LONDON - Give an infinite number of monkeys an infinite number of typewriters, the theory goes, and they will eventually produce the works of Shakespeare.
Give six monkeys one computer for a month, and they will produce a mess.
Researchers at Plymouth University in England reported this week that primates left alone with a computer attacked the machine and failed to produce a single word.
"They pressed a lot of S's," researcher Mike Phillips said Friday. "Obviously, English isn't their first language."
A group of faculty and students in the university's media program left a computer in the monkey enclosure at Paignton Zoo in southwest England, home to six Sulawesi crested macaques. Then, they waited.
At first, said Phillips, "the lead male got a stone and started bashing the hell out of it.
"Another thing they were interested in was in defecating and urinating all over the keyboard," added Phillips, who runs the university's Institute of Digital Arts and Technologies.
Eventually, monkeys Elmo, Gum, Heather, Holly, Mistletoe and Rowan produced five pages of text, composed primarily of the letter S. Later, the letters A, J, L and M crept in — not quite literature.
Phillips said the project — funded by England's Arts Council rather than by scientific bodies — was intended more as performance art than scientific experiment.
The notion that monkeys typing at random will eventually produce literature is often attributed to Thomas Huxley, a 19th-century scientist who supported Charles Darwin's theories of evolution. Mathematicians have also used it to illustrate concepts of chance.
The Plymouth experiment was part of the Vivaria Project, which plans to install computers in zoos across Europe to study differences between animal and artificial life.
Phillips said the experiment showed that monkeys "are not random generators. They're more complex than that.
"They were quite interested in the screen, and they saw that when they typed a letter, something happened. There was a level of intention there."
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10:16 AM
PFF
System Bot
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
ken, take your great grandparents for example, they likely passed away before computers were invented but say you could take your laptop back in time and give it to them and see what they produce from it if anything. And they are likely well versed in the human world.
i bet the monkeys with their minimal IQ wouldnt looks so dumb now. Ill admit that macaques are likely soem of the smarter old world monkeys, but they are still fairly dimwitted when compared to the great apes. Give the same computer to a chimp or bonobo with some direction and ill bet that they wont deficate on the keyboard.
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11:16 AM
RACE Member
Posts: 4842 From: Des Moines IA Registered: Dec 2002
the premise of the theory was if you give 1 million monkeys a million years, they will type out all of Shakespears works strictly by random.
People accepted that at face value - someone finally put it to the test - the reality is, monkeys dont know what a keyboard is
as evidenced by their preference for bashing it with a rock, or deficating on it.
And if you teach the monkeys how to use the keyboard, then its not random anymore, is it? Saying that you have to teach the monkeys admits you must have a higher being intervene in the 'random' process for it to even get started.
I think this is an excellent example of how evolutionists oversimplify everything, and never test their basic assuptions - it sounds good to them so it must be true - no, its a fact! An amebia is just ONE CELL - so simple, right?
DNA is nothing but a string of random numbers, right?
This simple experiment has shown that all you end up with is a million smashed soiled soggy keyboards - the equipment itself would not last long enough for a single word to be typed by random chance.
[This message has been edited by Ken Wittlief (edited 05-09-2003).]
ken: You can't seem to grasp the concept of infinite.. It's not just about monkeys... it's about given enough time, randomness turns out something logical..
you can sit as many monkeys as you want down infront of keyboards, and they will smash them and Kwrap on them
which part of this cant you grasp. You can try to put D cells into a AA cell flashlite, and you can try a infinite number of D cells, and they will NEVER fit
why does evolution and the big bang immediatly transfer to people that their is no such thing as god and were all an accident. Maybe things like evolution and the big bang were gods plan. I mean most scientists agree that the big bang occured but that the odds of everything coming together so perfectly to make our world our so minute that their has to be a greater power...god...that brought these things together. Personaly I don't think the above article has anything to do with whether or not their was evolution. You kind of lost me with the battery statement. Your right you would never fit a d battery in an AA space. The monkey has a random actions so sooner or later he could by accident spell something. On the other hand thir is no random action from a battery...it's always the same. Maybe I just lost something in your comparison because it didn't seem to make sense...
