two questions have come up that are both important issues:
1. why is it so important that the whole bible is correct, all the way back to page 1?
2. How does the Holy Spirit teach someone the things they need to know?
The bible is a consistant communication from God to humanity, telling us how we were created, why we are here, and what our relationship with God is.
There are so many key points, I will try to hit only the main ones: God is infinite, but the universe is finite in every sense. The universe (including empty space and time) did not always exist, and one day it will all end and be replaced with something else. No other religion teaches this. Science has determined it is correct, the universe had a beginning, and it will end in what is called 'heat death'.
God created man so that we might have a loving relationship with Him. This means we must have a freewill, you cannot love someone is you are not free (if you are forced to do so) - and there must be some conditions of right and wrong if your freewill is to have any meaning.
Man was originally in a different state or condition than we are now. Adam walked with God, saw Him with his own eyes, stood in his presence. When Adam sinned then he died spiritually - was seperated from God, his connection with God was severed, just like your connection with the physical world is severed when you are asleep, or you die physically - his nature was change, and the entire universe fell from what it was and is continuing to fall (cerified by science, the universe is falling towards heat death, and with every generation our genetic makeup decays)
Did you know Jesus is in Genesis? when Adam sinned he tried to make clothes for himself from plants. What did God do? He slayed an animal and made clothes for Adam and Eve from the skin (look it up for yourself).
This is a representation of what God had planned all along. If man sinned, and was seperated from God, then He would offer up His own son as a way to cover our sins, our nakedness, and to allow us to be reunited with Him.
Tell us that Adam was a fable, and all this insight and knowledge of our relationship with our creator is lost.
Noah lived in a time when fallen angels were coming to earth, and breeding with women, creating a race of corrupted/altered humans. Only Noah and his immediate family were still genetically pure. That is why all the rest of humanity was wiped out in the flood - and the angels who had created this condition were restrained from the earth (and they will be released in the future and return here).
Jesus said, as it was in the time of Noah, so it will be at the end of this age. Now we have literally millions of people saying they are abducted from their bedrooms at night, and sexually assulted by little grey ugly beings, who defy the laws of physics. We have a written account of this happening in the past (in the Bible) - but in our conceded pride we dont believe that ancient nonsense, now we call them extraterrestrials instead of fallen angels.
tell us Noah was a fable and none of that stuff really happened, but here we are today, and its happening again. The same situation that led to the earth being purged, is starting again.
Moses was given specific rules from God that the Jewish people would have to follow, if they were to be His nation of priests, His representitives to humanity. Key to these was that sin would have to be covered with a blood sacrific, an animal would have to be killed to take the place of anyone who did not follow Gods commandments.
Again this was a foreshadow of the way that His son, Jesus, would offer up Himself as a sacrifice, not only to cover our sins, but to reverse the situation that caused our fallen nature, allowing our spirits to be restored to us, so that we could again stand in the presence of God, and interact with Him directly on a personal basis.
Take away Adam (the fall and the death of our spirits) take away Moses (the law and the conditions under which we can be reconciled) and take away Jesus as the Son of God (the final sacrifice in our place)
and you loose the ability for our spirits to be reborn (as Jesus said we must) - and none of us would be experienceing this for ourselves, today.
How could Moses or anyone from before the time of Christ, have known that millions of people would have this spirit-rebirth experience, and write all that stuff into the old testiment, setting the stage for what happened at Pentecost, 49 days after Jesus rose from the dead?! (they couldnt know, unless the information was communicated directly from God).
Once you have been born-again and the Spirit of God is living in you, you start to discover these things in the old testiment, as if you eyes are opened to things you could not see or understand before. Gods character, Gods plan, the ministry of Jesus, they are on every single page of the old testiment. Which page do you want to dismiss and call a fable? which pages should we tear out?
Its not important that we believe the old testiment is the literal word of God - thats backwards. The old testiment IS important because it IS the literal word of God, and His nature and character is communicated on every page.
[im going to post this a get to #2 on the next post]
[This message has been edited by Ken Wittlief (edited 05-28-2003).]
2. How does the Holy Spirit teach someone the things they need to know?
I have to issue a disclaimer here, I cannot put the Holy Spirit in a box, and say 'this is how He works' - the things I am writing here are only the things I have personally experienced, there most likely are many other ways that the Holy Spirit interacts with us, but I wont speak for anyone else.
The simplist answer is, how do you know if you are talking to someone else, or only talking to yourself? If I dont know something, and I ask a question, and I get an answer, then that answer did not come from me - it came from another being or person, right?
and when that answer later proves to solve a problem, and solve it in the best way possible, then you know it was not only from someone other than yourself, it was the RIGHT answer.
I've had many experiences where I was trying to figure something out, or trying to determine what to do, and the answer came to me (in many ways). There was a lady engineer I worked with, who was very interested in becoming a christian, but something did not sit right with her, and I did not know what it was.
After talking with her on and off for weeks, I finally told God, I dont know how to reach her, I dont know what to say to her - you are going to have to tell me what to do or say here.
That night I had a very clear and specific dream (I wont go into all the details here - its in my pdf file on my aol account if you want to read it). When I woke up, I knew that dream was the answer to my question. I told her what it was, and immediately she realized that she had been resisting God for reasons the world was putting on her. It was like the world was burying her alive and she was going along with it. She became a born-again christian.
Ive mentioned on here before how I was reading revelation 13 one day at work, and trying to understand who the beast was, whos name adds up to 666. I figured it was something to do with ancient languages, assigning numbers to letters, and I would never be able to figure it out for myself.
I forgot about it and went back to work, and almost immediately realized that ascii codes are used today to represent letters with numbers. I tried looking up the ascii codes for a couple names, to see what they would add up to. I figured it would take forever to figure out whos name would add up to 666 in ascii. So I went back to work, again, and immediately the idea popped into my head, what about The United Nations
I looked up the ascii codes for those letters, and sure enough, in base 16 (hex code used in all computers throughout the world) those letters add up to 666.
