Ken you are walking the planet with blinkers on. You state you can test anything in the bible and prove it to be true.

Show us the evidence of a worldwide flood. Thre wasn't one. It was localised in the middle east. That has been proved.

Prove jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead. Love to see how your goign to prove that.

Prove the Red Sea was even parted at all.

Showing a book with these things written in it is not proof. You won't beleive things written in science books but will believ the bible.

Also who said the bible was written by many people over 1000s of years? Prove it. It was probably written over a few years to help the church control the masses.

To believe an event 6000 or so years ago wiped out the dinosaurs really proves only one thing. Your a religious fanatic who cannot accept anything except your narrow minded view of the world.

Well, I guess Aus made his feelings clear.

"Also who said the bible was written by many people over 1000s of years? Prove it. It was probably written over a few years to help the church control the masses."

That's the point for politics and religion. You find drug addicts find Jebus in prison and play the Jebus card as a way through life. Jebus = social control; are you part of the club or not? Churches will discriminate and offer jobs or contracts to church members. It is considered a mitigating factor if a convict finds Jebus while in prison. It's all about social control, not whether there is a God, Jebus, and heaven or not.

reed sea NOT RED SEA only one of the many miss-tranlations in the king JAMES bible and many many others
the BIGGEST is JC's name NOBODY was called JESUS
his mom called him ya-sho-wa, why she did not name him EMANUEL like the angel said is a good question but his name was NOT JESUS anyway!!!!

read thomas for the un-spun version of his ideas
virgin birth no cross, rebirth, or end of the world in that version but they got the name RIGHT
but the real words of the real man!!!!

------------------
Question wonder and be wierd
are you kind?

never mind, no one is listening to anyone anyway.

[This message has been edited by lurker (edited 05-16-2003).]

your god is dead and no one cares.
if there is a hell, I'll see you there.

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85 LT4 GT
Custom Everything
in progress

quote Originally posted by GT-X: oh and feel no need to defend yourself Aus there are many documented cases of fertile Jackasses

Yes it seems many of them hang around this forum.

quote Originally posted by GT-X: your god is dead and no one cares. if there is a hell, I'll see you there.

Sounds like the lyrics to a Megadeath song, maybe Marylin Manson.

Actually, many people care, so that's not exactly true. But if there is a Hell, I will too see you there! Jebus is alive in our speech, our churches, and now our arguments, so Jebus is real even if only in ficticious conversation and symbolism. But as to whether Jebus was here as a Jewish carpenter...bla..bla....bla... That's quite unproven.

If we are going to hold a highly structured debate and only use fine point brushes, then you should keep track of what other people are saying

"The arguments you've used, concluding that an analogy disproves the Origin of Life theory..."

go back and start on page one - where did I say the english have disproved evolution?!

At first I only posted the article itself with no comments at all. Then I only discussed the fallicies of the monkey/keyboard analogy.

Im not the one who keeps dragging the rest of evolution and religion into this thread.

Things seem to be losing steam here.

Just so we can end this topic on a factual note:

The mule is a hybrid between a female horse or mare (2n=64) and a male donkey or jackass (2n=62). Since the mare contributes 32 chromosomes in her egg and the jackass contributes 31 chromosomes in his sperm, the mule has a diploid number of 63. Male and female mules are typically sterile because the horse and donkey chromosomes differ in number and they are not homologous. Therefore, the horse and donkey chromosome doublets fail to pair up with each other during synapsis of meiosis I. In fact, one horse doublet lacks a donkey doublet to pair up with. By the way, if the mother is a donkey or jennyass and the father is a stallion, the resulting hybrid is called a hinny.

Story and pic of the "Miracle Mule"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2399773.stm

Aus, thanks for the headsup on the blinkers, they dont turn off by themselves like they are suppose to.

"Prove Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead. Love to see how your goign to prove that."

Easy! The reason Jesus did this is so that we can be reconciled with our Creator, and part of that is: those of us who have been reconciled now have the gift of the Spirit of God living in us and through us.

If Jesus did not die on the cross as the perfect sacrific for us, if He did not rise again from the dead, then the Holy Spirit (which He said God would give to us) would not be with us now.

You can see the effect of this on people in the new testiment. Take Peter for example. Before Peneticost he had no clue what was going on. At one point he declared Jesus was the Messiah - then a few days later he tried to talk Jesus out of allowing Himself to be sacrificed.

