quote Originally posted by Uaana: Moore has publicly stated that this movie is to get Bush out of office.. so what is being presented might be a little one sided and biased.

I happen to think that sounds very patriotic. I'll certainly do my part.
We deserve better than Bush. And IMO, it dosn't take much to be better than Bush. Lots of good Americans, as well as most of the rest of the world seem to agree.
I'll bet Bush can't even spell Fiero!

quote Originally posted by Uaana: I'm worried about getting mugged if I disagree with the "Party Line".. sounds like a real tolerant buch.. http://www.klas-tv.com/Global/story.asp?S=1970759 BTW Stimpy.. Have you already forgotten Berg, Pearle, Johnson, Sun? Not critisizing your opinion, but maybe look into the fun and games Saddam and Son's were into, the dealings the French, Germans, and N Koreans had going with Saddam.. ect ect.. Look for both sides. Moore has publicly stated that this movie is to get Bush out of office.. so what is being presented might be a little one sided and biased.

That incident in Las Vegas sounds pretty disgusting. People get into fights over the stupidest stuff. Please don't assume because my politics might differ from yours that I would deem that behavior acceptable. I hope they find the guy who did it and lock him up.

Regarding those private citizens who have lost their lives over there at the hands of extremists, yes, I remember them. I think it's horrible that they have lost their lives. A particular scene in F9/11 registered well. A soldier was commenting that he makes $2000 a month to guard a Halliburton busdriver that makes $8-10,000 a month for drivng a 2 mile route every day. The individuals being kidnapped are private citizens profiting from war, and if they do not respect the immense risk that they are taking in being there, they are fools. Before you hurl rotten fruit at me for my comments, understand that my own father worked for United Defense in Saudi Arabia for about a year. Far before things got to this point, I would be begging my father to return.

Maybe my view is naive, but I would love to see every western contractor and western influence pull out of Saudi Arabia. I would like to see US firms divest themselves of any Saudi interest. And then I would love to see the corrupt kingdom of Sadi Arabia sink back into the stoneage because the Saudis have no understanding of how to work. Without western influence, Saudi would be another Afganistan in terms of development. However with Saudis having trillions of dollars invested in the US, that's never going to happen.

I'm curious, though. How many on this forum who feel that this is such a just and proper was are between the ages of 18 to 34? And do you serve in the military? If not, then why?

quote Originally posted by stimpy: That incident in Las Vegas sounds pretty disgusting. People get into fights over the stupidest stuff. Please don't assume because my politics might differ from yours that I would deem that behavior acceptable. I hope they find the guy who did it and lock him up. Regarding those private citizens who have lost their lives over there at the hands of extremists, yes, I remember them. I think it's horrible that they have lost their lives. A particular scene in F9/11 registered well. A soldier was commenting that he makes $2000 a month to guard a Halliburton busdriver that makes $8-10,000 a month for drivng a 2 mile route every day. The individuals being kidnapped are private citizens profiting from war, and if they do not respect the immense risk that they are taking in being there, they are fools. Before you hurl rotten fruit at me for my comments, understand that my own father worked for United Defense in Saudi Arabia for about a year. Far before things got to this point, I would be begging my father to return. Maybe my view is naive, but I would love to see every western contractor and western influence pull out of Saudi Arabia. I would like to see US firms divest themselves of any Saudi interest. And then I would love to see the corrupt kingdom of Sadi Arabia sink back into the stoneage because the Saudis have no understanding of how to work. Without western influence, Saudi would be another Afganistan in terms of development. However with Saudis having trillions of dollars invested in the US, that's never going to happen. I'm curious, though. How many on this forum who feel that this is such a just and proper was are between the ages of 18 to 34? And do you serve in the military? If not, then why?

It's a difference of opinion.. and you debate/reply in kind.. That I respect.
As for your question - 35, Served 5 yrs USMC. Med discharge.

quote Originally posted by Uaana: As for your question - 35, Served 5 yrs USMC. Med discharge.