For me, its not that I hear the voice of God, or see visions (unless its in a dream, which does happen from time to time) - usually the way the Holy Spirit communicates with me is like I remember something, except its something I never knew before, so how could I remember it?
Ive driven to work sometimes, 20 minute ride, and start singing a song ive never heard before (praising God) - every verse is different, and the words are all right there, as if I had sung it a hundred times before.
Ive been in situations where I did not know what to do, then suddenly I know what to do - and its something I would never do (or say) on my own.
And Ive been in situations where I wanted to do something, or say something to someone, and nothing would be there - totally blank, and Im thinking "GOD, where are you? what should I do here"
and the other person will do something unexpected, like this one lady I was sitting next to on a flight across the country. She was telling me how much she was involved in the new age movement, how she talked to spirits - and she told me she was going to sent a spirit to me that night, to teach me about God - I was at a total loss of what to say to her (even though I had been deeply involved in the new age movement before becoming a christian, and I knew exactly what she was getting herself involved with). Then as the plane was landing, she handed me her business card, with her phone number and address on it. And she told me to call her or write to her.
I did write to her. It was about 15 pages I think, explaining to her in detail what she was really doing and the danger she was exposing herself to. I dont know why my mind was blank on the plane- maybe if I had confronted her right off, she would have clammed up and stopped talking to me. Keeping my mouth shut for 4 hours is against my nature :c) But the Holy Spirit knew what was needed, and He would have stapled my lips together if necessary.
This happens amost daily, the more you open yourself up to God, the more He engages you personally. I will be at work, and suddenly have a burden on my heart for someone. I cant call them, so I pray for them in the back of my mind all day (like hearing a song in your head). Later when Im able to get in contact with that person, I find out they were in a difficult situation right at that time.
I dont want to give the impression that God sends the Holy Spirit to you, and thats all you need from now on. God established a guideline back with Moses that things should be verified by at least three witnesses. The Bible is one, its an account written by people who had personal interaction with God. The Holy Spirit is another witness. Your own heart/soul is another (conscience). Other christians are a witness to the truth. Lets take a backwards example. Suppose I was reading the Bible, about God telling Abraham to take his son Issac up on a mountain and sacrifice him, and I decide God is telling me to kill my son as a sacrifice.
The rest of the bible clearly indicates that no more sacrifice is required for anything, that Jesus was the final offering. My conscience would tell me this was not the right thing to do. Other christains, when I consult them, would ask me specific questions, like "are you nuts?!"
Voyteks concern that people are going to open themselves to the Holy Spirit and then go off the deep end, are unfounded. People who start cults know they are lying to those who follow them - they know they are making it up as they go along.
And if you are walking through the woods in central NY, and you see two glowing men, who say "I am God, and this is my Son Jesus, we have a message for you"
then you know that God doesnt communicate to us in secret - you can tell them shiney guys, COOL! stay right there while I go get the rest of my christian friends, and you can tell us all at once.
Because if God has a message for us, its for all of us, and if He can communicate to me through the Holy Spirit, then I dont need to convince anyone else (any other christians) that God said this and that to me.
cause if you are a spirit filled born again christian, then He can communcate with you directly too. That is one of the primary purposes of the Holy Spirit, God doesnt NEED one person to be the go-between for Him and the rest of humanity (no matter what chair the guy sits in, or what hat he wears).
No longer required. The Holy Spirit is Christ IN you (our hope of Glory)
not just Him
and not just you
and not just someone else telling you what God says
and not just some 2000+ year old book.
Thats at least 4 separate sources of information at your disposal. When they are all in perfect agreement with each other, you are not just standing on solid ground
you are standing on solid rock.
[This message has been edited by Ken Wittlief (edited 05-28-2003).]
I read your file Ken. I found it an interesting read right up until chapter 14 I think. That was right about the time that the spiritual war came up and everytime I've heard a christian talk that way, I tuned out.
You are going to say that its because I feel I have something to be afraid of. Thats not it. I think the chapters from 14 on exemplify why christianity will never fit with my beliefs.
"Our society is rejecting Christian morality and promoting adultery, homosexuality, abortion, medically assisted suicide..."
I don't like the idea of people(whether in touch with their god or not) telling people how to live thier lives. The simple issues are easy, "yeah, you shouldn't smoke crystal meth". Its the touchier ones like homosexuality and medical suicide. I think the best people to make those decisions are those people.
I think born again christians that claim to have changed back to being heterosexual are deluded.
I think on these issues, we might as well agree to disagree because I know your stance on these issues, and I think you can assume mine
the only thing I would point out is people get defensive when Christians point out all the things are are wrong in our society, as if somehow we are perfect.
we are not perfect. If we thought we were perfect then we wouldnt need Jesus for anything. And Jesus made it clear that we would not become perfect in this lifetime
so christians are all sinners too, by definition.
one thing I have learned over the years, some people dont want to accept christianity, but not for their own reasons, but because of someone else - if I accept this, that means my mother wasnt saved, or my gay friend is not saved, or whoever
that is not your concern. If God can reach me (or you) He can reach anyone, right? If God is fair and loving then He is fair and loving to every person on the face of the earth, cause we are all sinners, equal in his eyes.
There on only one sin that Jesus spoke of that God will not forgive, and that is to mock or ridicule, or denounce the Holy Spirit, when God is trying to reach you personally, and the Holy Spirit is tugging at your heart, and you ignore it
then there is no hope for you - when God is trying to personally interact with you, and you ignore the conviction the Holy Spirit is laying on your heart, and you dismiss it, call it something else
then you have slammed the only door that was opened to you. All sins separate you from God - but ignoring His spirit is the one sin that will keep you separated from God forever.
thats like being on the Titanic, and throwing away your life jacket :c)
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11:13 PM
frontal lobe Member
Posts: 9042 From: brookfield,wisconsin Registered: Dec 1999
connecticutFiero, I'm not against the THEORY of evolution for RELIGIOUS purposes, I am against it because it is absolutely horrendous, flawed "science". I think most people, when something is spoken of as scientific, assume it has SOME degree of precision. Not even close. Carbon dating? Scientifically should be a joke. Fossil records? Completely inconsistent.