Peter said he would never betray Jesus, then that very night he denied he even knew Him - three times.

Even after Jesus was resurrected, what did Peter and a few other apostles do? they went back to their old job, fishing. When Jesus asked him to his face (three times) do you love me? The best Peter was able to say was "Im fond of you" (look up the greek translation of the last chapter of John).

But 49 days after Ressurection Sunday, on Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit was given to those who belived what Jesus told them

their lives were completely transformed. After that event Peter was not afraid for his life, He spoke boldly to the Jewish Priests, and told them exactly who Jesus was, why He came, and confronted them for not knowing their Messiah when they were suppose to be the religious leaders of their people. All the followers of Jesus lived their lives with the power and the love of God flowing through them like a river of water.

Thats all still in the bible - not proof for you personally, right?

But the same situation still exists today. People who hear about Gods justice and His love for us, who accept the words Jesus spoke to us, who allow the Spirit of God to live in us and to act through us - we are changed, we are transformed just like Jesus said we would be, just like Peter and millions of others were.

If Jesus did not die on the cross and was not ressurrected, then none of this would happen. We would be putting our faith in nothing, and nothing would be living through us, and our lives would not be transformed.

If you dont believe this, go out and redline your Fiero and throw the rods trough the block - and let no one work on your car

see if it fixes itself? Can 'nothing' transform your broken engine? can nothing tranform a human being, to the extent we are like an entirely new creation?

and if you think these changes we experience are only due to some inner human strenght that we dont know we have, then try it yourself without God. Try to tell a child abuser to stop abusing children, tell a heroin addict to go cold turkey and see if he goes through withdrawel or not.

Your whole problem here is you want me to prove to you that God is who He says He is. You want to be convinced that the potential punishements, and rewards, are real and absolute before you will commit yourself to simply following the words of Jesus, learning from Him, letting God lead your life and change you.

You want proof first. Thats not going to happen. If Jesus has shown us the right way to live, then we should live that way for one simple reason: its the right thing to do (which means its the best thing for us).

If we have to be threatened with punishment, or promised other rewards first, then what does that reveal about you?

Are you going to stand up for what is right, no matter what it costs you? Or are you going to sell out to whoever has the biggest rock to drop on your head?

When you demand proof, that is what you are asking: show me the rock first, and show me the money I will get, then I will believe you.

How do I know the other things are true, like the flood and Noah? Jesus spoke of Noah as an actual person, not as a parable. He also said that before He returns, things will be as they were in the days of Noah, before the flood.

Jesus also spoke of Jonah as an actual person, and many other biblical events and persons.

These ancient events have very little to do with my day to day life, except they reveal the way God interacted with humanity, and reveal many (accurate) things about the nature of man, and the character of God.

Why are scientists so interested in these things - the fossil record, the origins of life, how many atoms dance on the head of a quasar?

What possible practical application do these things have to offer us in our everyday life except:

1. to stroke the scientists ego and make him feel intelligent and

2. to allow some people to convince themselves that there is no God - and therefore we are free to do whatever we want?

I dont have to dig in the dirt and look for rocks and old bones to know what the truth is, to know whats right and wrong. I dont need to study the creation with a microscope, becasue the Creator is alive and well, and I can interact with Him on a personal level.

Kierkegaard posited three stages of life, or spheres of existence: the esthetic, the ethical, and the religious. While he favored the term "stages" earlier in his writings, we are not to conceive of them necessarily as periods of life that one proceeds through in sequence, but rather as paradigms of existence. Moreover, many individuals might not traverse a certain stage, for example, the religious. The esthetic sphere is primarily that of self-gratification. The esthete enjoys art, literature, and music. Even the Bible can be appreciated esthetically and Christ portrayed as a tragic hero. The ethical sphere of existence applies to those who sense the claims of duty to God, country, or mankind in general. The religious sphere is divided into Religiousness A and B. Religiousness A applies to the individual who feels a sense of guilt before God. It is a religiousness of immanence. Religiousness B is transcendental in nature. It may be summed up by St. Paul's phrase: "In Christ". It consists of a radical conversion to Christ in the qualitative leap of faith. Kierkegaard also mentions intermediate stages, each of which he calls a confinium, or boundary. Irony lies between the esthetic and the ethical, and humor lies between the ethical and the religious.

quote Originally posted by ray b: read thomas for the un-spun version of his ideas virgin birth no cross, rebirth, or end of the world in that version but they got the name RIGHT but the real words of the real man!!!!

