quote Originally posted by doublec4: I'm not saying anybody is trying to eliminate Christianity. I'm wondering why everybody gets so worked up over the reference to "God" in a nation's anthem, or documents, or money. I'm not a backwards person, I know times change but sometimes I think this is getting to the point where its ridiculous. My point is that the elimination of the Pledge of Allegiance may be another step to weakening the patriotism of your country. It may not seem like a big deal right now, but things add up and over time it all takes its toll. One thing I admire about the USA is the patriotism of its people, and I'd hate to see it fade.

man if you think that the pledge of allegiance is weaking our country then you need to take a look around. the blunder years, i mean Bush years have divided this country so deeply that it may never be the same. patriotism does not start in the classroom or football games or boyscout camp. it starts with parents teaching their children to take pride in themselves, their towns, states and country. parents aren't doing that because they are too worried about paying the utitlites or a dirty bomb going off over their city. its becoming increasingly harder to be proud of something that you don't agree with. i hope our next president can mend these wounds.

quote Originally posted by sostock: well you got me there. what's a functional family?

I'm not sure. I don't think I've ever seen one,which is why I felt confident in posting that little statement...

quote Originally posted by doublec4: Ah I see... Still, I think its harmless. Also, why does the word 'God' immediately imply a Christian belief? Other religions have gods under specific names. "God" can just be a general reference to the higher power of whatever you believe in.

well define 'harmless'.. of course it's 'harmless', but why should they have to say it if they don't believe in it. Frankly, I find it demeaning and depressing when people thank god for everything they have. I have to walk away from the table if people are saying grace.. But thats just me (and many others, apparently)..

quote Originally posted by sostock: ... the blunder years, i mean Bush years have divided this country so deeply that it may never be the same.

It seems to me that the blame really lies mor ewith the democrats like Kennedy who are still trying to get even with the Replicans for the Clinton episodes... Though I will admit that he (or his father for that matter) doesn't even come close to the ability that Regan had. The more I thing of it, you do have a point, but I don't think that the fault lies entirely with Bush.

quote Originally posted by doublec4: I'm not saying anybody is trying to eliminate Christianity. I'm wondering why everybody gets so worked up over the reference to "God" in a nation's anthem, or documents, or money. I'm not a backwards person, I know times change but sometimes I think this is getting to the point where its ridiculous. My point is that the elimination of the Pledge of Allegiance may be another step to weakening the patriotism of your country. It may not seem like a big deal right now, but things add up and over time it all takes its toll. One thing I admire about the USA is the patriotism of its people, and I'd hate to see it fade.

You seem to be making it a choice between the 1954 version of the 1892 Pledge of Allegience or no pledge at all. The court would have no problem whatsoever with the pre-Communist era pledge, the one that was around for 62 years before Congress mucked around with it for political/ideological purposes. Hey, the new Pledge has only been around for 51 years, less than the original.

If you have people being told they have to Pledge their allegience to a country under a god they don't believe in, how does that bolster patriotism? I think it doesn't, because that one 1954 phrase undermines the whole pledge for anyone who doesn't believe in a god, or the Christian God of Eisenhower. I would contend that a non-religious Pledge holds more true to the spirits and ideals of an America where people are free to follow whatever religion they see fit, even if that's no religion at all. The pre-Communist witch hunt pledge more accurately reflects this country's values, and more accurately reflects the original author's intent.

JazzMan

just for the record when ted kennedy comes on the tv i just change the channel. i'd rather listen to Bush then Kennedy. at least Bush is entertaining, Kennedy is just nuts.

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: You seem to be making it a choice between the 1954 version of the 1892 Pledge of Allegience or no pledge at all. The court would have no problem whatsoever with the pre-Communist era pledge, the one that was around for 62 years before Congress mucked around with it for political/ideological purposes. Hey, the new Pledge has only been around for 51 years, less than the original. If you have people being told they have to Pledge their allegience to a country under a god they don't believe in, how does that bolster patriotism? I think it doesn't, because that one 1954 phrase undermines the whole pledge for anyone who doesn't believe in a god, or the Christian God of Eisenhower. I would contend that a non-religious Pledge holds more true to the spirits and ideals of an America where people are free to follow whatever religion they see fit, even if that's no religion at all. The pre-Communist witch hunt pledge more accurately reflects this country's values, and more accurately reflects the original author's intent. JazzMan

That makes sense.

If you guys don't mind, I'd like to add this question to the discussion: is it really important that kids say the pledge every day in school (in whatever form, "God" or no)?

quote Originally posted by JohnnyK: I have to walk away from the table if people are saying grace..