And to you, much respect for your service. Thank you.

quote Originally posted by stimpy: It's interesting to see in a thread titled "Anbody seen Farenheit 9/11?" the multiple postings from people who hate Micheal Moore, who haven't seen the film, and declare that they won't see the film. I just returned from seeing the film and believe me, this is no comedy. Yes, much information is subject to interpretation, but the images that are presented are what hit me in the gut. Images of Iraqis blown to bits, images of wounded soldier, charred bodies in the streets. Nothing funny about that. I left the theater, not smugly guffawing about Bush's hillbilly affectations, but soberly wondering what possible humanitarian interest is being served by our occupation of another country. We are not fighting terrorists so much as breeding terrorists. Don't believe what Mr. Moore has to present? Then watch the news. How can anyone think that we are winning the "hearts and minds" of the Iraqis, or of anyone in the Muslim world?

The, "comedy" statement was in reference to the semantics that were brought up as to the type of film this is. I don't care if people think this is a documentary or what, it's a movie revealing an opinion.

"A vote for Bush is, above anything else, a fundemental defect in one's moral makeup."

Do you have a point that is more moot?

I saw the movie Friday night(opening night around here). It was as I exepcted. A little light on information compared to his later books, but it was informative, albeit biased - but that's to be expected.

What shocked me the most was not the movie, but the audience. It was all people in my age bracket - early 20's. When the movie got out I noticed 90% were people in their eraly 20's, were smokers, body jewelry/piercings, kinda baggy clothes. It was neat to see young people with a political opinion. And yes, they seemed openly opinionated during the movie.

My favorite part was the final quote of Bush during a speech: "there's an old saying in texas, fool me once, and....*looks to his telepromter person with a confused look*...shame on you...*confused face again*...you can't fool me a second time." He wasn't joking.

Reuters News says:
Farenheit 9/11 No. 1 Hit across America.
Grossed 21.96 million this weekend breaking the previous record for a documentary of "Bowling for Columbine" which only made 20 million over entire run.
Primary audiance 24 to 35
15 city exit poll said 92 % rated it excellent with 94 % recomending the movie.

I'll be interested to see what it does for Bush's poll numbers.

Was the film only preaching to the choir or will independent voters see it and be effected?

I dont need to pay $8+ to get some bozos opinion of the president- If moore has anything of substance to say, Im sure he can summarize it in two paragraphs or less

and from what the reviews are saying, the movie is a crock

I'll give my $8 to someone more deserving

BTW - I think the statement that this movie will make the most of all documentary films is not technically correct

Spinal Tap probabally made more $$$ - and contained far more truth.

[This message has been edited by Ken Wittlief (edited 06-27-2004).]

I'm 24 and I feel the war has "some" merit. No I am not in the military...medically could not enlist even if I had tried...however I do have close relatives in the military, nearly half a dozen, spread throught the branches and they are in the same age group (save one) and do not disagree with the war. Saddam was a time bomb, if he wasn't going to go Hitler on us now, he would have eventually. However I also think the Saud Family is gearing up for no good.

My biggest gripe about this movie is the advertising that Moore does clearly violates the FEC standards for political campaigns. Those standards are set for a reason, and he is clearly violating them. Now I am not even a Bush supporter. I am a moderate who feels that while not everyone, including myself at times, agrees with him, he is the President of our country and at least, until he is out of office, he deserves to be treated with some respect. The same type of respect you gave your friends parents when you were a kid or your teachers etc. That is the problem with this country today. Everyone lacks respect for everything and everyone and feels they are "entitled" to something. I see it with my students everyday. They are "entitled" to pass my class because they are "special" and because no one in the past failed them for laziness (not completing assigned work) then I certainly I shouldn't. What most people don't think about is that Bush alone has not authorized this war. Bush had to get congressional approval for any military conflict lasting longer than 20 days due to the War Powers Resolution Act of 1972 (which Nixon unsuccessfully tried to veto). Also any war declaration is made by Congress and NOT the President. So for anyone who has a problem with Bush or any other President, should definitely be sure to become informed not only about the Presidential elections but the congressional elections as well.