So this guy Thomas wrote a book about someone with a different name and a different life story... Why wouldn't the logical conclusion be that he was writing about a different person?

We will accept the book of Thomas into the bible

when you accept Moby Dick as an accurate historical record in your history books

and Through the Looking Glass in your physics and biology books.

thats your proof that jesus died and rose from the grave?! The fact that the 'holy spirit is with us now'.. man... You have to read a dictionary and read what PROOF is..

Proof: when someone says "Im going to do this, and then that will happen"

and 'that' happens, just as he said it would.

Which part of this do you have a problem with?!

or are you referring to the alcohol content in a liquid?

See thats just it, I don't think I live my life all that poorly. In fact, I take solice in the fact that I create it all. Sound egotistical, well it is.

If I do well on my stats exam on Tuesday, its because I studied and I knew what I was doing, it wasn't because some omnipotent being wanted me to achieve my goal of 95%(shameless plug)I created it.

If my girlfriend and I are successful in having a child, its because my sperm interacted with her egg and produced life. I don't see it as god's miracle. We created it.

In fact, the fact that my success resides on my shoulders is a comfort to me. If I succeed, the glory is mine, if I fail, so is the fault. I create it. I own it.

You say that I could experience god's love anytime I want. That's great, but I don't feel a need. I'm happy with my life, other than the fact that I live in a crappy neighborhood, but I created that problem too. See point one for my intended fix.

You see, I do feel free to do whatever I want. I use my own sense of morality to decide between right and wrong. I don't need to knock on doors to get people to validate my beliefs. I don't try to convince people to not be religious but do you have any idea how much attention my living with my girlfriend gains us on Sunday mornings? Why?

Now, to bring this thread back on track. The scientists try to prove their theories for the same reason you don't-faith. They believe in an idea and want desparately to explain it. They have faith in their ideas. I do agree that they will find evidence and try to make it fit. Religion does the same thing. There is no mention(to my knowledge) of dinosaurs in the bible. You explain this by having them killed off in the great flood. You are making evidence fit within your beliefs. We do it all the time. We weed out the information overload that we are bombarded with to make it make sense.

The thing is: If scientists threw out the entire notion of evolution, my life would go on. It's not a key component to my belief structure.

From my perspective, christians have a great amount of faith. Great. I also see that islamic people have great faith too. Do I need to show the pictures of the men cutting themselves to bleed as a sign of thier faith? The buddhist guy that rolls up a hill for a month? Buddhists, sikhs and many others have immeasurable faith. I'd say that they feel the same way you do. I don't think that they have a thought in the back of their head that their god is not real.

I'd go so far to say that they communicate with their god in much the same way you do.

All that says to me that no one can say to me that there is one definitive god and that god is mine. Kinda sounds like a couple different evolution theories doesn't it?

I can tell right now that you are thinking, my god has sent us to bring Jesus to these people because he represents the true god. I could answer that, but I think its outside the realm of this thread.

Happy debating

cutting up your head with a sword is not an act of faith, it stems from a lack of faith

punishing yourself like that indicates you do not believe God will accept you as you are, and you must earn your way into Gods favor. Same problem with the other religions you mentioned.

You say you are living with your girlfriend. So you are acting out an experiment that will show you whether the things God has shown us are correct or not. I dont think you are going to like the answers you get.

Studies have shown that couples who live together have a higher divorce rate and than those who abstain from sexual activity until they are married. You may be oblivious to the reason for this, but your girlfriend can explain it to you if you care to listen to her.

If she gets pregant then SHE is the one who will have to shoulder the responsibility completely, decide to keep the child, or abort it

and you are under no obligation to do anything right now. You are gambling and playing the odds with her future.

If you really loved her, and respected her, you would have waited until you were married. This may seem old fashioned to you (and even to her). Since you have not made a lifelong commitment to her, but you are engaging in activiity that will have life long consequences, you have demonstrated an absolute disregard for her dignity and mental well being.

Statistics bear this out with the increased divorce rate, and emotional problems that women experience as this compremised situation plays itself out. You are getting what you want from the relationship, you get to play house, and you are destroying her self respect in the process.