That's a bit much. What's the big deal with having to stare at the floor for half a minute or so?

No matter what your religious beliefs, is it so bad to be thankful for what we have?

i always thought it was the dumbest thing in the world to have to take time out of class and say the pledge... it was a waste of time in school... if you really wanted to say anything baout it you could do it at home or on the way in or whatever....

I just remembered that when I was in elementary school waaaaay back in the early 60's, we had to listen to "God Save the Queen" over the school's PA system every morning. Yes, this was in Canada! What the hell did we care about some woman with a crown whose family has sponged off the Brits for generations?

quote Originally posted by F-I-E-R-O: BTW, thank you for posting these links. I'm ashamed to say that this was the first time I actually sat down and read through both documents. It did help a great deal the it was in a different font than originally written!

And I forgot about the "and of Nature's God entitle them" part.... sheesh

I feel the damage of a led pledge with god in it is that it seperates and points out those with minority beliefs. Children are cruel, having been raised in a minority religon I had enough trouble having "killed Jesus". For atheists and polytheistic believers that don't want to pledge under what is obviously the Judeo-christian god, they can either blend in and say the words or sit there as outsiders that WILL be picked on/beat up/discriminated against later. You can't imagine how much trouble I had with dietary restrictions trying to just avoid pork and mixing meat and dairy at school. Being told I had to have a milk with meat dishes, having no meals available that didn't have meat and cheese mixed or only having pork hotdogs available. Even ran into the same thing in the military, I wasn't asking for a kosher meal with rabbinical supervision, just stop trying to make me eat pork. Ask for something else and suddenly your being questioned or told it won't hurt you. Military meals where you get what they give you in the feild and you find out that most of your entrees are forbidden foods. There are extremes you can go to whining about it or skip those meals, or bring your own to the field. I did a lot of that with ramen and the jars of pb+j with loaves of bread.

bravo to you Scott-Wa. its all perspective. until you have been the subject of ridicule you don't know what its like being a minority. i'm not trying to get on a woe-is-me tangent here, however. i was raised as an athiest in a small town, i have been picked on, called names, accused of being a satan ist (never could figure out how i could believe in satan and not god) etc.
i understand that people have all sorts of different beliefs and i would never try to stop someone from practicing theirs. but don't step on mine.
and as for those who say, "just don't say 'under god" if you don't want to; how aboout this. go to the closest church to your house and start worshipping there. what? they don't have the same beliefs as you? just don't say that prayer or believe what they think. its that easy right? just ignore it. doesn't sound right does it?

If you're in my home, and I or my family are giving thanks for being blessed, and you get up and walk away from the table, then Johnny, my friend, you just keep right on walking. Out the door of the house, off the yard and onto the road. And I'd suggest doing it quickly.

You show a marked lack of tolerance for anyone's beliefs other than your own.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by JohnnyK: well define 'harmless'.. of course it's 'harmless', but why should they have to say it if they don't believe in it. Frankly, I find it demeaning and depressing when people thank god for everything they have. I have to walk away from the table if people are saying grace.. But thats just me (and many others, apparently)..

quote Originally posted by doublec4: Ah I see... Still, I think its harmless. Also, why does the word 'God' immediately imply a Christian belief? Other religions have gods under specific names. "God" can just be a general reference to the higher power of whatever you believe in.

I may not necessarily imply a Christian belief, but it does imply a monotheistic belief. What about polytheists? What about athiest and agnostics. I agree that it's harmless, and I don't really care if they remove it or not. I'm just trying to look at the issue solely from the letter of the law and not from my personal religious or spiritual point of view.

quote Originally posted by MDFierolvr: Here here. I wonder how many atheists fought in the revolutionary war? I mean now are they going to be modifying the constitution and the decleration of Independance because it says god? .

MY FAMILY fought in the revolutionary war, on both sides!!! and were atheists
many of the founding fathers were deist not christian Washington Jefferson and Franklen to name a few

the original Pledge of Allegiance has NOTHING to do with GOD it was added at a much later date 1954 vs 1880

this ruling only changes the ADDED WORDS, not the original pledge

I have no desire to live in a nation UNDER GOD esp your crazy christian god who can't deside if he is one god or three
and is very sexualy hungup and plans to kill everyone as he has in the past according to your bible
IN FACT our nation would be far better off without your god or anyone elses gods

and our founding fathers sure thought so, they wanted NO STATE CHURCH, and said so

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Question wonder and be wierd
are you kind?

quote Originally posted by jstricker: If you're in my home, and I or my family are giving thanks for being blessed, and you get up and walk away from the table, then Johnny, my friend, you just keep right on walking. Out the door of the house, off the yard and onto the road. And I'd suggest doing it quickly. You show a marked lack of tolerance for anyone's beliefs other than your own. John Stricker

Bravo!