I'm not against "evolution", I'm against BAD, politically biased "science".
And the example you are talking about is change WITHIN a species. That is another problem. People never know what someone is talking about when discussing "evolution". I'm not against what your example said. I'm against the idea that "species" jumped from one to another.
The bible doesn't say God created every individual CURRENTLY ALIVE animal. It says He created them "after their kind." So dogs came from dogs, different cats from cats, etc.
Regardless, I appreciate your sensitivity to the feelings of others, but I didn't think you came across as offensive at all.
You still don't get it ray... Evil people will use any means at hand, including religion, to gain and hold power. The atheist Chinese government has managed to rack up quite a record of human rights abuses. They did it under the banners of communism and nationalism, not a religious mandate.
Please name one evil leader who has truly modeled their life after the teachings of Christ.
"and one more time the question that NO CHRISTIAN DARES ANSWER just how do your spin on gods laws differ from the tali-ban's"
simple. God gave Moses laws that the Jews had to follow, and the penalties that would be levied if they were broken
The standard was high, and it was set.
Jesus made it clear that no man would be able to meet that standard, and we have no right to hold someone else to it, if we cannot meet it ourselves.
I have never seen a Christian stone someone (execute someone) for any crime other than murder (and many christians debate whether capitol punishment is moral).
Because we understand we have no right to condemn someone else, when we are guilty ourselves. Christians leave the judgement and punishment of sinners up to God - we cant cast that first stone.
The Taliban, by contrast, has no problem judging its people, and inflicting horrible punishment on them for the smallest of crimes. They do not accept the idea that they must forgive others, or else they will not be forgiven for their own sins.
An eye for an eye is the legal standard. Grace, mercy and love is a beautiful thing, and it covers (forgives) a mulitude of sins. Christians bask in love. The Taliban has none.
ALSO, the taliban (Islam) has no concept that we need to have our spirits reborn in order to be reconciled to our creator - their only hope of being connected to God is in death, and they have to earn that by doing good works all their lives - they think doing a good thing balances out any bad thing you have done (try explaining that to the mother of a child you killed, I will work it off?)
Jesus said if your spirit is not reborn you cannot enter His kingdom. The taliban have no idea what this means.
Also, Christians belive their purpose in being here is to bring the good news of God's love to the rest of the world. The taliban believe they are here to take the world by force, killing anyone who stands in their way.
Im so glad you mentioned this, so we could get it all cleared up. Now you know the difference between Christians and the taliban, so you can stop ranting about it.
Thank you!
[This message has been edited by Ken Wittlief (edited 05-29-2003).]
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08:24 AM
Voytek Member
Posts: 1924 From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada Registered: Jan 2001
and one more time the question that NO CHRISTIAN DARES ANSWER just how do your spin on gods laws differ from the tali-ban's?????????????????????
HERE IS YOUR ANSWER RAY: Christian God says 'thou shall not kill' and 'do unto others as you would have them do unto you'. Christians don't kill and Christians don't discriminate against other religions or women. Case closed.
Ken - you are very much against organized religion. What IS organized religion? It has a name, leader(s) and followers. Generally these people meet in some building(s) and worship. The preacher(s) will preach and try to teach others.
Here is the 'Ken' organized religion: 1. You do it from your computer - big deal, so you don't make people drive anywhere. 2. You preach. 3. You try to teach (and convince?) others that the Christian way is the right way. 4. You have a name (Ken Wittlief), although you don't require others to call themselves Wittliefs. 5. You don't ask for anything in return (like money) but then again, you don't have a building / gathering place to keep up.
While I truly do admire what you are doing, and the fact that you're not afraid to tell the truth, I really see very little difference between organized religion and individual preachers. Each preaches and genuinely believes they're doing the right thing.
If a group of PFF members living close to you asked if they could come over and listen to you discuss the Bible, would you refuse? If this group asked if they could do it once a week, would you refuse? If this group grew larger by the week, would you turn them away? What kind of Christian would you be if you had turned them away? And if you provided snacks now, and drinks and asked everyone to chip in a few bucks, would this be bad? And if you had decided to purchase bibles for everyone, and hymn books and asked everyone to chip in, would this be bad as well? As you can see organized religion isn't as bad as you are making it out to be.
Do you believe in the general 'good' within people? If so, then why is it so hard for you to believe that some organized religions are ran by truly devoted people; by people such as yourself who have devoted their lives to opening others' eyes to God.
quote
Voyteks concern that people are going to open themselves to the Holy Spirit and then go off the deep end, are unfounded. People who start cults know they are lying to those who follow them - they know they are making it up as they go along.
CONCERN???!! Please re-read. I did say I believe in the Holy Spirit, did I not? I don't feel like re-writing everything I've said so let me summarize: not everyone is capable of RECOGNIZING the Holy Spirit. In fact, I'd go as far as saying that MOST people will never notice His work. That's why MEN (as in People) are involved in CONVEYING His message (such as through the writing of the Bible). How many young people out there see the flowers blooming and sun shining and say 'wow, thank God for this' and how many say 'man, I need to sit on the lawn and have a joint'.
You see Ken, that's why there are others that you have condemned that spread the word of God to masses.
Also, have you noticed that while there has been a sharp and steady decline in organized religion in the last 20-40 years, there has been an increase in born-again Christians, but the world is losing it's direction? It appears that the good people who have departed from churches have not found God on their own. I believe you have suggested that everyone will find the Holy Spirit at some point in their life. This is very untrue. If this were true, you would not need to convey your message on PFF.
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11:46 AM
Gridlock Member
Posts: 2874 From: New Westminster, BC Canada Registered: Apr 2002
Voytek-a very interesting post and a very interesting read. Not only do you want me to go to church, but you want Ken to go as well. Here is a guy that obviously reads the bible(I'll argue too much), but that isn't enough. He needs to go to that building on Sunday.
Why? Is that building you sit in not built by men? Do they not preach the religion that was created by man around the (supposed) word of God? Or do you all hide a portal to heaven in the basement of every church?
