quote Originally posted by dobey: Just because mechanics are mechanically inclined doesn't mean they don't get tripped up every once in a while. There are also plenty of kids who buy "JDM" engines off eBay to swap into their Civics, and have no idea what they're doing or asking to have done, that just drop them off at mechanics who don't really know what to do either. A lot of mechanics just get burned out with people asking to do engine swaps that aren't direct replacements. Not to mention the lack of knowledge in general about Fieros in standard mechanic shops around the country. Maybe they could do the swap and get it running, and maybe it'll have crushed coolant tubes when it's done, too. .

Last year a local kid picked up an 88 GT and wanted to do a V8 swap. He found a shop that would sell him a iron block 350 for $400 and told him for another $450 bucks they would install it in his car. I begged him not to do it. I gave him the Pennocks link and told him to spend some time over the next week reading about engine swaps. About two weeks later I spoke with him and he was now going to do a SC3800 swap. In the end he changed his mind and went back to the shop and dropped off his GT for them to do the V8 swap. Its been about 6 months now and everytime I drive by the shop I see his Yellow 88GT sitting in the same spot. No work done at all.

Well I tried.

Rob.

I'm just throwing this out there....If Loyde's shop is truly going to a new owner, I would hope that someone on here will contact the new owner and they will help out correcting all of the issues that Loyde created. Hopefully this all works out for the best in the end.

quote Originally posted by IMSA GT: I'm just throwing this out there....If Loyde's shop is truly going to a new owner, I would hope that someone on here will contact the new owner and they will help out correcting all of the issues that Loyde created. Hopefully this all works out for the best in the end.

His shop was in his backyard....LOL

So did he move?

I'm willing to bet if anything did indeed change hands, it was the domain not the physical shop.

It's too bad that fuel pumps are too expensive and too difficult to change on fieros. Just when you think there is hope an unmanageable hurdle appears.

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Turbo 3800 E85 F23 5spd spec5
11.17@132.6

quote Originally posted by Justinbart: It's too bad that fuel pumps are too expensive and too difficult to change on fieros. Just when you think there is hope an unmanageable hurdle appears.

WTH...

quote Originally posted by Justinbart: It's too bad that fuel pumps are too expensive and too difficult to change on fieros. Just when you think there is hope an unmanageable hurdle appears.

quote Originally posted by nosrac: WTH...

Pretty sure that was supposed to be a dig at me. What Jingles the clown there doesn't realize is that it means absolutely nothing coming from someone who doesn't own a business or have a family. We're not all young kids with a ton of spare time.

Yeah, Ryan and I today alone made 60 flat rate hours in a 12 hour day...plus we had time to install the intercooler on the tdi swap.

Dave

Give The Fiero Facory a call in Toney, Alabama at 256-420-5391. Ask for Jeremy.

Rumor has it that Loyde Roscoe changed his name to Ned Sparks Jr and started the business up again. His new partners are Dean Cain and the guy known here as "Friend of Yours". They have come together to form two new companies Honest Fieros and Friendly Fieros of Dallas. Their motto is "just give us your money and don't bother to ask questions"

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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

That should have been funny..........

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: Rumor has it that Loyde Roscoe changed his name to Ned Sparks Jr and started the business up again. His new partners are Dean Cain and the guy known here as "Friend of Yours". They have come together to form two new companies Honest Fieros and Friendly Fieros of Dallas. Their motto is "just give us your money and don't bother to ask questions"

Too funny!

quote Originally posted by bmwguru: Not to derail this thread, but your fuel pump was fine on 14psi. On 16.5psi, it started to give up, but it never got anywhere near dangerous. You won't need to adjust your tune when changing the pump. When you come up to test drive your car, I will show you some basics on the HP Tuners to adjust your tune for the temperature difference. I'll load my configuration setup for your car on your laptop so you can datalog and make sure it is right (I ran the wideband through the EGR 0-5v for datalogging). As for Loyde, he is a real piece of crap. He ripped off my tech years ago, but in turn that was how I met Ryan. He came to me for a harness that Loyde never completed and I liked his fabrication skills. If he is saying he is back in business, then he is going to rip more people off. I'd say 75% of my swaps I completed were people not on this forum. Anyone who is none the wiser and has Google will be a potential victim. He needs to be stopped. Dave