Moore feels he was "entitled" to make this movie and "help" people see his opinion part of which (if anything like Bowling...) includes some stretched truths, of course in an election year. As I previously stated, I feel his advertising tactics are a bit wrong. I will probably see the movie...but I refuse to pay theatre prices and add to his "take". I'll wait until I get it on netflix and make my own judgement then.

Bush disadvantaged? Ha,that's a joke
A blind man is disadvantaged, but I don't want him driving me around.
Hopefully he will see the writing on the wall, and it will say "Adios!"

quote Originally posted by Ken Wittlief: its well documented that Pres Bush has some sort of learning disabilty, dislexia or something like that

This is actually the first I've heard of it. Although I pay little attention to the news..

I also hope that each and everyone of you vote (and not necessarily because I want Kerry to win...but complaints without actions are hollow complaints!

Even if you go and vote for neither, you are still showing an active participation in democracy!

(Sorry that was the Government teacher in me preaching!)

Jen

quote Originally posted by Ken Wittlief: I dont need to pay $8+ to get some bozos opinion of the president- If moore has anything of substance to say, Im sure he can summarize it in two paragraphs or less and from what the reviews are saying, the movie is a crock I'll give my $8 to someone more deserving BTW - I think the statement that this movie will make the most of all documentary films is not technically correct Spinal Tap probabally made more $$$ - and contained far more truth.

"and from what the reviews are saying, the movie is a crock"

Christian reviews?

How about a new rule? You only get to offer an opinion on it if you have actually seen it.

I haven't seen it yet, but I will. I am going to refain from commenting on it until I do.

Posting your opinion on it based only on what you have seen in the media is just stupid. The pro bush will use any media slanted to their views to say it's bogus. The anti Bush will do the same to say it's fully factual.

Go see it and post your own personal opinion. If you refuse to see it just because it flys in the face of what you believe, you really got no right to discredit. Discredit or accept based on your own perception, not somebody else's.

quote Originally posted by Ken Wittlief: well thats par for the course. its well documented that Pres Bush has some sort of learning disabilty, dislexia or something like that so making fun of someone with a disability is a political statment now and acceptable brunt of jokes whats next - more retard/internet agrument jokes? I thought the democrates where the ones who were suppose to stand up for people with disadvantages? or is that only if they use them as a crutch for the rest of their lives and live on welfare? if you actally overcome your handicap and acheive something like, oh say, becoming president of the US, then its ok to make fun of their reading disability? if your ability to speak clearly is an indication of your intelligence, then I guess Steven Hawkins must be a retard!

Do you think Bush has learning disabilities? If so, why does he cut benefits for welfare and other disadvantaged people? Is it just that he's plain stupid, or do we need to make him a candidate for a disability? Do we really want a president that isn't of full capacity?

Ooops.

[This message has been edited by 87GTSleeper (edited 06-27-2004).]

quote Originally posted by Uaana: BTW for those who are just passing by and like fun reads.. http://www.modernwarrior.com/celebsVwar.htm

and what did your smart guys do on 9-11???
read this for an account of that day
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline/main/essayaninterestingday.html

------------------
Question wonder and be wierd
are you kind?

quote Originally posted by I'm Back: Do you think Bush has learning disabilities? If so, why does he cut benefits for welfare and other disadvantaged people? Is it just that he's plain stupid, or do we need to make him a candidate for a disability? Do we really want a president that isn't of full capacity?

Wait he's "entitled" to try! :-)

quote Originally posted by Fierochic88: Wait he's "entitled" to try! :-)

Sorry, not picking on you Fierochic you're just last in line and have to side with your union..

But pretty sure it was in this thread where someone pointed out how he flubbed while reading off a teleprompter.. Anyone ever read aloud in front of a group from a teleprompter or note cards and lose your place? Now try doing it 100 times a yr +. When you have done so without a single mistake or flub then feel free to start casting stones.

