You can ignore prayer all you want. You make it sound like someone's going to be checking your lips to make sure they're moving. I asked you several posts ago what was the big deal to have to stare at the floor for half a minute while grace was being said. No, you'd rather be dramatic and have a hissy-fit and leave the table and insult your host and their family. Seems to me it's you who wants to force your beliefs on everybody else by making a big show of it.
My religious beliefs are probably not so different than your own, but I don't feel the need to shove them in people's faces. And you know what, because of that, religious people I know don't feel the need to make me feel uncomfortable either. It's called tolerance and respect, something you appear to be in short supply of.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 09-16-2005).]
That's a bit much. What's the big deal with having to stare at the floor for half a minute or so?
No matter what your religious beliefs, is it so bad to be thankful for what we have?
It's a simple matter of principle. Forcing people who aren't religious to act religious is wrong. It's what the Taliban did, what the Iranians do, and all the other cesspits in the world. I guess it boils down to, in this country, do individuals in this country have a right to choose to not be religious? Do we have that freedom, that right?
You can ignore prayer all you want. You make it sound like someone's going to be checking your lips to make sure they're moving. I asked you several posts ago what was the big deal to have to stare at the floor for half a minute while grace was being said. No, you'd rather be dramatic and have a hissy-fit and leave the table and insult your host and their family. Seems to me it's you who wants to force your beliefs on everybody else by making a big show of it.
My religious beliefs are probably not so different than your own, but I don't feel the need to shove them in people's faces. And you know what, because of that, religious people I know don't feel the need to make me feel uncomfortable either. It's called tolerance and respect, something you appear to be in short supply of.
Aww.. Trying to insult my intelligence.. Sorry buddy, I don't think thats going to work coming from you. Once your prove your are my intellectual superior, I'll listen to you. Until then, lets try to keep it civil, shall we? Try harder.
No, me not praying and keeping my head up (I already stated in a strangers house I will not leave for prayer. When it's older family, I will try to not be there when it happens) is NOT forcing my beliefs down someoens throat.. Why do you not seem to grasp this concept? Why is it so hard for you? REFRAINING from doing something is NOT forcing beliefs down someones throat.. It makes me nauseous to have to pretend to pray. I don't like it. It makes me sad and depressed to have to thank a god for what I have. NO, this does not mean I'm ungrateful. (Do you see how they are two seperate things yet??). It's not like saying "Hello" to someone I don't like. It actually makes me feel worse about myself to have to sit there and pray to something I don't believe in. I never tell people they can't say grace around me. THAT would be forcing my belief. It hits me on a level akin to that of making a devout christian minister recite satanic chants. What would he do in that situtation? "Lip sync" the words to it? And no, it's not completely different. They are both core beliefs. You may find it small and insignificant, I don't. Some people think that shaving a beard shouldn't be blasphemous and it's small and insignificant. Those people don't. I am as atheist as some are religious, so until they chant satanic rituals and say they worship the devil and then feel morally raped by it just so they can eat their food, don't say I'm being ungratious or insulting or forcing my beliefs on others. Do you understand now? It's not a small insignificant deal to me like it is to you. You sit there and you bow your head and mouth the words to something you don't believe in, thats all fine and dandy, but don't say it's insulting when I don't.
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11:17 PM
Blacktree Member
Posts: 20770 From: Central Florida Registered: Dec 2001
Forcing people who aren't religious to act religious is wrong.
So why have you quoted me? Where or when have I ever suggested that people should be forced to act "religious"? Just in case it hasn't been made clear, I am not a religious person. Sitting quietly at a table for a minute while others are saying grace doesn't seem like a big deal to me. While they are praying, I can be thankful in my own way for what I have and/or what I'm about to eat. Anyone who is offended by others saying grace at the table has some other unresolved issues.
It's kinda funny how the biggest espousers of god and religion are most times the biggest hypocrits. Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Jim Baker and Rush Limbaugh all fit that category.
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12:22 AM
Patrick Member
Posts: 38048 From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada Registered: Apr 99
Oh, I see. You can call me a "dick", but I'm the one being told to "keep it civil". Yeah, right...
quote
Originally posted by JohnnyK:
It makes me nauseous... It makes me sad and depressed... It actually makes me feel worse...
Such a sensitve lad...
quote
Originally posted by JohnnyK:
You sit there and you bow your head and mouth the words to something you don't believe in, thats all fine and dandy...
Excuse me while I bang the side of my computer. There seems to be a problem with how my posts are being transmitted to Ontario. I typed out that you could just stare at the floor for half a minute during grace, and somehow my post has appeared on your monitor stating you should "bow your head and mouth the words to something you don't believe in". That's simply amazing.
quote
Originally posted by JohnnyK:
Why do you not seem to grasp this concept? Why is it so hard for you? Do you understand now?
Yes, I understand it's pointless trying to reason with you.