The one time I went to church(and got scared off by cult-like christians), it was the largst church I have ever seen. It sat at the end of a runway in all its glory. They had speakers in the bathroom so that you couldn't escape. Sorry, I meant so you wouldn't miss anything.
Here in the bible belt of BC, they don't just do religion, they buy it in bulk. I see so much money being spent on these larger than life churches that could do so much good in this city and in this world. I think the reason that churh is so big, is that the rich suburbanites of the surrounding area, wouldn't dare been seen in something less than stellar. I would figure that if the love of god was so great, it wouldn't matter what the church looked like. www.chistianlifeassembly.com
They even feature online tithing and offerings!!!
Tinkle, tinkle, there goes the collection plate.
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12:22 PM
PFF
System Bot
Gridlock Member
Posts: 2874 From: New Westminster, BC Canada Registered: Apr 2002
"Christian God says 'thou shall not kill' and 'do unto others as you would have them do unto you'. Christians don't kill and Christians don't discriminate against other religions or women. Case closed."
I don't think so. You discriminate against other religions all the time. It's not just the people like me that you try to get in church, its buddhists, hindu, sikhs and many others. I have heard time and time again how for christianity to be true in your hearts, all other religions must not be based on a real god.
Are you telling me that none of the problems in the middle east are based on christians not understanding and tolerating another peoples choice to whatever religion they want?
What about what is really happening to the Palestinian people? Not the prefabricated crap we see on CNN, I'm talking about the actual plight of the people.
The only way that you don't discriminate against other religions is that you will accept them all into your faith. As for accepting their existance at face value, no, I don't see it.
A couple of threads have been started on PFF alone spitting misunderstood quotes from the Koran about how their mission is to kill chistians. I think for the most part Islam wants the same things that chistians want. A group of fundamentalists(and christianity has its fair share too) has taken it upon themselves to even the playing field.
You are looking at another religion and judging it compared to your own everyday. I can't sit here and judge yours. I can't say,"Hey, that holy spirit that you claim is false." You can't say the same of other religions because it is intangible. All you can do is feel that yours is pretty damn real.
If you were in my country trying to undermine my peoples religious beliefs, I'd be pissed too. Not because its a matter of control, but because some white man who thinks he knows best is trying to mess with our soverignty.
Oh, and how did the christian church help crusade for equal rights for women? I read the book of genesis as putting men higher than women. She was created from his rib to be a companion to him.
Oh, and how about equal rights for african americans? I can bet that a whole lot of christian people had black help in their homes at the early part of the century.
[This message has been edited by Gridlock (edited 05-29-2003).]
organized religion is not a matter of milk and cookies
its a matter of men getting together and decideding who is closest to God, who is the spiritual leader amoung them, who pays for the mortgage on the buildings, who is allowed to 'give' communion
who is saved (a member) who is not, who do we extend the 'hand of fellowship' to...
who stands a the front of the assembly and is allowed to preach/teach/lecture and who must sit silently and accept what they are told
sitting together and writing our your formal doctrine, and then making sure all your members follow it to the letter.
Where is God in all that? - as I pointed out the Christain has at least four sources of information, four independant witnesses?
I have no such organization of men, buildings, funds, doctrines, or followers. It is personally insulting for you to imply that I do, on any level.
And do you have the gift of discernment? How do you know what I do with my time, money and energy when Im not sitting at my PC?
BTW - I see by your post that you do NOT BELIEVE the Holy Spirit is able to communicate to all men as He choses! Some are not able to comprehend Him?
what is He, a wisp of smoke or fog in the night? God is not powerful enough to reach everyone, so you have to do it for Him?!
YIKES!
[This message has been edited by Ken Wittlief (edited 05-29-2003).]
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02:31 PM
Voytek Member
Posts: 1924 From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada Registered: Jan 2001
organized religion is not a matter of milk and cookies
its a matter of men getting together and decideding who is closest to God, who is the spiritual leader amoung them, who pays for the mortgage on the buildings, who is allowed to 'give' communion
who is saved (a member) who is not, who do we extend the 'hand of fellowship' to...
who stands a the front of the assembly and is allowed to preach/teach/lecture and who must sit silently and accept what they are told
sitting together and writing our your formal doctrine, and then making sure all your members follow it to the letter.
Where is God in all that? - as I pointed out the Christain has at least four sources of information, four independant witnesses?
I have no such organization of men, buildings, funds, doctrines, or followers. It is personally insulting for you to imply that I do, on any level.
And do you have the gift of discernment? How do you know what I do with my time, money and energy when Im not sitting at my PC?
BTW - I see by your post that you do NOT BELIEVE the Holy Spirit is able to communicate to all men as He choses! Some are not able to comprehend Him?
what is He, a wisp of smoke or fog in the night? God is not powerful enough to reach everyone, so you have to do it for Him?!
YIKES!
[This message has been edited by Ken Wittlief (edited 05-29-2003).]
No, yours is absurd. You have not answered any of my points or questions.
Allow me to answer yours. Gridlock - this points is kind of directed to you as well.
I was not trying to convert ANY of you to go to ANY church. I was addressing the concerns that some of you (particularly Ken) have with organized religion and drawing the similarities between what you do here and what some preachers or churches do. Please re-read my post if you did not see this.
quote
Oh, and how about equal rights for african americans? I can bet that a whole lot of christian people had black help in their homes at the early part of the century.
Perhaps those were not TRUE Christians. I believe it was YOU Ken who told Ray to consider the actions of true Christians only. Other than that, Christians do sin, as well. You sound like you're condemning all those who faulted many centuries ago. It does not sound like you've understood the message of Jesus.
quote
If you were in my country trying to undermine my peoples religious beliefs, I'd be pissed too
Would you be pi$$ed enough to go and kill anyone who tries to undermine your beliefs? If I remember correctly, this is why Christians are being slaughtered in Africa every day. Our TV does not mention this little fact.
quote
You discriminate against other religions all the time
This is a bold statement. You don't know me and obviously you don't know my church.