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01:53 PM
Cliff Pennock Administrator
Posts: 11735 From: Zandvoort, The Netherlands Registered: Jan 99
I think if a computer was taken into the past to say the old west it may get bashed with rocks there too. We know what we know because we made the mistakes it took to learn it, recorded it and passed it on. Monkeys cant do that in one generation. Leave the computer there long enough and well maybe just maybe you might get something. I doubt it though. evolution or not Monkeys cant type much better than me. Sure they may spell better but...
No you got my point exactly - what monkeys do is NOT random
monkeys do that which is natural for them - and this little experiment shows that it is not natural for monkeys to sit down at a keyboards and start typing
so using monkeys as an example of random chance, it now turns out, demonstrates that things we think are simple, the parts of the logic and reasoning behind the theory of evolution
even those simple things, arnt!
If you give a monkey a keyboard then his natual tendency will be to smash it, then use it for a toilet, then to sit an push the same key over and over.
He has no reason not to smash it, no reason not to Kwrap on it - so the equipment never survives long enough to get around to shakespear. If the monkey smashes the keyboard on day one of the 1 million year experiment, then nothing will be typed on that keyboard for the next million years.
Its the same way with trying to form viable protien strands by random. Only one out of 1E360 possible combinations will be able to be used to form DNA- the other combinations are mostly toxic tars and deadly chemicals.
So even if you did get that one strand of DNA to form by random, it would be sitting a a pool of toxic tar/chemicals... and there is no chance it will ever 'go on' to form a DNA strand
much less a living cell.
Even if you did get one monkey to sit down and start typing - he would either get bored with it in a few hours, or another monkey would smash his keyboard with a rock.
so Shakesphere will never 'happen' by random.
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02:36 PM
larryemory Member
Posts: 838 From: Greensboro, NC USA Registered: Jan 2003
Inreresting idea. Common sense would indicate that the works of Shakespere would eventually result from random occourences. The universe might not last that long, however. Come to think of it; maybe Shakeare is the result of random occourrences? Monkey's actions are not random. They are not intelligent. Is there some middle ground? Could it be that monkeys themselves are the result of random chance? 200 years ago computers would have been considered witchcraft or a spawn of the devel-then maybe they are! Leave a computer there long enough and it might become self aware. "and there is no chance it will ever go on to form a DNA strand". Where did trillions of them come from? "randomness turns out something logical" If it's random how can it be logical unless there is an intelligence to recognise it? Is intellegence itself a product of random chance? How can anyone understand "never". A negetive cannot be proven by any known logic. One can prove something exists but one cannot prove something does not exist. Would random chance eventually produce a monkey who is intelligent enough to type? Seem like it's already happened! Why are there so many morons? Maybe intelligence is random.
The Infinite Monkey thing is a parable intended to illustrate the laws of probability, not a scientific theory postulated to prove a fact.
It's a "How many angels can you fit on the head of a pin" kinda thing. Meant to illustrate a point, it can never be proven (or disproven) as too much time is required to prove it (I.e. Infinity).
No point in arguing about it...
------------------ Ed Dana 88 Coupe.
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03:57 PM
DRH Member
Posts: 2683 From: Onalaska, WI, USA Registered: Dec 1999
According to evolution, man evolved from ape like creatures.
Shakespeare wrote his entire works (arguably he may have borrowed a bit here and there).
So see, maybe monkeys did create the entire works of Shakespeare. And it only took hundreds of thousands of "monkeys", a few million years and no typewriters.
If evoloution is correct why are there still so many morons? LOL
Because, as many contemporary scientists have recently established, we have bastardized conventional evolution. Formerly, adaptability had a little to do with physical prowess, but over the past 100 years or so fiscal dominance defines the alpha male. So Bill Gates is the Alpha male of the world, and Enron executives follow, etc......