I don't know which is worse, debating religion with you or with Ken Wittlief. (Whatever happened to Ken anyway?)
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12:35 AM
sostock Member
Posts: 5907 From: Grain Valley, MO Registered: May 2005
sorry guys, anyone see the irony "aboot" two Canadians arguing over the US pledge of allegiance? i think that was the topic of this thread right?
Heh heh, sorry Yank, but I made it clear in an earlier post that my comments had nothing to do with the "Pledge". You know how these threads twist and turn.
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12:45 AM
sostock Member
Posts: 5907 From: Grain Valley, MO Registered: May 2005
...but hey down here most people think British Columbia is England's version of the space shuttle program!
Ha, I hadn't heard that one before. I have heard it said though that British Columbia is located somewhere down around French Guiana in Central/South America.
I tried to explain it to you, and you just don't understand. Some people have convictions.. Some like mine, others religious.. You apparently have none. So how about from now, you just don't reply to me, or imply a message towards me? Do you understand that at least (the implying towards me, I think you'll have a problem with)? I understand you need to have the last word, so lets hear it.. Perhaps something attempting to be derogatory? That'd be refreshing..
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02:53 AM
Patrick Member
Posts: 38048 From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada Registered: Apr 99
Originally posted by doublec4: My point is that the elimination of the Pledge of Allegiance may be another step to weakening the patriotism of your country. It may not seem like a big deal right now, but things add up and over time it all takes its toll. One thing I admire about the USA is the patriotism of its people, and I'd hate to see it fade.
Weaken patriotrism or allow people to decide for themselves what patriotism is? I am a very patiotic person yet I hate... I repeat... I hate this government with a burning passion. I fly the flag every day, I believe in the Constitution with acception of recent interpitations and amendments. This is allegidly a "free county." If that is true then let the children of this country decide for themselves who or what they should "pledge their allegiance" to. I believe it's better to let you be the parent and decide for them in the privacy of your own home but definatly not in public.
It's about time the people wrested some personal freedoms from this oppresive government of ours and I can't express how happy it makes me. It's small victories like this that make me proud to be an American.
"God creates dinasaur, God kills Dinasaur, God creates man, man kills god, . . . "
I'm not forcing anyone to believe in God but I just don't believe this massive 'Removal of God" movement can be positive in any way. God represents a moral responsibility to others as well as society. When thats gone, I can't even imagine where things will go. Thats not to say that you can't have those two characteristics with out god, but a majority of people will have little to affiliate themselves with them.
"God creates dinasaur, God kills Dinasaur, God creates man, man kills god, . . . "
I'm not forcing anyone to believe in God but I just don't believe this massive 'Removal of God" movement can be positive in any way. God represents a moral responsibility to others as well as society. When thats gone, I can't even imagine where things will go. Thats not to say that you can't have those two characteristics with out god, but a majority of people will have little to affiliate themselves with them.
As I've said before, I strongly don't believe in god, and I've never caused harm to anyone and have too much empathy.. It's not cause I'm afraid of going to hell, it's just.. who I am.. Hell, it's usually the ones who believe in god on this board who are always talking about killing people, shooting people for stealing car stereos, turning foreign countries into parking lots, etc, etc..
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12:34 PM
Patrick Member
Posts: 38048 From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada Registered: Apr 99
Originally posted by JohnnyK: Hell, it's usually the ones who believe in god on this board who are always talking about killing people, shooting people for stealing car stereos, turning foreign countries into parking lots, etc, etc..
Hell, it's usually the ones who believe in god on this board who are always talking about killing people, shooting people for stealing car stereos, turning foreign countries into parking lots, etc, etc..
Truer words have never been spoken.
[This message has been edited by Unrivaled (edited 09-16-2005).]
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04:12 PM
Scott-Wa Member
Posts: 5392 From: Tacoma, WA, USA Registered: Mar 2002
Not only that... it's the religous leaders espousing killing foreign leaders.
A belief in god does not induce any morality, it gives a group a sense of superiority that allows them to trounce anyone that doesn't believe the same. Islam is steeped in this at the moment, the Koran does not allow a moslem to harm another moslem, so they just declare each other heretics and slaughter each other in the name of Allah. Same goes for people of other faiths, Christians slaughtered most of the inhabitants of South America in the name of god and country. The Holy Wars were about religonous leaders, supposedly the most pious people with the highest morales on the planet, committing wholesale slaughter for expansion of their lands at the expense of someone else based on those others being heathens. Still works in Ireland, protestants vs. catholics... not one of us so kill them...
And the leaders of most faiths are either egging them on or explaining it away that they don't condone it but they understand it.
Kill them all, let god sort it out... but wait, there is no god or if there is he's a 5 year old with a magnifying glass and we are ants on a sidewalk.