If you're talking about Christians in general, then you've obviously gone to the wrong church. Some only *think* they are Christian (or *call* themselves Christian) but are the exact opposite.
If you are refering to me personally, I do NOT discriminate against ANYONE based on religion (or for any other reason). Just like you convey your beliefs, I convey mine. I agree with you on many fundamental issues but disagree as to how people should 'discover' God.
I believe in the Holy Spirit (as I've stated about 5 times) but I also know that God gave man free will. I'm sure you know that. This is why we can accept or reject Him. It is absolutely ludicrous to say that everyone will eventually discover the Holy Spirit and pursue their own form of spirituality.
God also works through others around us and it happens in many forms. Perhaps you preaching on PFF is one way. You CAN't assume that you KNOW God did not intend for organized religion to preach his word. If you assume you know this, then you are conceided and Jesus would be disgusted with you.
quote
The one time I went to church(and got scared off by cult-like christians), it was the largst church I have ever seen. It sat at the end of a runway in all its glory. They had speakers in the bathroom so that you couldn't escape. Sorry, I meant so you wouldn't miss anything.
Agreed. I've seen those churches. We have plenty here in Calgary. I DO believe, however, that SOME are legitimate and do, truly teach the word of God.
Why go to a building and sit and listen? Well, why do people make shrines? To honor someone or something. Is it wrong? No. Is making the extra effort for Jesus (like walking or driving when you don't feel like it) wrong? No. I realize it's much easier to pick up the Bible in your living room and we should ALL do this but there is NOTHING wrong with a little sacrifice.
Also, there are MANY different kinds of people in the world. You wonder, who were those people who bought AMC Gremlins? You say 'I would never buy it and neither would my friends'. Well SOMEONE did. SOMEONE also buys chunks of concrete on Ebay because they think these are pieces of the Berlin wall. My point is, there are ALL kinds of people out there and among them, many that are incapable or unwilling to read and interpret the Bible on their own. This is why we have Ken Wittliefs and why we have organized religions so the wisdom can be passed on.
What REALLY gets me is Ken's aggressive tone when it comes to discussing other forms of Christianity besides the 'born-again' type. You talk about tolerance but you are VERY judgemental. I almost see anger in some of your posts. Very un-Christian like.
Back on the evolution topic... To those who believe that evolution and religion don't mix: I do believe in some form of evolution. It is a fact that humans have evolved, both, physically and mentally. However, why would you assume that this all happened on its own? Maybe God intended for people to evolve?
One thing is for sure (as someone stated above). Species did not mix and humans were ALWAYS human.
[This message has been edited by Voytek (edited 05-29-2003).]
i did not answer your question or the points you raised, because I dont know where you are coming up with this stuff.
I never said everyone will FIND the Holy Spirit, I said at some point everyone embarks on a spiritual search - what they find depends on what they are looking for.
JESUS said if you seek God in earnist, you WILL find Him
where did I condemn other christians, or where did I even condemn orgainzed religious groups. I stated in my pdf file that I do not agree with them and I do not belong to one, or attend a formalized church. from this you read 'condemnation' ?!
If I quit my day job and decide I am now the PPF preacher, I put up a 'church' building with marble statues and stain glass windows, now I must have people showing up every week, giving me 10% (or more) of their income (before taxes) to pay the mortage and to pay my cost of living.
That is a real conflict of interest - if I say anything to offend them, and half dont show up next week, whos gonna pay that mortgage and buy my lunch for me?
You realationship with God is something you have to work out for yourself. You cant compel your children to belive as you do, even if you do sprinkle water on their head as an infant, and have a priest go "haa haa haa - receive the Holy Spirit" in their face, drag them into church every sunday for 18 years
if you forced someone other than your own child to do that, they would arrest you.
The only organization that exists in christianity is that Jesus is the head of the church, and we are all equal in his sight. Each of us has different talents and gifts, but its not up to US to organized ourselves - if you belive that God is real, and that He is intereseted in you personally, then God will send you where He wants you, open the doors He wants you to walk through, and close the ones He wants you to stay away from.
If you dont believe the Creator of the universe is ABLE to do that, or not interested in you on that level, then what kind of character do you think God is?!
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05:59 PM
frontal lobe Member
Posts: 9042 From: brookfield,wisconsin Registered: Dec 1999
Gridlock, let me say up front that you know I respect you, so when I answer I am doing it as a discussion and not a debate or argument.
When people use the word discriminate, people are often thinking of different degrees. Of course we discriminate all the time, and it isn't bad automatically.
In this case, I believe the bible is true. The bible is clear that Jesus is the ONLY way to God and heaven. So yes, in that sense, it discriminates against all religions like buddhists, hindu, sikhs, etc. I would not accept any of them into "my faith" unless they changed their beliefs. There would be no point. That is not in a bad sense. They would be welcome to visit the church, attend as often as they want, be treated friendly, etc. We would ask them not to give money/offerings as they would be guests. They couldn't vote on church issues, etc.
That DOES NOT mean I will not be friendly with one, hire one, work with one, help one in need, etc. I would not marry one-definitely discrimination for which I have no shame. I would have shame about the other issues.
I'm not looking at other religions and judging it compared to mine. I am looking at other religions and judging it compared to the bible. Judging in the sense of DISCERNING, not me personally condemning.
I do not look at asking people if I could have their permission to show them from the bible what I believe about how to get to heaven as "undermining their beliefs". They could say no, and I would leave them alone. They could say yes and consider it, and decide the bible isn't true. They could of their own mind without coersion decide it was true. That would NOT be "undermining their beliefs".
I am a white man, and I do think I know best and right, but if that approach is a serious danger and challenge to their sovereignty, THEY have a serious problem. THOSE countries like that are the ones that are not understanding and tolerating another people's choice to whatever religion they want.
No, most of the problems in the middle east have nothing to do with christians. It has to do with hatred of jews, and a hatred of the hedonistic American lifestyle in their religion's eyes.
And regarding african americans. You said it. Many had "black help". I'm sure some had slaves that they treated well as full time employees. And I'm sure there were christians that were just plain wrong and evil and abused slaves.
