadero Pics Yellow 88GT 5spd Full Poly Suspension, Lowered 1/2" in front, Corner Carver.

quote Originally posted by Capt Fiero: Ya I am a bit worried that It'll blow, and if it does, well it was a great experiment. The previous owner of the box had a nice sub in it and ran it in his Fiero for while and did not have any issues, however I believe he was running about 1/2 the power that I am. If it does go Boom, and if it does not blow the amp up in the process. I'll sell the amp, and buy something a lot more reasonable for a Fiero, like another GOOD 8" sub and 500w amp. This experiment was more about me going "Ah What the Hell" lets try it. So how long do you think it would last with the gain at full? One Good Thump? Kinda worried that I'll bust the box with a good thump. However we shall see.

At full gain with that amp, you'll probably be lucky if you get that far with it. The voice coil will fry very quickly.

Is the Gain pretty proportional to the power output of the amp. IE Full is 2300watts, 1/2 is 1150watts and 1/4 would be 675w?

If I just set the gain at 1/4 and use that as my baseline for tuning, should that be alright to start with.

There is a switch on the crossover on the amp for signal input voltage, 0.8-2.0 or 2.5-8.0v my deck is just barley on the high side at 2.5v Pre-Outs, would that be best to run at the 2.5 setting or step back to the lower voltage setting.

I have 2 competition stereo buddies from FB that are willing to help me tune once its installed. But I'd like to at least get a baseline working before I get to them.

I inspected a few other installs over the last few days and 2g is what I am going to use as power wire, 0g for ground and 12g for speaker wire. I have yet to buy the poly fill but I'll pick up the 1lb of the stuff and go from their.

Looks like my only last thing to buy is a speaker grill. As the speaker will be at the passengers foot well while driving I don't want any accident of it getting a foot put through it.

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857GT Part 85GT Part 87GT Part Caddy, 93 Eldorado 4.9, 5spd Dual O2 Custom Chip, Custom Exhaust. MSD Everything Now with Nitrous. Capt Fiero --- My Over View Cadero Pics Yellow 88GT 5spd Full Poly Suspension, Lowered 1/2" in front, Corner Carver.

quote Originally posted by Capt Fiero: Is the Gain pretty proportional to the power output of the amp. IE Full is 2300watts, 1/2 is 1150watts and 1/4 would be 675w? If I just set the gain at 1/4 and use that as my baseline for tuning, should that be alright to start with.

1) The gain controls on most audio amplifiers are logarithmic rather than linear, since doubling power does not double perceived loudness.

2) The gain control normally does not limit amplifier peak power output in any way. It just changes the ratio of input voltage to output power.

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 01-02-2013).]

Ok so the amp is installed. I installed the amp, and got no audio out at all. I tested everything and it should have worked. I gave up and left it for a few days, then I went out there today because the weather was so nice, doubled checked all my connections, tested everything with a volt meter and started moving settings around, and with one hand on the sub so I could feel for any movement from the voice coil, and then it started to gradually get louder and louder. I turned the settings down a bit and started with the tuning. I ended up getting the amp hot enough to get that “new electronics” smell as all the parts burned in. I did notice that if I have everything cranked up a lot, and the car is at idle, the volt meter does bounce around a fair bit, so I may have to invest in a cap at some point. I do have to say the bass is strong enough to give you that “frog in your throat” feeling. I am really happy with the end result. It just sucked that I had to leave it on for a while before it finally came alive.

The sub box was apparently a really tight in the previous Fiero that it was in, and being as the fact that it was only 40 degrees outside my dash didn't want to flex up enough to force the box under. So its sitting about 2" proud of the dash. I was amazed at how much excursion the sub has, I don't have a grill for the sub, and by the looks of it, I am going to have to find some really weird type of grill in order to cover it, something that has a deep face for high excursion subs.

The other problem I have is that I used washers on some of the screws holding the sub in place, and the foam surround is moving out far enough that it is rubbing the washers. I'll have to swap to something else.

However all in all, it sounds decent, not nearly as earth shattering as I was expecting, I think I need to track down an air leak in the enclosure and add that poly fill I was planning to put inside.

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857GT Part 85GT Part 87GT Part Caddy, 93 Eldorado 4.9, 5spd Dual O2 Custom Chip, Custom Exhaust. MSD Everything Now with Nitrous. Capt Fiero --- My Over View Cadero Pics Yellow 88GT 5spd Full Poly Suspension, Lowered 1/2" in front, Corner Carver.