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11:39 PM
PFF
System Bot
I'm Back Member
Posts: 3780 From: Phoenix, Az, USA Registered: Oct 2002
Ken.. If you are trying to put the words 'never' and infinity together, than you don't understand infinity.. It's just a theory that if you let 'randomness' go together for an infinite amount of time, it comes up with something logical! It doesn't have to be monkeys.. If you let Ken sit there and rant on and on for an infinite amount of years, he will come up with the works of shakespeare!
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02:05 AM
frontal lobe Member
Posts: 9042 From: brookfield,wisconsin Registered: Dec 1999
One man's funny is another man's rude. I think lurker was rude.
JohnnyK, I didn't see Ken doing any ranting, but just because you don't like Ken's point of view it is a rant.
I think you guys are taking an interesting thread and dragging it off topic into a let's pick on Ken thread.
You're right, let's start a thread entitled, "Let's pick on Ken!!!!"
I'm joking
Ken has the right (within Cliff's rules) to start whatever threads he wants, but he can't, nor can anyone else limit the form of reply or dissent he receives (except Cliff). Some people, never me of course , continually post political and/or religious threads and can count on as much or more dissent than they do concurrence. Of the people that post shinny, fun, non-offensive topics, how many receive dissent and sometimes ridicule? So to borrow something religious: We reap what we sow. Now, back to being agnostic.....
even if you ignore the data that indicates the speed of light, and other atomic 'constants' are slowing down
and you accept the bizillion year old universe projections.
There STILL has not been enough seconds, or enough atoms in entire universe
for one single strand of protien to form by random (based on its complexity)
much less, a single strand of DNA - not even close
in all of the universe, anywhere - not ONE!
13.7 billion is the current best guess back to big bang but only about 5 billion for the earth's age
btw light is NOT SLOWING DOWN the univerce is expanding ever faster but no change in speed of light as per latest data
protiens and DNA ??? I donot know where you got that IDEA but it is wrong!!!! the DNA is made of amino-acid base pairs the building blocks of life and amino acids are common in many odd places like deep space clouds or in trials to reproduce earths early condissions so sorry but your churchie BS is just wrong about this one.
btw the proof is allso IT HAPPENED and we are here
yes the monkeys and typewriters is a weird idea but not a fact to test or anything to do with evolution, more number theory and satistics thing!!
angels and pins while both monkeys and typing and pins all exist, THERE ARE NO ANGELS, so the correct answer to how many can dance, on the head of a pin is NONE!!!
------------------ Question wonder and be wierd are you kind?
[This message has been edited by ray b (edited 05-10-2003).]
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10:27 AM
Wichita Member
Posts: 20677 From: Wichita, Kansas Registered: Jun 2002
Once again Ken, your adherence to dogma prevents you from accepting the truths that science will eventually bring to bear. You only see the dead ends that are an accepted part of research. Science allows for rethinking and revision. Your brand of religion does not. Those who rely on the literal interpretation of an ancient text (which has been appended and undergone many transcriptions and translation) typically oversimplify the nature of things by distilling life's complexities down to a common denominator in the form of a supreme being. Sure, DNA is complex enough to not have sprung from the primordial stew. Some scientists, since 1982, suggests that the molecule may have evolved from RNA which can act like an enzyme and speed up chemical processes like protien synthesis. RNA has also shown a possibility that it could, at one time, self replicate. Studies in RNAi can explain what differentiates the diversity of life. The question now is what came before RNA. In time that will be revealed. You have to understand that random variation is only beneficial if the resulting trait aids in the survival of progeny and therefore survival of the species. AIDs and SARS research suggests that exposure be powerful enough of a stressor to spurn genetic mutation. Aproximately 20% of caucasians with western european ancestry who are exposed to HIV never go on to develop AIDs. Bubonic plague is thought to be the stressor that brought about a beneficial mutation. Recent SARS studies suggests that exposure in childhood years can result in resistance in adulthood. As one of my professors said, life finds a way. Chimps and apes have been taught to use keyboards and American sign language and have been doing so for decades. Many forms of life are learning animals that have passed on learned behavior to their offspring. Where would a human be if it did not have a wealth of knowledge from which to build upon and innovate? Evolution sticks with winners.
frontal: You are the one who always preaches that "yes, there is free speech, but other people don't have to like it!" Ken spoke his mind, other people don't like it.. It happens every day here.. I don't see any problem?