Loyde is also the reason I came to know Dave. Loyde took over $8500 from me back in 2004 for parts he bought for a car I wanted to build. I had to put the project on hold and when I contacted him again in 2007 he had sold the parts because he "needed the money". Stupid me gave him the benefit of the doubt and was willing to give him a second chance with my daily driver. He promised me the swap would be done in no more than 3 months. That was in July of 2007 when I sent him my car. I got nothing but b/s excuses from him for 3 years about my car being "next". I had to go out to his house in December of 2010 with the Collin County Sheriff's Office and retrieve my car from being one of his many Fiero lawn decorations. Before I went down there I found Dave on the forum and saw he was right there in NJ. Dave took possession of my car in January of 2011 and accomplished in 1 week was Loyde couldn't or wouldn't do in 3 1/2 years. If you're serious about a 3800 swap or anything concerning a 3800...there's a reason Dave is "THE GURU". Feel free to PM me for more details about Loyde.

Charles

quote Originally posted by nosrac: Again this is NOT rocket science with ALL the correct pre-made swap parts and a swap guide (PFF)a 16 year old kid in his dad's garage can do it. (has done it...LOL)

is doing it!

[This message has been edited by Flux (edited 02-25-2013).]

This thread is full of cool assed MFs that I have much respect for, talking about a crook that needs to be talked about to warn others. I love this place.

quote Originally posted by Flux: is doing it!

Told ya !

Be sure to start a build thread, post pics, and ask questions if you need help!

I have a thread going, I will update it when I get my wiring harness from fieroflyer

quote Originally posted by bmwguru: Yeah, Ryan and I today alone made 60 flat rate hours in a 12 hour day...plus we had time to install the intercooler on the tdi swap. Dave

I am so impressed with you taking advantage of your customers.

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Turbo 3800 E85 F23 5spd spec5
11.17@132.6

It is called being a flat rate technician. Most guys that fail in this field can't make their 40 hours in a week. The guys making over $100,000 a year can triple their time because they are fast, smart and don't get comebacks. I'm sorry you think that someone proficient in their job should be paid the same as someone who isn't as good.
I've worked myself to the point of exhaustion many times each year, even back in the day of working for dealerships, but i'm willing to push myself for the paycheck.
If a job pays 6 hours, most guys can't do it in less than that...the best techs in the shops know they can easily do that job in 2 hours without taking shortcuts. I know exactly what tools I need for each job. I can look at any size bolt and know what size it is.

quote Originally posted by Justinbart: I am so impressed with you taking advantage of your customers.

It is difficult for some to understand. One day you will too.

Is this like where you take your car to a licensed shop some where for example a dealer or big name garage. Drop your car off for the day and they do the job in 2 hours but that nasty book that was supposed to protect people from being charged massive hours of labour on small jobs says it takes 6 hours the garage then charges you 6 hours labour even though they only did 2 hours work because either every thing went perfectly or no bolts were seized or nothing was rusty, you know the things that can make it a 6 hour job when not every thing goes perfectly as the book allows for.
A really good mechanic that can do things in a lot less time then a lesser mechanic or apprentice for example is a good thing to have if he is honest and actually charges the amount of labour done and not over charge.
Some one please explain to me how it is even legal to charge some one as above 6 hours labour when the person only worked on the car for 2 hours isn't that fraud or even theft. For that matter how do you record on the business books that one man some how does more hours work for the day then there is in a day to start with.
Sorry not trying to start any thing or accuse any one of any thing but this is the reason I started working on my own cars years ago. Dan

quote Originally posted by FIEROFLYER: ... Dan

Basically, sure, you get a few cars where the owner took great care of them, or everything goes as planned, but all too often the mechanic gets a car with broken bolts, rust, or unforseen damage that makes it a 12 hour job. Or, the mechanic that would rather drink, and not work as hard as the next guy. Something like that.