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06:05 PM
frontal lobe Member
Posts: 9042 From: brookfield,wisconsin Registered: Dec 1999
Ken, I'm not getting on you here, but the new testament pattern definitely instructs individual believers to place themselves in local assemblies.
It places Jesus as the head of these assemblies. Then it describes pastors, teachers, elders, deacons. It has older people being godly examples for the younger members. The new testament tells you to use your Holy Spirit given gifts for the edification of the church.
I agree with you that we are not talking about organized religions here. I'm not in one either. However, I am a member of an independent group of believers as described above.
It places Jesus as the head of these assemblies. Then it describes pastors, teachers, elders, deacons. It has older people being godly examples for the younger members. QUOTE]
EEEEEEKKKK!!! Catholicism comes to mind.
When I think of organized religion, I immediately think Catholicism. All the rumors circulating about gay priests and pedophiles certainly have been given merit over the past few years haven't they?
Something about celibacy, power, children, and "in the name of God" sure gives me the creeps.
What gives one person the right to be considered more-godly than another anyhow?
Not that thats what you mean specifically, just babbling.
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06:26 PM
frontal lobe Member
Posts: 9042 From: brookfield,wisconsin Registered: Dec 1999
Most people in Wisconsin would think catholicism as well as that is the largest organized religion here by far.
I was specifically trying to describe NOT organized religion. My local church answers to no hierarchy or other church, etc. We are locally owned and run-by the members.
The new testament has behavioral requirements for pastors and deacons that would be considered behaving more godly, but ANYONE could decide to live that way.
FYI the bible specifically orders people NOT to forbid anyone from getting married. Pastors are to be "the husband of one wife". The whole celibacy, priests-never-marrying thing is decidedly anti-bible teaching.
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07:29 PM
Gridlock Member
Posts: 2874 From: New Westminster, BC Canada Registered: Apr 2002
"This is a bold statement. You don't know me and obviously you don't know my church. "
This was intended as a global 'you'.
"It does not sound like you've understood the message of Jesus."
This would be a given
When I was referring to equal rights in general, I meant if the church is so great, and a wonderful thing to have in society, why weren't they championing rights for all? I think it became a means to a political end.
As I said in the other post, when I read Genesis(ok, I read about 1/2 of it), it comes off as very sexist. Its just one of those things that doesn't sit right with me.
"Would you be pi$$ed enough to go and kill anyone who tries to undermine your beliefs? If I remember correctly, this is why Christians are being slaughtered in Africa every day. Our TV does not mention this little fact."
I would advocate that these people shouldn't be there in the first place. I remember watching an infomercial produced by a christian affiliated charity that worked to feed and clothe people in Africa. Wonderful work. What I disagreed with was that they were teaching bible hymns to these kids that couldn't even speak english! If I hadn't eaten in ages, I'd start singing whatever song they wanted me to for food too. Yes, they feed these kids, but they ask for a lot in return. I'm sure if the entire village said, "we love the food, but please stop with the bible"-they'd be gone.
Often I see people doing things in the name of church that I disagree with and someone says that they aren't real christians or at my church we don't preach that way-but no one can show me a church that is real and good. All of them seem to have an agenda.
there are lots of places where christians get together to worship God (singing songs of praise) pray together, pray for each other, help each other with specific needs, study the bible together, and some are called pastors, and some are called elders or deacons
I have no problem with that - there are people in my area that I meet with - we dont refer to ourselves (or the building) as a church
there is no membership, nothing to join, they dont pass a collection plate, they dont take attendance, or tell you how much money you owe them (or God). They dont baptist anyone until they are old enough to decide they want to follow Jesus.
I dont consider that an organized religion, or a religious group. Its a bunch of individuals who all have one thing in common, at some point we turned our lives over to Jesus, and were born again - just like He said we would be. We get together because we want to, not because we were told we are suppose to. We like each other, being with each other, sharing what the Lord is doing in our lives, helping each other when we can.
If anyone believes this is the reason that society is falling apart, then its time to open you eyes to whats really going on in the world.
"What REALLY gets me is Ken's aggressive tone when it comes to discussing other forms of Christianity besides the 'born-again' type"
if you think Im agressive about this, what until you stand before God - HE is the one who said you MUST be born-again
if you have a problem with this, dont glare at me, take it up with Him.
maybe its time you come clean here - was there a point in your life when you asked God to take over your life, asked Him to pour His Spirit out on you?
there is only 'one type' of Christian from Gods perspective - you have either been reconciled to God, or you havent - your spirit has been reborn, or it hasnt
Jesus is living in you, and through you, His Spirit has been poured out on you, or it hasnt.
And this isnt something that happens to you when you are an infant, and it doesnt happen to you gradually over time
its like being married. You know if you are married or not, because you either looked in someones eyes, vowed your love for the rest of your life, and said "I DO!"
or it never happened.
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12:23 AM
Voytek Member
Posts: 1924 From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada Registered: Jan 2001
Originally posted by Ken Wittlief: i did not answer your question or the points you raised, because I dont know where you are coming up with this stuff.
Actually, there was nothing made up there. No statistics or anything like that. Those were simple common sense points that seem difficult for you to answer.
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where did I condemn other christians, or where did I even condemn orgainzed religious groups.
Um, does the 'black servant' thing, or the 'who's causing the conflicts' thing ring a bell?
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If I quit my day job and decide I am now the PPF preacher, I put up a 'church' building with marble statues and stain glass windows, now I must have people showing up every week, giving me 10% (or more) of their income (before taxes) to pay the mortage and to pay my cost of living.
And so the line is blurring...
BTW, not sure where you get the 10% from. I suppose maybe some churches ask for that.
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That is a real conflict of interest - if I say anything to offend them, and half dont show up next week, whos gonna pay that mortgage and buy my lunch for me?
How would the *truth* offend anyone?
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You realationship with God is something you have to work out for yourself. You cant compel your children to belive as you do, even if you do sprinkle water on their head as an infant, and have a priest go "haa haa haa - receive the Holy Spirit" in their face, drag them into church every sunday for 18 years.
if you forced someone other than your own child to do that, they would arrest you.