Well I promised some rough install shots. The box needs to go in another inch, but I am damn near going to need a porta power to push it in. I also need to replace the temporary 7mm screws that I used with some nice black screws as well as put some sort of grill over it.

I also got my new monster tach installed yesterday.

Too bad these parts are only temporary as all of it will be moved into my V8 when its done.








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857GT Part 85GT Part 87GT Part Caddy, 93 Eldorado 4.9, 5spd Dual O2 Custom Chip, Custom Exhaust. MSD Everything Now with Nitrous. Capt Fiero --- My Over View Cadero Pics Yellow 88GT 5spd Full Poly Suspension, Lowered 1/2" in front, Corner Carver.

[This message has been edited by Capt Fiero (edited 01-27-2013).]

Well I never thought I would really say this BUT its too much. To get the bass sound I want from it, I have to have it so loud that I need to wear ear plugs. Honestly and I am not sure why, but I was playing around with the system at max volume, (head unit was at max) None of the speakers distorted which was pretty cool, but it sounded better with my fingers in my ears when at that volume. Don't get me wrong, or misunderstand what I am trying to say, even with my fingers in my ears I could hear it clear as day and frankly I preferred the sound with my fingers in my ears vs the ear bleeding, nausea inducing, sound that I was getting from it. I imagine with hours of pro stereo or experimentation I could get it to "sound" the way I want with the mids and highs right and the correct level of bass response, but it would not help the 2nd issue, the complete lack of space now in the passenger seat. When I am traveling alone its sorta OK I don't mind having my extra luggage on the passenger seat vs on the floorboard, but yesterday I had to take my 3 year old daughter in the car, so her car seat was on the passenger seat. She loved the bass, but trying to have McDonald's, plus, miss kid munchies, and her jacket, and all my related electronics for my phone charger, gps charger, radar detector, 12v-110v Converter all stuffed in the space between the seat and the speaker, then having her kicking and playing with the wires when she got fussy it was all just too much.

I am going to keep the amp but selling the sub and enclosure locally. I am sure someone in the club will want it. I'll basically sell it to them for the cost of buying and shipping of the sub and include the enclosure for free.

LOL, Oh and I did have an Ooopsie. When I installed the sub, I ran just enough wire to get from the sub through the enclosure and connect to the amp. However when I needed to pull the box back in Oregon so I could fill the box with poly and install a "face" on the box to deal with an air leak issue, instead of un-hooking the wires from the amp, I cut them and then just twist tied them back together. Well I was in a hurry and did not tape them off, I just twisted them in a way that they should not have been able to touch. Well ....... They Did Touch, and MAN O MAN the sparks that, that amp can throw off, makes an Arc Welder look dim. I have dead shorted car battery's and not seen that kind of light show.

The amp went directly into protection and seems to be un-harmed from the event, but it scared the heck out of me.

I am going to install some sort of quick disconnect on it when I install a smaller 8" sub that fits better under the dash.

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857GT Part 85GT Part 87GT Part Caddy, 93 Eldorado 4.9, 5spd Dual O2 Custom Chip, Custom Exhaust. MSD Everything Now with Nitrous. Capt Fiero --- My Over View Cadero Pics Yellow 88GT 5spd Full Poly Suspension, Lowered 1/2" in front, Corner Carver.

quote Originally posted by Capt Fiero: From the looks of it, he added wire mesh to make it stronger, it is formed to fit the exact footwell of the Fiero and sit flush even with the bottom of the dash. Leaving the passengers just enough area to cross their legs in front of it, at the same time getting a let massage when it turned on.

I am betting he used "chicken wire" to make the form.

quote Originally posted by dobey: So, that amp you got puts out 2100x1 Watts RMS at 4 ohm (which is the impedence of the subwoofer), which is more than twice the max of the sub. If you use them together, I suspect you're going to blow that subwoofer very quickly, especially in that enclosure, even with the gain turned all the way down on the amp. It's just too much power for the sub, and the enclosure is too small for what the sub needs for optimum performance.

+

quote Originally posted by Capt Fiero: Ya I am a bit worried that It'll blow, and if it does, well it was a great experiment. The previous owner of the box had a nice sub in it and ran it in his Fiero for while and did not have any issues, however I believe he was running about 1/2 the power that I am. If it does go Boom, and if it does not blow the amp up in the process. I'll sell the amp, and buy something a lot more reasonable for a Fiero, like another GOOD 8" sub and 500w amp. This experiment was more about me going "Ah What the Hell" lets try it. So how long do you think it would last with the gain at full? One Good Thump? Kinda worried that I'll bust the box with a good thump. However we shall see.