It's true.. Look for a thread that deals with such an issue.. Abortion is wrong, but shooting someone for stealing a car radio (?!) is right.. I'm sure if bread was stolen, they'd say "Shoot them. They didn't work for it".. Look up a religious thread.. Find those who claim to be religious, then follow other threads.. It's amazing what you'll find.. Hypocrisy is entertaining, if I thought they were kidding..
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05:10 PM
Blacktree Member
Posts: 20770 From: Central Florida Registered: Dec 2001
As usual, your assumptions, at least in my case, are dead wrong. But carry on with your delusions.
John Stricker
quote
Originally posted by JohnnyK:
It's true.. Look for a thread that deals with such an issue.. Abortion is wrong, but shooting someone for stealing a car radio (?!) is right.. I'm sure if bread was stolen, they'd say "Shoot them. They didn't work for it".. Look up a religious thread.. Find those who claim to be religious, then follow other threads.. It's amazing what you'll find.. Hypocrisy is entertaining, if I thought they were kidding..
Ummmm, exsqueeze me... I thought that the topic here was about the Pleadge of Allegiance in Public Schools? I think it would be great if everybody took a cold shower and a deep breath, maybe had a cup of tea, and relaxed a bit. Life is too short to hit each other with sticks, save it for the really bad guys.
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07:12 PM
Patrick Member
Posts: 38048 From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada Registered: Apr 99
So why have you quoted me? Where or when have I ever suggested that people should be forced to act "religious"? Just in case it hasn't been made clear, I am not a religious person. Sitting quietly at a table for a minute while others are saying grace doesn't seem like a big deal to me. While they are praying, I can be thankful in my own way for what I have and/or what I'm about to eat. Anyone who is offended by others saying grace at the table has some other unresolved issues.
Bowing your head in deference to God is a religious act. It's easy to pass as Christian, it's much harder to pass as one's self, if one is not religious. The whole point is that it is the choice of the individual in this country to decide whether or not to pay obeisance to God, any god.
You're right, it's not so much of a big deal for most people, but it's a big deal for some. How should those few who decide to stand on their principles be punished? Ostracized? Discriminated against? This country was the bastion of sex discrimination for centuries, racial discrimination for centuries, and religious discrimination for centuries. Two out of three right now.
And I quoted you because I was responding to your comment, as was my right.
"God creates dinasaur, God kills Dinasaur, God creates man, man kills god, . . . "
I'm not forcing anyone to believe in God but I just don't believe this massive 'Removal of God" movement can be positive in any way. God represents a moral responsibility to others as well as society. When thats gone, I can't even imagine where things will go. Thats not to say that you can't have those two characteristics with out god, but a majority of people will have little to affiliate themselves with them.
There is no "massive Removal of God" movement, your premise is flawed and erroneous.
There is an effort to prevent our secular government from being Christianized/Religionized because not only is that unconstitutional, it's just a plainly bad idea. The only way for this government to survive as a Christian government is to exterminate all minority religions, such as is commonly attempted in the middle east. The results will be the same, an ongoing series of civil wars between the ever-shifting religious power bases.
Is that what we really want?
Only by having a truly non-religious government can we be truly free to persue religion in our lives, for those that want to that is.
JazzMan
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11:37 PM
Sep 17th, 2005
Patrick Member
Posts: 38048 From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada Registered: Apr 99
Bowing your head in deference to God is a religious act.
And I quoted you because I was responding to your comment, as was my right.
JazzMan, it may be your "right", but let's at least get it right. Were you responding to a comment of mine, or to something that Johnny attributed to me? There's a BIG difference. Please show me where in this thread that I ever mentioned anything about "bowing" one's head.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 09-17-2005).]
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12:01 AM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
There is no "massive Removal of God" movement, your premise is flawed and erroneous.
There is an effort to prevent our secular government from being Christianized/Religionized because not only is that unconstitutional, it's just a plainly bad idea. The only way for this government to survive as a Christian government is to exterminate all minority religions, such as is commonly attempted in the middle east. The results will be the same, an ongoing series of civil wars between the ever-shifting religious power bases.
Is that what we really want?
Only by having a truly non-religious government can we be truly free to persue religion in our lives, for those that want to that is.
JazzMan
I have to agree with JazzMan, here. We disagree on a lot of political topics, but I completely agree here.
There is no "massive Removal of God" movement, your premise is flawed and erroneous.
There is an effort to prevent our secular government from being Christianized/Religionized because not only is that unconstitutional, it's just a plainly bad idea. The only way for this government to survive as a Christian government is to exterminate all minority religions, such as is commonly attempted in the middle east. The results will be the same, an ongoing series of civil wars between the ever-shifting religious power bases.
Is that what we really want?
Only by having a truly non-religious government can we be truly free to persue religion in our lives, for those that want to that is.
JazzMan
I agree also.
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02:10 AM
sostock Member
Posts: 5907 From: Grain Valley, MO Registered: May 2005