Do you believe in the right to spank your children? Parents do have certain rights, and that includes spiritual education. Remember my desert island / monkey example? If one never heard about God, one would never embark on the spiritual journey that you talk about.
And do you think YOU have the right to talk to your children about YOUR faith and YOUR bible interpretation?
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If you dont believe the Creator of the universe is ABLE to do that, or not interested in you on that level, then what kind of character do you think God is?!
I'll ask you again: have you heard of this little thing God gave us called 'free will'? SURE he'se ABLE to do ANYTHING but there is a reason why he doesn't. Why did he not stop 9/11 from happening? I'm not sure I can answer that question (or don't feel like trying) but it goes to show that God has given us choices. If we don't start praying somewhere, we won't receive the help. If we don't learn about Him, we won't start praying.
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maybe its time you come clean here - was there a point in your life when you asked God to take over your life, asked Him to pour His Spirit out on you?
All the time, my friend.
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there is no membership, nothing to join, they dont pass a collection plate, they dont take attendance, or tell you how much money you owe them (or God). They dont baptist anyone until they are old enough to decide they want to follow Jesus.
If you baptize a child, this child is still free to do what he or she wants when they grow up. By baptizing them you are not forcing them to follow anything.
There are MANY people out there who have been baptized at the will of their parents but now know nothing about God because they've chosen a different path. Similarly, many of those that have been baptized by a church now pursue a different type of Christian worship. A baptism does no harm to anyone.
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Ken, I'm not getting on you here, but the new testament pattern definitely instructs individual believers to place themselves in local assemblies
Ken, you missed this one.
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If anyone believes this is the reason that society is falling apart, then its time to open you eyes to whats really going on in the world.
And what would THAT be? Why don't you enlighten me because this is what I see:
I'll use this example: Poland (right up until mid '90's). Poland HAPPENS to be Catholic (it could be Anglican or Protestant or whatever). 98% of Poland were practicing Catholics, i.e. attending an organized assembly and doing whatever is done within an organized religion.
Cornography: none Divorce rate: next to none Violent crime: almost non existent Family values: very strong Abortion: none Gay marriages: none (in fact, I didn't know what gays were about until I got a little older and moved to Germany)
Isn't that all the values you preach? Is it a coincidence that this was a country with strong organized religion?
Again, for those of you who think I promote organized religion: I don't. You can do whatever you want but don't lump all organized religions into the same bag and assumet that it's all wrong. It's not.
My point is (that you fail to see) is that as organized religion declines, the society degenerates. Sure, we have more born-again Christians (good for them) but preaching on Pennock's won't instill values in too many people.
I also know some Mormons with some very strong family values and morals. They were taught through organized religion. They still willingly attend church.
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12:04 PM
Steve Normington Member
Posts: 7663 From: Mesa, AZ, USA Registered: Apr 2001
I'll use this example: Poland (right up until mid '90's). Poland HAPPENS to be Catholic (it could be Anglican or Protestant or whatever). 98% of Poland were practicing Catholics, i.e. attending an organized assembly and doing whatever is done within an organized religion.
Cornography: none Divorce rate: next to none Violent crime: almost non existent Family values: very strong Abortion: none Gay marriages: none (in fact, I didn't know what gays were about until I got a little older and moved to Germany)
Isn't that all the values you preach? Is it a coincidence that this was a country with strong organized religion?
Again, for those of you who think I promote organized religion: I don't. You can do whatever you want but don't lump all organized religions into the same bag and assumet that it's all wrong. It's not.
My point is (that you fail to see) is that as organized religion declines, the society degenerates. Sure, we have more born-again Christians (good for them) but preaching on Pennock's won't instill values in too many people.
You don't think the change in Poland would have anything to do with the fact that Poland was under the thumb of one of the strictest police states in the world?
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12:19 PM
Gridlock Member
Posts: 2874 From: New Westminster, BC Canada Registered: Apr 2002
"There are MANY people out there who have been baptized at the will of their parents but now know nothing about God because they've chosen a different path. Similarly, many of those that have been baptized by a church now pursue a different type of Christian worship. A baptism does no harm to anyone."
I was actually baptized. I can't understand the point. I walked in a church about 4 times after that. One was about 20 years later. I think I did a christmas eve thing one time about 7 or 8 and said never again.
Now, to everyone here on page 7, I'm confused. I see this need to have everyone at a church. Ken has decided to go and do his own thing, and he is being chastized for it. By his fellow chistians no less!
Now obviously Ken preaches a fairly, I don't know what the word is, a hardcore christian lifestyle. I've seen that become apparent throughout this thread. I'm still a little bitter about page 3.
I will agree that Poland is not a good example. But it is interesting. I see that list, and I see a people that are very oppressed. I see women living with men out of force. I view divorce as sometimes a neccessary evil. Not the hollywood view that ,"he doesn't match my wardrobe-I want a divorce" but more of women being beaten. Violent crimes-always a good thing to have it lower. Abortion-I am strongly in favour of a womans right to choose. I always have and always will. Gay marriages-I feel that being gay is not a choice, so obviously I feel these people would not be living thier ideal lives.
So you hold it out as a wonderful example of what organized religion can do, and I see it as a good example of what organized religion does.
VOytek:"Um, does the 'black servant' thing, or the 'who's causing the conflicts' thing ring a bell?"
yes! and I was not the one who said those things- you are confusing me with people in this thread who are opposed to my religious beliefs.
Im in here, on Fire for the Lord, Rayb is flinging harpoons left and right, spraying foam everywhere, and you are throwing buckets of ice water at me.
Geeze man! Im telling people that God loves them and Jesus has opened the door to allow them to be reconciled to their creator- that they can have a personal relationship with God, that will transform their lives into something that is beautiful beyond our ability to comprehend.
who do you represent here? Jesus? God? Mormons? the pope? yourself?! I have no clue cause you are all over the place. Go back to page one of this thread, take notes if you have to, and come back when you can stop flailing.