What is your marriage proposal going to sound like?:

1. I will marry you if everthing goes ok (I love you but only conditionally?)

2. Your having a what?!

3. Hey we can save 20% on our taxes if we get married!

4. ?

There are things that seem ok to us, they even seem right to us for a while, but in the long run they bring us nothing but pain. We dont have to go through that - God created us and knows what is best for us, what will bring us the most joy and fullfillment.

Friend, you are smiling now, but you are heading for a storm.

Ken, I am amazed at your ability to know all about Gridlock (and his girlfriend). You ought to become a phychic if you can tell that much about someone from such a limited set of data. How do you know it wasn't her idea to move in in the first place?

PS. According to general Christian theology, God is omnipotent and omniscent. If so, when he created Adam and Eve, then he knew exactly what Gridlock and his girlfriend would do. Therefore, he must approve.

It is the same thing as holding a bowling ball over your foot and then deliberately dropping it. You know it is going to hit your foot, so if you decide to drop it, you must want it to hit your foot.

The problem with proving anything in the Bible is that eventually, the person trying to prove it uses the Bible as evidence.

"I know the Bible is true! It says so in the Bible!"

Ken, I respect your viewpoint. I really do. I disagree with you on some points, but that's ok. But you seem to be willing to accept any possible theory supporting the Bible as proof of that it's fact. Yet, when an example offers something contrary, you say it can't be true, and use the Bible as your evidence. You're making too many leaps in judgement. It's like saying that 1+3=4, and 2+2=4, and 0+4=4, that's 3 different examples that any two numbers added together must equal 4.

Everyone keeps trying to "prove" religion. I'm telling you it can't be done. If you could prove it, it would be science. Religion is based on faith. Faith means "Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence."

Everytime you try to "prove faith" you're just shooting yourself in the foot.

God knew what He would do if man chose to sin, before He created the universe

but we still have a free will

God knows what we are capible of doing, and has planned accordingly

what we do as individuals, is up to us.

And I dont need to be a psychic to know what will happen if you drive your car without putting oil in the engine first - doesnt matter which car or whos car

or what will happen to a womens self esteem if she is in a situation that gridlock described.

You dont need psychic powers - only simple wisdom. Open your eyes and look what has happened to millions of others who did the same thing - then explain to me why you are exempt from the same weaknesses of human nature.

As I had mentioned prior, the Bible was transcribed by many monks during the middle ages. They were more artisans than anything. Many didn't even know what they were copying for they were illiterate. Transcription errors,translation, and embelishments (for aesthetic reasons)were common. The same could be said of the Koran.

Ray,
Christ's name was Yehshua(sp) in Hebrew, the Greek variation was Joshua, Roman pronounciation was Jesus. Christos is Greek for Annointed one.

I recently talked to a college buddy of mine who has a doctorate in Polymer something or other. His academic passion is(and second undergrad major) physics. I asked him about Ken's insistance that the 2nd law of thermodynamics supports chaos theory. He told me that New Earth Creationists (my buddy was raised Pentecostal, BTW)often do not state the complete law. He told me that not all processes move in the direction of decay or disintegration. It's only the overall entropy of the universe which increases. Therefore, some parts of a system may become more orderly and complex as long as this increase in order is balanced by a greater than or equal decrease in order elsewhere.

[This message has been edited by longtermgt (edited 05-16-2003).]

For an even more eye-opening experience, read the bible in Ancient Greek...so much has been lost through translations of translations of translations. The Ancient Greek really is the real deal.

quote Originally posted by ray b: reed sea NOT RED SEA only one of the many miss-tranlations in the king JAMES bible and many many others the BIGGEST is JC's name NOBODY was called JESUS his mom called him ya-sho-wa, why she did not name him EMANUEL like the angel said is a good question but his name was NOT JESUS anyway!!!! read thomas for the un-spun version of his ideas virgin birth no cross, rebirth, or end of the world in that version but they got the name RIGHT but the real words of the real man!!!!

Well, Sophia, that's all fine and everything, unless you have an agenda as Ken does. He started this interesting and engaging thread. Did you take the test above?

quote Originally posted by Sophia Nova: I could be wrong or stupid or both, but I was unaware that faith was about proving something to someone else...

Thank you!

While that should be obvious, it isn't.

