quote Originally posted by Patrick: JazzMan, it may be your "right", but let's at least get it right. Were you responding to a comment of mine, or to something that Johnny attributed to me? There's a BIG difference. Please show me where in this thread that I ever mentioned anything about "bowing" one's head.

"That's a bit much. What's the big deal with having to stare at the floor for half a minute or so?

No matter what your religious beliefs, is it so bad to be thankful for what we have?"

Staring at the floor is different than bowing?

quote Originally posted by Patrick: JazzMan, it may be your "right", but let's at least get it right. Were you responding to a comment of mine, or to something that Johnny attributed to me? There's a BIG difference. Please show me where in this thread that I ever mentioned anything about "bowing" one's head.

The post I referred to, and quoted, was written by you at 09-15-2005 02:09 AM in this thread. In it, you stated clearly: "That's a bit much. What's the big deal with having to stare at the floor for half a minute or so? No matter what your religious beliefs, is it so bad to be thankful for what we have?"

In your post in this thread at 09-15-2005 05:57 PM you even quoted yourself: "Originally posted by Patrick: That's a bit much. What's the big deal with having to stare at the floor for half a minute or so? No matter what your religious beliefs, is it so bad to be thankful for what we have?"

Later, in your post in this thread at 09-15-2005 09:10 PM you also referenced your original post: "I asked you several posts ago what was the big deal to have to stare at the floor for half a minute while grace was being said."

How do you stare at the floor without bowing your head?

The context was while performing a religious act, saying grace. Bowing one's head while performing religious acts is bowing one's head before God. You assert that it's no big deal for a non-religous person to pretend to perform a religious act (staring at the floor, which requires bowing one's head) during a religious act. It's clear what you meant, and it's clear what you said. You even say we should "be thankful". To whom should we be thankful? God? If a person is not religious, there's no God to be thankful too, so yet again a person being thankful in a shared religious act is pretending.

So, as you can see, I have provided three different sources to prove what you said, and then I very clearly (I hope) have spelled out what I had to say about your comment.

I got it right.

JazzMan

quote Originally posted by RandomTask: "God creates dinasaur, God kills Dinasaur, God creates man, man kills god, . . . " I'm not forcing anyone to believe in God but I just don't believe this massive 'Removal of God" movement can be positive in any way. God represents a moral responsibility to others as well as society. When thats gone, I can't even imagine where things will go. Thats not to say that you can't have those two characteristics with out god, but a majority of people will have little to affiliate themselves with them.

I donot know what killed the dino's
but I do KNOW man creates GOD, all of them

and nobody is try to Remove GOD from your or anyones life
WE ARE TRYING TO GET RELIGION OUT OF THE GOVERMENT
if you want MY goverment based on YOUR GOD
then we have a BIG PROBLEM

morals and religion are two very diffent things
most religions are amoral or immoral esp when dealing will unbelivers
and have a long history of bad goverments based on religion

please name one good goverment system based on religion ever anywhere?????????????

------------------
Question wonder and be wierd
are you kind?

quote Originally posted by ray b: I donot know what killed the dino's but I do KNOW man creates GOD, all of them and nobody is try to Remove GOD from your or anyones life WE ARE TRYING TO GET RELIGION OUT OF THE GOVERMENT if you want MY goverment based on YOUR GOD then we have a BIG PROBLEM morals and religion are two very diffent things most religions are amoral or immoral esp when dealing will unbelivers and have a long history of bad goverments based on religion please name one good goverment system based on religion ever anywhere?????????????

The problem is if god is projected by some into govenment then one has to decide which god. Very difficult in a diverse society like the U.S. Then you have to answer the question how does adding god into government represent those that do not believe? That's why it is better to keep the government secular while allowing everyone to worship or not as they see fit. BTW isnt that's what the constitution says anyway?

[This message has been edited by Unrivaled (edited 09-17-2005).]

quote Originally posted by ray b: but I do KNOW man creates GOD, all of them

An athiest bevet?

And while we fight over this and other non issues (like "intelligent design"), the kids in Singapore, India, and China are learning math and science.
Let's teach knowledge in school and leave indoctrination into the faith of your choice at home.

[This message has been edited by NEPTUNE (edited 09-17-2005).]

quote Originally posted by JohnnyK: Staring at the floor is different than bowing?

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: (staring at the floor, which requires bowing one's head) How do you stare at the floor without bowing your head?