As for Ray.. Darn.. keep forgetting the Leader of the free world is supposed to jump up in a panic, and fly directly back into the target area of terrorist attacks. But who knows maybe we could have gotten luck and had most of the senior staff and both houses taken out and been left with Condi in charge..

In the end, is it so bad to get people talking? I don't think he cares what you think of him, his movies or his hair. I think he wants people to talk about it. Talk about the issues. At least if you are shooting down every single point in his movie you are thinking on your own. You are making decisions based on new information.

I loved Bowling for Columbine, because I loved what he said about the gun culture. I look forward to F9/11.

quote Originally posted by Gridlock: In the end, is it so bad to get people talking? I don't think he cares what you think of him, his movies or his hair. I think he wants people to talk about it. Talk about the issues. At least if you are shooting down every single point in his movie you are thinking on your own. You are making decisions based on new information.

That's a very good point..

F911 was great. I highly recommend it to those who do not wish to see it and are hard-core republicans - if for no other reason than to just see/hear an opposing point of view.

I was against the Iraq war in the beginning - the sovereign nation of Iraq did nothing to warrant an unprovoked attack from the US.

1) no weapons of mass destruction
2) no nuclear weapons
3) no ties to 9/11

This war is about greed, and haliburton, bush-cheney, and oil. I fully support America, but not the America as led under this current administration. Bush is hated the world over, and is the greatest divider of all times - even we are divided on this Fiero forum. We need a middle-of-the-road president who will invest in education, social welfare, and the middle class. 4 more years of Bush will ruin this great country - his actions have encouraged more terrorist actions, and I definitely do not feel any safer now. I'd rather have a team of UN inspectors running around Iraq, than this US/Britain (non-coalition) war.

But I really don't care, Bush is in office for a reason - and God is in control.

quote Originally posted by Uaana: Sorry, not picking on you Fierochic you're just last in line and have to side with your union.. But pretty sure it was in this thread where someone pointed out how he flubbed while reading off a teleprompter.. Anyone ever read aloud in front of a group from a teleprompter or note cards and lose your place? Now try doing it 100 times a yr +. When you have done so without a single mistake or flub then feel free to start casting stones. As for Ray.. Darn.. keep forgetting the Leader of the free world is supposed to jump up in a panic, and fly directly back into the target area of terrorist attacks. But who knows maybe we could have gotten luck and had most of the senior staff and both houses taken out and been left with Condi in charge..

BuSh flubs are way more then a single misread , more like a repeating patern

and his real, instant reaction to 9-11 was to be stunned
and after a prolonged period of shock and inaction
to run away in a pannick and hide
now there is real leadership in action

BTW F9-11 is #1 movie in the USA over the weekend
and the top gross for a documentry for ALL TIME

------------------
Question wonder and be wierd
are you kind?

Moore has already had his intended effect here: he's gotten people to talk.
The fact that he's gotten people out the door in the summer on a weekend, to see a DOCUMENTARY, as opposed to the drivel that is, say, Shrek,
is amazing. Amazing.

Most of the film was told in footage, not in Moore's laconic narration. The footage shown was such as we were NEVER shown on the news stations. Stations owned by so few megacorporations that are so enmeshed with and influenced by the power brokers that there can be no objective presentation of the news. Moore points this out in the teaser preceding the film.
When you watch for 5 minutes straight, the immediacy of an Iraqi mother's grief at having 2 civilian family members killed in the Baghdad bombings, and watch her hysterical with grief and anger plead to us for justification for that, and to god for justification for that, and for victory, vindication, and vengeance against the invaders,
that's not lies. not spin. not quotes taken out of context. not smart-alecky narration. not thought-manipulative editing. raw, naked reality, purposefully withheld from mainstream coverage of the 'war.'

Incidentally,
Fahrenheit 9-11 is NOT subject to FEC restrictions, any more than any other film is. Or a late-night sketch comedy show. Or a newspaper opinion piece.
Why is that, Alison?
Because you pay to see it.

quote Originally posted by Uaana: BTW for those who are just passing by and like fun reads.. http://www.modernwarrior.com/celebsVwar.htm

Interesting read.