It does make sense. Hard to put into perspective, but how many times did, let's say a V6 alternator, take much longer than the two bolts tell?

For the record, I prefer to do things myself. Both due to money, and to satisfaction.

The flat rate system weeds out the techs who can't cut it, and protects the customers from getting billed 8 hours labor to do a 2 hour job, just because the tech works too slow or spent all day trying to figure out something he should have looked up to cut down on time. Would you want to pay the guy who does 3 jobs in 1 week the same as the guy who did 28? It can also REALLY bite you in the ass in the rust belt.

This explains it pretty well:



I actually have a labor guide that covers all five years of the Fiero, the times can be interesting.

I fully agree there are some jobs that take way longer as well for example dropping a Fiero cradle with no rust or seized bolts it is very fast and easy if not it can drag out to hours possibly the entire day or more.
I get that especially on older cars that have been around for a long time with a lot of miles on them but what about the newer cars with next to no rust that are are in near mint shape with no seized bolts is it ok to over charge on them to make up for the odd job that does take longer.
What were the numbers 60 hours work billed in 12 hours of actual time I would say that more then makes up for a few uncooperative jobs that drag out.
Again not trying to piss any one off here it just does not make sense to me. Dan

The flat rate is the fairest pricing system as it gives consistency on a specific job from shop to shop.Its based on one tech working so if two do the job, in theory it should take half the time but still the same man hours. In many cases the shop makes out while on others it can take a bath.

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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

The entire automotive field isn't fair, but I knew that going into it. Techs are expected to buy their own tools. A plumber can fit all his tools in a 5 gallon pail. I have over $250,000 in my personal tool box. The price of the tool boxes is high too. I just priced out an upgrade and I'll be looking at $18,000 for just an empty tool box. The other thing that isn't fair is the fact that to be able to legally cut someone's hair, you need over 100 hours of training and a license. To be a mechanic, you need a pencil to fill out an application....kinda scary to think who is repairing your brakes.

The flat rate system is always argued about. The techs that can't cut it...or should I say "in a shop atmosphere", hate the system. A guy can be a wiz in the backyard and fix anything, but if it takes him 4 hours to change out brakes, he isn't going to make $ in a shop.

I was told that I was expected to double my time from day 1. That was very hard, but I pushed and pushed. I used to see guys just get through their day in a fog and make 30 hours a week and ***** about it. I'd say to them that they were lazy and should find a new career. Truth was they were lazy.

The best techs out there know the problem before they open the hood. They remember the symptoms from prior experiences so that they know what system to test to confirm the diagnosis. Take a BMW vent valve. The first time I did one it took me about an hour to diagnose it and 4 hours to replace it. Now we have done hundreds of them, we can confirm diagnosis in under 10 minutes and do the job in 40 minutes. I still charge the 5 hours because the book says that is what it pays. The shop down the street tried to do the same job on the shop owner's car and it took them 2 days. They also broke a few hundred dollars of stuff too. In the real world, that tech would have made 5 hours in 2 days.

It does work both ways......if I were not a tech, I'd rather pay the head tech to fix my car in half the time and get the quality over a tech that will break stuff or misdiagnose the problem causing me more time and money loss. I am good at what I do and I am fast and consistent. If I ever sold my shop and worked for someone again, I know that as a tech, I could make $30 per flat rate hour into $140,000 a year. But, I do plan to sell my shop in a few years and I don't plan to turn a wrench professionally after that.