Do the two of you have arthritis of the eyeballs? Are you both trying to tell me you can't see the floor without bowing your heads? I had no idea the two of you were so incapacitated.

My suggestion to "stare at the floor" was simply meant as something to do quietly while the others said grace. If there's something wrong with the mobilty of your eyes, then perhaps look straight across the table at the chest of your hostess instead.

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: You even say we should "be thankful". To whom should we be thankful? God? If a person is not religious, there's no God to be thankful too, so yet again a person being thankful in a shared religious act is pretending.

That goes beyond being ridiculous. Are you trying to tell me it is not possible to be "thankful" without having to thank "God"? Unbelieveable, just unbelieveable...

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: It's clear what you meant, and it's clear what you said.

For someone such as you who so strongly professes freedom of beliefs for all, it's incredibly ironic that you are trying to tell me what I meant. Forgive me, but I believe I'm a better judge in this particular situation.

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: I got it right.

JazzMan, you got it so wrong that I am honestly appalled. It disappoints me (because I've respected you in these forums) that you've put so much energy into trying to tell me what I meant when I've repeatedly stated otherwise.

I am not a Christian. I go to churches only for weddings and funerals. At my age (50), it's now by far mostly for funerals. I can't stand hard-core Christians. They make my skin crawl. However, during the course of this thread, I now realize I can't stand extemists at either end of the religious (or for that matter, political) spectrum.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 09-17-2005).]

quote Patrick said: My suggestion to "stare at the floor" was simply meant as something to do quietly while the others said grace. If there's something wrong with the mobilty of your eyes, then perhaps look straight across the table at the chest of your hostess instead.

<sarcasm>
Oh, so we can't look at her butt instead? You're telling us what part of a woman we can look at now? You Nazi !!!

And what about the gay guys? Now they're being forced to stare at a woman. That's discriminatory!
</sarcasm>

On a more serious note, I don't like extremists of any type. I find them "extremely" annoying.

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 09-17-2005).]

quote Originally posted by Blacktree: <sarcasm> Oh, so we can't look at her butt instead? You're telling us what part of a woman we can look at now? You Nazi !!! And what about the gay guys? Now they're being forced to stare at a woman. That's discriminatory! </sarcasm>

Hey, I covered that problem by stating, "then perhaps look straight across the table..."

jstrickler: Never answered the question though. Would you pray to Satan in my home? Or thank allah for the food on the table? Me thinks you wouldn't be able to sit at the table while I gave thanks to the dark lord.

No, I wouldn't. But as I said before, if I were in the home of a Wiccan, or whatever, and they stopped to say grace, I would sit there, quietly and respectfully. So what's the problem? Seems I'm more tolerant on this than you are. I would presume since I was a guest in their home that they knew my beliefs already and I knew theirs.

John Stricker

OH, and BTW, I did answer it when I made an earlier reference to being at a Wiccan's table, you just chose not to accept it I guess, more intolerance.

Went back and looked it up on Page 2 since both you and Jazzman seem to be reading with blinders on

quote Originally posted by jstricker: Johnny, You don't know me. We've never met. You have no idea if I'm friendly, indifferent, or downright mean. I've met many people on this forum, probably over a hundred over the years. Many of them have been to my house, some stayed with me, and I'm willing to bet if you ask them you'll find that without exception they find me to be quite friendly, but that's beside the point. When you behave in such a fashion by getting up and walking away while saying grace, or "kicking back", you are disrespecting me, my beliefs, and my hospitality. Regardless of what faith you are, that is rude and inappropriate. If I was in a wiccan home, for instance, and they thanked whatever God they pray to before eating, I would show them the respect and courtesy they deserve by allowing me to be a guest in their home and sit quietly, with my head bowed as an indication of that respect to THEM and their beliefs. Somehow, somewhere, the idea that we can do what we want, when we want, with no regards or respect for others, even those acting as our hosts, has become more and more prevalant. That's a sad thing to see, IMHO, particularly when it comes from someone claiming to be so "enlightened" and "tolerant". I guess your tolerance only applies to those that agree with you. John Stricker

quote Originally posted by JohnnyK: jstrickler: Never answered the question though. Would you pray to Satan in my home? Or thank allah for the food on the table? Me thinks you wouldn't be able to sit at the table while I gave thanks to the dark lord.

[This message has been edited by jstricker (edited 09-17-2005).]

quote Originally posted by JohnnyK: jstrickler: Never answered the question though. Would you pray to Satan in my home? Or thank allah for the food on the table? Me thinks you wouldn't be able to sit at the table while I gave thanks to the dark lord.