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01:38 PM
lurker Member
Posts: 12353 From: salisbury nc usa Registered: Feb 2002
johnnyk, you are right. I do say that. The problem I had wasn't that you don't like his opinion. The problem I had was that you weren't reacting to his opinion, you were picking on him. lurker started it, and then others started piling on.
I wasn't trying to humiliate anyone, or cause them to go flog themselves. You can be disrespectful to people in your dissents if you like. None of you tried to deny that you were picking on Ken personally, you all just responded to justify why it was o.k. to do so.
I actually like you all and although I often disagree with you, value hearing your viewpoints. I just would like PFF to continue to be that kind of place.
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09:09 PM
Xantavar Member
Posts: 1158 From: Big Rapids, MI...Ferris State Registered: Nov 2002
I see what you mean, Longtermgt, but, in all the millions of years the universe has been around....and WE are the only ones....
If evolution is true, why are we alone? If RNAi is the theory for life, why isn't it elsewhere? Why is this planet so perfectly aligned with the sun so life can flourish? Why is there no life anywhere else in our solar system?
If we are so random, why are we here? Why do we posess intelligence and emotion? Why are WE the thinkers? Why didn't the parrots or seeing-eye dogs in the world build what we have?
Why?????????
You see now why there is so many loopholes in evolution and thinking of the big bang. If this is so random, why is it so logical and perfect?
Somehow, I think it's going to be something that scientists cannot explain. Like chaos theory and such, it is impossible to thouroughly comprehend.
------------------ #7277 of 46581 built in 1987. My thoughts are on you Sean and Chris! Come back safe!
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09:10 PM
lurker Member
Posts: 12353 From: salisbury nc usa Registered: Feb 2002
Thinly-veiled enough that I'm not exactly sure which agenda it is. Because he never brought up religion at all, which is what convert usually refers to if the context isn't clear.
I can understand your "suspicion" based on his very open previous views on christianity. But throughout this thread, he kept the discussion narrowly defined to the specific topic at hand.
So I guess I could say one man's thin-veiling is another man's hypersensitivity.
You can't see facial expression in print, so I want to make it clear that I had no intent on coming across as scolding you previously. My attitude was really ASKING. So I apologize because, really, that's not how I meant anything.
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11:25 PM
May 11th, 2003
Tonker Member
Posts: 612 From: Ottawa, ON, Canada Registered: Jun 2001
the premise of the theory was if you give 1 million monkeys a million years, they will type out all of Shakespears works strictly by random.
People accepted that at face value - someone finally put it to the test - the reality is, monkeys dont know what a keyboard is
So what's your point? They've only had the damn computer for a month and they've already gor the first letter of Shakespeare's name down pat... What the h3ll do you expect? They're monkeys!! Give them time!
Oh, and let's be honest here. How many of us haven't at some point been tempted at work to say "Right!! That's it! I've had it here..." and defecate on our computer? Umm.. Oops. That was supposed to be the quiet part...
xantavar: Thats EXACTLY why it's random.. YOu think if there WAS a god, then he'd ONLY make us out of billions and billions of lightyears?? As far as what 'could have been'.. we are pretty ****ing shitty...
frontal: We're not picking on him.. As I've been through before.. I posted a thread that I didn't like what america was doing with this 'war'.. You didn't seem to complain when 100 members jumped on my back and started making personal insults..
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02:47 AM
lurker Member
Posts: 12353 From: salisbury nc usa Registered: Feb 2002
Originally posted by frontal lobe: You can't see facial expression in print, so I want to make it clear that I had no intent on coming across as scolding you previously.