Not to dog your equipment, but I am betting there is a lot of creative calculating going on with that Boss brand amp. There is a reason they sell a 2100 watt amp for less than $150 when a comparable Rockford Fosgate is $1600. Even if you factor in Crutfield not being the cheapest around, you often times do get what you pay for.


On a completely unrelated note. You have a VERY busy interior. Is all that crap needed? You ever feel claustrophobic in there?

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No one laughs.

[This message has been edited by ls3mach (edited 03-20-2013).]

quote Originally posted by ls3mach: Not to dog your equipment, but I am betting there is a lot of creative calculating going on with that Boss brand amp. There is a reason they sell a 2100 watt amp for less than $150 when a comparable Rockford Fosgate is $1600. Even if you factor in Crutfield not being the cheapest around, you often times do get what you pay for. On a completely unrelated note. You have a VERY busy interior. Is all that crap needed? You ever feel claustrophobic in there?

We did some math at a stereo shop and came up the amp is peak 4500w, but in reality its more like 1500w RMS. Which I am fine with. I knew going in they over rate their amps, which is one of the reasons I bought BIG.

As to all the stuff in the interior, yes for me it is needed, and frankly only about 1/2 the stuff was installed at the time of that photo. I also have a radar detector that goes on the dash as well as my 6" tablet phone.

I have put nearly 50,000 miles on my 88GT in the last couple years driving between Oregon and British Columbia. I use the tablet phone with Google Maps in Satellite view to show exact street and parking lot information as well as live traffic. I use the TomTom as a digital speedo so I am not converting MPH into KPH and back all the time. I also use it for quick Point of Interest locations like fuel locations and food stops. I also use the Tom Tom for ETA calculations at a glance. I am an information junkie when it comes to traveling, I like to know exactly how long it will take, how much traffic is in the way, how fast I am going and all that stuff. My TomTom also has a traffic receiver which can recalculate my ETA in real time and even re-route me around traffic jams.

I could not live without my new tach, I have gotten used to almost driving by rpm instead of speed. I know that 3000 rpms is roughly 84mph and that's what I spend most of my freeway time cruising at. My narrow band Air/Fuel gauge is also a must have. If I see it sitting in the red too long or the green too long I know that I need to play with the fuel pressure a bit, or check for ignition problems.

When you sped as much time as I do in a Fiero on the highway for hours on end, having gauges and toys to play with come in handy and relaxing. Oh Side Note, my phone connects to my stereo via Bluetooth so my phone displays track information and station information on the big 6" display when not using Google, and transmits calls to the stereo so even if I am driving at 90mph with the windows down, I can just turn the stereo up a bit and hear my calls just fine. The Mic for the stereo is in the headliner near the dome light so its protected from wind noise fairly well too.

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857GT Part 85GT Part 87GT Part Caddy, 93 Eldorado 4.9, 5spd Dual O2 Custom Chip, Custom Exhaust. MSD Everything Now with Nitrous. Capt Fiero --- My Over View Cadero Pics Yellow 88GT 5spd Full Poly Suspension, Lowered 1/2" in front, Corner Carver.

quote Originally posted by Capt Fiero: We did some math at a stereo shop and came up the amp is peak 4500w, but in reality its more like 1500w RMS. Which I am fine with. I knew going in they over rate their amps, which is one of the reasons I bought BIG. As to all the stuff in the interior, yes for me it is needed, and frankly only about 1/2 the stuff was installed at the time of that photo. I also have a radar detector that goes on the dash as well as my 6" tablet phone. I have put nearly 50,000 miles on my 88GT in the last couple years driving between Oregon and British Columbia. I use the tablet phone with Google Maps in Satellite view to show exact street and parking lot information as well as live traffic. I use the TomTom as a digital speedo so I am not converting MPH into KPH and back all the time. I also use it for quick Point of Interest locations like fuel locations and food stops. I also use the Tom Tom for ETA calculations at a glance. I am an information junkie when it comes to traveling, I like to know exactly how long it will take, how much traffic is in the way, how fast I am going and all that stuff. My TomTom also has a traffic receiver which can recalculate my ETA in real time and even re-route me around traffic jams. I could not live without my new tach, I have gotten used to almost driving by rpm instead of speed. I know that 3000 rpms is roughly 84mph and that's what I spend most of my freeway time cruising at. My narrow band Air/Fuel gauge is also a must have. If I see it sitting in the red too long or the green too long I know that I need to play with the fuel pressure a bit, or check for ignition problems. When you sped as much time as I do in a Fiero on the highway for hours on end, having gauges and toys to play with come in handy and relaxing. Oh Side Note, my phone connects to my stereo via Bluetooth so my phone displays track information and station information on the big 6" display when not using Google, and transmits calls to the stereo so even if I am driving at 90mph with the windows down, I can just turn the stereo up a bit and hear my calls just fine. The Mic for the stereo is in the headliner near the dome light so its protected from wind noise fairly well too.