You got that right. He respects all religions as long as they're his, but that's what religion is all about. Proof of that is to simply look around the world where just about every war, civil or otherwise, is tied one way or another to some sort of religion. Rwanda? Religion. Israel/Arabs? Religion. Northern Ireland? Religion. Serbia? Religion. Iraq now? Suuni vs. Shiite vs. other extremist flavors of Islam. Religion. Hell, in this country Baptists were routinely beaten and killed in the 1600's in the colonies. Quakers, remember them? Killed in the early days of the colonies. It goes on and on and on, and on.

And the big three religions all call their deity God? So what, there are hundreds of religions around the world including here, many are polytheistic and don't refer to their deity(s) as God. Is this country only going to allow the big three in and exclude the others? Who gets to decide that? What recourse do you have if you're not happy with the decision?

What a sticky wicket this is...

JazzMan

Jazzman,

You don't know me nearly as well as you think you do. See the above post to begin with. Gosh, all the Quakers were killed, I better tell my wife she's dead since here family are in the Quaker church.

You know so little but talk so much.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: You got that right. He respects all religions as long as they're his, but that's what religion is all about. Proof of that is to simply look around the world where just about every war, civil or otherwise, is tied one way or another to some sort of religion. Rwanda? Religion. Israel/Arabs? Religion. Northern Ireland? Religion. Serbia? Religion. Iraq now? Suuni vs. Shiite vs. other extremist flavors of Islam. Religion. Hell, in this country Baptists were routinely beaten and killed in the 1600's in the colonies. Quakers, remember them? Killed in the early days of the colonies. It goes on and on and on, and on. And the big three religions all call their deity God? So what, there are hundreds of religions around the world including here, many are polytheistic and don't refer to their deity(s) as God. Is this country only going to allow the big three in and exclude the others? Who gets to decide that? What recourse do you have if you're not happy with the decision? What a sticky wicket this is... JazzMan

quote Originally posted by jstricker: No, I wouldn't. But as I said before, if I were in the home of a Wiccan, or whatever, and they stopped to say grace, I would sit there, quietly and respectfully. So what's the problem? Seems I'm more tolerant on this than you are. I would presume since I was a guest in their home that they knew my beliefs already and I knew theirs. John Stricker OH, and BTW, I did answer it when I made an earlier reference to being at a Wiccan's table, you just chose not to accept it I guess, more intolerance. Went back and looked it up on Page 2 since both you and Jazzman seem to be reading with blinders on

so why wiccan but not satan? Because it goes against your beliefs, right? Honestly, what would you do if we did that at my table.. You would walk, correct? Now what would you do with Allah.. He's not your god, and you disagree with his teachings.. You might not walk away, but what would you do? Curiosity is all..

quote Originally posted by jstricker: Jazzman, You don't know me nearly as well as you think you do. See the above post to begin with. Gosh, all the Quakers were killed, I better tell my wife she's dead since here family are in the Quaker church. You know so little but talk so much. John Stricker

I didn't say all Quakers were killed, you dolt, though I am sorry that I didn't hyper-grammar my writings to keep you from using your finely-honed writing skills to sling yet another insult my way.

And as far as knowing you, I've met you and once had respect for you, but I've seen the way you use your excellent writing skills to attack people on the forum, myself included. What I know about you now is what you write here on the forum, and you come across as a bully and thug in a literary mode. You've systematically attacked me and others on the forum who disagree with your views. You continually slip in barbs and insults about me, little primes designed solely to tear down my reputation here.

That's just the way you are, I guess.

And my opinion of your views on other religions? I think that you would surely have dinner with a muslim or other non-Christian, but I think, in my opinion, that your reasons for doing so would be more for appearances than anything else. I think you have a fundamental lack of respect or care about any religion beyond your own family of religions.

JazzMan

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: And as far as knowing you, I've met you and once had respect for you, but I've seen the way you use your excellent writing skills to attack people on the forum, myself included. What I know about you now is what you write here on the forum, and you come across as a bully and thug in a literary mode. You've systematically attacked me and others on the forum who disagree with your views. You continually slip in barbs and insults about me, little primes designed solely to tear down my reputation here. JazzMan

Holy crap. jstricker is one of the most even-handed, patient and non-confrontational people here in O/T. He has FAR more patience for people like you than I do. You must have a persecution complex. (as in "WTF?")