Xantavar, I don't think I can do justice to such a fascinating topic, but here goes. The universe is generally accepted to be around 13.6 BILLION years old. Our solar system is around 4.6 billion years old. Life is thought to have emerged 3.5 billion years ago. During those first 2 billion years, the rate of complexity is approximately 1 bit of information per 100 years. The rate of increase in DNA complexity gradually rose to 1 bit per year over the past few million years. You can see how slow the process is. Work by a biologist named Richard Dawkins illustrates complexity and gives us a view of how natural selection works. His model uses a computer generated organism capable of change. Survival of a particular strain depended on simple traits such as interesting, different, and insect-like. The program begins with single pixeled biomorphs. Random generations developed through a process similar to natural selection. The original single pixels evolved into an insect like form in 29 generations with a number of evolutionary dead ends. Have you ever seen the hominid family tree? Same thing. What I gleened from RNA and RNA interference research is the ease at which RNA can interact with many different molecules (DNA is much more sensitive)and the dramatic influences short strand RNA can have on genes gives scientists clues as to whether or not something other than a double helix could form. NASA funds this type of research. As for the Earth's seemingly perfect positon in relation to the sun, you have to realize that there are billions of galaxies out there each containing countless billions of stars! Further, there are life forms on this planet that do not require sunlight or oxygen to survive. In one of my Geology classes, we learned of bacteria found 1k deep that derived energy from basalt weathering. Microbilal life have been found in acid rich hot springs, alkalai rich soda lakes, and saturated salt beds. Microbial life has also been found at bottom of perennially ice covered lakes in the Antarctic. On the Discover channel, I saw several unique animals living around deep sea hydrothermal vents. I believe they lived on the sulfer being spewed out. I also remember that in one of my Biology texts there were spore forming bacteria found in the stomachs of a wasps trapped in 40 million year old amber. Life finds a way. I took an Animal behavior class and studied goal directed behaviors in many creatures. Animals do think, but not in the sense that humans do. People are often guilty of anthropomorphic comparisons. Apes and chimps who have been taught American Sign Language show the ability to create sentence structure, assign names, exhibit awareness of self, and even lie. They can use keyboards. They are capable of problem solving. An African Grey parrot (Alex) at the University of Arizona known for its ability to understand the meaning and association of words has been observed "teaching" a younger bird to pronounce words. We may be the dominant species on the planet, but we are not that disimilar from many other denizens. Perhaps the best explanation as to how humans rose to rule the planet is brain development and the manner by which information is passed on to succeding generations, in other words, written language. Massive amounts of information could be passed on without waiting for the slow process of random mutations and natural selection to code it into the DNA sequence. We humans transmit data through external, nonbiological means. I'm talking about the development of technology as a catalyst to evolutionary change. Some say that cloning and genetic engineering may well be the next step in human evolution. The problem I see with those who rely on the literal interpretation of the Bible to explain the nature of things or the belief that some benevolent extraterrestial spurned the growth of human civilizatons is that they are selling us short. Even St. Thomas Aquinus, perhaps the greatest philosophic mind in Catholicism, wrote that man should not worry about things above his head. Imagine that! Give credit where credit is due. The beginning of Genesis reads as though it is a humanist manifesto. It's brilliant in that it gives man carte blanche to do what he will. Man's march through history is both magnificent and tragic. Revel in it. We're a good story, damnit!
[This message has been edited by longtermgt (edited 05-11-2003).]
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09:04 PM
frontal lobe Member
Posts: 9042 From: brookfield,wisconsin Registered: Dec 1999
johnnyk, I know for sure I've stood up for rayb at times when he is being assaulted for his writing skills, and I THINK I've stood up for you before, but maybe I just thought I had and really didn't. But on the one thread you mention, no I didn't. So if your point is that I seem to "stick up" for people with whom I agree, that really isn't fair.
But I'll try to be more sensitive, because I really enjoy this forum and the diversity of people, and don't like people being picked on for their views (now if you are being picked on for rude behavior, you are on your own! )
please excuse me while i go flog myself!