Dave

Thanks for reminding me why I do all my own work on my cars short of rebuilding a transmission. I mean jeez what a racket..... what happened to an honest days work for an honest days pay. To me if someone were to work on my car and ran into uncommon serious problems like broken or rusted fasteners or other things first I would expect a pro to be able to overcome most of that stuff rather quickly and second if it truly is a real problem gimme a call and I can come over and see it myself as to why it is taking longer than it should. A good tech should be able to do all of this and do it at an honest pace. The wage they make should be based on their skills and knowledge not what the least common denominator makes the entire industry pander to....ridiculous.....peace

Pete

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"May the grins begin when you turn the key and hear the engine roar over your shoulder" ......Gall57 (slightly modified LOL)

Pete, So what your saying is that if I am not very good at my job, I then can charge full price? So, if the job pays me 6 hours, but I really suck and it takes me 20 hours, I then can charge 20 hours? If I decide to work with all hand tools rather than air tools I spent thousands on to slow me down, I can charge more? I just spent $300 on a battery operated zip gun for strictly interior work so that I can triple my time on removing dashboards, but if I decide to not invest in my career and use a hand screw driver, I won't be ripping someone off?

This is why the flat rate system was invented....to keep job pricing fair. There are not many techs out there that can compete with my speed. That isn't my ego talking, that is just the way it is. In my entire career, I have had shop owners approach me from my rep. My one friend hired me with the sole purpose of making the head tech at the shop he worked at look silly. Everyone is good at something.....I excel in a flat rate shop.

I have seen flat rate cause problems though. I worked with a few techs that used amphetamines to boost his work.

Here is the best way to look at this. If the flat rate says the job is worth 5 hours, expect the average tech to take 5 hours....expect the bad techs to take 8 hours and expect the good techs to do it in 2-3 hours.
Dave

That's exactly what I am saying.....if you suck at your job and something that should take six hours takes 20 then go ahead and charge for it. That way your sorry ass will be out of a job quickly as word gets around about it which is also usually pretty quick. That is not more unfair than charging someone for five hours when you worked on their car for two hours day in and day out. You whine about how much you spent on your tools, hell I just had to buy a freaking Machining center and don't get me started on all the precision tools I meed to do my work let alone my Tig welder and supplies. I accept that fact because this is the work I want to do in my life and as we all know most of it can be written off if you have half a brain. In my view if you want to call yourself a mechanic you BETTER have all those fancy air tools and test equipment hell I'm not a professional mechanic and I own tons of air Tools and test equipment. Tools of the trade are tools of the trade. Besides they are a good investment. A quality well cared for tool will always be worth good money years down the road more often than not. Honestly while I respect your skill and have to take your word on its existence you really don't know how to come off as a professional online at all....good luck in your business I am sure there are tons of fat cats in Jersey who don't know **** about cars and are fine with being overcharged with work on their BMW's....

I am sure you probably think I have a dig for you here but I honestly don't you just come across sometimes the wrong way and I am talking more about the general mechanic today not necessarily you in particular. Peace

Pete
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"May the grins begin when you turn the key and hear the engine roar over your shoulder" ......Gall57 (slightly modified LOL)

[This message has been edited by Pete Matos (edited 02-27-2013).]

I know we have gotten into it before, but honestly, I kinda like you...you don't rub me the wrong way.

I'm not taking advantage of anyone in my eyes. The job pays 5 hours as per the manufacturer, so I believe i am entitled to that 5 hours no matter how long it takes me. I did lose my shirt the first time I replaced a steering rack on an Audi A6, but I charged the book time and ate the fact it took me a full day.

As for running a business, I won't have anyone work for me that just gives the minimum. I've seen that attitude before and I won't stand for it. I work very hard to support my family and hobbies. If this field wasn't flat rate, I probably would have no interest in it because we would all be equal no matter how good we are.

I'm hoping to become a strictly diagnostic guy after i sell the shop.....the guy that travels to different shops and diagnoses the cars that are impossible to diagnose....I figure that will pay me what i need to make a living and keep me interested enough to show up for work everyday.

Dave

I will ALWAYS pay the fair and asking price for quality work. I was in the parts business for 20 years and distributed parts to over 800 “professional shops”. I’ve seen firsthand shops of equal size and staffed with equal ASE techs fail or succeed based on the ability of the staff to produce a volume of quality work. The better shops have fewer warranty issues less test fit parts returned and were able to pay the bills! The better shops have repeat customers’ BY CHOICE’ and generally end up with the entire stable of vehicles of the customer being serviced. Who are you going to send your wife or daughters car to? I think that before anyone slams anyone for what they charge ask yourself this question. Do you want to have your eye surgery done by the highest rated most sought after specialist or by a staff member of “eyes R us”. Oh, of those 800+ shops there were less than 5 that I would take my vehicle to.