[This message has been edited by fierobear (edited 09-17-2005).]

quote Originally posted by fierobear: Holy crap. jstricker is one of the most even-handed, patient and non-confrontational people here in O/T. He has FAR more patience for people like you than I do. You must have a persecution complex. (as in "WTF?")

Found those posts of mine where I say I'm a communist or socialist yet there, Fierobear? Or some other factual evidence to sustain your continual assertations that I'm one or the other?

JazzMan

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: Found those posts of mine where I say I'm a communist or socialist yet there, Fierobear? Or some other factual evidence to sustain your continual assertations that I'm one or the other? JazzMan

I just got home about an hour ago from a 2100 mile, 6 day drive. Again, you don't seem to travel much, so I don't expect you to understand.

Don't worry...I'll get to it.

quote Originally posted by fierobear: I just got home about an hour ago from a 2100 mile, 6 day drive. Again, you don't seem to travel much, so I don't expect you to understand. Don't worry...I'll get to it.

Meanwhile back at stately Wayne manor............

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: Meanwhile back at stately Wayne manor............

Yeah.. Thats the image I get when I think of a high roller..

Are you truly this dense? I've never thought you were, but your display in this thread is getting tiresome. Once more for the mentally challenged (and for the third time) "If I was in a wiccan home, for instance". For Instance. Read it. Read it again. My choice of Wiccan was an example. I've been in Muslim homes and did the same thing. Never been in a satanist home, but if I was I'd do the same thing. Why? Because I'm showing respect TO MY HOST. I don't have to believe the same thing or in the same way as somebody to respect them. That's where you and I differ.

Now, do you want me to get some Crayons and draw you a picture if you're still too dense to understand?

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by JohnnyK: so why wiccan but not satan? Because it goes against your beliefs, right? Honestly, what would you do if we did that at my table.. You would walk, correct? Now what would you do with Allah.. He's not your god, and you disagree with his teachings.. You might not walk away, but what would you do? Curiosity is all..

quote Originally posted by ray b: please name one good goverment system based on religion ever anywhere?????????????

Since you asked.....................the government of my home and my life. But I know that is not what you meant. I can answer the United States Government. At least it started out that way and is still the best government in the world today. It started with the free will of the people just as God gave man free will. The freedom of reigion is also a freedom from religion, if someone so believes that way.
Look early in the thread. I do not think "under God belongs in the pledge nor do I think anyone should be forced to even cite the pledge. It should come from one's heart. Seems alot like having to say "heil Hitler".

quote Originally posted by cliffw: please name one good goverment system based on non-religion ever anywhere?????????????

Roman Empire

quote Originally posted by cliffw: please name one good goverment system based on non-religion ever anywhere?????????????

the basic idea of seperation of church and state, despite exceptions and subversions,
makes our system non-religious , mostly
but the current push by BuSh2 and the rightwing christians threatens to change that
to a faith based system with goverment support and funding of certian favored religions and subcults

we have had many laws based on religions [BLUE LAWS] claimed needs
most have been overturned in the last 50 years

no goverment can be fair and just and religious
even England has a history of wars and persicutions over state religion

I just find it very strange the same rightwing christians
who claim to support GOD IN GOVERMENT
donot see how bad it has allways turned out in other places and times
when ever a religious movement gets control of a goverment
from Cromwell's roundheads to the tali-ban it is NEVER a good result

and our poor threatened christian's only have CONTROL
of the whitehouse, congress, and the courts,
but claim to be somehow threatened????????
by changeing two words in a school kids saying??????

------------------
Question wonder and be wierd
are you kind?

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: Meanwhile back at stately Wayne manor............

...I've got all these messages next to the Batphone!

quote Originally posted by jstricker: Are you truly this dense? I've never thought you were, but your display in this thread is getting tiresome. Once more for the mentally challenged (and for the third time) "If I was in a wiccan home, for instance". For Instance. Read it. Read it again. My choice of Wiccan was an example. I've been in Muslim homes and did the same thing. Never been in a satanist home, but if I was I'd do the same thing. Why? Because I'm showing respect TO MY HOST. I don't have to believe the same thing or in the same way as somebody to respect them. That's where you and I differ. Now, do you want me to get some Crayons and draw you a picture if you're still too dense to understand? John Stricker

I never realized you had such strong convictions.... So it wouldn't make you feel wrong to worship satan just to be polite? So where do you draw the line then?
Enhance your calm.