I'm not going to get in a "driving pissing match". I don't drive OTR or anything, but I spend at least 25,000 miles a year in a vehicle. My F250 has a bluetooth radio (I have for YEARS), I find it convenient. I use my phone for almost all the stuff you just mentioned. Only a 5.5" screen, I'd say close enough. Regarding using the tachometer for speed, is there no cruise on your car?

Also, my in-dash (in my Fiero) unit does virtually all of that too. MPH/KPH. GPS. It doesn't bluetooth (it came with the car and is getting removed anyway) though it does have line in. You obviously are free to drive however you want, but I personally want more information in a single location so that I am less distracted when driving. Of course my truck alone is 8000lbs then add a trailer or any kind of load and my required reaction time is greatly diminished.

Sucks that wasn't what you wanted though with the sub setup.

I agree no reason to argue as it is driver preference. I did have a pretty much all in one GPS but 1/2 of the data I wanted was on one screen and I was constantly flipping back and forth. It also had a Bluetooth speaker phone in the GPS, but it was not loud enough. About the only thing I can't integrate into one unit is the Radar Detector.

Now as to cruise, I really wish it worked. I do have it, but it has never worked. On my trips up and down I-5 the cruise it not as crucial as there is so much traffic and I am usually bouncing around lanes speeding up and slowing down. The only time I really really wanted it, was when I did our Honey Moon Loops. Washington, Oregon, California, Nevada, Utah and a few states I can't remember then finally back up to Washington for the Fiero Fest. There were some really long boring stretches that I was half tempted to use a broom handle on the gas pedal. (and if I would have had one I might have done it) LOL.

Now as to weight 8000lbs WOW. Most I have ever done with the Fiero was 850lbs Cargo in the car (not including driver or passenger) and 1500lbs of Tools and Trailer towed behind the car. Which at most came to a total of car/trailer combo of 5400lbs.

In the end its all about driver preference and no reason to argue what so ever.

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857GT Part 85GT Part 87GT Part Caddy, 93 Eldorado 4.9, 5spd Dual O2 Custom Chip, Custom Exhaust. MSD Everything Now with Nitrous. Capt Fiero --- My Over View Cadero Pics Yellow 88GT 5spd Full Poly Suspension, Lowered 1/2" in front, Corner Carver.

I'm sorry, I think I've given the wrong impression. I would never tow anything with my Fiero. My truck weighs 4 tons.Not to mention any load weight or gooseneck.

I believe everyone is very wrong here. This is the setup you need.

While in the Matrix the other day I found Mr. Smith had come back as a Car Audio Shop owner. He hooked me up with a Human BTU energy pod that had been modified to accept New York city sewer rats as the power source of the pod. Installed it in the front compartment, had to remove the spare tire unfortunately. I really wanted the human version, but we couldn't get it to fit in the area. Dang Fieros and lack of space.
Ran power from it with his patented ac/dc wireless transmitter and receiver to avoid a wire for power and all, its also self grounding. He ran 8 gauge wires from amp to a 10 in a very slim box behind the pass seat. That saved me money as I didn't really need the wireless adapter for amp to sub. Thats just a waste of money really.
Bumps well good! Even got an in Matrix soundtrack cd as a bonus. I just wished he would have stopped calling me Mr. all the time. Made me feel like my dad.

I never even asked about under powering vs overpowering. I trust his professional install and was not looking for opinion that would get me to buy a higher power amp to make sure I don't underpower my sub. Reason for that is simple, ask an installer if this $300 amp is ok for your 1100 watt sub and he will say NO, you don't want to underpower it and damage it. You need this amp that falls within specs of sub to not underpower it..... Its only $400 more.

Minus all the silly stuff, is everyone seeing my point????? I was curious of this underpower MYTH and went to THE audio shop in my area and asked my uncle who owns it, he has been doing car audio since God was a boy. Opened with the humor above to not ruffle anyones feathers on the opinion of overpower/underpower.
Underpower warnings are strictly based on the performance quality of a sub and not possibility of damage. Damage is from overpowering as others have described earlier in this topic.
its really that simple. Its called UP-Selling.

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Put the blow torch down please, its just a Fiero.