Sometimes, people can take their convictions too far. Obviously, he doesn't respect others anywhere near the level of respect that he demands for himself.

Ray,

Wrong again. From the Yahoo (AP) article:

"SAN FRANCISCO - A federal judge declared the reciting of the Pledge of Allegiance in public schools unconstitutional Wednesday, a decision that could put the divisive issue on track for another round of Supreme Court arguments.

Karlton, ruling in Sacramento, said he would sign a restraining order preventing the recitation of the pledge at the Elk Grove Unified, Rio Linda and Elverta Joint Elementary school districts in Sacramento County, where the plaintiffs' children attend."

I don't see in the ruling where he said those words were unconstitutional, but that the entire pledge was unconstitutional.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by ray b: this ruling only changes the ADDED WORDS, not the original pledge

quote Originally posted by jstricker: Ray, Wrong again. From the Yahoo (AP) article: "SAN FRANCISCO - A federal judge declared the reciting of the Pledge of Allegiance in public schools unconstitutional Wednesday, a decision that could put the divisive issue on track for another round of Supreme Court arguments. Karlton, ruling in Sacramento, said he would sign a restraining order preventing the recitation of the pledge at the Elk Grove Unified, Rio Linda and Elverta Joint Elementary school districts in Sacramento County, where the plaintiffs' children attend." I don't see in the ruling where he said those words were unconstitutional, but that the entire pledge was unconstitutional. John Stricker

third paragraph of your link said

"U.S. District Judge Lawrence Karlton ruled that the pledge's reference to one nation "under God" violates school children's right to be "free from a coercive requirement to affirm God." "

or the ADDED WORDS are the problem as I said
you may want to actualy READ your own LINKS

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Question wonder and be wierd
are you kind?

quote Originally posted by Patrick: What's the big deal with having to stare at the floor for half a minute or so? No matter what your religious beliefs, is it so bad to be thankful for what we have?

Too bad it's so hard to be thankful without having to bow before some specific deity. As imperfect as it may be, I love my country, I have pride, and I respect those that gave the ultimate sacrifice protecting what they felt was "right". That doesn't mean I blindly think everthing we do is ok 100% of the time, or we have the guy upstair's approval. If you don't like it, that's ok too. If you don't stand for the pledge, so be it. You have that right...but expect others to yell at ya.

Of course, when I say the pledge, I am not feeling proud of everything that the US has done throughout its history. But I do stand for the ideas the pledge represents. I don't believe in "God", but I still capitalize the "H" if I am referring to Jesus as a pronoun. ("He"). I don't think it's too much to ask to be respectful during that one moment, just as I am when in a house of worship (whatever type it is) or standing silent during another nation's anthem. I will respect what others find important, but I'd also kinda like the same thing. That's too much to expect nowerdays...

I don't think people by nature respect each other. It's not automatic. It's learned as ya grow up, usually in the home. (I know, that's obvious) It's hard to "unlearn" what you learn as a child. Heck, that's why there are so many brain doctors and medications...

We have SUCH potential as a species. At times, we achieve incredible things...wish we didn't spend so much time killin' each other.

[This message has been edited by FieroRumor (edited 09-15-2005).]

quote Originally posted by Patrick: That's a bit much. What's the big deal with having to stare at the floor for half a minute or so? No matter what your religious beliefs, is it so bad to be thankful for what we have?

Would you feel the same way if the Pledge read "One Nation under Satan" or "under Allah", or perhaps "under Hitler" or even "under George W. Bush" ?

If you found any of them distasteful, you could just bite your tongue and be grateful, right?

Ray,

AGAIN:

""SAN FRANCISCO - A federal judge declared the reciting of the Pledge of Allegiance in public schools unconstitutional Wednesday, a decision that could put the divisive issue on track for another round of Supreme Court arguments."

The words may be the problem, but the judge has thrown out the baby with the bathwater.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by ray b: third paragraph of your link said "U.S. District Judge Lawrence Karlton ruled that the pledge's reference to one nation "under God" violates school children's right to be "free from a coercive requirement to affirm God." " or the ADDED WORDS are the problem as I said you may want to actualy READ your own LINKS

United States of America = Soddom and Gomorrah

I think we should keep the pledge but just remove the words. Isn't it possible to be patriotic and to have a patriotic phrase said every day without the acknowlegement of some religion?