Looks to me like a bunch of well educated people in their respective fields of endeavor have decided to voice their opinions on war.

However one group MAKES policy and the other DISAGREES with it.

Looks like the system is working just fine, I wonder who will win the argument or how many more need to die before a compromise has been reached.

[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 06-28-2004).]

quote Originally posted by Kelvin Vivian: F911 was great. I highly recommend it to those who do not wish to see it and are hard-core republicans - if for no other reason than to just see/hear an opposing point of view. I was against the Iraq war in the beginning - the sovereign nation of Iraq did nothing to warrant an unprovoked attack from the US. 1) no weapons of mass destruction 2) no nuclear weapons 3) no ties to 9/11 This war is about greed, and haliburton, bush-cheney, and oil. I fully support America, but not the America as led under this current administration. Bush is hated the world over, and is the greatest divider of all times - even we are divided on this Fiero forum. We need a middle-of-the-road president who will invest in education, social welfare, and the middle class. 4 more years of Bush will ruin this great country - his actions have encouraged more terrorist actions, and I definitely do not feel any safer now. I'd rather have a team of UN inspectors running around Iraq, than this US/Britain (non-coalition) war. But I really don't care, Bush is in office for a reason - and God is in control.

I beg your pardon, but Bush is the greatest divider? It's not Republicans who compare our military to stormtroopers and our president to Hitler. It's not Republicans who march the streets with hateful signs. It's not Republicans who damage people's property and bang on official's home windows. It's not Republicans who get in bed with terrorist, socialist and communist organizations. It's not Republicans that carry signs at marches saying "Death to Israel". It's not Republicans that legislate from the judicial bench, despite the wishes of the people.

In the three years pror to 9-11, American's were attacked numerous times at home and abroad by terrorists. Since 9-11, the best the terrorists have been able to pull off is beheadings of a few individual civilians, on forign soil. You might not [i]feel[/] safer but you are.

Nobody ever said we were going to war in Iraq because of nukes or ties to 9-11. It simply was never said. As far as the WMD issue, every major world leader, including Democrats here at home, has stated on the record that Iraq had active WMD programs. Iraq was in material breach of several U.N. resoloutions. Iraq did allow safe-haven to terrorists we were fighting in Afghanistan. Numerous terrorist training camps have been found in Iraq. Even Putin admitted that he gave intelligence evidence to the U.S. of an impending terrorist attack by Iraq.

Nowhere in the constitution does it say that our president is to provide "social-welfare", or education. It does however say that he should provide for the national defense. We are at war. Our enemies have known this much longer than us. I am middle class. I got a tax cut this year. I don't get your point on that one.

If you think this war is about Haliburton or oil, I really feel sorry for you. I really do.

quote Originally posted by I'm Back: Do you think Bush has learning disabilities? If so, why does he cut benefits for welfare and other disadvantaged people? Is it just that he's plain stupid, or do we need to make him a candidate for a disability? Do we really want a president that isn't of full capacity?

Was this a threat against the President of the United States? If it is, I am sure the Secret Service would like to ask you a few questions.

quote Originally posted by ray b: and what did your smart guys do on 9-11??? read this for an account of that day http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline/main/essayaninterestingday.html

I was helping the Military Police on Ft.Riley (kansas) gaurd the Grant Avenue gate and assistance them with their Military duties. The M.P.s were shothanded, so I got out of my car, (I am USAF and was in uniform) and assisted them with car inspections and vehicle passes, until they had enough manpower on that gate.
S.Williams
EDIT cant spell this morning...
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1988 Fiero Formula T-tops
CJB 143 of 1252 "factory T-top cars"

[This message has been edited by htexans1 (edited 06-28-2004).]

quote Originally posted by 87GTSleeper: Nowhere in the constitution does it say that our president is to provide "social-welfare", or education. It does however say that he should provide for the national defense. We are at war. Our enemies have known this much longer than us. I am middle class. I got a tax cut this year. I don't get your point on that one. If you think this war is about Haliburton or oil, I really feel sorry for you. I really do.

quote Constitution of the United States of America We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

quote Amendment IV The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

I may be going out on a limb with this but from what I can assertain that includes protection from... death and destruction? Secure from Albeit terrorist attack or unlawfull warrant. Just a guess, I'm not very well educated and I may be reading into the US Constitution..