Didn't the Discovery channel have several special recently on the Bible and Jesus? They were able to prove that a lot of the stuff did happen but not on as grand of a scale, ie no world flooding but that part of the world flooding. Have you guys heard of the spear of destiny? It is supposed to have a nail from the cross Jesus was crucified on. The Discovery channel did a special on this artifact also. It is a real thing that has been correctly dated to the right period.

quote [B]Originally posted by Ken W What is your marriage proposal going to sound like?: 1. I will marry you if everthing goes ok (I love you but only conditionally?) 2. Your having a what?! 3. Hey we can save 20% on our taxes if we get married! 4. ?

#3 is wrong married people PAYMORE if both WORK
that one of the things I tell friends planning marriage DO THE TAXES TOGETTER AND SEE HOW MUCH IT WILL COST YOU remember thats every year for the rest of your life

by DHR "So this guy Thomas wrote a book about someone with a different name and a different life story... Why wouldn't the logical conclusion be that he was writing about a different person?"

thomas is only the sayings no life story of JC
just JC said XXXXXXX

so NO, same dude JC, different words,

most are the SAME SAYINGS with unedited words
that churchie added or removed LATER in the bible versions

thomas was one of the 12 and wrote his version FIRST, real bible scholars belive this is the best version of what JC realy said, not the edited respun bible books that the chuch reworded to fit their dogma
thomas's work the church burned, as JC was not a churchie and alot didnot support their power grabing ways

read it yourself http://www.misericordia.edu/users/davies/thomas/Trans.htm

these the churchie donot like esp
77 Jesus said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained.

Split a piece of wood; I am there.

Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."

78 Jesus said, "Why have you come out to the countryside? To see a reed shaken by the wind? And to see a person dressed in soft clothes, [like your] rulers and your powerful ones? They are dressed in soft clothes, and they cannot understand truth."

113 His disciples said to him, "When will the kingdom come?"

"It will not come by watching for it. It will not be said, 'Look, here!' or 'Look, there!' Rather, the Father's kingdom is spread out upon the earth, and people don't see it."

see why the church burned it??

------------------
Question wonder and be wierd
are you kind?

quote Originally posted by Ken Wittlief: cutting up your head with a sword is not an act of faith, it stems from a lack of faith punishing yourself like that indicates you do not believe God will accept you as you are, and you must earn your way into Gods favor. Same problem with the other religions you mentioned. You say you are living with your girlfriend. So you are acting out an experiment that will show you whether the things God has shown us are correct or not. I dont think you are going to like the answers you get. Studies have shown that couples who live together have a higher divorce rate and than those who abstain from sexual activity until they are married. You may be oblivious to the reason for this, but your girlfriend can explain it to you if you care to listen to her. If she gets pregant then SHE is the one who will have to shoulder the responsibility completely, decide to keep the child, or abort it and you are under no obligation to do anything right now. You are gambling and playing the odds with her future. If you really loved her, and respected her, you would have waited until you were married. This may seem old fashioned to you (and even to her). Since you have not made a lifelong commitment to her, but you are engaging in activiity that will have life long consequences, you have demonstrated an absolute disregard for her dignity and mental well being. Statistics bear this out with the increased divorce rate, and emotional problems that women experience as this compremised situation plays itself out. You are getting what you want from the relationship, you get to play house, and you are destroying her self respect in the process. What is your marriage proposal going to sound like?: 1. I will marry you if everthing goes ok (I love you but only conditionally?) 2. Your having a what?! 3. Hey we can save 20% on our taxes if we get married! 4. ? There are things that seem ok to us, they even seem right to us for a while, but in the long run they bring us nothing but pain. We dont have to go through that - God created us and knows what is best for us, what will bring us the most joy and fullfillment. Friend, you are smiling now, but you are heading for a storm.

Thank you Ken. You proved my point for me completely why you will NEVER see me at church on Sunday. Its one thing to prove a point myself, but quite another to have the person you are debating with make it for you.

Must have been my idea to move in together so I could get laid right? Thats the only reason that two people would live together in sin.

Other than the fact that we don't wear rings, I dare you to tell a difference between us and a married couple. We squabble the same, we share the same joys and the same sorrows.

Oh, BTW-we are planning on having a child. I'm not planning on worst case scenario here. I realize that my bastard child is destined for hell, but thats a shame that he/she will have to bear. I intend to raise my child with the idea of self-choice in matters of religion, so you'll still have a chance.