I also think the money should be changed. The printing machines and minting machines for coins would have to change their "molds" or whatever they use, but it wouldn't be more difficult than the state quarters thing being done and the change in design to our paper money a few years ago. We would just have to slowly phase out the old money like we already do.

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I am the signature virus, please put me in your signature so I can spread

quote Originally posted by jstricker: If you're in my home, and I or my family are giving thanks for being blessed, and you get up and walk away from the table, then Johnny, my friend, you just keep right on walking. Out the door of the house, off the yard and onto the road. And I'd suggest doing it quickly. You show a marked lack of tolerance for anyone's beliefs other than your own. John Stricker

Thats fantastic.. But you don't seem like a particularly friendly man in the first place, so I doubt I'd be having dinner at your house anyways.. But anyways.. Hey, sometimes I just kick back while they are saying grace, but I will not bow my head.. Thats lack of tolerance, because I won't pray? No, thats not praying.. I don't STOP anyone from praying, but I won't do it. Apparently you're the one with the lack of tolerance for my beliefs, n'est pas? I have to pray in your home?

Has anyone actually asked their kids or someone elses what they honestly think? I recited the Pledge every morning in school all the way through 8th grade, and at no point did I ever care whether it was said or not. In fact, I was usually happy we said it cause it was that much more time we didn't have to spend learning anything, especially in middle school when we had class periods that were only an hour, hour and a half long or so anyway. Actually, I started to dislike it in 8th grade, cause I had woodshop 2nd period and it was cutting into my class time.

So I challenge every one of you: Go ask your kids, your neighbors kids, whoever's kids if they honestly care whether or not they say the Pledge every morning. No pressuring them, just ask if they would miss it. I'll bet dimes to dollars that most really don't care either way. This isn't the 50s, patriotism isn't running rampant like back then. Most kids just say the Pledge cause thats what you do. They don't get all warm and fuzzy inside, they just say it. So if they don't care about it and don't mean it, why are you forcing them to say it everyday?

quote Originally posted by JohnnyK: I have to walk away from the table if people are saying grace..

quote Originally posted by Patrick: That's a bit much. What's the big deal with having to stare at the floor for half a minute or so? No matter what your religious beliefs, is it so bad to be thankful for what we have?

quote Originally posted by FieroRumor: Too bad it's so hard to be thankful without having to bow before some specific deity.

I don't find it difficult to do. Are you saying you do? I don't quite follow what you're stating.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: Would you feel the same way if the Pledge read "One Nation under Satan" or "under Allah", or perhaps "under Hitler" or even "under George W. Bush" ? If you found any of them distasteful, you could just bite your tongue and be grateful, right?

Ummm... I don't get the connection between being "thankful" before a meal and this "Pledge". I'm not an American and I wasn't even commenting on the "Pledge".

quote Originally posted by JohnnyK: I don't STOP anyone from praying, but I won't do it.

That's a little different than feeling it's necessary to get up from the table if grace is being said. I don't agree with John Stricker too often, but (in the unlikely circumstance!) if you and I were guests at John's for dinner and you got up and left the table while grace was being said, I'd help John kick your ass to the curb. Is it because I share John's religious beliefs? No, I don't. However, I do know a little about showing respect. Pulling a stunt like you suggested you'd do would be a real slap in the face of your host. A total lack of respect. It's the same idea when you enter a synagogue. All men, whether they are Jewish or not, have to wear one of those little beany things on their heads. (Sorry, I don't know the name of them.) It's a religious tradition. When I went to the funeral of one of my Jewish friends, I was handed one of the "beanies" to put on. I was pleased to put it on because I knew my dead friend would've appreciated it. What would you have done in that situation, Johnny? Would you have caused a scene and refused to wear it? Would you have turned around and walked out of the synagogue, thus insulting the family of your dead friend? I think you are the one who needs to learn a little about tolerance.

quote Originally posted by JohnnyK: ... Hey, sometimes I just kick back while they are saying grace, but I will not bow my head.. Thats lack of tolerance, because I won't pray? No, thats not praying.. I don't STOP anyone from praying, but I won't do it. Apparently you're the one with the lack of tolerance for my beliefs, n'est pas? I have to pray in your home?