[This message has been edited by JohnnyK (edited 09-18-2005).]

quote Originally posted by JohnnyK: I never realized you had such strong convictions.... So it wouldn't make you feel wrong to worship satan just to be polite? So where do you draw the line then? Enhance your calm.

Wow. Talk about a wrong interpretation.

[This message has been edited by fierobear (edited 09-18-2005).]

quote Originally posted by fierobear: Wow. Talk about a wrong interpretation.

Seems to be about what he said.. He'd bow his head and go along with whatever prayer was being said.. It's very easy to be gracious to your HOST without being gracious to their god.. Sigh, arguing over fictional/invisible characters..

Because I show respect to someone that acts as my host doesn't mean I worship their god. Why is this so hard for you to understand? You're the one that talks about respecting other's beliefs and points of view, at least everyone else is supposed to, apparently it's just not a concept you've learned to grasp.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by JohnnyK: I never realized you had such strong convictions.... So it wouldn't make you feel wrong to worship satan just to be polite? So where do you draw the line then? Enhance your calm.

quote Originally posted by fierobear: BZZT! Sorry. The emperor called himself God, so I think it still involved religion.

While that helped lead it to it's eventual downfall it was not common practice for "Cesar" to call himself a god. In fact it was a very unpopular thing to do.

Though that did happen I am still correct because the government was not bassed on religion.

[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 09-18-2005).]

quote Originally posted by ray b: the basic idea of seperation of church and state, despite exceptions and subversions, makes our system non-religious , mostly but the current push by BuSh2 and the rightwing christians threatens to change that to a faith based system with goverment support and funding of certian favored religions and subcults we have had many laws based on religions [BLUE LAWS] claimed needs most have been overturned in the last 50 years no goverment can be fair and just and religious even England has a history of wars and persicutions over state religion I just find it very strange the same rightwing christians who claim to support GOD IN GOVERMENT donot see how bad it has allways turned out in other places and times when ever a religious movement gets control of a goverment from Cromwell's roundheads to the tali-ban it is NEVER a good result and our poor threatened christian's only have CONTROL of the whitehouse, congress, and the courts, but claim to be somehow threatened???????? by changeing two words in a school kids saying??????

Wouldnt it be interesting to see how christians would react to the proposition of another religion other than christianity being made a part of American government. Any bets on how they would react?

I would oppose it, just like I would oppose christianity being made A PART OF our government, which it is not.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by Unrivaled: Wouldnt it be interesting to see how christians would react to the proposition of another religion other than christianity being made a part of American government. Any bets on how they would react?

quote Originally posted by Unrivaled: Wouldnt it be interesting to see how christians would react to the proposition of another religion other than christianity being made a part of American government. Any bets on how they would react?

Oh that's an easy one to answer. There have been many instances all over the country where town councils and local governments routinely offer prayer before conveening. Then a Wiccan joins the council and asks for permission to lead one of the opening prayers - even going so far as to make it a non-denominational prayer. In all instances they were barred from participating. In all instances, they council practiced Freedom of Religion, only so far as their own religion was concerned.

There have been lawsuits about this, and typically they stop giving opening prayers rather than allow some "hethan" to defile their town council.

Here's a great example: http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/0805/21prayer.html
"I don't like it one bit," Councilman J.C. Broom, a retired furniture salesman who usually gives the invocations, said last week of the court rulings. "I feel like I have a right to pray the way I want to. When I have to pray the way someone tells me how I have to do it, I don't feel as close to the Lord. It becomes a chore. The other way, it was a privilege."

Notice he wants to have the right to pay the way HE wants to, but is oblivious to the fact that he is trying to prevent others from doing the same.

http://www.sweenytod.com/rno/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1223
"I don't think it's right with her telling the council what to do," Day told The Herald. "I think the council should be able to pray the way they want."

Willie Patterson, 60, said governments should seek spiritual counsel before making decisions.

"Jesus Christ -- that's the only name given in the Bible that you can be saved by," Patterson said. "So why not use it at council meetings. The council meeting is for people to get things together. You can't succeed at nothing without Jesus."

Nevermind the fact that Wynn, a Wiccan, was also a member of the council. Since the ruling, the town has completely ostracized her. So much for tolerance.

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 09-18-2005).]

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: While that helped lead it to it's eventual downfall it was not common practice for "Cesar" to call himself a god. In fact it was a very unpopular thing to do. Though that did happen I am still correct because the government was not bassed on religion.

Understood, thanks.

It still didn't help them not to fall, though.