I think more education on how American government works is in order, I will gladly provide it to you and all you need to do is pay attention and "think". Homework may help too but it's optional, just don't try so hard at being a well trained parrot that can recite your masters hot air from memory.

Think and be independant or at the very least don't say anything unless it is something not already thought of.

Wanna cracker?

Here ya go polly...

Poor Irais don't stand a chance because OUR rights are "inalienable" which means in short "not transferable" to anyone. However by oppressing another nation we subject ourselves... rather the US Government subjects it's citizens to terrorism by foreiganrs hell bent on changing US policy.

So... who's welfare is in jeaprody? The US government has enacted a MIRIAD of laws to protect (politicians, the president, cabinet members, etc.) itself BUT not the general populace who ultimately will die in a terror attack on "soft targets".

So whose welfare is the government looking out for?
Who was once president and CEO of Haliburton and will make BOOKOO bucks in retirement for himself and all his school chumms?
Who will benefit from increased oil proffits as a result of this war?

Not a single commoner I can garentee you!

[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 06-28-2004).]

quote Originally posted by wkayl: Was this a threat against the President of the United States? If it is, I am sure the Secret Service would like to ask you a few questions.

Get a clue. Of course with the breadth of laws today I guess anything can be interpreted as anything else. How does any of this seem like a threat?

“Do you think Bush has learning disabilities? If so, why does he cut benefits for welfare and other disadvantaged people? Is it just that he's plain stupid, or do we need to make him a candidate for a disability? Do we really want a president that isn't of full capacity?”

What part of that is a threat? You’re a joke if you’re serious; you're ambiguous if you meant it as a joke.

[This message has been edited by I'm Back (edited 06-28-2004).]

The post 9/11 comprehensive, all inclusive step by step guide to becomming a terrorist.
Available in mutil lingual fromat.

English.
1.When in public repeat the following line in a loud threating voice. "I'm going to kill you!!"

German.
1.

French.
1. Oui?

Russian
1.

Spanish
1.

Italian
1.

84Bill
1. I have a question.

I almost forgot two very important languages.

Arabic
1.

Korean
1. Nukler

[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 06-28-2004).]

quote Originally posted by 87GTSleeper:

"I beg your pardon, but Bush is the greatest divider?"

He is known as a divided, especially when he is compared to Reagan.

"It's not Republicans who compare our military to stormtroopers and our president to Hitler."

However it was a 5-4 Republican-appointed decision to require the people to, "show their papers" when required by a cop.

"It's not Republicans who march the streets with hateful signs."

However it is Republicans that block abortion clinics and sometimes kill abortion doctors. Also, it is the Republicans that initiate legislation to stop gays from marrying.

"It's not Republicans who get in bed with terrorist, socialist and communist organizations."

Explain this one with cites.

"It's not Republicans that carry signs at marches saying "Death to Israel"."

Right, it is them that proliferate the protection of Israel at the cost of American lives and dollars for the love of Jebus.

"It's not Republicans that legislate from the judicial bench, despite the wishes of the people."

Uh, what? I believe there are 6 or 7 of the 9 US Sup Ct justices are Bush/Reagan appointees. That is the highest court in the land that acts as ultimate rewriter of legislation.

"In the three years pror to 9-11, American's were attacked numerous times at home and abroad by terrorists. Since 9-11, the best the terrorists have been able to pull off is beheadings of a few individual civilians, on forign soil. You might not [i]feel[/] safer but you are."

I recently read an article that stated the worst year for terrorist acts was 2003. They went strictly by raw number and didn't factor in number of deaths. Also, it was for the world rather than just the US. Point is, the Terrorists haven't scurried away, they're fired up.