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01:19 PM
Voytek Member
Posts: 1924 From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada Registered: Jan 2001
VOytek:"Um, does the 'black servant' thing, or the 'who's causing the conflicts' thing ring a bell?"
yes! and I was not the one who said those things- you are confusing me with people in this thread who are opposed to my religious beliefs.
Im in here, on Fire for the Lord, Rayb is flinging harpoons left and right, spraying foam everywhere, and you are throwing buckets of ice water at me.
Geeze man! Im telling people that God loves them and Jesus has opened the door to allow them to be reconciled to their creator- that they can have a personal relationship with God, that will transform their lives into something that is beautiful beyond our ability to comprehend.
who do you represent here? Jesus? God? Mormons? the pope? yourself?! I have no clue cause you are all over the place. Go back to page one of this thread, take notes if you have to, and come back when you can stop flailing.
All OVER the place? Gee man, I thought I was the one who quoted all that is being said and responded very directly. You're pretty dense not to be able to follow this.
I believe you have forgotten what you have been saying about organized religion and born-again Christians and at which point I joined in. Please go back and re-read before you tell me to leave again.
If ALL you've been saying here is that God loves people, this thread would not have 7 pages (and I am NOT saying it's just you but it certainly is mostly you).
Have you not read ANYTHING I've said??. I agree with you on so many things but disagree as to how they should be conveyed. I disagree with your dismissal of all organized religion as being out there for personal gain and money. I believe these ARE the things you've said (more or less), are they not?
You fail to answer any of my questions and points. You pick the ones that suit you and the ones that are easy to pick on. That's what makes debating with you so difficult - you show no good will and keep your mind closed.
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You don't think the change in Poland would have anything to do with the fact that Poland was under the thumb of one of the strictest police states in the world?
Not sure what you mean by change. I'm going to assume that you mean the change for good?? i.e. people going to churches?? If this is, in fact, what you mean then look at this: other countries in Eastern Europe were in the same (or worse) situation. Romania and Bulgaria, for example had the same form of communism and people were nowhere near as religious, i.e. they chose (for whatever reason) not to follow religion nearly as much as Poles. Take the divorce rate for one: it was MUCH higher in those countries. Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not. Strong Christian countries don't experience the problems that we 'free' people have today. Look at America 30 or 40 years ago. I really don't believe the decline in church going people and rise in immorality are a coincidence.
The reason I'm saying this?? Again, for *some* who are too lazy to see where this started, or don't remember what they've said in their own previous posts: organized religion is not all bad. In fact, it CAN be (and I belive is) MUCH better than 'doing it on your own at your own time and place'.
When Ray bashes Christianity, we reply by talking about 'true' Christians. Well, believe it or not, some 'true' Christians have done great things through organized religion (mother Theresa comes to mind).
BTW Ken, do the words 'do this in memory of me' mean anything?
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yes! and I was not the one who said those things- you are confusing me with people in this thread who are opposed to my religious beliefs.
. Sorry - I did get confused here (see what happens when you don't read carefully?).
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Ken, I'm not getting on you here, but the new testament pattern definitely instructs individual believers to place themselves in local assemblies.
Still waiting for you to answer this (among many other points).
quote
But it is interesting. I see that list, and I see a people that are very oppressed. I see women living with men out of force. I view divorce as sometimes a neccessary evil. Not the hollywood view that ,"he doesn't match my wardrobe-I want a divorce" but more of women being beaten. Violent crimes-always a good thing to have it lower. Abortion-I am strongly in favour of a womans right to choose. I always have and always will. Gay marriages-I feel that being gay is not a choice, so obviously I feel these people would not be living thier ideal lives.
So you hold it out as a wonderful example of what organized religion can do, and I see it as a good example of what organized religion does.
Obviously our beliefs mean that you and I have different definition of moral standards. The difference is that one of us believes in things that lead to the self-destruction of humanity. Ken can explain to you what I mean - I'm starting to get tired of typing.
i did respond to this (BTW, that is a misquote, the early christian were advised to not refrain from getting together, assembling themselves as a group to pray, worship, study together - not to FORM an organized group, call it a 'church' or an 'assembly'
I hate to quote my own posts, but only since you say I did not respond to it, here it is again, from this same page:
"there are people in my area that I MEET WITH - we dont refer to ourselves (or the building) as a church
there is no membership, nothing to join, they dont pass a collection plate, they dont take attendance, or tell you how much money you owe them (or God). They dont baptist anyone until they are old enough to decide they want to follow Jesus.
I dont consider that an organized religion, or a religious group. "
BTW - my pdf file (if that is what you are so upset about) was written over ten years ago - I never said I shun the company of other christians, or avoid being in the same building with them
I said I see no need to organize ourselves formally, and many reasons NOT to.
[This message has been edited by Ken Wittlief (edited 05-30-2003).]
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03:03 PM
Voytek Member
Posts: 1924 From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada Registered: Jan 2001
i did respond to this (BTW, that is a misquote, the early christian were advised to not refrain from getting together, assembling themselves as a group to pray, worship, study together - not to FORM an organized group, call it a 'church' or an 'assembly'
I hate to quote my own posts, but only since you say I did not respond to it, here it is again, from this same page:
"there are people in my area that I MEET WITH - we dont refer to ourselves (or the building) as a church
there is no membership, nothing to join, they dont pass a collection plate, they dont take attendance, or tell you how much money you owe them (or God). They dont baptist anyone until they are old enough to decide they want to follow Jesus.
I dont consider that an organized religion, or a religious group. "
BTW - my pdf file (if that is what you are so upset about) was written over ten years ago - I never said I shun the company of other christians, or avoid being in the same building with them
I said I see no need to organize ourselves formally, and many reasons NOT to.
[This message has been edited by Ken Wittlief (edited 05-30-2003).]
Again, you've touched on one or two points but not others. Whatever.
I've never read your PDF file. My discussion is limited to what I read here on PFF. Maybe one day I'll take the time to read it but meantime, I'm outta here. Time to read about Fieros again.