It sounds more like you're disrespecting your guest. There's nothing wrong with an atheist just putting their head down during a prayer to show respect for their guest, doesn't mean you have to pray or that you believe in God, it is simply a courtesy. Seems like the least you could do since they went through the trouble of making a meal for you to share. If you are confident in who you are and what you believe, this really shouldn't be a problem. Use the time to think of how thankful you should be that someone wants you around, count to the highest number you can- or your favorite color, which ever is easier...

big difference what is done at a private home [ saying grace] or a funeral or wedding
as that is a private rite and most of us would not be troubled by going along with the program

PUBLIC SCHOOL is tax supported, and students are required to attend
it is not private, and very different rules apply

why do christians go so nuts over this kind of stuff???
you can belive what ever you want BUT
you have NO RIGHT to try to make everyone else belive your fairytale
esp the trying to poison the minds of the school kids

and yes the " in god we trust" SHOULD COME OFF THE $$$
it has no place on money

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Question wonder and be wierd
are you kind?

i pledge alllegiance to the United States of America, and to the Republic. one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Maybe they could just teach the kids to hum it?

Johnny,

You don't know me. We've never met. You have no idea if I'm friendly, indifferent, or downright mean. I've met many people on this forum, probably over a hundred over the years. Many of them have been to my house, some stayed with me, and I'm willing to bet if you ask them you'll find that without exception they find me to be quite friendly, but that's beside the point.

When you behave in such a fashion by getting up and walking away while saying grace, or "kicking back", you are disrespecting me, my beliefs, and my hospitality. Regardless of what faith you are, that is rude and inappropriate. If I was in a wiccan home, for instance, and they thanked whatever God they pray to before eating, I would show them the respect and courtesy they deserve by allowing me to be a guest in their home and sit quietly, with my head bowed as an indication of that respect to THEM and their beliefs.

Somehow, somewhere, the idea that we can do what we want, when we want, with no regards or respect for others, even those acting as our hosts, has become more and more prevalant. That's a sad thing to see, IMHO, particularly when it comes from someone claiming to be so "enlightened" and "tolerant". I guess your tolerance only applies to those that agree with you.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by JohnnyK: Thats fantastic.. But you don't seem like a particularly friendly man in the first place, so I doubt I'd be having dinner at your house anyways.. But anyways.. Hey, sometimes I just kick back while they are saying grace, but I will not bow my head.. Thats lack of tolerance, because I won't pray? No, thats not praying.. I don't STOP anyone from praying, but I won't do it. Apparently you're the one with the lack of tolerance for my beliefs, n'est pas? I have to pray in your home?

quote Originally posted by Patrick: Ummm... I don't get the connection between being "thankful" before a meal and this "Pledge". I'm not an American and I wasn't even commenting on the "Pledge".

Oh, my bad. Since this was a thread about the Pledge of Allegiance, I assumed you were talking about the Pledge.

I guess it is time to pull out the old waders, cuz this is gettin deep.

HUGE difference between a funeral and a get together.. No, if I'm in a strangers home for dinner, I will not walk away, and if it's christmas or something will relatives, I usually try to stay away for some unrelated matter.. I can be thankful without a god. but I will not bow my head and pray to somethign I don't believe in. You'd feel pretty sad with yourself if you prayed to satan in my house for dinner wouldn't you?.. And once again, it's not disrespectful to YOU, but I'm not praying to someone I don't believe in. If you are eating at my house, will you pray to Allah and thank him for the food?.. I obviously know you don't believe in him.. I wouldn't take offense if you didn't pray to my god..

And patrick: Don't you ever talk to me about being disrepectful to dead friends and their families. I have almost had to ignore my belief system countless times for them.. But I am respectful about how I do everything.. I went to a church of course for his funeral, and didn't storm out. However, they also had a service that didn't mention god (Unrelated, of course I'm not going to say anything if they did!) though I'm sure the parents believe in him, although I'm not sure if my friend did. and I think they realize my viewpoint when they talk about it, but seems we have a great relationship now..

quote Originally posted by JohnnyK: And patrick: Don't you ever talk to me about being disrepectful to dead friends and their families.

I asked you what you'd do in a hypothetical situation. So, what's the problem?

quote Originally posted by JohnnyK: I have almost had to ignore my belief system countless times for them..

You "almost" had to ignore your belief system countless times? "Almost"??!!! My, that's big of you. If I was religious I'd bless you.

OK, now I'm getting worried. I don't know about what, yet, but I'm getting worried.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by Patrick: I don't agree with John Stricker too often, but (in the unlikely circumstance!) if you and I were guests at John's for dinner and you got up and left the table while grace was being said, I'd help John kick your ass to the curb. Is it because I share John's religious beliefs? No, I don't. However, I do know a little about showing respect. .