"Nobody ever said we were going to war in Iraq because of nukes or ties to 9-11. It simply was never said. As far as the WMD issue, every major world leader, including Democrats here at home, has stated on the record that Iraq had active WMD programs."

Uh huh. The Dems were like I was directly after 9/11 with the emotion of it all. The Patriot Act passed 98-1. The PA mainly included temporary measures that are now under attack and the Dems are looking at voting it out now that the emotion of 9/11 is over. So Iraq, so clumsy that they cannot even get 1 fighter off the ground has WMD's, but we cannot find them? OK.

"Iraq was in material breach of several U.N. resoloutions."

Not at the end, they allowed inspectors in.

"Iraq did allow safe-haven to terrorists we were fighting in Afghanistan. Numerous terrorist training camps have been found in Iraq. Even Putin admitted that he gave intelligence evidence to the U.S. of an impending terrorist attack by Iraq."

First you hate the Ruskies and now you love and believe them.....I though Kerry was the waffler? I guess if they say something you like, you switch sides for the moment.

"Nowhere in the constitution does it say that our president is to provide "social-welfare", or education."

It also does not state the word, "privacy" but there are privacy protections, or at least before the Patriot Act there were. The Constitution is not the only document designed to run the country. Furthermore, it is very vague and intended for interpretation.

"It does however say that he should provide for the national defense. We are at war. Our enemies have known this much longer than us."

We are at war as a unilateral result of our leader's ignorance. Kind of like Viet Nam, but we should have learned by now.

"I am middle class. I got a tax cut this year. I don't get your point on that one."

All that matters is you and your tax cut. The woman with 4 children doesn't matter. The middle class (or the fool that thinks he is) white male is all that matters, right? There are many demographics of many different people in America, and the needs of all of them matter.

"If you think this war is about Haliburton or oil, I really feel sorry for you. I really do."

The war is about oil, religion, hate, fear, and many other attributes. Ultimately, the US agenda is to ensure the lifestyles of the American elites is maintained.

quote Originally posted by Uaana: Sorry, not picking on you Fierochic you're just last in line and have to side with your union.. But pretty sure it was in this thread where someone pointed out how he flubbed while reading off a teleprompter.. Anyone ever read aloud in front of a group from a teleprompter or note cards and lose your place? Now try doing it 100 times a yr +. When you have done so without a single mistake or flub then feel free to start casting stones. As for Ray.. Darn.. keep forgetting the Leader of the free world is supposed to jump up in a panic, and fly directly back into the target area of terrorist attacks. But who knows maybe we could have gotten luck and had most of the senior staff and both houses taken out and been left with Condi in charge..

Oh no I get nervous speaking in public and would probably flub too. I was just saying that if you go by the same theory that most liberals in my area use...everyone is entitled to try and to stop them from doing so would be discrimination. In my line of work (teaching) the latest craze is to take any kid who is too lazy to try and label them special ed. and unfortunately some of those teachers do the work for the kids and give them answers because the school district catches royal h*ll if those kids fail under No Child Left Behind. And the response is always "well they are entitled to it." which aggravates me. It gives the kids who really do need the assistance a bad rap.

Jen

quote Originally posted by ray b: BTW F9-11 is #1 movie in the USA over the weekend and the top gross for a documentry for ALL TIME

Actually, JFK grossed $205 million, so Fahrenheit 9-11 has a ways to go. That was as much documentary as anything Michael Moore has done lately.

quote Originally posted by Fierochic88: In my line of work (teaching) the latest craze is to take any kid who is too lazy to try and label them special ed.

That's so the School District can get federal funds.

In my sons case the District got the funds but forgot to schedule his classes for it. He was supposed to have 1/2 day "special ed" and 1/2 day "main stream" He has been 100% main streamed since the beginning of the last school year YET is still listed as partial "special ed" for funding purposes.

He did good though and graduated to the next grade despite having serious ADD problems.

I wonder how they will continue to get funding after he has been successfully "main streamed"?

[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 06-28-2004).]