Dave, I believe that your wasting your breath explaning the flat rate system to the uninitiated.

As you know, I've been a flat rate technician for a Dodge dealer for the last 15yrs, and I know exactly what your talking about. For example a water pump on an any year LH body (Concorde, Intrepid, LHS ) with a 2.7 liter, that engine is a DOHC, 3 timing chain and internal water pump engine. This job pays, as per Chilton, 8.7 hours and I can do it in 2.5. Does that make me a crook? No, it means I'm efficient at my job and can get it done fast and right. Let me see the average do it yourselfer get that done in even the normal time. I don't think they can, even with a book. I can't tell you how many jobs I have had to fix that someone else started and couldn't finish because they were in over their head.

I'm guessing based on people's misguided ideas is that my tools, experience, and talant aren't worth anything. This is one of few professions where you are employed by someone else and must provide your own tools. Dave, your the exception here, in that you own your buisness right now. But, you do have bills to pay, techs to keep employed and overhead expenses.

In my example, to do that water pump you need a special harmonic balancer puller and installer just to take the timing cover off, that tool cost me $200 out of my own pocket. Chrysler does (not my employer) provide, I should say sells the dealer some special tools, but the one they have is very inefficient and you must take many more parts off to access the balancer. This increased my efficiency quite a bit, with just this one purchase. I have many other special tools just for this reason.

How many of you have had a spark plug break off in the rear cylinder head of a Fiero only to spend hours to try and get it out. Guess wha? I have a tool just for that, how much would you have paid me to do that job to save you the aggrivation and stress you felt.....

BTW I work for a company that charges $95 a flat rate hour, how much of that money do you think I see? Basically, I work under contract for my employer, on a per job basis meaning I get paid for each vehicle I work on, if theres no cars I don't get paid. Period. How would you like to show up everyday and not get paid for being there? This is why the flat rate system works, and you have to be good and efficient at your job to make money. -Jason

[This message has been edited by Fierofreak00 (edited 02-27-2013).]

Fierofreak,
This is the last thing I am gonna say about this and I'm gonna get back to work here. You said you had to do that water pump on the car and due to your experience and the special tools you invested in you got it done in less than half the allotted time. What I am saying is that this system should REWARD good techs and they should be the ones who get paid higher wages simply due to their skills and prowess with their tools. Instead the half ass mechanic can be paid the same amount with less skills and lacking tools. People who bring their cars in for work expect that the Guy working on their car is highly skilled and will do the job as efficiently as possible thus making their bill LESS even tho they are paying more per hour for that skilled tech. Instead what happens here is they pay more anyway regardless of the skill and time factors. It does nothing to weed out those guys who should be working at Burger King instead. It kinda reminds me of the way kids today are rewarded for the most common things in school and the kids who are truly extraordinary get the same rewards most of the time. Not the same thing of course but you get the idea. The technician who does fast great work on cars should be the one making the most money and enjoying when a man brings his whole family's cars to him for work. Does that make sense??

Guru,
Appreciate your comments about me and that you understood my meaning here. Your comments about how unfair the automotive industry is as a whole speaks to that. Honestly I like the looks of your work especially that yellow car LOL....very nice. Peace

Pete

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"May the grins begin when you turn the key and hear the engine roar over your shoulder" ......Gall57 (slightly modified LOL)

I've found myself on both sides of this. It does piss me off when I pay for 6 hours of labor on a job that took them 2. I'd say it would be better to just give a flat rate and not discuss timeframes. If someone said $500 for this work I can say yes or no. If they say "Well it will take X time and per hour it's this, so it will be $500", then if it comes out to be less time it just causes confusion and hard feelings. If it was flat and time wasn't brought into it, then the confusion isn't there.