On a personal note, I don't really appreciate your tone in your post. I have tried in any religious oriented thread to try to respect others positions, even if I completely disagree. This is difficult, and some times I type before I think.

Your post makes me sound like a dumb teenager trying to knock up my girlfriend on my way out the door. Thanks for that. No really, I'm glad she has no choice in the matter.

Well, once again, I'd like to thank you. If being a christian means I treat other people like this, you can keep your god. Maybe you should get off your self-rightous high horse and take a walk amongst the mortals once and awhile for the people they are, not what you would like them to be.

quote Originally posted by ray b:

"that the chuch reworded to fit their dogma
thomas's work the church burned, as JC was not a churchie and alot didnot support their power grabing ways"

If they burned it, how did these other scholars find it?

"77 Jesus said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained.

Split a piece of wood; I am there.

Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."

This is not inconsistent with most Christian believes regarding the Holy Trinity. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, three in one. Since God created all things, he is in everything and all around us.

"78 Jesus said, "Why have you come out to the countryside? To see a reed shaken by the wind? And to see a person dressed in soft clothes, [like your] rulers and your powerful ones? They are dressed in soft clothes, and they cannot understand truth."

This is also not inconsistent with the teachings of Christ as he often was critical of the political and religious leaders and teachings of the time he walked the Earth.

"113 His disciples said to him, "When will the kingdom come?"

"It will not come by watching for it. It will not be said, 'Look, here!' or 'Look, there!' Rather, the Father's kingdom is spread out upon the earth, and people don't see it."

Again, the only inconsistency is in your imagination. You are talking about two different things. Christ's kingdom came when he was sent to live among us as man and his kingdom was the earth. The disciples wanted to know where it was and how to find them, he told them. They were thinking that it was a kingdom of the form of Rome or Egypt, something that man delineates. It is a spiritual, Godly kingdom, not a man-made one.

You refer to it as if it was the end days, when all prophecy would be fulfilled. That's a different thing. To that, Jesus answered in Mark 13:

" 32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
34 For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping."

This is the second coming of Christ, when all prophecy will be fulfilled.

"see why the church burned it??"

Again, if it was destroyed, how was it ever found??

John Stricker

PS: In both the house and senate versions of the tax cut package, the marriage penalty has been greatly reduced and, in most cases, eliminated. You can thank GW Bush later Ray, but I'm glad he has your support.

Sorry John, I was being fasicious. I don't think my child would be destined for hell either, because there is no hell for anyone to be destined to. I don't think of myself as destined for anything either.

[This message has been edited by Gridlock (edited 05-17-2003).]

Uh oh.. I"m not baptized.. but my parents were protestant.. they decided to let me choose with my own free will.. I'll see you guys in hell..

What the **** is wrong with you people?! You believe in a pit of fiery hell if you do something wrong?! from your all loving 'creator'... 'god'.. You believe in a place of perfection if you do everthing 'right'? I really feel sorry for humanity..

one copy of thomas was found in a 4th century coptic church in egypt in the 1890's
the roman church and the greek orthos tryed to burn all copys of thomas and to keep it out of the bible,and all most got away with it, or did for 1500 years antway but most bible scholers belive it was the first of the books writen about JC by the real thomas who was one of the 12
unlike luke or mark or the bible book writer john3 [see my post on the 5 johns] who are not people who knew JC at all, but were churchies
thomas was NOT A CHURCHIE

------------------
Question wonder and be wierd
are you kind?

Ray,

We've been through the book of Thomas thing before, you and I, and I refuted each of your points back then and was rewarded with silence from you. No use going to all the trouble for the same result again.

My point in answering your post in THIS thread (which you failed to address) was that the writings you posted as being something the "churchies" hate was not inconsistent with the writings of the Bible.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by ray b: one copy of thomas was found in a 4th century coptic church in egypt in the 1890's the roman church and the greek orthos tryed to burn all copys of thomas and to keep it out of the bible,and all most got away with it, or did for 1500 years antway but most bible scholers belive it was the first of the books writen about JC by the real thomas who was one of the 12 unlike luke or mark or the bible book writer john3 [see my post on the 5 johns] who are not people who knew JC at all, but were churchies thomas was NOT A CHURCHIE

quote Originally posted by ray b: see why the church burned it??

Honestly, no I don't. I don't see any gross inconsistencies. Why do you think they did?