On a personal note for Justin, Dave actually lost potential income on my swap due to him sticking to his quote even though the man hours went way over. Say what you want, but there's a reason people are willing to pay him $20k+ for a swap, and no it's not because people are stupid. It's because they expect a level of quality and are willing to pay for it, and at the same time we know we'll be treated fairly.

quote Originally posted by mptighe: I've found myself on both sides of this. It does piss me off when I pay for 6 hours of labor on a job that took them 2. I'd say it would be better to just give a flat rate and not discuss timeframes. If someone said $500 for this work I can say yes or no. If they say "Well it will take X time and per hour it's this, so it will be $500", then if it comes out to be less time it just causes confusion and hard feelings. If it was flat and time wasn't brought into it, then the confusion isn't there. On a personal note for Justin, Dave actually lost potential income on my swap due to him sticking to his quote even though the man hours went way over. Say what you want, but there's a reason people are willing to pay him $20k+ for a swap, and no it's not because people are stupid. It's because they expect a level of quality and are willing to pay for it, and at the same time we know we'll be treated fairly.

I'm not a complete ass to my customers. On certain jobs, I bill what I believe to be fair. Mercedes Benz charges 4.0 hours to replace the front brakes-pads, discs, electrical sensor. I charge my customers 1.5 hours.....it still takes 20 minutes, but I don't come out and say I'm charging 1.5 hours at $100 per hour. I say the labor is $150. which is cheaper than Mercedes which is 4.0 hours at $140 per hour.

I also paid $20,000 for the laptop that enables me to do the electronic Mercedes Benz brakes, so the money to make that payment comes from somewhere. Like I said in other threads, between all my expenses, my $3M in insurance and taxes, it costs me $27,000 a month to open my doors....legally. I could do it much much cheaper illegally out of my home garage.

I do agree that the auto industry is a sham. I have seen so many techs purposely break parts of cars to generate work for themselves. I walked out on a shop that the owner wanted me to do that and when I refused, he told me to do it or get out....I left. I won't make up stuff to sell that customers don't need....there is enough that break on German cars to keep me very busy as is.....and i can sleep at night.

Dave

quote Originally posted by Pete Matos: ... It does nothing to weed out those guys who should be working at Burger King instead. ...

In reality, those guys weed themselves out.
If someone works for 40-60 hours and only brings home 30 hours of pay, week after week, they'll either get better, go broke, or choose a new career.

And Dave has said that he provides "wiggle room", and doesn't charge "book" for every job. He's good enough that he can afford to do that.
And you know what will happen? People will tell their friends. And he'll have that much more business.

This is precisely why I'm not a mechanic.
I would venture to say that (other than paint/body) there isn't much on a Fiero (or lots of other cars) that I couldn't do. Or figure out how to do. But it takes time.
I can do as good of a job as anyone, but not quickly enough, or in enough volume, to make a living doing it.
Hell... I'd be lucky to make gas money. But I know my limitations.

OTOH, if your telecommunications network throws up on its shoes, I can probably figure out why in just a few minutes.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 02-27-2013).]

quote Originally posted by Raydar: And Dave has said that he provides "wiggle room", and doesn't charge "book" for every job. He's good enough that he can afford to do that. And you know what will happen? People will tell their friends. And he'll have that much more business.

While he brags to people on the internet how he did a week and half of billed work in one day.

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Turbo 3800 E85 F23 5spd spec5
11.17@132.6

If it's done right, I'll pay "book".
Hell, my time is worth more than that, especially if it gets wasted.

quote Originally posted by Justinbart: While he brags to people on the internet how he did a week and half of billed work in one day.

No, it was 60 hours between two of us. It wasn't uncommon to flag out 25-30 hours in a day when you work on 5 cars at once and can multitask....skipping lunch, hold your pee and then pass out from exhaustion at the end of the day, but if you don't work like that, no biggie.

[This message has been edited by bmwguru (edited 02-27-2013).]